Tried to design Chemist

Hey guys! I took a whack at trying to design Chemist as a healer! I'm not a Game Designer by any means and English isn't my first language so sorry for the terrible grammar.


Chemist
- Versatile Healer
- Auto attacks as ranged, wrist crossbows | Think Phantom Blade from Assassin’s Creed Unity.
- Playstyle revolves around dealing damage over time to enemies to harvest ingredients and using these ingredients to enhance potions for "Throw Potion"
- Heavily relies on the chemist’s positioning to make use of their entire kit.
- Playstyle revoles around maintaining auto attacks and dots, while positioning themselves for efficient "Throw Potion". Plays more like a "ranged dps" rather than a "caster".
- All skills except Ressurection has an instant cast time.

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Trait : Corrosive.
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Chemist's auto attacks will have a damage over time component.
All damage over time effects dealt by the chemist will have a chance to drop ingredients.
Rate of the ingredients are random, but the order of the ingredients dropping are fixed as:

Pure -> Patient -> Shell -> Tangible -> Mystical -> Repeat

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Ingredients
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- Ingredients drop in a 10 yalm radius (playable area only) around the boss.
- Chemist will need to pickup these ingredients by touching said ingredients. Ingredients will disappear after 45 seconds.
- If the ingredients are full, the ingredients will stay on the ground even if the Chemist is touching it.

Ingredients are as follows:

Pure Regeant - Boosts Cure and Damage Potency of the Potion.
Patient Regeant - Boosts Regeneration and Damage Over Time potency of the Potion
Shell Regeant - Boosts Shield Potency and Attack debuff rate of the Potion.
Tangible Regeant - Boost Physical Attack and Physical Attack vulnerability of the Potion
Mystical Regeant - Boosts Magical attack and Magical Attack vulnerability of the Potion.

- Chemist can only collect up to 5 charges of each ingredient.


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MIX
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- Ability is an OGCD. Very similar to Dancer's Technical Step.

- Upon executing Mix! All Throw Potion GCDs will be replaced with "Ingredient" Regeants.
- Pressing on a "Ingredient" Regeant will add a charge of the ingredient into the brew.
- Chemist can only use the Ingredient Regeant hotkeys and "Emergency Collect" while in "Mix Mode"
- "Mix!" ends when the Chemist activates Mix again or once Chemist has added 5 ingredients into the brew.


- Chemist can boost the effects of the potion based on the ingredients consumed by mix.
- Ingredients boost different aspects of the base potion.
- Mix! has no recast time, so Chemist can mix another batch whenever he/she wants.

Each charge of a specific ingredient will add an effect to the potion.
Effects are below for a charge:

Pure Regeant - +50 cure potency | +25 damage potency
Patient Regeant - + 15 regen potency | + 10 damage potency
Shell Regeant - + 25 potency | + 0.5% Attack debuff
Tangible Regeant - + 1% Physical Attack buff | + 0.5% Physical Attack Vuln
Mystical Regeant - + 1% Magical Attack buff | + 0.5% Magical Attack Vuln

- A maximum of 5 ingredients can be put into a single batch of potions.
- Use the ingredients to boost and add effects to the base potion.
- Base potion values:

Cure 300 potency / 200 damage
Regen 0 potency / 0 dot /30 seconds
Shield 0 potency / 0 % attack debuff
Phys damage buff 0 % / 0% phys damage vulnerability
Magical damage buff 0% / 0% magical damage vulnerability

- Upon casting mix (instant cast) or adding 5 ingredients, Chemist will have 10 stacks of brewed potion!
- Upon using Throw Potion, Chemist will throw out 1 stack of the brewed potion.
- Mixing a new batch while Chemist has a brewed potion stack will replace the current stack with 10 new stacks of brewed potion!


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THROW POTION
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Throw potion:
This is the primary way the chemist heals and dps.
On the GCD, but each Throw potion has a 15 second recast time each.
Potions being thrown depend on which potions are “loaded”.

TP: At Target-
Throws a potion directly at target. Needs a target.
Potion effects:
- 100% Cure potency | 100% damage potency
- 100% Regen Potency | 100% dot potency
- 100% Shield Potency | 100% Attack debuff
- 100% Phys damage buff | 100% phys damage vulnerability
- 100% Magic damage buff | 100% Magic damage vuln


TP: At Area-
Throws a large potion on the area, giving an area of effect on the given area. Uses an aoe
targetting indicator. Direct cures and direct damage occurs only once.
Buffs and debuffs only take effect if the target is in the area of effect. Leaving the AoE will cancel the buff or debuff.

- 80% Cure potency | 80% Damage potency
- 80% Regen Potency | 80% dot potency
- 80% shield potency | 80% attack debuff
- 80% Phys damage buff | 80% phys damage vuln
- 80% Magic damage buff | 80% magic damage vuln

TP: Intercardinals -
Throws multiple smaller potions in all four intercardinal directions of the Chemist.
Would not need an indicator. 15 yalms raidus. Allies needs to touch the potions in order
to get the benefits of the potions. Enemies needs to touch the potions in order to get the
damage. Effects stack up to a maximum of 10 times.
- Note: Think Ziggs mines from League of Legends

- 5% Cure potency | 5% Damage potency
- 3% Regen Potency | 3% dot potency
- 5% shield potency | 5% attack debuff
- 5% Phys Damage Buff | 5% physical Damage Vuln
- 5% Magic Damage Buff | 5% Magic Damage Vuln


TP: Cardinals-
The same as TP: Intercardinals, but this time, throwing in all four cardinals of the
Chemist. Effects are the same as TP: Intercardinals

TP: Close quarters-
The same as TP: Intercardinals, but this time, throwing in a small close aoe surrounding
the chemist. Effects are the same as TP: Intercardinals. Area similar to “The Ram’s
Voice”

TP: Far Reaching-
The same as TP: Intercardinals, but this time, throwing in a small far aoe surorunding
the chemist. Effects are the same as TP: Intercardinals. Area similar to “The Dragon’s
Voice”

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Utilities
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Ressurection Ability:
- The chemist needs to brew a potion to resurrect the player.
- Channeling. 4 - 12 seconds casting time depending on ingredients consumed.
- Uses a charge from each ingredient. The more ingredients consumed, the faster the cast time.
- If there are less than 3 ingredients, then ressurection will have a 12 second casting time.

Emergency Collect:
- The chemist will draw every ingredient into his/her position within a 15 yalm radius.
- Recast time 90 seconds.
- Instant cast.
- OGCD

Salvage:
- The chemist will have a chance of "salvaging" the current brewed potion stack to return 1 of each ingredient charge.
- Chance of success will lower the more stacks have been used:

1 - 10%
2 - 20%
3 - 30%
4 - 40%
5 - 50%
6 - 60%
7 - 70%
8 - 80%
9 - 90%
10 - 100%

- OGCD
- instant cast time
- No cooldown

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I'd love to know some feedback, especially if this concept can work around in all content, or if it's useless.
I can't really balance stuff, so the numbers are there to get a sense of how powerful should the heal/dps effects are.

Well, while I would need time to digest what you have written, 3 things stick out to me.

First: you are only explaining your thoughts on the mechanics of the job, not how those mechanics will be implimented, ie their skill set.

Second: what purpose does their weapon serve? You said it was an auto crossbow mounted on their wrist, but you don't give any significance to it. If the weapon was a gun for example, its significance would be the Chemist method of "throwing" their potion.

Third: while I wont say what you have is inaccurate, I think you are focusing only on one aspect of the main aspect of Chemist. Basically "Throw Potion" is more like a subset of the Chemist's primary gimmick mixing, ie the Mix command. You might want to focus on that more to open things up a bit.

As a bonus suggestion, since Alchemist is already in the game, and Chemist is very similar in name, I would suggest renaming it to Salve-Maker, which is another name often given to the job.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

As a bonus suggestion, since Alchemist is already in the game, and Chemist is very similar in name, I would suggest renaming it to Salve-Maker, which is another name often given to the job.

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Or medic, or biologist, or anything involving a healing science/pseudoscience. There's plenty of sources out there, and it doesn't need to be from Final Fantasy.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Or medic, or biologist, or anything involving a healing science/pseudoscience. There's plenty of sources out there, and it doesn't need to be from Final Fantasy.

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As a friend of mine has suggested before, Medicus. Make use of existing Garlean lore, add a Garlean job and it can be related to science and technology. There's probably a good chance we end up going to Garlemauld too. It'd be appropriate for the FFXIV world and could throw in some Chemist concepts in there. Garleans are not averse to using chemicals and poisons too. And there could even be references to cheap knock-off Hojo from SB.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

As a friend of mine has suggested before, Medicus. Make use of existing Garlean lore, add a Garlean job and it can be related to science and technology. There's probably a good chance we end up going to Garlemauld too. It'd be appropriate for the FFXIV world and could throw in some Chemist concepts in there. Garleans are not averse to using chemicals and poisons too. And there could even be references to cheap knock-off Hojo from SB.

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I'm still holding onto hope that the Black Rose actually did go off somewhere, if only as a testing site, but some unexpected attributes came with it: (1) it spreads on its own, and (2) just as their is a chance of death by aether-affixiation, there's a chance of one's means of drawing aether becoming twisted in order to survive, granting new powers. And so, instead of a simple biological bomb with no further plot opportunities, you have a magic plague worth studying both to prevent and... to exploit. Thus, we get our empiricists/augers/plague doctors, a much more ominous sort of chemist with plenty else to flesh out their kits.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

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Hey! Thanks for the feedback.

>First: you are only explaining your thoughts on the mechanics of the job, not how those mechanics will be implimented, ie their skill set.

Currently I've only thought of the core skills and playstyle of the job and am working on fleshing the kit out.
The current design that I was going for is for a healer with no cast times, requiring more on positionals to deal damage and heal allies, which is where Throw potion comes in.

>what purpose does their weapon serve? You said it was an auto crossbow mounted on their wrist, but you don't give any significance to it. If the weapon was a gun for example, its significance would be the Chemist method of "throwing" their potion.
The reason why it's a crossbow on their wrist is for auto attacks. Loading potions do change the effects on their auto attacks for this reason, the regen potions giving a DoT, and the instant healing potions increasing potency directly.

All in all, the reason why I chose the crossbow is so the Chemist can keep autoattacking while positioning themselves for "Throw potion".

I'll edit these in to original post for more clarification!

>I think you are focusing only on one aspect of the main aspect of Chemist. Basically "Throw Potion" is more like a subset of the Chemist's primary gimmick mixing, ie the Mix command. You might want to focus on that more to open things up a bit.

Yes I do agree on that. I was thinking of adapting the Mudra system or the card system for it as well. Or maybe a system where the Chemist can grab "ingredients" while he/she keeps up auto attacks, and the Chemist can choose to add or discard the ingredients.
I would need to flesh out the idea some more! I was also thinking of having the ammunition system from MCH. Each "Throw potion" consumes one "Potion Ammo" and the Chemist can choose to "recycle those potions" and mix them up with the next batch, increasing their potency.

> As a bonus suggestion, since Alchemist is already in the game, and Chemist is very similar in name, I would suggest renaming it to Salve-Maker, which is another name often given to the job.
I would need to research a bit for it. Maybe it can also be renamed "Medicus" like what Saefinn suggested!

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

As a friend of mine has suggested before, Medicus. Make use of existing Garlean lore, add a Garlean job and it can be related to science and technology. There's probably a good chance we end up going to Garlemauld too. It'd be appropriate for the FFXIV world and could throw in some Chemist concepts in there. Garleans are not averse to using chemicals and poisons too. And there could even be references to cheap knock-off Hojo from SB.

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I find that somewhat unlikely for two reasons.

One, much like Sagittarius (Archer), Signifier (Thaumaturge), Centurion (Gladiator) or Eques (Lancer), Medicus is simply the Garlean title for an existing job -- in this case, Conjurer. As Pureblooded Garleans cannot manipulate aether like the rest of the races on Hydaelyn, they take a more analytical and, dare I say, militaristic approach to classifications of magic among their conscripts.

Two, given the lore we already have, the birthplace of alchemy is Radz-at-Han on Thavnair, on top of some mentions that Ul'dahn Thaumaturges developed a chemical means to induce zombification. While neither is by any means the most likely source of a Chemist job or whathaveyou, it seems unlikely we'll end up with a Garlean job given the existence of alternatives, and the fact that even our Gunblades don't hail from Garlemald.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And so, instead of a simple biological bomb with no further plot opportunities, you have a magic plague worth studying both to prevent and... to exploit. Thus, we get our empiricists/augers/plague doctors, a much more ominous sort of chemist with plenty else to flesh out their kits.

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My objection to this is largely that it has significant overlap with Scholar -- a job not only previously dedicated to manipulating plague, but with a great deal of its lore and job questline based out of acting as a plague doctor.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I was thinking of adapting the Mudra system or the card system for it as well.

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For everyone playing the drinking game at home, feel free to take a swig.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I find that somewhat unlikely for two reasons.

One, much like Sagittarius (Archer), Signifier (Thaumaturge), Centurion (Gladiator) or Eques (Lancer), Medicus is simply the Garlean title for an existing job -- in this case, Conjurer. As Pureblooded Garleans cannot manipulate aether like the rest of the races on Hydaelyn, they take a more analytical and, dare I say, militaristic approach to classifications of magic among their conscripts.

Two, given the lore we already have, the birthplace of alchemy is Radz-at-Han on Thavnair, on top of some mentions that Ul'dahn Thaumaturges developed a chemical means to induce zombification. While neither is by any means the most likely source of a Chemist job or whathaveyou, it seems unlikely we'll end up with a Garlean job given the existence of alternatives, and the fact that even our Gunblades don't hail from Garlemald.

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That still wouldn't rule out a Garlean based healer revolving around science with a chemist-like approach. Given their lack of aether manipulation, the lore and aesthetic would be more related to science and technology, rather than magic and alchemy. But something like that can still take gameplay cues from chemist, but be a FFXIV variation.

At least its an option that works with the game's background and saves touching alchemist, which already exists.

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For everyone playing the drinking game at home, feel free to take a swig.

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I'm at work sadly, as much as I'd like to crack open a brew, might make the day go quicker. :P

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

My objection to this is largely that it has significant overlap with Scholar -- a job not only previously dedicated to manipulating plague, but with a great deal of its lore and job questline based out of acting as a plague doctor.

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And? By lore, both Conjurers and Astrologians are half a step away from Geomancers. But I don't see Scholars working with potions mid-combat, nor hexes, nor blood-infusions, nor whatever else would be possible for any iteration of the above concept.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

For everyone playing the drinking game at home, feel free to take a swig.

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Instructions unclear, already have alcohol poisoning.

Straight from google, source: https://wikidiff.com/alchemist/chemist

As nouns the difference between alchemist and chemist
is that alchemist is one who practices alchemy while chemist is a person who specializes in the science of chemistry, especially at a professional level.

there really shouldn't be a discussion if they are the same because they aren't; however their questline could have a connection, similar to how machinist was a newly created guild the alchemist guide could be the founders of the battle chemists in 6.0 after some type of discovery like perhaps garlean chemistry. I also think they should be channeled healers, alongside their mix gimmick of course.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

As nouns the difference between alchemist and chemist is that alchemist is one who practices alchemy while chemist is a person who specializes in the science of chemistry, especially at a professional level.

there really shouldn't be a discussion if they are the same because they aren't; however their questline could have a connection, similar to how machinist was a newly created guild the alchemist guide could be the founders of the battle chemists in 6.0 after some type of discovery like perhaps garlean chemistry. I also think they should be channeled healers, alongside their mix gimmick of course.

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You are not incorrect, but the main reason for the name change is because, at least in English, the name Chemist is too similar to Alchemist. Which is why the third option Salve-maker, or other names are thrown into the mix. As for the job/class connection, it's not outside of the realm of possibility, but I doubt they would connect them the way they did Musketeer and Machinist.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

That still wouldn't rule out a Garlean based healer revolving around science with a chemist-like approach. Given their lack of aether manipulation, the lore and aesthetic would be more related to science and technology, rather than magic and alchemy. But something like that can still take gameplay cues from chemist, but be a FFXIV variation.

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Then I suppose this is where I point out that the devs initially intended to release a gun-toting Chemist back in Heavensward, but couldn't figure out how to balance it, which is why we ended up with AST as a buff-flinging healer (as they'd announced a healer already) and MCH as a gun-toting technologist (since they wanted to try a new weapon-type).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And? By lore, both Conjurers and Astrologians are half a step away from Geomancers. But I don't see Scholars working with potions mid-combat, nor hexes, nor blood-infusions, nor whatever else would be possible for any iteration of the above concept.

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I mean, I could absolutely see Scholars throwing around hexes (the perfect intersection of their ol' debuff/plague focus, strategic impediments AND faerie magic), and a new caster DPS job to throw around GEO's offensive spells since WHM stepped off elements. Just sayin'.

And on the other hand, saying Chemist/Salve-maker would throw around blood-infusions is kind of a stretch, particularly if the suggestion is for a physician job who focuses on science/medicine to just... spill blood into their potions. Wildly unsanitary, particularly if they're not sure where that blood has been.
Not against a healer who uses blood-infusions -- I've suggested it before, even -- just not sure Chemist could swing it. Besides, if the lore is that Black Rose caused some people to change how they draw on aether, that would implicitly mean it would affect the player at all times, not just with the soul crystal slotted.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I mean, I could absolutely see Scholars throwing around hexes (the perfect intersection of their ol' debuff/plague focus, strategic impediments AND faerie magic), and a new caster DPS job to throw around GEO's offensive spells since WHM stepped off elements. Just sayin'.

And on the other hand, saying Chemist/Salve-maker would throw around blood-infusions is kind of a stretch, particularly if the suggestion is for a physician job who focuses on science/medicine to just... spill blood into their potions. Wildly unsanitary, particularly if they're not sure where that blood has been.
Not against a healer who uses blood-infusions -- I've suggested it before, even -- just not sure Chemist could swing it. Besides, if the lore is that Black Rose caused some people to change how they draw on aether, that would implicitly mean it would affect the player at all times, not just with the soul crystal slotted.

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You're going to have to pick one here. I'm not the Chemist/Salve-maker advocate; I'm the one who said I'd rather see potion-use subsumed into an integral part of another job (ideally one that would form organically from existing plot points) than try to run such a scant concept as a job's basis and flesh it out arbitrarily from there. So a salve-maker wouldn't use blood infusions? Fair enough. I never said they (the vanilla class concept) should. My point was that there are chemist-derivatives (auger/empirist/plague doctor/etc.) that could make potion-use the center of their kit but could spice that up into some compelling cohesion sufficient to make a truly fleshed out job -- that is to say, with the addition of other means and styles of item usage that could run in a similarly ominous/pragmatic/tactical style.

You already know my stance on WHM abandoning its elements, so let's skip to SCH and hexes and the implication that anything and everything to do with plague would have to be the sole purview of SCH (despite their in-game lore including only one study into an ancient plague).

No doubt, Hexes fits their tactical style to some extent, in that the have situationally-best graphical and material complexities that brings about some desired result, but it seems almost the opposite of their aesthetic. Hexes are usually a symbol of the occult. Bone sigils? Dreamcatchers? Warding talismans? These smack of a sort of anti-academia.

Heck, just take the sample name, empirist (another name for a "quack" doctor outside the scholarly order, back in the era of leeching and treatment of the four humors), one who believes only what they see and have experimented for, placing little to no value in history, historical solutions or the workings of the world outside their region of work -- it's the antonym of a scholar.

In the scenario I proposed, the Black Rose-affected area would be incredibly distinct zone, which may largely follow altogether different rules of magic as aether is leeched from people and plants such that latent aether becomes simultaneously stifling and unusable (to most, at least). That's why I was drawn to the irony here. You'd have a new order of 'uneducated' or 'folk-remedy' doctors whose cures have actual, proven efficacy in the surrounding confusion, be that hexes (abjuration), learning how to avoid the semi-sentient miasma of the ever-thickening latent aether (augury), counter-infections, synthesis, adaptation, or whatever else. These seemingly occult and unproven items could actually be among the few things to work in that novel and chaotic zone. Thus, you'd have a potions-centric class that is an organic fit for the continuing plotlines, complete with a focal zone that'd be plenty fun in its own right. I'd sooner take that over trying to pass off "throws potions" as a complete and compelling concept or pushing anything and everything plague related to the 'scholardom' (despite their historical reluctance to have anything to do with major plague outbreaks).

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Then I suppose this is where I point out that the devs initially intended to release a gun-toting Chemist back in Heavensward, but couldn't figure out how to balance it, which is why we ended up with AST as a buff-flinging healer (as they'd announced a healer already) and MCH as a gun-toting technologist (since they wanted to try a new weapon-type).

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And the same reasoning was used for not giving us ANY healers since. But doesn't mean we can't ask for one. They've consistently struggled with healer balance, so I expect this is a line we will keep on getting when asking for anything we want. And I expect it is why we got a load of healer changes we hate... And they are still not balanced.
But fun > balance. Perhaps SE will one day accept that and worry less about fine tuning and accept a middle ground.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Aight, so my honest perspective on this: I agree that potion use is, on its own, not substantial enough to form an entire job -- not to mention that we already have potions, and making a job based entirely out of instant healing is wildly imbalanced. I come into Chemist-based threads with a salt brick and a degree of cynicism, but as an old friend said, "I genuinely had an interest... provided s/he could [deliver]."
So, in that regard, we're on the same page.

Tangentially, I believe that Scholar is somewhat disorganized and disjointed, given that it combines many themes unevenly. It's ostensibly a tactician but this manifests largely in a singular debuff and one or two supportive skills; it's a field medic, but specializes in barriers; it's an academic healer, but primarily uses the summoning of faeries and angels to heal, and never expounds on how its magic works; it's a plague doctor, but largely only in its quests. As you said with your discussion of Academia and educated doctors, I believe that Scholar should be the healer that best exemplifies the use of magically-enhanced and -assisted medical practices, including anatomy, biology, and yes, even chemistry, while using those same studies of magic and medicine in addition to its tactical knowledge to apply pressure to foes and exploit their weaknesses. This would be in contrast to White Mage's role as a shamanistic or druidic healer (a semi-classical white witch, as it were) and Astrologian's as an oracle and manipulator of fate/time.
This is, of course, not really how the job presently manifests -- particularly due to the faerie being somewhat out of place to the theme, despite being seemingly the core of the job's design, in addition to removal of skills like Leeches and Miasma, and a lack of general discussion on what its magic actually is (though it uses skills themed after dark magic to attack) -- and while I would love to discuss that at length, that's a topic for another thread.
This puts me at two minds with regards to Scholar: First that its themes, in its present state, are nebulous, and until we know what it actually is meant to be aside from "faerie master" and how its magic works, nothing under "I heal people with science and/or sci-magic" can be written off as potential advancement, meaning a future healer should probably take a wide berth around that theme. Second, that its themes should be more clear cut so we can free up thematic space for another healer in that field, which would entail a substantial rework -- which is again, a big discussion for another thread.

So let's go back to your concept. Since you already know my stance on an occult healer (particularly one whose style involves hexes, drain effects, and augmenting its patients), I'll hold my own advocacy and approach this without agenda.
You're discussing a job that, by contrast to other suggestions in this thread, simultaneously would have no formalized concept of science or medicine and instead uses folk remedies bolstered by an unnatural ability obtained from victims of exposure to Black Rose... but also studies a plague nobody else understands, enough to be the prime authority on its applications and replicate its effects in a manner that its use isn't harmful to themselves (and even lacks the "reluctance" to weaponize it), and utilizes chemistry -- not just "eye of newt and toe of frog" brewery, but processes like "synthesis, adaptation, or whatever else"?
Doesn't that seem somewhat contradictory? I get that historical plague doctors didn't always know how the plagues worked or why certain treatments helped (which more often worked to their detriment than their favor, since they often failed to contain the spread or misattributed causes as a result), but such a mindset seems out of place in Eorzea upon critical examination.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

And the same reasoning was used for not giving us ANY healers since.

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... no? I literally just explained their response to "We can't figure out how to balance Chemist internally as a healer" was to introduce an alternative healer.

The fact they haven't introduced any healers since came later, and is due to separate balance considerations -- namely that the existing three are imbalanced against each other and they have concerns about tossing a fourth into the mix while this persists, in addition to lack of options in other roles like ranged and casters.
I mean c'mon, it's only been two expansions since the last healer, they release 2 per (Heavensward being, again, a unique case 'cuz their plans for just two got screwy) and there's 5 roles. Someone had to draw the short straw.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

... no? I literally just explained their response to "We can't figure out how to balance Chemist internally as a healer" was to introduce an alternative healer.

The fact they haven't introduced any healers since came later, and is due to separate balance considerations -- namely that the existing three are imbalanced against each other and they have concerns about tossing a fourth into the mix while this persists, in addition to lack of options in other roles like ranged and casters.
I mean c'mon, it's only been two expansions since the last healer, they release 2 per (Heavensward being, again, a unique case 'cuz their plans for just two got screwy) and there's 5 roles. Someone had to draw the short straw.

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They didn't add Chemist due to balance concerns, they said they didn't add a 4th healer because of balance concerns. Arguably that is the same reason in broad terms, just how balance is affected is different, first was because they couldn't balance it with the relationship with SCH and WHM and now its because they can't balance any of them and still haven't managed to do so. AST was designed with the relationship SCH and WHM had in 2.0, but even as early as HW that dynamic changed, and three haven't been well balanced. The most balanced healers have been is in ARR. How healers work together in relation to encounters is different to how it was in ARR, hence whenever I've suggested SCH changes I've tended to say "an evolution of what it was like to play in 2.0" rather than exactly what it was like in 2.0, because I realise the game has evolved since then.

So it would not necessarily be bad for them to revisit the idea, particularly if it is the kind of job people want, as chemist is one that keeps coming up. We aren't privy to the details of exactly why they couldnt get the balance to work when making HW or if it is something that would be more achievable now. There are multiple ways a chemist could be designed to fulfill that job Fantasy, the method they went for might have been where they struggled and worked better repurposed as a DPS as MCH. It doesn't necessarily mean the entire idea is ruled out either.

And honestly I think they'll continue to struggle with balance. But I see no harm in still making suggestions because who knows what they could make work. Times have also changed since HW. Personally, I'd be okay with them being a little off balance if it meant I was able to enjoy my role and that my role was not gimp for content. I argue that the fine tuning of balance really only affects the top percentile, again, as long as they're not gimp.

And really there's only 3 roles, just there's 3 different types of 1 of those roles. And I don't recall moaning that we didn't get a 4th healer this time around, this thread is a suggestion of a 4th healer and I gave a suggestion of a flavour of it. - shrugs-

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Then I suppose this is where I point out that the devs initially intended to release a gun-toting Chemist back in Heavensward, but couldn't figure out how to balance it, which is why we ended up with AST as a buff-flinging healer (as they'd announced a healer already) and MCH as a gun-toting technologist (since they wanted to try a new weapon-type).

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I should have read the interview before taking your word for granted, I read the section where they talked about AST. Yoshi P talked lore points, they had considered an item wielder like chemist, but found Astrologians were more widespread in Ishgard and felt it was appropriate, they also considered "could they hold a gun?" and then thought reading the stars was much more appropriate.

I saw another bit where they talked about balance, but they talked more about DPS roles and I didn't see AST or Chemist mentioned.

What's also interesting from that interview is that back then, their goal was to make it so you can do the content with your roles, rather than design new jobs to fix balance issues. I agree with the approach, though it feels they have since deviated from it at present.

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Of course depending on the players some may say “Oh the Ninja is better or the Monk is better” but we made it so that you should be able to beat the content with the assigned roles. We never thought of adding these new jobs as a way to fix any sort of balance issue. With the introduction of a new job our goal is to provide a wider range of game play experience as well as a wider range of options you can use during combat. With the three new jobs we’re adding how they play differs a lot from the existing ten jobs we have and that’s how it’s intended to be made.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

info regarding SCH that would of made this post really long if I left it in as it was.

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Okay, this ummm, semi confused me, since while some things aren't inaccurate, I think you might have some information misplaced.

First to start, SCH is a combat medic, but not how you think it is. Because of our modern interpretations of things, we tend to have a specific image in mind when thinking about certain subjects. This applies to the idea of a combat medic as well. If you were to think of one, you'd picture a doctor who is able to hold there own in a fight. But you are thinking in modern times, with modern tools. You have to remember that in the world of 14, technology isn't the same as it is for us. SCH is a combat medic in the current setting, since magic exists, a Chemist would be closer to a more modern interpretations. Admittedly though, since this is a game all healers have to be able to fight back as needed.

Another thing to remember is what their skills actually mean, many meanings get lost in other languages. To start with, almost everything they do is related to poisons, heals and attacks, as that is something done in the real world, injecting toxins into our bodies to either heal ourselves or cause injury to others. As an example Art of War in Japanese is Poisoning Art, Leeches was an old method of "purifying" the body, and Physick is an old term for a laxative. As for some other skills, Adloquium is Encouragement Plan(which is what Adlo means in Latin) Succor is morale lifting plan, the Galvanize effect is encouragement in Japanese, and Galvanize itself means both to shield and encourage. As well as the rest of their non-fairy based skills which deal with tactical measures, often being a translation of the original Japanese in an easier to understand/cool sounding formate; why say Far Seeing Plan when you can say Excogitation. Also, here is something I wrote a while back about the Broil line of spells

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Yeah, Broil in Japanese is 気炎法(kienho), which is a combination of the kanji for spirit, flame, and method/act (like the act of doing something). But the first two combine to make the word 気炎(kien) which means High spirits/big talk. So the transtalion for 気炎法 could be read as either a literal transtalion Spirit Flame Art, or Flamboyant Speech, the later of which fits with SCH's motif, but the former sounds like an attack, so it's a play on words in Japanese. They were able to do this in English too by using the word embroil, which means bringing someone into conflict, usually through speech. They were even able to keep the "flame" aspect, which is probably why the animation looks fiery.

Now in English they just change the number, but in Japanese they change the first kanji, with Broil II being 魔炎法(maenho), and Broil III being 死炎法(shienho) with the kanji for spirit replaced with demon and death respectively. Unfortunately, 魔炎 and 死炎 aren't words on their own, but the series follows the same logic as most spells, were they change the ending (fire, fire, firaga, firaja), but in this case it's the first character that changes not the last. So it helps establish a theme, like your talks are getting more aggressive.

Funny thing, 炎(En) can also mean inflammation, and is used in several medical terms as well. That's why Japanese wordplay is so ammusing.

And yeah Ruin still fits but since it's more engrained in SMN I wish they'd fix it, it seems odd SCH having an Arcanist leftover.

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I'm not saying that SCHs lore is as solid as it once was, especially as expansions come and go. But SCH for the most part, lore-wise, is still as it was, a post-modern combat medic. The main reason it's lore might be a bit confusing is because it's still tied to Arcanist and by proxy Summoner lore, so the overlap brings confusion.

Also to answer a question about the faerie. The faeries are tools, think medical tool. They are just a construct to aid in healing while on the battlefield while the SCH is creating tactics. There is nothing more than that. They don't have a big lore dump like Egis and such, they were just tools created to help in battle. Sentient tools, but still tools.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Tangentially...
This puts me at two minds with regards to Scholar...

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Agreed on these points. I just feel that the distance indicated here allows plentiful berth for SCH's future advancements. It's not a matter of principle -- taking opportunities, where presented, for new jobs over conserving them for old jobs' advancements -- either; after all, I still think Conjurer would fully and compellingly eclipse Geomancer, or at least provide a base job for it, provided that the devs were ever willing to separate job-experience progression past their branching points. This is simply one where I feel the difference in techniques and alleged purpose are sufficient, and differences in lore, style, mood, and aesthetic are more than sufficient, to warrant something separate from Scholar. I'm all for improving upon Scholar and finally fleshing out its identity as more than just differently flavored approaches to a generic healer kit. I just don't think it needs so much space here that chemist-derivatives or the like must be shelved indefinitely until those additions are complete.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

So let's go back to your concept. Since you already know my stance on an occult healer (particularly one whose style involves hexes, drain effects, and augmenting its patients), I'll hold my own advocacy and approach this without agenda.
You're discussing a job that, by contrast to other suggestions in this thread, simultaneously would have no formalized concept of science or medicine and instead uses folk remedies bolstered by an unnatural ability obtained from victims of exposure to Black Rose... but also studies a plague nobody else understands, enough to be the prime authority on its applications and replicate its effects in a manner that its use isn't harmful to themselves (and even lacks the "reluctance" to weaponize it), and utilizes chemistry -- not just "eye of newt and toe of frog" brewery, but processes like "synthesis, adaptation, or whatever else"?

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Yes. The idea is that some may have some education in Sharlayan, Uldahn, or whatever other arts, but the explanations available with any degree of proximity from those studies of magic are insufficient for the new circumstances, while older, more occult solutions have, oddly enough, seen real value -- leading to an altogether bizarre environment for study. So, some will have no readily applicable formal education, and thus take new paths. Others, perhaps even the majority due to the more reputable scholars having wealth enough to flee in time, have no formal education, applicable or otherwise. You end up, therefore, with a new breed of doctor for the bleakest of times in the bleakest of places. Can an actual Scholar job come in and finally find means of not only circumventing or exploiting the effects of the plague but also how the plague works? Absolutely. And I'd love to see the job quests for that. Are there probably some actual Scholars still in the city, having blocked off the miasma completely? Probably, but such would limit their willingness to traverse much of that zone. Likewise, could a WHM start purifying and fortifying aether or making safehouses sourced in small locations by our XIV equivalent to the lifestream, and survive longer in the miasma due to their infused/innate surplus aether? Absolutely. And Astrologians? Where a truly ominous take on this 'plague doctor' or 'auger' or whatever job might go so far as to disembowel rival gangs to read for signs of the miasma's flow, what could Astrologians instead read from the twisted sky? Who knows? Astrologians would probably be outright new to the zone, seeing as they're unique to Sharlayan and Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Doesn't that seem somewhat contradictory?

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Honestly, no. I've not described them as idiots just by working outside the techniques of formal schooling. I described them merely as pragmatists, and sometimes opportunists, working in a very new, isolated part of world where everything has been turned on its head.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Another thing to remember is what their skills actually mean, many meanings get lost in other languages. To start with, almost everything they do is related to poisons, heals and attacks, as that is something done in the real world, injecting toxins into our bodies to either heal ourselves or cause injury to others. As an example Art of War in Japanese is Poisoning Art, Leeches was an old method of "purifying" the body, and Physick is an old term for a laxative. As for some other skills, Adloquium is Encouragement Plan(which is what Adlo means in Latin) Succor is morale lifting plan, the Galvanize effect is encouragement in Japanese, and Galvanize itself means both to shield and encourage. As well as the rest of their non-fairy based skills which deal with tactical measures, often being a translation of the original Japanese in an easier to understand/cool sounding formate; why say Far Seeing Plan when you can say Excogitation. Also, here is something I wrote a while back about the Broil line of spells.

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A few further points:

• I'd have to find the Yoshida/Koji interview that discussed it, but Yoshida himself mentioned that when a particular job draws at all from European motifs or historical reference, the English names are generally devised first. This definitely doesn't seem to be the case with Broil, but I'd hazard the references are intentional for Leeches and Galvanize, while Physick is just the obvious "academicification" of your typical "heal" spell. Note also that while the French words may follow more obvious thematic connections between their abilities ("Law", "Dogma", "Strategy", and "Treaty"), they and the German words are mostly direct translations from the English words, not the Japanese.
  
  
• Leeches were primarily a way of sucking blood from the body to cure "excess of blood", one of the four types of humors (from the greek χυμός, meaning "sap") of the body, similar to the four elements, which needed to be each be within an acceptable range and balanced against each other in an acceptable range. Excess blood was usually associated with hyperactivity, giddiness, manic swings, and the like. More effectively, it was also used on actual skin problems, hemorrhoids, or the like. However, since the treatment -- via leeches -- of the "blood" humor was so much easier than of black bile or yellow bile (the last being phlegm), leech treatment tended to be horrifically overused.
• Physic is literally an old word for "cure". Because it later came to mean a "natural cure", which then in turn became "natural medicine", and then the most common natural medicine (separate from "herbs" alone) became those of teas or laxatives, and people didn't necessarily want to sip laxatives for a calming drink... physick finally more often referred to laxatives. We can safely assume here though that it still literally means "to cure" or "to heal", as it did previously. Contrary to frequent opinion on these forums, we aren't actually trying to make tanks **** themselves.
• Galvanize has a bit of a complex history. Even now its literal meaning is to induce a muscle contraction via electricity, which gives you a much closer idea of its origin: Luigi Galvani, who experimented on muscle-electricity interaction and whose works later became the basis for theories of (re)animation and, more famously, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. Now, of course, the term more often takes after its metaphorical relationship to electricity -- to "shock" something into action. I also wouldn't doubt that its use in, say, "galvanized steel" (electrically coupling a coating of tin to iron or steel to protect the underlying metal from rust) is also an intended reference.
• It's not as if the non-Japanese translations of Scholar abilities lack their own humor (modern meaning); Adloquium, for instance, is literally just reassuring words, or a speech (-loquium) of purpose for some action or against some negative circumstance (ad-).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

.[*]Physic is literally an old word for "cure". Because it later came to mean a "natural cure", which then in turn became "natural medicine", and then the most common natural medicine (separate from "herbs" alone) became those of teas or laxatives, and people didn't necessarily want to sip laxatives for a calming drink... physick finally more often referred to laxatives. We can safely assume here though that it still literally means "to cure" or "to heal", as it did previously. Contrary to frequent opinion on these forums, we aren't actually trying to make tanks **** themselves

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That may be, but I'm pretty sure I will never again cast physick without thinking of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Wawachume

That may be, but I'm pretty sure I will never again cast physick without thinking of this thread.

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At least we only use it if literally everything has gone to...

I'm sorry. And too true.

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Originally Posted by Wawachume

That may be, but I'm pretty sure I will never again cast physick without thinking of this thread.

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You get a laxative, and you get a laxative, and you get a laxative, EVERBODY GETS A LAXATIVE!!!

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

And really there's only 3 roles, just there's 3 different types of 1 of those roles. And I don't recall moaning that we didn't get a 4th healer this time around, this thread is a suggestion of a 4th healer and I gave a suggestion of a flavour of it. - shrugs-

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The difference between the "3 different types" of DPS is enough that Stormblood introduced two DPS jobs with wildly different roles, and no tanks or healers.

And no, you didn't "moan we didn't get a 4th healer this time around," but you literally complain in the same post "they didn't add a 4th healer because of balance concerns." You're trying to have it both ways, mate.
To be clear: the point I'm trying to make is that their justification for not adding Chemist back when they originally planned in HW is not the same as their justification for not adding "a healer" in ShB, nor does it mean when the planning phase for the next expansion comes around, that the same justification for not implementing a healer will hold indefinitely.
Yoshi literally stated that one of the reasons they implemented DNC as a ranged DPS was because of the lack of options for ranged jobs compared to other roles. Well, we have 4 tanks and 4 melee now, so if the same reasoning holds then next expansion is due for another caster, healer, and/or ranger -- and we just got a ranged job.

I'm simply stating that based on the precedent, unless they've come up with very new ideas for the same job since then, I find it very unlikely that the next healer will specifically be Chemist.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I should have read the interview before taking your word for granted, I read the section where they talked about AST. Yoshi P talked lore points, they had considered an item wielder like chemist, but found Astrologians were more widespread in Ishgard and felt it was appropriate, they also considered "could they hold a gun?" and then thought reading the stars was much more appropriate.

I saw another bit where they talked about balance, but they talked more about DPS roles and I didn't see AST or Chemist mentioned.

What's also interesting from that interview is that back then, their goal was to make it so you can do the content with your roles, rather than design new jobs to fix balance issues. I agree with the approach, though it feels they have since deviated from it at present.

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Couple points here:

1. While I admit I'm having trouble finding the actual interview(s) that are more specific in backing it up, both TV Tropes and the FF Wiki state,

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Originally Posted by TV Tropes (FFXIV Trivia, 'Lying Creator')

[W]hen information for Heavensward was buzzing about, Michael "Fernehalwes" Koji-Fox said that the expansion wouldn't have a new DPS class, but a healer one. Later in that same fan fest, he heavily alluded to a gun using class. Come the December fan fest, he showed that there was indeed a new DPS class: Machinists, and the healers he was talking about are Astrologians, an entirely new, completely unforeshadowed class. In a later Live Letter Koji admitted that when he made that statement, there really were plans for a gun-toting healer class based on the Chemist from Final Fantasy Tactics. However, there were enough problems regarding mechanics during the preliminary phase of development that they scrapped the idea and made the Machinist and Astrologian instead.

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Originally Posted by Final Fantasy Wiki (FFXIV Astrologian, 'Trivia')

Astrologian was originally planned to be Chemist. Due to balancing problems with the Mix command and the desire to implement an all-new weapon type, the idea was scrapped. Mixing items turned into drawing cards. The Stormblood expansion built upon this with the ability to turn standard buff cards into attack or heal cards, further echoing the use of Mix commands from other titles.

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2. I think you're wildly overstating the point with "doing content with your roles rather than new jobs". In this case, the intent is for every healer to have the same base ability and tools needed to complete raid content, even if not the same ability to parse in FF Logs. "Adding new jobs to fix balance issues" is a stretch for the current design, as while Gunbreaker verged on that with regards to Yoshi-P previously stating an intent to add a new off-tank to balance the tank roles out, GNB instead became an opportunity to rebalance all of the existing tanks to fulfill all tasks equally. I personally expect that a new healer could potentially lead to similar re-examination of existing healer jobs.
... I just don't think a job based entirely off of instant healing and minimal spellcasting is going to bring that examination about.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Agreed on these points. I just feel that the distance indicated here allows plentiful berth for SCH's future advancements. It's not a matter of principle -- taking opportunities, where presented, for new jobs over conserving them for old jobs' advancements -- either; after all, I still think Conjurer would fully and compellingly eclipse Geomancer, or at least provide a base job for it, provided that the devs were ever willing to separate job-experience progression past their branching points. This is simply one where I feel the difference in techniques and alleged purpose are sufficient, and differences in lore, style, mood, and aesthetic are more than sufficient, to warrant something separate from Scholar. I'm all for improving upon Scholar and finally fleshing out its identity as more than just differently flavored approaches to a generic healer kit. I just don't think it needs so much space here that chemist-derivatives or the like must be shelved indefinitely until those additions are complete.

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I'd been discussing with a friend some time ago that apparently some datamined info back in 1.0 hinted that the broad elemental abilities given to Conjurer were intended to be a gateway into introducing Geomancer as an alternate branch off it at a later point, had Scholar's implementation not soured the devs to the idea of branching jobs. Not that a lot of information still persists from back then to back his claims, although the existing principle seems sound enough.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I'd been discussing with a friend some time ago that apparently some datamined info back in 1.0 hinted that the broad elemental abilities given to Conjurer were intended to be a gateway into introducing Geomancer as an alternate branch off it at a later point, had Scholar's implementation not soured the devs to the idea of branching jobs. Not that a lot of information still persists from back then to back his claims, although the existing principle seems sound enough.

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I'm not even talking about basis from 1.0. Back then THM had access to 0 prime elements (only Umbral/Astral/Blood/Poison) and CNJ had access to all 6. You essentially had the Oracle and the Elementalist. It didn't need to branch into a Geomancer; it was a Geomancer, just with even more in its purview.

Conjurer was then split in two, becoming the new THM and reduced CNJ. Old THM was entirely removed as a concept and salvaged into the much less unique Arcanist's unaspected spells. (Oddly enough, ACN was not the next job on the roadmap for 1.x. Musketeer was. It even had its whole guild hall complete and there were frequently included in the other LL jobs' questlines. Yoshida then scrapped it, moved the Marauder hall from the pirate fleet to the Musketeer's Coral Tower, and introduced Arcanist instead specifically so that he could implement his alternate healer via a branching class.)

But, since Geomancers as referenced in this game take far more from the light elements, Wind, Water, and Earth, with usually only Fire mentioned besides, it seems reasonable that even the post-split take on CNJ would be able to support GEO. (Just to get an idea of its origins), if crossclass were still a thing, it'd probably be CNJ>AST. Iirc, the whole Cure line of spells are aetherized water? This was touched on more in 1.2+; Fluid Aura itself hearkened back to when the (outer layer, at least, of your) Artifact Robe was literally a corporealization of a water sprite you'd bonded, who could then be used for further defense atop the water aether you'd draw through yourself during curative tasks. The more intense your healing, the more versatile aether you evoked to use for cleansing, personal defense, suppression, or other utilities. That seems pretty Geomancer to me.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

And no, you didn't "moan we didn't get a 4th healer this time around," but you literally complain in the same post "they didn't add a 4th healer because of balance concerns." You're trying to have it both ways, mate.

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This was in response to your argument that Chemist was not introduced because they had issues with balance but not a complaint. I said they didn't add a 4th healer because of balance problems. Yet people are still asking for a 4th healer.

I'm glad they didn't add a 4th healer in ShB and that DNC turned into a ranged DPS, I main a DNC now and love it. But I don't think healers in general are in a good state and a 4th healer would likely suffer from the problems we have now. This is what I have argued in other threads, whilst at -first- I was disappointed we'd not get another healer this time around, I didn't feel I was -entitled- to one and there are still outstanding problems to healing in general. I think to an extent a 4th healer could potentially help balance depending on their approach, but I still share their concern is that it'd have worsened things rather than helped things, especially as we still have glaring problems with them balancing the current three, to the point where they've made healing more boring, and still have balancing issues. A part of me says "accept you can't properly balance them, make them fun again, just don't gimp them so they're still able to clear all content." I don't care if SCH (my former main) is top healer or the worst healer or for healers to be closely balanced, I'm not in the top percentile where it matters.

And I see no harm in wishing for what SE has previously suggested that "we can't do because of balance".

This is not me complaining that we've not had a 4th healer in this expansion as I am arguing that Chemist is not such a bad idea or a poor idea to pursue. Situations change and can be changed. Chemist is one that I see keep coming up.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Yoshi literally stated that one of the reasons they implemented DNC as a ranged DPS was because of the lack of options for ranged jobs compared to other roles.

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And that doesn't mean I have to agree that they are separate roles. This is because the game is built around a holy trinity. I don't agree that "3 healer and 3 ranged physical" would be a the right metric for role distribution. I think "3 healers and 10 DPS" is fairer, at least when talking about roles.

The comparison for "physical ranged" is better measured against other DPS: 3 magical, 4 melee, 3 ranged physical.

But "ranged physical", "magic" and "melee" don't have any meaning beyond position and the presence of cast bars. They fulfill the same role of outputting the most DPS they can, whether it's selfishly or through utility. Whilst DNC could be argued as being closer to the concept of a "support DPS" we lack that classification and DNC could have had the same design approach and be a melee class (and it is semi-melee already) and still fulfill the same role

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

that the same justification for not implementing a healer will hold indefinitely.

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And who is to say their justification for not adding a Chemist-type class will hold indefinitely? If, say, it's something players want.

Where you've quoted, it mentions the issue was in the "mix" mechanic. The OP's suggestions lack a "mix" mechanic.

This is because there are multiple ways such a job can work. They chose to scrap it back then, but "Chemist" and "Geomancer" are the two requests I see most frequently. Both have arguments as to why they might be unlikely, but there's a chance they'll consider the jobs people ask for and try to make them work, because they already have with other jobs people wanted.

Not saying they will in this instance, but, I don't think trying is so futile.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That seems pretty Geomancer to me.

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I feel we're getting pretty off-topic with this thread, but my understanding of Geomancer based on what we've seen in Stormblood is that it exists as something of an inversion to the Conjurers of the Twelveswood. While Conjurers focus on communing with and serving the elementals to pacify their anger and contract them for their power, Geomancers are specialists in warding off or even subjugating malicious spirits, even acting as exterminators. Conjurers are based more out of a western Druidic tradition of reverence towards nature and specialists in healing, while Geomancers are literally based on Feng Shui and -- being called Elementalists in some FF entries -- largely use their elemental powers for offense. While Kyokuho's abilities bear resemblance to modified Conjury (which I expect are more due to limitations from not implementing a functional Geomancer yet), Swallow's Compass shows several examples of the use of Geomancy that completely stray from Eorzean Conjury, such as summoning tidal waves and tornadoes, or even calling forth elemental constructs.

(I could also argue inversions to AST -- the obvious sources of power, AST promoting fate vs GEO promoting fortune, etc -- but as their powersets have very little practical overlap it's somewhat moot here.)

Hence my previous statement: I can see Geomancers existing as a means to deliver to players the elemental spells WHM won't see, not simply because WHM has strayed from its roots in favor of Holy magic, but because as a healer, it has no need for a complex multi-elemental system of attack magic -- while a caster DPS with logical access to the same elements and skills absolutely could.
Y'know, like how PLD uses Holy magic for tanking versus WHM's healing, or GNB and MCH both use guns for wildly different purposes, or DNC and BRD cover parallel areas of entertainment within the same role.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

And I see no harm in wishing for what SE has previously suggested that "we can't do because of balance".

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Right, but the problem is that the comparisons you've drawn are apples-to-oranges.

"SE didn't want to add a new healer in ShB because they wanted to balance the other healers first" is a concern that is dependent on the environment of the existing game, which changes as the existing healers do -- and they already have substantially with this expansion, hopefully in a direction the devs are happier with. It carries the innate conditional, "once they feel healers are better balanced, we might see a new healer."

"SE didn't want to add Chemist 'cuz they couldn't figure out how to make its core gimmick work" is a concern attached to the history of the concept; the only innate conditional is "Maybe if they figure out how."
"They can try again" is... technically correct, sure? But it's a hope dependent on the devs getting a new result from attempting to do the same thing they've previously tried -- the definition of insanity. And while they could have had new ideas about Mix since then, the fact that AST now exists as a potential repository for those same ideas (see: the current Divination system, where you almost literally "mix" seals to affect its potency) means it's less likely that CHM would provide unique enough gameplay from the existing healing jobs to justify being separate from those we already have.

My primary concern is that people are asking for Chemist/Salve Maker/whatever, not because they're excited for the unique gameplay opportunities it would bring (if they did, they would provide practical suggestions on how to implement it, the lack of which was the literal first critique about this thread, and the scramble to do so concluding with "copy other jobs"), and more because they like the idea of bringing a "classic" job forward from previous FF entries in spite of the practicality of such.
I come into these threads hoping to see something that would not only inspire me to want to play Chemist, but the devs to want to make something unique; demand alone doesn't fuel creativity, especially when the "demand" comes out to "just copy this other thing."

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The comparison for "physical ranged" is better measured against other DPS: 3 magical, 4 melee, 3 ranged physical.

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You're getting pedantic about an argument you brought up which would ultimately have no bearing on my conclusion. I see no need to continue that track.

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Where you've quoted, it mentions the issue was in the "mix" mechanic. The OP's suggestions lack a "mix" mechanic.

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And if you read a bit lower down the page...

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Originally Posted by Payotz

>I think you are focusing only on one aspect of the main aspect of Chemist. Basically "Throw Potion" is more like a subset of the Chemist's primary gimmick mixing, ie the Mix command. You might want to focus on that more to open things up a bit.

Yes I do agree on that. I was thinking of adapting the Mudra system or the card system for it as well. Or maybe a system where the Chemist can grab "ingredients" while he/she keeps up auto attacks, and the Chemist can choose to add or discard the ingredients.
I would need to flesh out the idea some more! I was also thinking of having the ammunition system from MCH. Each "Throw potion" consumes one "Potion Ammo" and the Chemist can choose to "recycle those potions" and mix them up with the next batch, increasing their potency.

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... that's more of a confession of oversight regarding an iconic job ability, than an attempt to be unique by leaving it out.

I've made a bunch of changes to the concept!
Check the first post and tell me what you think!

Changelog:
- Removed stance dancing as the main mechanic
- Removed "Regen/Pure healer role"
- Added dots to auto attacks.
- Added Mix mechanic and Brewed Potion mechanic.
- Added "Corrosives" Trait
- Added Ingredients Mechanic

As always, thank you for your feedback!

Very interesting ideas.

However, I feel that the scavenging part of the job you have listed is a bit too complex because as a healer you will mostly look at your party list. I can already see party members screaming at you for letting them die because you went to look for materials, or you the healer dying because you failed to stack for a mechanic because you were too eager to hunt for that ingredient . I think a positional/gathering mechanic might fit better a job like Geomancer since they are known for standing in certain terrain, and have less of a responsibility as a caster DPS.