RAIN OF DEATH seems a bit broke

Rain of Death
Delivers a ranged attack to target and enemies near it.
Combo Action: Quick Nock
Combo Bonus: Chance to inflict Stun.
TP: 3000 / Recast Time: 30 sec.

Somethings been bugging me about bard and I wanted to get some other opinions on it.

Rain of death has a 30 second cooldown yet it combos of a skill that has a 3 min cooldown. To me this seems pretty broken. There are tons of ways this can be fixed like.

option 1
make it a solo action like jump maybe with a 1-3 min cool down.

option 2
make it combo before quick knock(might suck since its aoe though and you may wanna get that quick knock off without aoe'ing)

option 3
give quick knock a 2 min cooldown and rain of death a 2-3 min cooldown.

option 4
make a new combo that consist of only heavy shot>rain of death

option 5
combo off quick knock but change RoD to 3 min cooldown so at least the combo makes some sort of sense.

option 6
keep it the way it is but lower tp to 2k (2k seems much more reasonable for a non-combo RoD0

option 7
a chance to stun when not used in combo

So lets here some feedback from all you barchers so that I dont regret posting this in bard instead of general discussion.

You're upset about having to wait for your chance to stun? That's all I can figure. I'm never short of TP on bard so i can use RoD whenever its ready. Used by itself RoD still does damage or pulls adds in a pile, etc. While the stun effect is nice idk that it should be anyone's main concern when using RoD.

I pretty much agree with Peptaru. The ability is great as it is. For 3k TP we can stun in an AoE as well as do damage, and the ability is ready whenever the combo abilities in line before it are.

From my experience in talking to others in game, I believe the OP is in the minority in believing that the abilities is in need of adjustment.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

You're upset about having to wait for your chance to stun? That's all I can figure. I'm never short of TP on bard so i can use RoD whenever its ready. Used by itself RoD still does damage or pulls adds in a pile, etc. While the stun effect is nice idk that it should be anyone's main concern when using RoD.

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im not upset about the ability to stun, as you can see one of my options is to make the cooldown longer. It just seems odd to me to have a skill with a 30 sec cooldown combo off a 3 min cooldown in a game that is built around combos.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I pretty much agree with Peptaru. The ability is great as it is. For 3k TP we can stun in an AoE as well as do damage, and the ability is ready whenever the combo abilities in line before it are.

From my experience in talking to others in game, I believe the OP is in the minority in believing that the abilities is in need of adjustment.

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and no offense, but you dont seem to know how the action works. you dont get a chance to stun when using 3k tp, stun is only when you combo. That means you can only stun every 3 mins since quick knock is 3 min cooldown.

Id much rather see quick knock with a 2 min cooldown and RoD with a 3 min cooldown so that the combo makes sense.

I really cant imagine ever using RoD for a full 3k tp, its really not worth the tp and if you are blowing 3k on it im sure your dps is really hurting from it.

You can't hope to change the timer of quick nock (QN), that ability is a beast for DD, if they cut the timer they'd have to cut the damage and i would hate that even more... that's my go to KABOOM to the face for great DPS or a winnin shot before something kills a mage. The timer for RoD is set based on RoD usefulness, QN is based on its usefulness. While i can relate to what you're saying about creating a better "flow" with the timers, i just can't see it as being feasible. The really long QN timer stops brd from being a back up drg (leg sweeps, flurries, etc) with RoD always lit up, but allows for two moves which are chainable in specific situations. Specific situation control is more something a support job should have, as opposed to simplifying their abilities to make a smoother combo. Like i said though, i can see where you're comin from.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

You can't hope to change the timer of quick nock (QN), that ability is a beast for DD, if they cut the timer they'd have to cut the damage and i would hate that even more... that's my go to KABOOM to the face for great DPS or a winnin shot before something kills a mage. The timer for RoD is set based on RoD usefulness, QN is based on its usefulness. While i can relate to what you're saying about creating a better "flow" with the timers, i just can't see it as being feasible. The really long QN timer stops brd from being a back up drg (leg sweeps, flurries, etc) with RoD always lit up, but allows for two moves which are chainable in specific situations. Specific situation control is more something a support job should have, as opposed to simplifying their abilities to make a smoother combo. Like i said though, i can see where you're comin from.

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I dont think having quick knock at 2-2.5 mins would be too op. If im on archer i have it at 1.5 mins all the time as i always use keen flurry first anyway. My suggestion still keeps it at 2 mins which is 30 seconds longer then i would have it on archer. to tell you the truth. I dont even care if they change RoD to 3 min, at least that way it will make sense.

The good thing about this forum is that a month later, it should still be on first page and continue to reminds bards for feedback.

Being in some exp parties that leave little room for distance without drawing attention and end up with 3k TP maybe once a wave.

Would like to see more varied combo options.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

and no offense, but you dont seem to know how the action works. you dont get a chance to stun when using 3k tp, stun is only when you combo. That means you can only stun every 3 mins since quick knock is 3 min cooldown.
Yeah, I know how it works my friend, I use it daily. I simply typed it up a little screwy in my post. I am an engineer not a secretary.
Id much rather see quick knock with a 2 min cooldown and RoD with a 3 min cooldown so that the combo makes sense.
Thats what you would rather see, but I disagree, I get the way it is now, in my opinion, your suggestion on this makes less sense.
I really cant imagine ever using RoD for a full 3k tp, its really not worth the tp and if you are blowing 3k on it im sure your dps is really hurting from it.
Okay, don't imagine it. That doesn't mean it needs to be changed. I rather enjoy having it at my disposal, as I can hit 3k TP with the slightest of ease. Its rather easy to use several other weapons skills and still have 3k avaliable nearly every 30 secs. with the damage it does is 12 enemies at ones, is fairly equavalent to the damage you get from using many multiple other WS who's tp usage would add to double, triple, or even quadruple that of 3k tp.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

The good thing about this forum is that a month later, it should still be on first page and continue to reminds bards for feedback.

Being in some exp parties that leave little room for distance without drawing attention and end up with 3k TP maybe once a wave.

Would like to see more varied combo options.

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im actually failing to make sense of you post, sorry. Are you saying that in xp party's you pull with a 3k tp move?

Its hard to move far enough away to combo without aggro in some situations, and getting 3k tp happens maybe once per pile of enemies.

I think that's what it was saying, but could be mistaken.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Its hard to move far enough away to combo without aggro in some situations, and getting 3k tp happens maybe once per pile of enemies.

I think that's what it was saying, but could be mistaken.

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I added a couple more options, 1 being to leave as is but make it only 2k tp as that seems more balanced for a non combo no stun attack imo.

Personally, I would believe the best option is to keep everything as it is, only give it the chance to stun outside of the combo. To me, that would justify the 3k tp easily. That being said, I am fine with it as it is. As I mentioned before, when you AoE several mobs you do the equavalent damage of multiple WS's, often equavalent to several times the TP used for one RoD.

Honestly there really isn't anything wrong with it, its usefulness, and its balace as it is.

RoD's recast is fine.

You get to use it for zero TP once every 3 minutes. If you want to use it more than that, it'll be 3k TP per.

What Peptaru has described. I was in Natalan behind the second gate. What I thought was a safe place to combo was not. I triggered enemies standing before the second gate and caused five party members to die.

Instead of risking extra damage with combos, I would Light Shot and melee with the others. For every group of enemies our party pulled, I would usually have enough TP to use Rain of Death. While it would be nice to use it for far less TP as part of a combo, the risk was too great.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Personally, I would believe the best option is to keep everything as it is, only give it the chance to stun outside of the combo. To me, that would justify the 3k tp easily. That being said, I am fine with it as it is. As I mentioned before, when you AoE several mobs you do the equavalent damage of multiple WS's, often equavalent to several times the TP used for one RoD.

Honestly there really isn't anything wrong with it, its usefulness, and its balace as it is.

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i chance to stun outside of combo would be a nice trade off.

I don't understand you negative guys. Why do you NOT want more "power" to your Job? 3k TP cost is too high outside combo. End of. It needs adjusting one way or the other.

Having it combo after Quick Nock was ultradumb in the first place. Quick Nock is a finisher. A big one.

Rain needs to either combo after a combo starter WS or be made a separate ability on a different CD. Even if it was guaranteed stun outside of combo I still wouldn't blow 3k TP like that.

Edit: Do I need to mention Steel Cyclone's 30 sec cd and chance to stun when used in Combo? And skull sunder is 30 sec CD too. Proper arrangement.

Brd isn't DD, sorry for you.

but warrior cant do that safely from range, AND they have stricter combo requirements. seems fair to me.

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Originally Posted by Razen_Arghast

I don't understand you negative guys. Why do you NOT want more power to your Job? 3k TP cost is too high outside combo. End of. It needs adjusting one way or the other.

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Thats because, unlike yourself, were are not so greedy to "want more power" for one job or another to a point to throw off balance. Pally ability Spirit Within is on par with RoD, and the other 3 DoW jobs abilities cost 2k tp but have a 60 sec recast, which is 2x that of RoD. Thus making all the similar job added combo ability, damage only outside of combo. I will take 3k TP and 30 sec recast over 2k TP and 60 sec recast, anyday.

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Originally Posted by Razen_Arghast

Edit: Do I need to mention Steel Cyclone's 30 sec cd and chance to stun when used in Combo? And skull sunder is 30 sec CD too. Proper arrangement.

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Warriors are meant to tank by offensive presence. These abilities make sense.

We bards are meant to sings and support. We are not made for that kind of damage. Wait for RNG on that one.

(On the subject of RNG, I question the validity of the musketeer job, I mean I know it can be made unique but is another ranged class... Hmm... I think RNG belongs with archer and barrage ya know? Just food for thought.)

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Thats because, unlike yourself, were are not so greedy to "want more power" for one job or another to a point to throw off balance. Pally ability Spirit Within is on par with RoD, and the other 3 DoW jobs abilities cost 2k tp but have a 60 sec recast, which is 2x that of RoD. Thus making all the similar job added combo ability, damage only outside of combo. I will take 3k TP and 30 sec recast over 2k TP and 60 sec recast, anyday.

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And where exactly did I say I only want more power to 1 Job to unbalance the rest? I mentioned "More Power" through properly arranging the cooldowns and the skill order, not by having Rain deal Flare-level aoe damage on a 30 sec cd as a solo skill. The goal here is to have the skills properly arranged.

What exactly would be so bad about having Rain combo off a starter or a mid-chain WS? You didn't comment on that part of my post. Do you deem it "too powerful" or something? Makes the class too DD oriented in your point of view?

Argue please, don't just go around calling people greedy when you don't even support that "greedy" comment of yours.

By the way, Spirits Within set at 2 min cooldown along with 3k TP cost is stupid too. I have voiced concerns about that before. Does that also make me "Greedy" for wanting to see it better tuned? Paladin will probably be in line for buffs soon by the way. I'm hoping for adjustments on Spirits.

Dragoon's and Monk's Ring of Talons and Dragon Kick are on a 60 sec cd but they are also branching off from a mid-chain WS each. And they both have 1 more finisher in each of those chains so they can alternate the combo: Vorpal-Impulse-Talons and then Vorpal-Impulse-Chaos and then Talons is ready again to combo. Same with Monk and Pounce-Demolish-Howling and Pounce-Sucker-Dragon. So you don't actually have to blow that 2k TP to use them solo. You will almost always have their combo available for performing.

Bard is actually the only Job along with Paladin to have their new WS "borked" CD and cost wise, and the ONLY Job to have a new finisher WS (Rain) Comboing off from another finisher (yes Quick Nock is a finisher. Being a second step only WS doesn't matter).

Additionally, Heavy-Quick Nock is a straight-up DD combo. Rain is DD of course but also AoE and utility (stun). Support Job means you have utility to offer along with buffs, only your utility in this case is restricted by a 3min CD pure DD ability. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

No matter how I look at it, Rain's combo spot seems misplaced and an oversight. My suggestions still hold:

.Solo skill with a proper cd - AoE and chance to stun. Preferably no more than 2 min CD. May or may not have TP cost depending on CD and damage.
.Have it combo after Leaden and keep it with 3k TP as it is now. Possibly adjusting its' CD to 60 sec?

Gives you more options available than having to wait on Quick Nock's CD every time. You don't want more options?

You said you want "more power" in specific reference to a bard ability, on a bard thread, and mentioned not a single word about how other jobs equavalent abilities need to be adjusted for more power. How else is that to be taken??

As far as the weapons skill chain location of the ability itself, to me, it seems fitting that it is at the end of the chain, otherwise the next ability in line would negate the stun.

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Argue please, don't just go around calling people greedy when you don't even support that "greedy" comment of yours.

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If you do not wish to be deemed "greedy" don't be so specific in where you demand more power as you berate the rest of us for not demanding it.

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Additionally, Heavy-Quick Nock is a straight-up DD combo. Rain is DD of course but also AoE and utility (stun). Support Job means you have utility to offer along with buffs, only your utility in this case is restricted by a 3min CD pure DD ability. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

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Not really. We already have Leaden Arrow, Shadowbind, Gloom arrow in a quick combo that all provide utility in attacks. I appreciate having an solid AoE damage ability at my disposal when I need it.

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No matter how I look at it, Rain's combo spot seems misplaced and an oversight.

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No, you mean no matter how "YOU" look at it. Just because someone does not see it your way, does not mean they are looking at it incorrectly. Perhaps the devs feel having access to a decent size AoE stun that does solid damage as well is a little to OP for the ability. Particularly so, if you figure in the fact that where you would have it placed in the combo chain would give us full access to both the overall damage component and the AoE stun upon CD every time, while negating any TP to the ability at all. At that point somethings got to give. They will balance out by taking something else where, and I, personally do not want that.

We cannot be a top DD, have a healthy utility HP buff for those incomming big primal attacks, buff TP and MP regen, give everyone acelerated movement rates, and increase everyones accuracy, all the while allowing use to do AoE damage and AoE stunn TP free every 30 seconds. Thats a little of a ridiculos expectation, and yes, down right greedy.

Do I want more options? Certainly I do, I just don't want the options you appear to blueprint for use that will cost an evantual balancing issue, which in turn may cost me to lose a valued utility benefit later.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

You said you want "more power" in specific reference to a bard ability, on a bard thread, and mentioned not a single word about how other jobs equavalent abilities need to be adjusted for more power. How else is that to be taken??

As I mentioned in my next post I have a few gripes with other Jobs and some of their abilities too. This is a Rain of Death thread though, so I kept my post relevant to that. Other Jobs' abilities should be discussed in a different thread. I'm not trying to compare Jobs and abilities at the moment. Just keeping the discussion on Rain.

As far as the weapons skill chain location of the ability itself, to me, it seems fitting that it is at the end of the chain, otherwise the next ability in line would negate the stun.

My point/suggestion was to have it on a separate chain end altogether. As a finisher. Stun won't be negated that way. Also mentioned that CD/Damage/TP cost may or may not be adjusted depending on testing.

If you do not wish to be deemed "greedy" don't be so specific in where you demand more power as you berate the rest of us for not demanding it.

I'm neither "demanding" more power nor berate anyone for not "demanding" it. I'm not demanding anything for that matter. I'm simply in agreement with OPs' point of view about RoD. I'm not berating you or anyone else for not "demanding" power either. I do not agree though with downright shooting the thread and it's suggestions down without even providing counter-arguments. "I like how it is now" is fine but it doesn't provide any discussion ground or convincing anyone why it should be kept like it is now. You merely say you like it as it is.

Not really. We already have Leaden Arrow, Shadowbind, Gloom arrow in a quick combo that all provide utility in attacks. I appreciate having an solid AoE damage ability at my disposal when I need it.

Yes but the "problem" is you don't have that solid AoE damage (and possible stun utility) at your disposal "always when you need it" because it is more or less "bound" by a 3 min DD ability which is more or less used on CD, given it's high damage output. Again, see my second suggestion about having RoD not combo off from Quick Nock.

No, you mean no matter how "YOU" look at it. Just because someone does not see it your way, does not mean they are looking at it incorrectly. Perhaps the devs feel having access to a decent size AoE stun that does solid damage as well is a little to OP for the ability. Particularly so, if you figure in the fact that where you would have it placed in the combo chain would give us full access to both the overall damage component and the AoE stun upon CD every time, while negating any TP to the ability at all. At that point somethings got to give. They will balance out by taking something else where, and I, personally do not want that.

Last time I checked "The way I see it" means exactly that. The way I see it. Kinda stating the obvious here? Of course it's my opinion and "the way I see it" and I never stated different opinions are wrong. I did support my opinion with a reasoning behind it though. And about its' combo placement, that would be the point of having the ability in the first place. When its' CD is over you use it "properly" to have its' full effect (Still have to combo it after 2 other skills, TP is not negated totally). If you think its' effects are a little too OP then that means the ability itself was not adjusted properly in the first place. Placing an external limiter to it through the cooldown of another ability is a pretty poor way to design it.

We cannot be a top DD, have a healthy utility HP buff for those incomming big primal attacks, buff TP and MP regen, give everyone acelerated movement rates, and increase everyones accuracy, all the while allowing use to do AoE damage and AoE stunn TP free every 30 seconds. Thats a little of a ridiculos expectation, and yes, down right greedy.

I don't think being able to use RoD in combo sooner than it can be used at the moment would make Bard OP/a top DD/make it outshine other DDs. It just frees up/separates your damaging and utility combos leaving you free to choose whether you wanna push single target damage or AoE/Stun a group down. If you still deem it too powerful CD could be easily adjusted to 60 sec. Even with a 1 min CD it still will be more readily available than it is in its' current state with that 3k TP cost and 30 sec CD.

Do I want more options? Certainly I do, I just don't want the options you appear to blueprint for use that will cost an evantual balancing issue, which in turn may cost me to lose a valued utility benefit later.

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I'm not trying to blueprint anything. I'm suggesting tweaks to the ability and give my reasoning behind them. If you'd like more options give us your suggestions so we can discuss them too. Lastly, you can't claim to be sure my tweaks will cause a balance issue since 1. They would be tested by the devs first 2. We would have to test the changed ability ourselves to see if it actually does unbalance Bards' power levels. Which I doubt it would by the way. And you wouldn't have to lose any valued utility later on because if the changes do not work it's simple enough to revert them and leave RoD as is or go about it a totally different way.

Cuz if it makes bard overpowered everyone would line up to say "change it back, its too OP!".... yaright. AoE stun every three minutes suits a support role fine. Wanna cut the timer? make it single target, then people complain that it should still be AoE. I can see no valid reason to change RoD or QN timers.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Cuz if it makes bard overpowered everyone would line up to say "change it back, its too OP!".... yaright. AoE stun every three minutes suits a support role fine. Wanna cut the timer? make it single target, then people complain that it should still be AoE. I can see no valid reason to change RoD or QN timers.

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Of course the devs would change it on their own. Not wait for people to actually ask for it to be toned down.

It's a powerful move. Leave it the way it is.

looooooooooooooool rain of death is not meant to be repeatedly used, the combo option is nice, and the 30 sec recast is good for solo use

No, none of you know what you're talking about.

I need RoD on :30 timer and 1000 TP cause it just rocks, thanks.

They are adding in Store TP + Acc materia for hands in 1.22. I can see a lot of BRDs using this. With a good double/triple meld this will probably increase your TP gain enough to where you can use this more often (even with the 3k TP cost).