5.08 Nin buff / 5.1 Ninja getting gutted...

Because The Dev Teams Needs High Opinion of the Class for 5.1 i made this post. Ahem for all the Ninja out there i speak Quite Plainly Raise our Personal Dps to Compete with the other 3 Melees Please And Thank You. If you Say But "Trick attack" Its been Stated, Clearly No one Cares About Trick Attack if you need to Nerf it Do it. If you Need to get rid of it Do it. The very low Majority of ppl who play this Class Has Stated Several Times Hardest Classes with High Ping Requirement Should do highest damage ingame. or Least Compete with the other Melees its placed with.

As for what it brings to the Table Excuse me But Monk has Mantra that helps healers and Dragoons have Eye Tether and Battle Litany. and these 2 are the highest Melees in the game. So please. Give Ninja A Reasonable Buff. The Community who plays it and watches it from the side and seen the class inputs mostly agrees this Class is Heavily miss Matched Just Because Trick attack (Tricky Balance issues) again before you judge look at drgs and mnks if that's too much Trouble, then get rid of "Trick Attack" or nerf it ONLY if you make us Strongest class. (Again This Class is Ridiculous. )

Yours Truly Reddit. Ninjas Everywhere.

Is this post poking fun at the angry nins on reddit? Or your honest criticism? Cause I honestly don't know if I should be laughing at this, or disagreeing with you.

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Originally Posted by Nielk

Clearly No one Cares About Trick Attack

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Never a good idea to just assume other people opinions. I for myself do like the trick attack and would hate it if it got nerfed or even removed. And I am sure I am not the only one who thinks that way.

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Originally Posted by danbu

Never a good idea to just assume other people opinions. I for myself do like the trick attack and would hate it if it got nerfed or even removed. And I am sure I am not the only one who thinks that way.

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You aren't I want to keep it, but I would accept it getting nerfed/removed if enough other good things were done to bring us in line without breaking us.

Would removing the vuln down and buffing the dmg solve the issue? I really hate to constantly see abilities out right removed. Though the ability doesnt do anything related to "tricks" whatsoever so I dont know. So much job identity taken away or not emphasized nearly enough.

Ninja, for me, is the last bastion against the trend of simplifying dps. I love ninja because it is complex and flexible.

Trick Attack is appreciated by parties, but if changed, focus more on assassinate.

If GCDs must consolidate, improve Huton to preserve the speed and flow of our attacks.

Want to do ninja justice? Give us movement during Ten Chi Jin.

I think the only rework Ninja needs is to mudra use.
It's clearly too much to handle on the server side, and on high ping.

Ideally, they should find a way to do it client side.
Have the client side compile the mudras and calculate the resulting Ninjutsu, then using Ninjutsu triggers the skill server side.
No need for the 1s cooldown, no delay between button presses.

Then, do something with the bunny to make it less obnoxious, and have TenChiJin allow us to move while using it.

I suspect the rework is already complete in terms of the dev input. They're probably already testing it out on their private test servers.

So I suspect our input is for naught at this point. But please look forward to it!

Ps - shelving my NIN until the job is changed. Enjoying MNK so much more. But your mileage may vary.

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Originally Posted by Aaramis

I suspect the rework is already complete in terms of the dev input. They're probably already testing it out on their private test servers.

So I suspect our input is for naught at this point. But please look forward to it!

Ps - shelving my NIN until the job is changed. Enjoying MNK so much more. But your mileage may vary.

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That may be true for 5.8 but not 5.1, otherwise they would just release all at once. Because weve been told were getting two passes we know at least one is going to reflect upon the other, therefore even if our threads dont impact they 5.08 release they will impact the 5.1

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Would removing the vuln down and buffing the dmg solve the issue? I really hate to constantly see abilities out right removed. Though the ability doesnt do anything related to "tricks" whatsoever so I dont know. So much job identity taken away or not emphasized nearly enough.

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It really should have been Sneak Attack, given the rear positional requirement. Trick Attack could have been a follow-up move or something.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

It really should have been Sneak Attack, given the rear positional requirement. Trick Attack could have been a follow-up move or something.

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Yea never understood why they got rid of Sneak Attack, I loved how they both worked in XI. Wish they would just make them more interesting and powerful.

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Originally Posted by danbu

Never a good idea to just assume other people opinions. I for myself do like the trick attack and would hate it if it got nerfed or even removed. And I am sure I am not the only one who thinks that way.

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You're not. Far from it. I like applying it and I like having it in among party's toolkits. I would still enjoy it even if taking a NIN was merely rDPS-neutral at the highest levels of play from the NIN itself and their party.

Personally, I hate raid (de)buffs of less than equivocally ~10% damage effect. If it isn't enough to be worth banking or situationally even holding onto a CD for, I don't want it around. Thus, I don't want TA nerfed to any less effect than it already has.

For instance, I'd rather see Devotion cut, Brotherhood reworked, Dragon Sight reworked (though for other reasons as well), Chain Stratagem buffed or reworked, and AST cards reworked entirely. But, TA's already in a good spot. It's short and sweet. It's iconic. It should remain such.

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Originally Posted by bass9020

Yea never understood why they got rid of Sneak Attack, I loved how they both worked in XI. Wish they would just make them more interesting and powerful.

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Agreed. I had hoped they'd just keep Trick Attack's base potency and then just give it two available positional bonuses: from the front, an additional 260 potency or so (to the old 500; more likely closer to 800 now with all the power creep and trait removals); from the rear, 10% vuln up for 10 seconds.

I think I posted this elsewhere, but to reiterate, I'd love to see the following:
- complete mudra rework. For example, Hyosho requires 4 button presses for mediocre damage. That's a poor tradeoff IMO. Why not simply replace Hyoton and Katon with their upgrades at 76+, like many other jobs do?
- nerf TA to perhaps 5% down from 10%. The higher our ilevel continues to climb, the more TA will be worth, and therefore the less our pdps will be limited to. In other words, TA is hamstringing us. It needs to change. 5% seems more reasonable. In return, I'd love to see TA useable outside of Hide / Suiton, and when used under Hide / Suiton allow for an auto-crit.
- Bunshin needs to be adjusted. It also clouds the purpose of the TA window. Are we supposed to use weaponskills only? Hyosho is our highest potency attack, but then if we're using ninjutsu in the TA window, our clone is useless. And even without Bunshin up, if we're using ninjutsu, we're not building ninki - so I'm not sure what SE's whole goal is here. It's as though our job has 2 different identities that don't mesh well together at all.

Anyways, looking forward to the changes in the future, as I do love NIN, but shelving for now sadly :/

I find it sad that the devs are going the easy way out and wants to bring mudra on GCDs like DNC steps. I think this is a mistake, and quite frankly will make the class more boring and split identity.
I love the fact that NIN is fast pace, its the job with most casts per minute, and as such it should be rewarded for this.

I dont see why we have to do toothpick damage because of our Trick Attack. In my honest opinion I find it weird that we are taxed for an ability that MIGHT give more rDPS than a DPS without party buffs.
And how is it that 5% More damage on an ability than MNK's Brotherhood is justification to place us thousands of DPS bellow them in total damage?

I feel that its illogical for buff DPS to be out dpsed in rDPS by a DPS that brings nothing to the group other than their own DPS. Its backwards and puts a heavy burden of stress on the DPS that has party utility.
It splits up the community and breaks statics.
-Example: BLM should perform DPS wise, on average better than lets say a NIN. BUT.. a Great NIN should have the ability to shred the BLM in rDPS if the party as well perform high.
Why? Because BLM will have no other factors into play for DPS than their own skill. NIN however has to be insanely good at executing their rotations perfectly, as well as very low latency, on top of memorizing everything so they dont have to look at the hotbar 95% of the Fight while still doing positions, do mechanics and so on.

BLM might think its hard to find spots to stand to maximize their DPS, but NIN will have to do the same AND follow a high paced rotation that leaves no room for error. Just in the opener itself, we press 27 off global buttons, and thats not taking into account pre pull huton, hide, or potions. You are looking at 27 ogcds from the moment the timer goes off to Trick attack's 10sec window is over.

So please, reward us NIN when we actually pull this off.

1. Make NIN stay a complex class to play and place mudra's on client side instead for the latency issues to be fixed.
2. Buff Ninjutsu potencies.
3. Give us the original Bunshin (Mimicing weapon skills we do with the potencies those weapon skills do, just slightly tuned down. aka.. 75% ish. As well as Bunshin combo finisher on AE and DoT from Shadow Fang.)
4. If needed, nerf TA into a brotherhood status. Or remove it completely, and open up more Sneak Assassin type skills for personal burst in place of the lost Trick Attack.

I get the impression that I will probably love the 5.08 adjustments and loathe 5.1's. I love how busy Ninja is, and I just want the damage output to be correctly proportional how frantic the job is. Minus TCJ, I like how ninjutsu currently works and think doing anything with ninjutsu, short of making it client-side, would be a mistake. Maybe they will surprise me, but I am not optimistic right now.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

I feel that its illogical for buff DPS to be out dpsed in rDPS by a DPS that brings nothing to the group other than their own DPS. Its backwards and puts a heavy burden of stress on the DPS that has party utility.
It splits up the community and breaks statics.
-Example: BLM should perform DPS wise, on average better than lets say a NIN. BUT.. a Great NIN should have the ability to shred the BLM in rDPS if the party as well perform high.
Why? Because BLM will have no other factors into play for DPS than their own skill. NIN however has to be insanely good at executing their rotations perfectly, as well as very low latency, on top of memorizing everything so they dont have to look at the hotbar 95% of the Fight while still doing positions, do mechanics and so on.

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This. Standing still isn't the *only* difficulty this game has. Utility is completely taxed to hell right now but conveniently forgotten on the top 4. (BLM Addle from the Role Action set, MNK Mantra + Brotherhood, DRG Battle Litany + Eye, SAM Feint). I wouldn't say "shred rdps", I'm thinking more like 102-105% in perfectly optimal setting. Give players a bonus for bringing a supportive job, while making them more like 90-94% in less than optimal setting.

The whole idea behind "not making things required for meta comps" is falling ever flat on its face due to the disparity in the top 4 and everyone else, which is conveniently a top 4, a perfect amount of dps jobs to bring. Thanks to this, it's worse than ever.

I may not be a NIN-main, but a BRD one and the concept is similar, just because we bring some rdps to the table and don't have to stand still, we get to be weaker. Here I was thinking constantly having to press buttons and making split second decisions was our trade-off, but nope.

It's far too easy for NINs and DNCs, and even BRDs to a lesser extent, to fall off the map because our rDPS tops are already reliant on bringing as high as possible other dps, and we're still HEAVILY behind. In contrast, BLM is topping and dependant on no one. Nobody needs to coordinate with BLM at all for them to reach greatness. All because "doesn't have a raise" and "has to stand still".

I do kinda think there's way too much Ninjutsu use now, especially with Kasatsu's charges. It feels like we have no time to use our other skills.

I wouldn't mind making Ninjutsu less frequent (or less spam via Kasatsu at least) but more powerful, then turning Trick > Dream > Assassinate into a slightly more common oGCD combo we weave between GCD's when we're not using Ninjutsu.

That's the only method I'd like if they removed or nerfed Trick's vuln. really.

So people keep bringing up trick attack and parties. The average player isn't gonna make the most use of trick attack. This sole skill is basically the bane of ninjas existence right now. We wanna give you more damage but we need to consider how trick attack works with parties. Some people are like just take the skill we don't want while others just want it nerfed. Nobody wants to hear BUT TRICK ATTACK when they are 2-3k personal dps behind other dealers that have lower apm, skill ceilings, and less issues with ping. The skill isn't giving 3k raid dps so why is it that we're being punished for it?

As far as removing it. i don't wanna see it go because in a sense it's piece of Thief a class we will never get in this game(mug too) yet if this one skill is the sole reason that SE wont balance our personal so that we're not locked out of party finder group then remove it all together and give us bland skill like battle litany/brotherhood/battlevoice ETC. i love ninja and all it extreme button pushing and cd/resource management i want it to keep what makes it unique but not at the cost of being shunned or treated like a burden

We aren't treated as a burden, we are one. TA output isn't enough to justify the lack of dmg even with 3 BLM in party. Considering the dps requirements for Savage if you aren't over geared + over melded you aren't making the checks so parties are carrying you through. Drop TA really. it's not an argument now as to it's usefulness. If it is going to be so much of a crutch you can't make base dps numbers to clear content then it isn't needed. You want to check the usability of a job vs others, quit the party composition crap and check them baseline. 4 ninja clearing Titania at lowest gear level vs 4 blm. The difference in dps is evident. Currently taking a DNC and ninja into any endgame content at the same time is an almost guarentee'd failure at base ilvl.

We aren't getting potency buffs because TA is so useful! Screw TA then. Dev's need to figure out how to balance the classes over all. ShB so far has been the biggest fail with the gaps between all the jobs not just the dps. You're making the meta game worse with the clear differences in skill required vs usefulness of the jobs. I like the complexity of ninja always have. But right now I'm on the ropes of if I want to quit the game all together due to the inbalance throughout the game. Dispoportionate rates of ability at ones job (tank vs tank, healer vs healer, dps vs dps) to this extent is just going to make the endgame requirement more strict and going to force more then just 3 classes to be locked out.

P.S. You need a head overseer of each role, not just the classes/jobs. A person that looks over every job of that role and weed out the differences.

(i.e PLD using 2k mana per ability regening 1k mp per riot blade
DRK using 3k mana per ability regening 600 per syphon strike.)

where is the balance? This will never equal out in the long run. The higher the ilevel the higher the stats the bigger the gap will become between these two with just this right here. Not even going to get into the rest of the nonsense.

For SE to balance around trick attack it makes me think trick attack does something none of us has figured out yet. Cause they make it sound like it's worth the low dps trade off.

I don't mind being lowest dps taht's not the issue. IT's how low the dps is. There shouldn't be that much of a gap between the lowest dps and the next lowest dps. Hell I didn't care about my dps in SB. I could make the checks and do the dmg. I was useful and didn't worry about pugs that just picked up a troller yesterday outshining me.

TA being a thing is dumb in itself. If an ability becomes the sole purpose or reason for your influence of a class you need to get rid of that skill because it will break it somewhere down the line.(Make it to strong or to weak) Utsusemi in XI was a good example. And allowing players to decide how your game functions should never happen. You have a vision follow it. Input is good but should never be the basis of influence.

As for dropping TA or not. It only matters if it influences the class/job overall. It doesn't. Ninja benefits as much from TA as a DRG from peircing reduction. Not at all when you can just put the potencies it gives into your basic combo. If they drop it it'll be one less button I have to push or they'll sub it for another skill that will likely be more useful to me. Either way it'll have no real influence over me as a ninja. I don't care about party composition. That only becomes a factor when there are huge differences between jobs when it comes to doing their jobs, like right now.

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Originally Posted by Machi_Machiavelli

For SE to balance around trick attack it makes me think trick attack does something none of us has figured out yet. Cause they make it sound like it's worth the low dps trade off.

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We going area 51 memes on this? cause tbh i agree with you lmfao

#notmytrickattack ?

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Originally Posted by Machi_Machiavelli

For SE to balance around trick attack it makes me think trick attack does something none of us has figured out yet. Cause they make it sound like it's worth the low dps trade off.

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It certainly has been. And it is still worth as much pDPS as it gives rDPS... There is no difference to quantitative job performance between the two. Ninja, like 5 other jobs, are just undertuned at present. I'd rather not see us be even more dependent on our party, but I'd rather not lose Trick Attack either, and thus would hope to simply get more pDPS. I'd rather not see Aeolian devalued even further in the process, and would ideally like to see more options made more viable where necessary to reach balance at any given level and the rest allocated to Bunshin. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Nielk

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a minority of players seriously beleive "Job Complexity = higher DPS". not many actually beleives this, why? because the ones who do are choosing complexity for the wrong reasons, and generally get complexity nerfed as this post litterally shouts

"Job Skill Curve differences are far too wide to justify Balancing". Which translates to "healthiest option is to reduce the Skill Curve of Ninja" you seen the Considerations? lets go through them..

- Pressing too many buttons, This overall means they feel the Ninja has TOO many things to keep track of, this could be a Loss of several things, Such as Increasing the CDs of OGCDs to spread the OGCDs further apart to reduce the quantity of maintaince or go as far as Removing Abilities.

- Re-aligning the Combo, This Could litterally mean they're going to remove Shadow fang from Ninja, Removing a Entire maintaince of the ninja straight up.

- Mudras problems, this is going to litterally put Mudras on a GCD, which means u'll have a wider gap between uses and a longer period of time to hit each one. this will again make Ninja Easier.

your looking at 5.08/5.1 Simplifying your job, so ur problems Go away, they're not going to INTENTIONALLY make a job Overpowered because of Difficulty, they're going to nerf ur Difficulty. so when reading the notes on updates of ninja how did this not become apprant to you, theres Litterally a entire thread asking SE NOT to do these changes because they're simplifications.

heres Some advice.

When u choose your main Job, If DPS is this much of a Focus for you, Dont pick the one with the Utility and before u say "i love the assassin play! Its Ment to do DPS" no, throughout MMORPG history, Rogues/Assassins/Ninjas have had the concept of Increasing Damage taken with Vunerability and more, the difference is, Unlike Western MMORPGS its Actually a balancing tool for SE and just because you have a problem with that doesnt mean their Targetted Audience does.

Lets Pick apart ur argument further.

you compare Ninja directly to 2 Jobs which will likely be nerfed in the same patch ur buffed, both of those jobs are overperforming. do u not see, the fact they're buffing over half the jobs inthe game Passively nerfs both these jobs?... comparing ur job to overpowered Jobs Doesnt prove ur underpowered, it just proves how overpowered these jobs are, and weather they're indirectly nerfed by shifting everyone forwards or pulled back it'll nerf their % Against other jobs reguardless.. so again ur next problems fixed.

TD;LR.

Notes have already said ninjas being Simplified. ur Arguments have driven this and tbh if u argue against it now, ur arguing against ur entire statement here.

Potency buffs have been promised but balancing around Trick attack also has, It isnt going. Pick a Pure DPS if thats all you care about.

DRG and Monk will either be directly potency wise or indirectly Nerfed by the Shift in DPS for lower Performaning Jobs.

Ninjas over 1000 RDPS, DRG and Monk are 525, It still doesnt balance out u evening with them DPS Wise.

SE didnt ask for opinons on Ninja either :P they've already told us what they're intending to change with the job :P, u're better off giving feedback on ur opinons of the Changes they're going to implement rather then its current performance which has Already been addressed with fixs intended for the job.

the Changes that have been proposed will put ur Mudras on a GCD, Put u on a 1 2 3 Combo and be looking into ur OGCDS :P, if it doesnt shout simplification i dont know what will and the fact they're still addressing trick attack as a balancing Point They're not removing it, they wont do something like that mid expansion now u'll be waiting on 6.0 to see if that becomes a thing.

RDMs have been shouting to remove Instant rezz for higher potencies for a Loooong time, they've still not done it, SE have Stuck pretty straight to these RDPS Factors both defensively and offensively.

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Originally Posted by Tenryou

We going area 51 memes on this? cause tbh i agree with you lmfao

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problem isnt balancing around Trick attack, the problem is they overestimated its impact, its a 1000 RDPS Gain while u perform like 3k Less DPS comparitively to the DRG/Monk/SAM. they've done this too all jobs with utility.

RDM is 3k Beneath BLM. Ninja is 3k Beneath Monk/DRG the problem is Simply this, They got Balance differences in DPS Right between the physical Ranged and they're actually underpowered for it because how Wide the DPS Differences are in the other 2 Role catagories throwing the DPS Ceiling and Floor so god damn wide. trick attack is fine. the problem lays with the Utility tax being Far too high.

adjust Ninjas Rotation abit with the proposed changes made by SE and then go on to Up the overall DPS of Ninja by 700-1000 DPS and the job would be Fine :P, It'll sit on 13-14k DPS RDPS Value which will put it in Line with the Top performing Jobs RDPS Wise and put it in the correct place PDPS Wise for its RDPS Value realistically.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

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The only problem with what you said, is im assuming you are given MAX rdps value of utilities. And you say to bring up nin in dps by 700 to 1000, considering we are 3 k behind like you said, we would still be behind.

Also, while i do not believe that a class should be tuned higher in damage for more complexity, at the same moment you cannt have a job be too complex for no reward either. Trick is over valued as you said the problem is that dps utility is ALWAYS hard to balance, because it needs to net a higher dps value for it to be worth it. Hindering pdps for utility is fine, but dps utility makes that harder.

Also, in terms of rdps vs pdps, what would you consider "in line"...

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Originally Posted by Drayos

I was brand new to the game at the end of SB.

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Do you actually have any idea of what you are writing about? I have been playing NIN since its release.

Dont feed the troll. stand still and maybe it goes away.

On a serious note tho. and on topic.
So what is basically said here is... Dont complain because we will ultimately end up with classes that only has one button?
If this is how its gonna be. A game where only non-utility classes are valued, then thats not a game I want to support with my money.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Do you actually have any idea of what you are writing about? I have been playing NIN since its release.

Dont feed the troll. stand still and maybe it goes away.

On a serious note tho. and on topic.
So what is basically said here is... Dont complain because we will ultimately end up with classes that only has one button?
If this is how its gonna be. A game where only non-utility classes are valued, then thats not a game I want to support with my money.

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I agree. And I also have played NIN since release, however I only really started raiding in deltascape. up till that point I was a filthy casual :D

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Originally Posted by Drayos

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You obviously dont actually know much about MMO history my friend.
Thematically rogues have been the highest burst dmg, but also are generally quite high sustain too. WOW's history has strong rogues. Guild wars history has strong rogues. Ragnarok online had INCREDIBLE rogues.
So you are fooling yourself if you think rogue play has always been about the debuffs and tactics. Thats DND rogue. Not MMO rogue. And even in DND rogues can be quite strong, they are actually frequently only underpowered because DMs/GMs have a weird habit of being biased and making bad rulings against them (oh the classic DM ruling that you can only sneak attack if literally attacking from stealth instead of mid combat with an allies help.)

If giving feedback yields closed ears from the devs and a general simplification then I will also stop supporting this game.
Furthermore the assumption that thats how the devs will react to everything is stupid. Giving feedback is literally the only way players can have an impact on what the devs think. I have no idea how you could read into that opening post and suddenly convince yourself that the devs are gonna read it and be like "oh guess we should make NIN a 1 button class" But I honestly have more faith in them than that.

You on the other hand are basically fear mongering conjecture while telling other people to stop sharing their opinions and hopes for the class. Honestly its idiotic.

and as a final note, the assumption that the devs are 100% putting mudras on the GCD is still an assumption. Read the differing translations and you will realize that there are definitely still things up in the air. The literal BEST time to have your voice heard is right now when changes are in process. Literally earlier this expansion they told everyone to just be quiet and wait for the 5.05 changes. The fact that they are scrambling, and even adding a 5.08 should clue you into the fact that all of these changes are still works in progress.

This is literally the BEST time to try to talk about your individual hopes for NIN

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

The only problem with what you said, is im assuming you are given MAX rdps value of utilities. And you say to bring up nin in dps by 700 to 1000, considering we are 3 k behind like you said, we would still be behind.

Also, while i do not believe that a class should be tuned higher in damage for more complexity, at the same moment you cannt have a job be too complex for no reward either. Trick is over valued as you said the problem is that dps utility is ALWAYS hard to balance, because it needs to net a higher dps value for it to be worth it. Hindering pdps for utility is fine, but dps utility makes that harder.

Also, in terms of rdps vs pdps, what would you consider "in line"...

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I aint a balancing guy, sadly, i cannot tell exact numbers, i know at 99 percentile Ninja in Savage is doing 12-13k DPS, but the DPS at 75th percentile and more is MUCH wider, this is where the 3k is coming from, but Ninjas averaging at 12k DPS at 99 percentile in Savage apart from one fight, but its Not the only one that falls behind in DPS... majority of Jobs do it seems.

the Simplification they have talked over should allow lower performing Ninjas actually get closer to DPS potientals, and the GCD on Ninjitsus will actually make it more latency friendly reducing the impact Ping has overall, which will also do the same thing.

With a 1000 DPS buff they'll be on 13k, with Trick attack RDPS Wise 14k, BLM does 14.5k DPS.

So combined together This will close the gaps much further then u thing.

ofcourse this is taking into account we're expecting Monk to be Nerfed and DRG to maybe be touched also, so if the damage ceiling is also brought down by nerfing the Over performing jobs this will indirectly buff Ninjas DPS comparitively, so combined.. it should bring Ninja waay closer to the top in RDPS Value.

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Originally Posted by CrashofZenki

Do you actually have any idea of what you are writing about? I have been playing NIN since its release.

Dont feed the troll. stand still and maybe it goes away.

On a serious note tho. and on topic.
So what is basically said here is... Dont complain because we will ultimately end up with classes that only has one button?
If this is how its gonna be. A game where only non-utility classes are valued, then thats not a game I want to support with my money.

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i didnt say dont complain, I said That the whole mentality of "MY JOBS DIFFICULT THEREFORE I SHOULD BE BEST" is dooming, Complaining a Job Doesnt do enough PDPS to justify isnt a Complaint, its a Fact of the state of balance currently. theres a huge difference in this. my post was Saying, they are Simplifying Ninja, it Isnt going to be as complex when 5.08/5.1 arrives, so ur Idea that it should work this way in the long run will smooth out anyway as ur COmplexity will be reduced overall.

it isnt "trolling" its the truth, Look at the buffs we've seen Come through So Far.

Bard, DRG, Monk, MCH have all become quite abit easier to play and these are the jobs SE have touched the most. there is Evidence that this is taking place and Jobs are being Simplified, With 2 more going under the Rework, both with several statements which WOULD reduce its Complexity and the focus of their attention on REDUCING BUTTON PRESSES and OGCDs it defintly Implys that the reworks will Simplify these jobs for you.

i aint saying Dont talk about changes u want to see, im saying that proclaiming these Changes Should be made Because of Job Skill curve Differences Will imply your saying something your not. As ur Trying to use it as a Justification to Imbalance the game itself.

please tell me a MMORPG today thats Successful in a Western audience where they physically balance the game Under Difficulty :P, cause i really cant think of any. WoW ESO and FFXIV have Never abided by such a Rule neither did GW2 or Rift during its more Successful days. Imbalance will kill a Game, and balancing on difficulty will do exactly that.

we'll all run around as the IDENTICAL job because its the top performance. Diversity would Die because no ones seriously going to choose a Job at the bottom of the List. Look at monk, its hit top DPS and MULTIPLIED in popularity in raiding.

you do not need to be a Veteran to understand the affects Imbalance can have on a game, u Simply need to a Background in the Genre to see the affects bad balancing can have on a MMORPG. i maybe new to FFXIV, but i have been in MMOs for 20 years and have seen several times Where balance is a Issue, if U didnt care about balance u Wouldnt be complaining. nor would anyone Else. its because of Balancing Several Jobs are currently rioting due to poor performance. Ur changes will just bring the other half of the jobs into the forums to make the same complaints.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

I agree. And I also have played NIN since release, however I only really started raiding in deltascape. up till that point I was a filthy casual :D



You obviously dont actually know much about MMO history my friend.
Thematically rogues have been the highest burst dmg, but also are generally quite high sustain too. WOW's history has strong rogues. Guild wars history has strong rogues. Ragnarok online had INCREDIBLE rogues.
So you are fooling yourself if you think rogue play has always been about the debuffs and tactics. Thats DND rogue. Not MMO rogue. And even in DND rogues can be quite strong, they are actually frequently only underpowered because DMs/GMs have a weird habit of being biased and making bad rulings against them (oh the classic DM ruling that you can only sneak attack if literally attacking from stealth instead of mid combat with an allies help.)

If giving feedback yields closed ears from the devs and a general simplification then I will also stop supporting this game.
Furthermore the assumption that thats how the devs will react to everything is stupid. Giving feedback is literally the only way players can have an impact on what the devs think. I have no idea how you could read into that opening post and suddenly convince yourself that the devs are gonna read it and be like "oh guess we should make NIN a 1 button class" But I honestly have more faith in them than that.

You on the other hand are basically fear mongering conjecture while telling other people to stop sharing their opinions and hopes for the class. Honestly its idiotic.

and as a final note, the assumption that the devs are 100% putting mudras on the GCD is still an assumption. Read the differing translations and you will realize that there are definitely still things up in the air. The literal BEST time to have your voice heard is right now when changes are in process. Literally earlier this expansion they told everyone to just be quiet and wait for the 5.05 changes. The fact that they are scrambling, and even adding a 5.08 should clue you into the fact that all of these changes are still works in progress.

This is literally the BEST time to try to talk about your individual hopes for NIN

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I didnt say they didnt if u read what i said properly i said OTHER GAMES DID NOT TAKE RDPS INTO BALANCE FACTOR.

Rogue in WOW for example has also been a top tier DPS option, but it has had ALOT of iterations of Vunerability and Aggro management tools, WoW Just never Nerfed their Personal DPS to compensate for the quantity of Utility the job has, but this has Also ment WoW at MULTIPLE points have pidgeon holed its playerbase in 4 Classes which people just Stack ontop of each other rather then trying to be Diverse in Choice, its actually affecting the game quite negatively as its making their Game more boring to watch by the playerbase as ALOT of people complain all they ever see is the EXACT same comp Done by EVERY team ALL the time.

did u not read the 70 Questions they answered? they litterally said putting it on GCDs to solve the issues of people unable to use it due to ping.... lol

Ninjutsu is easily influenced by lag, and we were reaching a limit as to how we could adjust it, so we are planning to restructure ninjutsu itself. The playstyle of putting together mudra will remain, but they will not be weaved between GCDs.

while translation could be Lost, its Clear by Some defining words. that it does make it sound Like they're going to do, and given the changes Prior this is again Something ALOT of players have asked for, The moment Dancer hit the scenes quite a few Players said "why cant Ninjutsu Work like Dancers Dances" because it is a HUGE problem for latency players. if this Doesnt happen then my statement isnt Applicable any longer. but clearly my opinons are beneath the fact i am assuming this is something they're looking into and this is a Fix that is highly likely the most effective.

theres Several people big People in the community who can translate Japanease. i'd imagine if we had gotten the Idea So entirely wrong, someone would of mentioned it when the 20,000 Videos of reviewing those Live letters.. so its Quite possible we actually do have the right idea of what they're doing.

reviewing every other Rework that has happened so far in SHB, Every job has been SImplified in their changes, Why do u think Ninja and Summoner would remain so simple. and while Some translation is wrong (ONE WORD in the Summoners wording lead some truth to this) ALL the changes Imply Simplification.. this isnt like one Statement.. every change Implied Talked abvout REDUCING the Complexity of the job lol.

again as Stated. anything can change, They could go further then theyv'e said they could do Less then they've Said.. they could overbuff any job they could Underbuff any job. Balance will do a Loop throughout 5.08 to 5.1 due to how Many jobs are Likely to be buffed over the course of these two patchs, so the final outcome could come out anywhere. but when speculating on buffs its obvious if they've changed they statement wasnt made with that knowledge.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

did u not read the 70 Questions they answered? they litterally said putting it on GCDs to solve the issues of people unable to use it due to ping.... lol

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I have read, I watched too, And btw I happen to actually be one of those people on the English forums that speaks Japanese.................
And they way I heard it was it was one of the options they were CONSIDERING to fix the class. Which is exactly why speaking out against it is still a good idea.

And even if it were something they already planned on; people can still speak against it pre-emptively.

I do agree with you tho, they seem to be moving towards simplification.

If simplification comes in the form of removing the technical issues hurting a class Im hopeful, you are right chances are, based on past evidence, that the simplification will drastically reduce the difficulty.

But i still think that arguing difficulty should be more rewarding is not indirectly asking for simplification. Thats you and Devs (if they do it) reading into other peoples words without actually thinking about what the person that said it meant. Vieing to tell anyone to offer less feedback is stupid. We can argue against the way things are balanced freely if we so choose.

Ok so since there's like a billion walls of text i'm just gonna address a few things i saw.

1st i don.t think nerfing things at this point is good idea when they raid dps checks are so tight and if they continue trend you are gonna need that dps. truth be told dont want to see them nerfed i want to see any comp be viable to beat a raid. and not monk/drg/blm *throw whatever 4th here*

2nd personal dps matters with these dps checks 1k rDPS isn't gonna make up for the 3k gap that is trending between ninja and the other melee
As it stand nins are basically a 4th physical ranged dps when you look at how low we are. Bring our PERSONAL DPS up by 2000-2500 and then outrage would be less than it is but also do not neglect the other issues stated. then the balance of trick vs.pdps is met and class is fun. Nobody wants to be dead weight and if they do well.....

3rd I am all for fixing the class. Would love for ninjutsu system to function like Dancer's Steps less chance to loose a 20 second cd to ping latency etc. also if they did this make sure we still have access out teleport like dance does their movement skill.

i don't mind being a support class,i mind being a class so bad people actively shun you from content because they find you to be a burden.

Here's me hoping they don't butcher the Mudra system for something even more clunkier and less fluid, just make it possible to use other skills during ninjutsu windows like giving it a time window that pops once you hit the first mudra and then you have like 7s to 'complete' the jutsu while throwing the skill on cooldown immediately, also get rid of the bunny and give it a 2-3s reset option if you hit the wrong mudra key instead of sending it into full CD.

At this point I've completely given up on trying to point out that people need to act like thier adults and write logical responses on possible fixes to a class/job

Hey guys, do we have fixed dates for 5.08 and 5.1 yet? Wondering if I should start leveling NIN up from 70 now, or if I should wait a lil longer to see how the updates change things.

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Originally Posted by Drayos

Rogue in WOW for example has also been a top tier DPS option, but it has had ALOT of iterations of Vunerability and Aggro management tools, WoW Just never Nerfed their Personal DPS to compensate for the quantity of Utility the job has-

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Firstly, about this. Im not sure about WoW NOW. But in its peak time WotLK, and Cata, (legion indeed had a good player base, but i dont count that one) no one was pigeon holed into anything. You had assass rogues who were top dps in the game, but you know why you only brought one? Everyclass provided a benefit, also since you couldnt change classes on your character (had to have an alt) gear would drop that ypu would prefer go to someone who would use it, because disenchanting, while helpful is ultimately a waste of high end gear.

Could you double up on rogue? Yes, but it would be more effective to have two.different specs. Also, utility in that game was not NEARLY as impactful. Yes, blessing of might was a high stat buff, but they were willing to forgo that for other buffs, if another was needed. Synergy was still key despite how "powerful" one was. Buffs were nice but not so mandatpry you couldnt down content.

Even the hard core built their grpups based on what people wanted to play, what was needed, and what was most effective. WoW fudged up everything after that because they worried about "mandatory builds"

Thats how their downfall started, and look at them now. They homogenized they class so much, in legion they essentially made each class have almost completely seperate sub classes.

They worried about people not playing what they want because "we already have a rogue, we want a dps pally" or "we have a warlock, so we want an ele shammy" so made it matter less so you can double up if you "want to". Well, no need to worry if you have at least one of every class (WotLK/Cata) so lets double up, would probably do better dps anyway.

WoW never needed to be concerned on nerfing classes dps for its utility, because ultimately someine either brought the same or their own that was wanted anyway. Also, majority of the time, that outside of the top raiding guilds, the bulk of the rest of the playerbase, competed toe to toe half the time, regardless of class. Pruning and homogenizing utilities, is how it started not necessarily them nerfing their personal dps for compensation.

That said, we wont know until 5.1 im hoping they dont butcher mudra. I understand utility is what they want you to focus on and to be impactful, but the concern over meta caused them to overvalue some utilities, and essentially undertuned some classes... (though i dont know the excuse they have for SAM)

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

Firstly, about this. Im not sure about WoW NOW. But in its peak time WotLK, and Cata, (legion indeed had a good player base, but i dont count that one) no one was pigeon holed into anything. You had assass rogues who were top dps in the game, but you know why you only brought one? Everyclass provided a benefit, also since you couldnt change classes on your character (had to have an alt) gear would drop that ypu would prefer go to someone who would use it, because disenchanting, while helpful is ultimately a waste of high end gear.

Could you double up on rogue? Yes, but it would be more effective to have two.different specs. Also, utility in that game was not NEARLY as impactful. Yes, blessing of might was a high stat buff, but they were willing to forgo that for other buffs, if another was needed. Synergy was still key despite how "powerful" one was. Buffs were nice but not so mandatpry you couldnt down content.

Even the hard core built their grpups based on what people wanted to play, what was needed, and what was most effective. WoW fudged up everything after that because they worried about "mandatory builds"

Thats how their downfall started, and look at them now. They homogenized they class so much, in legion they essentially made each class have almost completely seperate sub classes.

They worried about people not playing what they want because "we already have a rogue, we want a dps pally" or "we have a warlock, so we want an ele shammy" so made it matter less so you can double up if you "want to". Well, no need to worry if you have at least one of every class (WotLK/Cata) so lets double up, would probably do better dps anyway.

WoW never needed to be concerned on nerfing classes dps for its utility, because ultimately someine either brought the same or their own that was wanted anyway. Also, majority of the time, that outside of the top raiding guilds, the bulk of the rest of the playerbase, competed toe to toe half the time, regardless of class. Pruning and homogenizing utilities, is how it started not necessarily them nerfing their personal dps for compensation.

That said, we wont know until 5.1 im hoping they dont butcher mudra. I understand utility is what they want you to focus on and to be impactful, but the concern over meta caused them to overvalue some utilities, and essentially undertuned some classes... (though i dont know the excuse they have for SAM)

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Sadly Wotlk was a very different time.

However once fights started to involve the mechanical aggressiveness they began too, the rogues toolkit could be used to completely nullify damage done to the raid, it was also able to control aggro and perform one of the highest dps. Among more.

It was common practice in a lot of world firsts and things rogues would be stacked to the heavens to take advantage of these factors.

would be nice if they give the only melee its job trait of poison daggers increase melee 20% they took it away left mnk/drg job traits alone what the heck is this.

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Originally Posted by Nielk

would be nice if they give the only melee its job trait of poison daggers increase melee 20% they took it away left mnk/drg job traits alone what the heck is this.

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This is honestly is probably the core reason why NIN is in such a bad spot right now.

DRG/MNK got potency buffs that give them overall higher potency even when factoring in the loss of piercing/slashing debuffs, while NIN's "buffs" are only compensating for the loss of Dripping Blades and the slashing debuff. SAM is actually in a similar position and its potency increases only covered the loss of slashing debuff and didn't actually go up overall.

Not sure how they could mess up at balancing in such a fundamental fashion and I really hope they just buff all of NIN/SAM's combo moves appropriately to remedy it in 5.08. Currently the only weaponskill they have that actually has a reasonable potency is Gust Slash post 5.05 buff.