5.0 Wind-Up Openers

Hey there, Roxanne Stoner here! Tornado Kick enthusiast and FF14 5.0 theory crafting madmonk, mwhahaha!

In my obsession to make my Tornado Kicks even more powerful, I've created a list of openers for all the battle classes (excluding healers) that work with the stronger monk TK openers. After losing count of how many times I've had to edit and re-edit these over the past several days, literally bashing my head against various surfaces, I'm fairly certain that these are pretty strong and that all the buff windows line up properly for the most part. Given the past responses I've gotten from my theory crafting, I'm not expecting everyone to jump on these (in fact I'm expecting a lot of people screaming how they won't work or that they're not optimal), but if you're curious and would like to try getting out a bit more damage in your opener, give them a try and see how they work out.

Anyway, here's the link! Let me know what you think!
5.0 Wind-Up Openers

Just going to copy this here because I clicked on the one you posted in Tank Roles, and it’s far more applicable here.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I just briefly skimmed your suggested openers for the two jobs I actively play.

I definitely disagree with your openers for BRD and DNC, but I still wanted to point out something to you regardless of my disagreement because you seem unaware of it: you cannot Barrage Apex Arrow. Your openers both list IJ > Barrage > Apex > PP > RA. This does not work because Apex Arrow is an AOE (even with its 500 potency at 100 Gauge, it has no drop-off), and you cannot Barrage AOE skills. Barrage is, unquestionably, always used with Refulgent Arrow, and Apex is never used at anything less than 100 gauge in most circumstances because the damage scales up to 500 potency. It doesn’t start at 500 potency. If you were already aware that you could not Barrage Apex, then there’s no reason to push it between Barrage and RA: RA should always be your next GCD after hitting Barrage. You also can’t put a PP proc there because it’s always used at 3-stacks now in most circumstances with the removal of Repertoire being reliant on critical ticks from your DoTs.

And you also never open with Army’s Paeon, but with your DoTs straight into Minuet. The Army’s Muse buff is not nearly beneficial enough to warrant that, plus it will leave you songless after Mage’s Ballad expires because AP won’t be off cooldown, which means even more lost damage due to the lack of Repertoire procs on your Soul Gauge. Which means it will take longer for your Soul Gauge to fill.

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To add to your healer openers:

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Optimally, you’d want at least a minute and 45 secs before the pull to gain all the seals you need plus one extra card. In the worst case scenario, use Sleeve Draw to get all the seals you need.

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You cannot fish for AST seals pre-pull. The AST has to be in combat to gain seals from their new cards. This was a deliberate design on the part of the developers to stop the type of pre-pull openers that you have described above.

SCH also shouldn’t dump all their Aetherflow on Energy Drain. While it is a DPS gain, their main job is to heal, and they may need that Aetherflow for an Indom or the like should a fight have early-hitting raidwide AOEs.



I can appreciate that you put in a lot of time and work into this... but a lot of the openers posted here just come off as illogical to me for any of the jobs that I play and know at any sort of decent level. I think that you definitely need to brush up on job mechanics before you start actively theorycrafting more, because there seem to be quite a few that you aren’t entirely aware of. Not to discourage you or be mean or anything, but this document comes off as very misinformed in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Just going to copy this here because I clicked on the one you posted in Tank Roles, and it’s far more applicable here.

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Wow! Oh my goodness, I had no idea Barrage couldn't buff Apex Arrow. My mistake, thank you for the feedback. I'll need to edit that now.

While I see what you mean by being song less after Mages Ballad and how that affects you Soul Gauge gain, it only leaves you in that state for 10-13 seconds, which is the equivalent of six to eight DoT ticks, as Army's Paeon will come off CD by then. I'm not sure if you lose all of your Soul Gauge if your songs fall off, but in the event that you do, wouldn't it make sense to just use it before then? Same thing with PP. If you don't have three Repertoire stacks and the song is about to end, wouldn't you use them anyway? Pretty sure they don't carry over into the next song.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Wow! Oh my goodness, I had no idea Barrage couldn't buff Apex Arrow. My mistake, thank you for the feedback. I'll need to edit that now.

While I see what you mean by being song less after Mages Ballad and how that affects you Soul Gauge gain, it only leaves you in that state for 10-13 seconds, which is the equivalent of six to eight DoT ticks, as Army's Paeon will come off CD by then. I'm not sure if you lose all of your Soul Gauge if your songs fall off, but in the event that you do, wouldn't it make sense to just use it before then? Same thing with PP. If you don't have three Repertoire stacks and the song is about to end, wouldn't you use them anyway? Pretty sure they don't carry over into the next song.

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You don’t lose the gauge, but you cannot gain Repertoire without being in a song, meaning that your Soul Gauge will not fill while you are songless and that you have to delay using Apex even more (it takes roughly ~60 seconds to charge to 100 gauge and use as it is with the standard opener and play demonstrated in the ShB BRD guide). The more you delay Apex, the chances are you get fewer uses of it in a given fight, even while considering the RNG aspect to Repertoire and getting the Gauge to 100 in the first place. Even with those 6~8 DoT ticks, that’s 6~8 potential Repertoire ticks. Since each Repertoire gives 5 gauge, that’s a potential loss of 30~40 Soul Gauge. Sure, you may have crap RNG and get 0 procs, but you may also have god-tier RNG and get 6~8 procs of it. It’s best to always assume you’ll get the procs from Repertoire rather than assuming you won’t.

Ideally, you never want to be songless. There may be niche scenarios that call for it (I seem to remember an UwU rotation in SB that had you songless at one point for a brief amount of time in order to realign your rotation due to shifting it around for mechanics in Titan and pre-Suppression Ultima), but ideally you always want 100% uptime on songs. Less than 100% uptime means no Repertoire gain, which means lost damage. (Obviously, this doesn’t count for downtime...don’t sing there; but whenever the boss is targetable, you want to be in a song.)

The only time you use a non 3-stack PP (usually a 2-stack PP in this case) is if: you know that you have EA coming up on the next GCD that lines up concurrently with the DoT tick; or if Minuet is about to end. Your Repertoire do not carry over into Mage’s, but the idea is to milk all you can from the forced procs EA gives and maximize your PP usage. Back in SB, BRDs used to use 2-stack PP during openers due to Chain Stratagem and Battle Litany snapshotting onto our DoTs and pushing our proc rate well into 60+% in order to not overcap our Pitch Perfect stacks and lose damage. However, now, Repertoire is static at 40%, so most cases of PP will be 3-stack.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You don’t lose the gauge, but you cannot gain Repertoire without being in a song, meaning that your Soul Gauge will not fill while you are songless and that you have to delay using Apex even more (it takes roughly ~60 seconds to charge to 100 gauge and use as it is with the standard opener and play demonstrated in the ShB BRD guide). The more you delay Apex, the chances are you get fewer uses of it in a given fight, even while considering the RNG aspect to Repertoire and getting the Gauge to 100 in the first place. Even with those 6~8 DoT ticks, that’s 6~8 potential Repertoire ticks. Since each Repertoire gives 5 gauge, that’s a potential loss of 30~40 Soul Gauge. Sure, you may have crap RNG and get 0 procs, but you may also have god-tier RNG and get 6~8 procs of it. It’s best to always assume you’ll get the procs from Repertoire rather than assuming you won’t.

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If it had the percentage chance of Monk's Deep Meditation 2 + Bootshine (which is a 70% chance to proc a chakra stack) or BH (which guarantees at least two uses of FC), I could somewhat understand having those assumptions for procs, but not so much at 40%. At most, it means that you miss out on 2-3 procs rather than 6-8 procs. And these openers are all used under the assumption that everyone will be using similar openers that raid buffs end at the same time, so the way it lines up is different from current BRD guides and openers listed elsewhere (or it might be really similar).

I've edited so that PP is put before Apex Arrow. Now there's at least 16-20 seconds between playing Minuet and using PP with an EA in between. Pretty sure it's likely you're get two stacks within that time period.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

If it had the percentage chance of Monk's Deep Meditation 2 + Bootshine (which is a 70% chance to proc a chakra stack) or BH (which guarantees at least two uses of FC), I could somewhat understand having those assumptions for procs, but not so much at 40%. At most, it means that you miss out on 2-3 procs rather than 6-8 procs. And these openers are all used under the assumption that everyone will be using similar openers that raid buffs end at the same time, so the way it lines up is different from current BRD guides and openers listed elsewhere (or it might be really similar).

I've edited so that PP is put before Apex Arrow. Now there's at least 16-20 seconds between playing Minuet and using PP with an EA in between. Pretty sure it's likely you're get two stacks within that time period.

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I may meet my posting limit soon, so if I do not reply further, that is why (forums are limited to 20 posts within a roiling 24 hours and I’ve already been active this morning in other threads).


Even if its 2~3 in reality versus the potential 6~8, you shouldn’t ever act under the assumption you’ll get less procs instead of more. With proc based jobs, I think it’s best to always be prepared for the event that you do get a proc rather than say to yourself “I won’t get a proc”.

That period of songlessness would also likely mean that EA is up at some point. EA is meant to be used on cooldown in most instances, and using it guarantees a Repertoire. You would not want to sit on it during a songless period and risk losing uses of it throughout an encounter.

All that talk about procs being said, regarding your insertion of PP into the openers: while you should always have the mindset of getting and reacting to these procs, you also cannot solidify a spot in openers for RNG or proc-based skills outside of where they are guaranteed (e.g., by Barrage’s Straight Shot Ready trait, DNC procs guaranteed by Flourish, RDM procs guaranteed by Acceleration, etc.). Placing PP there may or may not even be beneficial depending on what kind of PP it is (1-stack, 2-stack, or 3-stack). There’s a reason the standard BRD opener does not include any hard spots for PP, but instead states “Use PP during this time at 3-stacks if/when it procs”. Same for Burst Shots procing RA: if your Burst Shots proc an RA during the opener, you replace it with RA with no question.

I had similar complaints regarding procs with your DNC openers simply because you’re opting for a 1-2 combo before starting Technical, but that risks you getting Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall procs, and you would have to subsequently delay your Flourish to not overwrite those procs, which potentially pushes the Flourished procs out of your TF window depending on your Saber Dance rates AND it means that all future Flourishes will be delayed by that 1 or 2 GCDs from lucky procs.



As for your BRD opener compared to the standard, they are vastly different. The same is for DNC. I guess I’m also just wondering why try to make new openers when others have already figured out the most optimal/standard openers that take into account raid buff alignment already.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Even if its 2~3 in reality versus the potential 6~8, you shouldn’t ever act under the assumption you’ll get less procs instead of more. With proc based jobs, I think it’s best to always be prepared for the event that you do get a proc rather than say to yourself “I won’t get a proc”.

That period of songlessness would also likely mean that EA is up at some point. EA is meant to be used on cooldown in most instances, and using it guarantees a Repertoire. You would not want to sit on it during a songless period and risk losing uses of it throughout an encounter.

All that talk about procs being said, regarding your insertion of PP into the openers: while you should always have the mindset of getting and reacting to these procs, you also cannot solidify a spot in openers for RNG or proc-based skills outside of where they are guaranteed (e.g., by Barrage’s Straight Shot Ready trait, DNC procs guaranteed by Flourish, RDM procs guaranteed by Acceleration, etc.). Placing PP there may or may not even be beneficial depending on what kind of PP it is (1-stack, 2-stack, or 3-stack). There’s a reason the standard BRD opener does not include any hard spots for PP, but instead states “Use PP during this time at 3-stacks if/when it procs”. Same for Burst Shots procing RA: if your Burst Shots proc an RA during the opener, you replace it with RA with no question.

I had similar complaints regarding procs with your DNC openers simply because you’re opting for a 1-2 combo before starting Technical, but that risks you getting Reverse Cascade/Fountainfall procs, and you would have to subsequently delay your Flourish to not overwrite those procs, which potentially pushes the Flourished procs out of your TF window depending on your Saber Dance rates AND it means that all future Flourishes will be delayed by that 1 or 2 GCDs from lucky procs.


As for your BRD opener compared to the standard, they are vastly different. The same is for DNC. I guess I’m also just wondering why try to make new openers when others have already figured out the most optimal/standard openers that take into account raid buff alignment already.

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I can see that. As much as I tried to minimize losing out on resources, several of the longer openers do sacrifice something in order to get bigger moves within buff windows. It comes down to the dps loss versus the gain in that sense.

You're guaranteed two EA in each song window with it's CD and with where it is in the openers I listed, even if it does come off CD during a song-less period, it wouldn't be more than 1 or 2 GCDs and it's the only time it would happen in an encounter. You'd have to collectively hold EA by seven GCDs in order to waste a usage over a fight.

I do see what you mean about having exact spots for PP given it's nature. I tried to mention that you can switch it's placement with Sidewinder if RNG is good, but so long as you don't have a NIN or RDM, you can really pop them anywhere you want (which I should also add in there).

I can see the concern with the Cascade/Fountain fall combo and the second move gaining a Flourishing proc, but that just means you have to delay Flourish by 1 GCD. Unlike other duration buffs, it only takes about 8-10 seconds to use all of the Flourishing GCDs back to back, so it being pushed back by 1 GCD shouldn't be that bad. This is all assuming that the fight has 100% uptime, since there are several fights where you have to delay buffs during add phases (unless they're extremely tanky or you know you're going to have the buff up gain by the time the boss becomes targetable again) or there are moments of downtime (i.e. Maelstrom in E3S).

Ultimately, the reason for all of this work is an obsession I have with strengthening my TK rotation. Much as I'd like to just do the strongest monk opener, it's pointless if doing so mess up raid buff alignment and everyone else's damage.

Your Machinist opener is insanely inefficient. Nobody should use it, ever. You don't even seem to know how the abilities work because you're wasting massive amounts of potency by not using enough Heat Blasts, not enough Gauss Rounds / Ricochets and delaying Drill for absolutely no reason.

If you want to know about actual Machinist openers, I just released an optimization write-up on them on the Balance Discord and it's been added to our guide:

The Balance 5.X Machinist Guide

Machinist is not the only job you got wrong. All of your openers are off down to the the logic behind your raid buff alignment. I urge you to join our discord and talk to other theorycrafters if you want to improve your work because currently it's a far cry from anything optimized.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

You're guaranteed two EA in each song window with it's CD and with where it is in the openers I listed, even if it does come off CD during a song-less period, it wouldn't be more than 1 or 2 GCDs and it's the only time it would happen in an encounter. You'd have to collectively hold EA by seven GCDs in order to waste a usage over a fight.

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I still disagree with the idea of remaining songless for several seconds, and with sitting on EA at that time. I don’t think it’s optimal play for the job, as I’ve explained regarding Repertoire, procs, and the Soul Gauge.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I do see what you mean about having exact spots for PP given it's nature. I tried to mention that you can switch it's placement with Sidewinder if RNG is good, but so long as you don't have a NIN or RDM, you can really pop them anywhere you want (which I should also add in there).

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Sidewinder should more or less be used within raid buffs of any kind—the easiest to align it with is TA simply because they share a cooldown duration, which I believe is the default that the standard opener uses. I know that this was the case in SB, and that BRDs have always advocated to fit Sidewinder into TA for that extra boost on it.

PP is an oGCD, so it’s usage is relatively free in terms of where you can place it. Just make sure you don’t clip your next GCD while using it. It’s very basic: most of the time, you use it at 3 stacks; when the song is about to end, blow your remaining stacks with in the last couple of seconds. The biggest caveat is the “if EA is coming up concurrent with the next DoT tick”, and even that is something I am learning as a BRD main since before PP was even a thing!

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I can see the concern with the Cascade/Fountain fall combo and the second move gaining a Flourishing proc, but that just means you have to delay Flourish by 1 GCD. Unlike other duration buffs, it only takes about 8-10 seconds to use all of the Flourishing GCDs back to back, so it being pushed back by 1 GCD shouldn't be that bad. This is all assuming that the fight has 100% uptime, since there are several fights where you have to delay buffs during add phases (unless they're extremely tanky or you know you're going to have the buff up gain by the time the boss becomes targetable again) or there are moments of downtime (i.e. Maelstrom in E3S).

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With regards to the bolded part, you aren’t accounting for the fact that you’re supposed to fit in a Standard Finish into your TF/Devilment window as well, which takes 5 seconds to perform. You also aren’t accounting for having to prioritize Saber Dance if you have an abundance of Esprit, which is very possible during a TF window in any party that is competent.

With Saber being 600 potency versus the 350 potency of Fountainfall and the 300 potency of Reverse Cascade/Bloodshower (standard usage of Rising Windmill usually has it outside of Devilment, but inside TF—but it’s 250 potency for reference), you prioritize it first if you are going to risk overcapping on Esprit otherwise (and it’s used at 80 gauge regardless in most instances—I think the only reason you would delay it is if one of your Flourished procs is going to fall off otherwise). It’s not uncommon to have to Saber Dance before you fit in your SF into your burst, as it’s very easy to go from half Esprit to full within that 5-second time frame; and overcapping on Esprit means overcapping on resources. Which means lost damage. There are even instances where you have to delay SF for a Saber Dance.

So I don’t think you can just say that the procs only take 8~10s to use and that it won’t be a big deal when there are multiple factors that may cause you to prioritize other GCDs over them during your bursts.

Keep in mind that some fights don’t have downtime like E3S does (E2S, for example), so your delayed Flourish—which can be from 1 GCD to 2 GCDs if you get procs off of both Cascade and Fountain in your proposed openers—will persist throughout the encounter due to having no opportunity to try and “fix” it. I don’t think the natural Drift of our dances is enough to rectify this issue fully.

If you are forced to delay it again further down in your rotation due to lucky procs, this hurts you even more. You never delay TF to try and realign Flourish, as that hurts buff alignment; which, in turn, hurts the raid. So you have to consistently deal with it being misaligned by those 1 or 2 GCDs. At most, I think that you can delay TF if there are mechanics happening that might prevent multiple party members from receiving the buff; but these are situations where you work with your group so that you collectively hold buffs for a few seconds—and no more than that, from my understanding of it all. And this is in fights with 100% uptime and no downtime/phase transitions/bosses jumping and flailing about doing stuff.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Ultimately, the reason for all of this work is an obsession I have with strengthening my TK rotation. Much as I'd like to just do the strongest monk opener, it's pointless if doing so mess up raid buff alignment and everyone else's damage.

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I don’t know much about MNK because I don’t main melee jobs, but I haven’t heard anything about actively using TK (save for niche scenarios where you’ll for sure lose GL, but I think it’s so easy to manage now that that’s no longer a huge issue) now that they’ve changed PB back to 120s. I know that it had far more versatility with the 60s PB.

I checked the pinned openers in the Balance, and didn’t see it being used anywhere. I’m assuming that these openers are the most optimal openers with regards to basic buff alignments (given the nature of the theorycrafters in there and all the work they do), so I guess I’m not sure why you’re wanting to use it or design a rotation/opener around it that may not even be optimal.

I can understand it wanting to have viability, and maybe that’s where this all ultimately stems from; but if using it comes at the sacrifice of damage/sacrificing optimization, I don’t think its worth it. I don’t think it’s a skill entire openers and raid buff alignment should be changed to cater towards, either. But this is just my opinion.

I’m not trying to be rude or mean in any way, but some of the things I have read and your reasonings just seem illogical based on what I’ve studied about the jobs I main. I don’t claim to be any sort of expert—I still say that I am constantly learning and optimizing—but I think I have a fair grasp on the concepts around BRD/DNC either way.



I don’t know if you saw what I said above about the healers, but I think you should brush up on job mechanics for all roles before further theorycrafting, as you mistakenly advocated for a 1m 45s pre-pull for AST on the pretense of fishing for Seals and a pre-pull card. But since you cannot obtain Seals outside of combat, so this is entirely unnecessary (and pre-pulls like this is why the developers made Seals combat only—after all, they really hated the 60s pre-pull for HW WAR with Infuriate; and they changed Hide to reset Mudras in SB because NINs were asking for 20s or more pre-pulls for Huton). There’s still much I think you could stand to learn.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Your Machinist opener is insanely inefficient. Nobody should use it, ever. You don't even seem to know how the abilities work because you're wasting massive amounts of potency by not using enough Heat Blasts, not enough Gauss Rounds / Ricochets and delaying Drill for absolutely no reason.

If you want to know about actual Machinist openers, I just released an optimization write-up on them on the Balance Discord and it's been added to our guide:

The Balance 5.X Machinist Guide

Machinist is not the only job you got wrong. All of your openers are off down to the the logic behind your raid buff alignment. I urge you to join our discord and talk to other theorycrafters if you want to improve your work because currently it's a far cry from anything optimized.

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So, before we even get to the Machinest mechanics, why exactly is my buff alignment logic off? As I stated way in the beginning, may classes have a lot of build-up to their openers, MCH included (the battery gauge).

That said, I do realize that I might have 1 or 2 less heat blasts than I should and there are places where I should have put in a Gauss round and Ricochet rather than where I did, so I'll need to re-edit it later. Thank you for the feedback.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

So, before we even get to the Machinest mechanics, why exactly is my buff alignment logic off? As I stated way in the beginning, may classes have a lot of build-up to their openers, MCH included (the battery gauge).

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I’m guessing what Kitfox is getting at is that you don’t do all this build up first, and then pop raid buffs. If you delayed raid buffs and pots for when jobs finally had all their stuff built up, it would get a little ridiculous. I believe most are centered around how quick Trick Attack can be put up on the boss, along with things optimal for the specific job (e.g., DRG uses Dragon Sight, Litany, and a pot before it applies Chaos Thrust, which is the first combo it performs because you always want to get DoTs up and ticking on a boss ASAP; DNC and BRD both pre-pull potion because it catches all of their burst that way, and their burst ends with the conclusion of TF and RS respectfully, which pre-pull pots catch).

However, I’m not a theorycrafter, so if I am incorrect, I will allow Kitfox to correct me. :)

Why are you potting so late in your RDM openers? Why are you telling people to hold Embolden so late for their melee combo when it's primary use is as a party buff? Why are you using Enchanted Reprise at all in the second opener when it's primary use is for movement? The usage of Reprise there pushes Scorch outside of the personal buff Manafication has. These Red Mage openers are horribly inefficient, did you do any math at all to come to these conclusions?

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[Disclaimer: As of writing this, I’ve only managed to level one class to 80 and have therefore been unable to personally test all of these openers, nor have I been able to find anyone to help test them due to a Catch-22 situation (most people I ask want data before they try them, but I need people to try them to get data. Or they list all sorts of reasons why they won’t work and no suggestions on how they could work). As the amount of sks and sps each player/class has varies, I’ve used a 2.42 recast time as a base. Even the slowest speeds of 2.44 should also be able to work well with every opener. Finally, I’d like to stress that it’s not required to follow these openers. Feel free to use whatever works best for you.]

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Oh, it's based completely on feelycraft and you don't have any experience with the vast majority of jobs.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

With regards to the bolded part, you aren’t accounting for the fact that you’re supposed to fit in a Standard Finish into your TF/Devilment window as well, which takes 5 seconds to perform. You also aren’t accounting for having to prioritize Saber Dance if you have an abundance of Esprit, which is very possible during a TF window in any party that is competent.

So I don’t think you can just say that the procs only take 8~10s to use and that it won’t be a big deal when there are multiple factors that may cause you to prioritize other GCDs over them during your bursts.

I don’t know much about MNK because I don’t main melee jobs, but I haven’t heard anything about actively using TK (save for niche scenarios where you’ll for sure lose GL, but I think it’s so easy to manage now that that’s no longer a huge issue) now that they’ve changed PB back to 120s. I know that it had far more versatility with the 60s PB.

I checked the pinned openers in the Balance, and didn’t see it being used anywhere. I’m assuming that these openers are the most optimal openers with regards to basic buff alignments (given the nature of the theorycrafters in there and all the work they do), so I guess I’m not sure why you’re wanting to use it or design a rotation/opener around it that may not even be optimal.

I can understand it wanting to have viability, and maybe that’s where this all ultimately stems from; but if using it comes at the sacrifice of damage/sacrificing optimization, I don’t think its worth it. I don’t think it’s a skill entire openers and raid buff alignment should be changed to cater towards, either. But this is just my opinion.

I’m not trying to be rude or mean in any way, but some of the things I have read and your reasonings just seem illogical based on what I’ve studied about the jobs I main. I don’t claim to be any sort of expert—I still say that I am constantly learning and optimizing—but I think I have a fair grasp on the concepts around BRD/DNC either way.

I don’t know if you saw what I said above about the healers, but I think you should brush up on job mechanics for all roles before further theorycrafting, as you mistakenly advocated for a 1m 45s pre-pull for AST on the pretense of fishing for Seals and a pre-pull card. But since you cannot obtain Seals outside of combat, so this is entirely unnecessary (and pre-pulls like this is why the developers made Seals combat only—after all, they really hated the 60s pre-pull for HW WAR with Infuriate; and they changed Hide to reset Mudras in SB because NINs were asking for 20s or more pre-pulls for Huton). There’s still much I think you could stand to learn.

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I think you have it mixed up there. Tech Step/Finish takes 5.5-6 secs to perform while Standard Step/Finish should only take 3 seconds (all the step moves are on a 1 second CD).

I still think that having to delay Flourish for 1 or 2 GCDs (assuming you also have a Saber dance that needs to be used) isn't that bad since it doesn't take more than 8 seconds to use all of the Flourish moves.

I've written a guide on the 5.0 TK rotation and it's perfectly viable, especially if your RNG is good with 6SS and TK crit/dh procs.

I'm not offended in any way, nor do I think you're being mean, but I don't see the point in completely scrapping an idea just because there are a couple of flaws to it that can be fixed. I really appreciate the feedback and have gleamed things from this. I also had no idea AST couldn't gain seals outside of combat, so that's also something I'll need to edit. Thanks a bunch! :)

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

many classes have a lot of build-up to their openers, MCH included (the battery gauge)

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All classes have much less wind-up than you think. Almost every job begins their burst within 2-5 GCDs, not after 25-30s. Raid buffs are started immediately on pull with the longest ones and the shortest ones like Trick Attack coming out roughly around 10s to match them. Delaying causes massive dps losses for all classes because you're delaying your biggest hits for no reason. There's no 10-15s raid buff delay, you start them at 0s. You can see the most updated timings for all buffs here.

You would know this if you actually played the classes. You shouldn't try to theorycraft openers unless you have a deep understanding of how the classes work and have considerable experience playing them. Almost all theorycrafters focus on a single class because it takes that much effort and time to properly research things for optimal rotations and openers. Trying to jump into every single class without even having them leveled to cap is a hopeless endeavor.

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Originally Posted by HinokaTheRed

Why are you potting so late in your RDM openers? Why are you telling people to hold Embolden so late for their melee combo when it's primary use is as a party buff? Why are you using Enchanted Reprise at all in the second opener when it's primary use is for movement? The usage of Reprise there pushes Scorch outside of the personal buff Manafication has. These Red Mage openers are horribly inefficient, did you do any math at all to come to these conclusions?

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It can be uses as a party buff just fine at the end as several classes have openers that extend past TA going by my raid buff alignments. If you use it early, not only do you not have it up at its strongest for VerHoly/VerFlare and Scorch, but it happens long before any other melee classes uses their big hit moves (like DRG going into LotD within the opener). Reprise is used to manage you black and white gauge so that it doesn't go over 50 before Manafication. I did make a mistake with the VerAero before the Swiftcast as it should be VerThunder and I'm not 100% on the Manafication buff times, but the simple solution is to put it after the second Reprise and double weave it with Corps-a-corps. Just not 100% on if doing so will put you below 40 gauge for one of the two bars depending on VerFire and VerStone procs.

And yeah, I did state that a lot of this is touchy-feely, so I appreciate the feedback!

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I think you have it mixed up there. Tech Step/Finish takes 5.5-6 secs to perform while Standard Step/Finish should only take 3 seconds (all the step moves are on a 1 second CD).

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This is incorrect: Technical takes 7 seconds and Standard takes 5 seconds. Technical and Standard are both on the GCD (they are not oGCDs), but when you use them, they lower your base GCD to a 1.5s GCD. Meaning you have 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Standard (for a total of 5s) and 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Technical (for a total of 7s). The Step and the Finish are both bound by the 1.5s GCD change, so the entire process of a Standard Step and a Technical Step are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

No offense, but you don’t even have DNC unlocked. Why are you attempting to theorycraft on it?

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I've written a guide on the 5.0 TK rotation and it's perfectly viable, especially if your RNG is good with 6SS and TK crit/dh procs.

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I don’t know much about MNK and I won’t comment on it purely on that fact. However, have you tried to speak with actual MNK theorycrafters about if your guide is viable or not? Have they provided you with feedback? I’m not talking about just random MNKs, but the MNKs that do the number crunching; the best MNKs in the game. I highly recommend you speaking with them about what you have written.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

I'm not offended in any way, nor do I think you're being mean, but I don't see the point in completely scrapping an idea just because there are a couple of flaws to it that can be fixed. I really appreciate the feedback and have gleamed things from this. I also had no idea AST couldn't gain seals outside of combat, so that's also something I'll need to edit. Thanks a bunch! :)

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I guess I’m coming from the point of view that theorycrafters have already figured out the most mathematically viable and most mathematically optimal options for openers and rotations. And, again, I also think that you need a deeper understanding of things before you begin to theorycraft. The mistakes I have pointed out just with 3 of the jobs are fairly basic things that all theorycrafters should know. There may be more that I missed or didn’t comment on. So I really think you should take Kitfox’s offer to join The Balance and probe the minds of the theorycrafters in there before further number crunching and guide writing is done.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

And yeah, I did state that a lot of this is touchy-feely, so I appreciate the feedback!

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I think this is the biggest flaw: theorycrafting isn’t done around feeling; it’s done around math and numbers. Optimization is all about what is mathematically optimal to do, not what “feels good” to do or what a particular player wants to do.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

All classes have much less wind-up than you think. Almost every job begins their burst within 2-5 GCDs, not after 25-30s. Raid buffs are started immediately on pull with the longest ones and the shortest ones like Trick Attack coming out roughly around 10s to match them. Delaying causes massive dps losses for all classes because you're delaying your biggest hits for no reason. There's no 10-15s raid buff delay, you start them at 0s. You can see the most updated timings for all buffs here.

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Again, why is it required that raid buffs go out as early as possible? The way I have it mapped out it the beginning, TA still comes out while most raid buffs are up, with Embolden being the exception due to how it works.

Using MCH as an example, if TA comes out at 10 secs and it takes at least 15 seconds to build up enough battery gauge, and it takes 5 seconds for the Automaton to start attacking, how are you getting Pile Bunker off within the TA window?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don’t know much about MNK and I won’t comment on it purely on that fact. However, have you tried to speak with actual MNK theorycrafters about if your guide is viable or not? Have they provided you with feedback? I’m not talking about just random MNKs, but the MNKs that do the number crunching; the best MNKs in the game. I highly recommend you speaking with them about what you have written.

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From what I know, he actually did consult some of our monks, he was given feedback and numbers, even simulated dps differences for the rotations and reasons why they were inferior, but all of that was readily ignored and he continued to call their guide "perfectly viable."

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Again, why is it required that raid buffs go out as early as possible? The way I have it mapped out it the beginning, TA still comes out while most raid buffs are up, with Embolden being the exception due to how it works.

Using MCH as an example, if TA comes out at 10 secs and it takes at least 15 seconds to build up enough battery gauge, and it takes 5 seconds for the Automaton to start attacking, how are you getting Pile Bunker off within the TA window?

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You don't get a Pile Bunker in the first Trick Attack, you get it in the second one. This is why delaying raid buffs is bad, by the time you get one delayed use with your schedule, more optimal timings get a second use much faster while also doing much higher personal dps.

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It can be uses as a party buff just fine at the end as several classes have openers that extend past TA going by my raid buff alignments. If you use it early, not only do you not have it up at its strongest for VerHoly/VerFlare and Scorch, but it happens long before any other melee classes uses their big hit moves (like DRG going into LotD within the opener).

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But as Kitfox stated, jobs start their burst much earlier than your openers assume they do, and in a normal party of players using openers sourced from The Balance (which the majority of people doing Savage and above would be looking at), Embolden would come out much too late to be of any use to anyone else.

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Reprise is used to manage you black and white gauge so that it doesn't go over 50 before Manafication. I did make a mistake with the VerAero before the Swiftcast as it should be VerThunder and I'm not 100% on the Manafication buff times, but the simple solution is to put it after the second Reprise and double weave it with Corps-a-corps. Just not 100% on if doing so will put you below 40 gauge for one of the two bars depending on VerFire and VerStone procs.

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Manafication's magic damage buff lasts 10 seconds and delaying even 1 GCD pushes Scorch right out of the window. For what it's worth, Reprise is very rarely useful as a tool to manage your mana, and it is 100% not worth it in the opener. It's potency is too low for anything other than using it for movement to the point where dumping excess mana before a Manafication is achieved by using Enchanted Moulinet in single target when your mana is above 69/69 as Manafication is about to come off cooldown.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is incorrect: Technical takes 7 seconds and Standard takes 5 seconds. Technical and Standard are both on the GCD (they are not oGCDs), but when you use them, they lower your base GCD to a 1.5s GCD. Meaning you have 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Standard (for a total of 5s) and 1.5s > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1 > 1.5s for Technical (for a total of 7s). The Step and the Finish are both bound by the 1.5s GCD change, so the entire process of a Standard Step and a Technical Step are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

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This actually caught me in the beginning to. When it comes to weaponskills, the math is reversed. So for example, if your GCD were 2 seconds and you multiplied it by 5, the number you get is actually when the 6th GCD comes out. So with Standard Step, it goes 1.5+1+1= 3.5. That's when you can use Standard Finish. Same thing goes for Tech Step/Finish.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

From what I know, he actually did consult some of our monks, he was given feedback and numbers, even simulated dps differences for the rotations and reasons why they were inferior, but all of that was readily ignored and he continued to call their guide "perfectly viable."

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I see. If that is true, then that is unfortunate.

OP, I highly recommend you take what these players have to say seriously and to heart. I know that they work really hard on everything they do, and they probably know more about these jobs than you and I do. So I definitely don’t think the way to go about diving into theorycrafting is to ignore the theorycrafters and their math.

I also think you should play the jobs before you attempt to theorycraft them. Again, I mean no offense, but you haven’t even unlocked DNC, yet you’re trying to argue with me about optimal play and how the job actually works when I have been playing it since the expansion dropped and reading up on every bit of information the DNCs release that I can find. My performance may not be as great as theirs and I have a long way to go towards optimizing, but I like to think that I understand the theory and how the job plays a bit more than someone who hasn’t unlocked it.... I won’t attempt to speak on in-depth things about jobs I don’t know about purely because it’s likely I’d be wrong about it. So I really think you should consider doing the same.

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

This actually caught me in the beginning to. When it comes to weaponskills, the math is reversed. So for example, if your GCD were 2 seconds and you multiplied it by 5, the number you get is actually when the 6th GCD comes out. So with Standard Step, it goes 1.5+1+1= 3.5. That's when you can use Standard Finish. Same thing goes for Tech Step/Finish.

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Technical is 7s and Standard is 5s for the entirety of them. As you cannot use any GCDs until your Standard Finish and Technical Finish resolve due to them being bound to the GCD—and since we are talking about GCD skills here with Flourished procs and Saber Dance—that is why I have stated that the durations are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

I’m not even discussing the math here—I know that the hit for SF and TF come before the 5s and 7s (at 3.5s and 5.5s, respectfully). I’m talking purely about the duration of the skills themselves, which I think is important to note provided the conversation we were having about Flourish, utilizing the Flourished procs, and Saber Dance utilization.



EDIT: And I have hit the posting limit:

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Originally Posted by Oxdarock

Yes. It is important. Which is why I started that it takes at least 8 seconds to use all four Flourish moves back to back.

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But you also ignored that you have to fit in a SF into your TF windows (eating up 5s of time), and that you also have to keep an eye on Saber Dance and use it so as to not overcap on Esprit, which can generate at an alarmingly high rate during TF with any party that is competent at what they do. The whole point I was making was that, by delaying your Flourish, you are inviting the potential of pushing Flourished procs outside of your major burst window (Technical/Devilment), which is a DPS loss. Your opener invites blatant delay of the skill compared to the standard opener that the DNC theorycrafters have provided, which is why I think it’s inefficient.

The standard opener for DNC is as follows:

-15s: Standard Step > Step > Step
-2s: Potion
On pull: Standard Finish > Technical Step > Step x4 > Technical Finish > Flourish > Rising Windmill > Devilment > priority based on (in order of priority): Saber Dance, Standard Finish, Flourished Procs (Fountainfall, Reverse Cascade, and Bloodshower) while weaving in FD3s and FD1s.

The only variant of this is if you have Dance Partnered with a DRG or a NIN, which favor a Devilment before you start Technical because it lines up better with their burst as opposed to the Devilment after Rising Windmill. As DNC is a support job, you adjust to support your partner with Devilment usage.

It’s also worth to mention that this opener lines up with all standard job openers so that Technical falls in line with both raid buffs and any personal buffs jobs may have, allowing them to have a strong burst.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Technical is 7s and Standard is 5s for the entirety of them. As you cannot use any GCDs until your Standard Finish and Technical Finish resolve due to them being bound to the GCD—and since we are talking about GCD skills here with Flourished procs and Saber Dance—that is why I have stated that the durations are 5s and 7s, respectfully.

I’m not even discussing the math here—I know that the hit for SF and TF come before the 5s and 7s (at 3.5s and 5.5s, respectfully). I’m talking purely about the duration of the skills themselves, which I think is important to note provided the conversation we were having about Flourish, utilizing the Flourished procs, and Saber Dance utilization.

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Yes. It is important. Which is why I started that it takes at least 8 seconds to use all four Flourish moves back to back.

there's so much wrong with the Machinist opener that I can't even wrap my head around it.

As a raider and a black mage i can tell you that you're very misinformed about the job if you think that thats an acceptable opener(in what world is it acceptable to do that many fire 3s and blizzard 3s in an opener?).

Do you even take into account astral fire buffs? Or the PPC math of the opener you show in your doc?

Thats just blatant misinformation that some players out there are going to use thinking that its an acceptable thing to do and i shudder just thinking about it.

If you want to do openers for classes then please learn how the classes function and the math behind their openers and stop misleading people, thank you.

Its clear that you put a lot of work into this and i dont deny that but please do research into the classes first. :/

For anyone thats reading this: Here are several good, widely-accepted openers for Black Mage:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/592613187245834260/601881264227614730/No_B4_Opener.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/592613187245834260/601881351561412608/Double_Sharp_Opener.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/592613187245834260/601881623905959936/Sharp_Fire_Opener.png

With the top one dealing the most damage and the ones below dealing lower.

Oh good lord what fresh hell spawned those RDM openers? Reprise's pps is lower than normal casting and it wastes about 92 potency of mana per cast for no reason, the potions are later than hell, and Embolden being that late is pointless. You're just wasting half your resources at that point and scratching your head wondering why your RDM's damage is low, but hey! At least Tornado Kick's slightly stronger!

you're pushing a guide full of openers on jobs you have zero knowledge about on top of building them around a monk opener you know isn't optimal...? why? in particular, those drg openers are a hot mess -- people have mentioned not holding buffs for as long as you have in these openers so i won't even bother with that but... why in the world, in this second drg opener, after the second full thrust, do you use botd instead of your combo finishers and missing out on a raiden thrust? and in the first opener, the dot isn't even applied until 9 gcds in as opposed to the standard opener at 3 gcds... it's also better to delay going into life as your buffs are up by then after the opener, in contrast to the openers you have in this document.

i'm not a numbers cruncher by a long shot, but i do know my job... :x

You're putting way too much effort for a troll post my man. Still got a good laugh from it though, cheers OP!

Your drg openers are a mess. Holding buffs for too long and going into first life way to early. Both buffs are placed after terribly unoptimized gcds. You have jumps and gierskogul before disembowel is applied and completely skip the first chaos thrust dot. Big nope.

Blm has you casting almost as many filler spells as f4s... you even hard clip to swiftcast despair at the end, that costs more gcd time than just hardcasting the despair. I’m genuinely curious if you’ve ever played a blm or even understand some of this game’s fundamental mechanics.

... you have Dragoon breaking a combo in your first opener. Under no circumstances barring dungeons mass pulling should you ever do that on any job, let alone Dragoon which now has a continuing chain thanks to Raiden Thrust. Furthermore, Geirskogul that early messes all raid buffs. Honestly, I could go on at how horrendously inefficient both Dragoon openers are but there isn't a point. The whole thing is just... wrong. Delaying buffs like this will not only lose you casts but they don't line up with anything.

I also want to know why are you theorycrafting on jobs you don't even have unlocked, let alone reached 80 on? What this amounts to is a lot of... nonsense if I'm to be frank. None of these openers are efficient, you have multiple combo breaks and buff alignments are all over the place. No offense, but you really shouldn't be providing opener suggestions without showing you're capable of performing well on each job.

I’m sorry but your ninja openers are missing a lot of oGCDs making it very not optimal. And your 10th (technically 8th) GCD trick- I’m not counting 8 or 10 GCDs before trick, do you know what a GCD is? If you count the meisui, bunshin and the potion, yes I count 10. I think you need to learn the games lingo before using them in an “optimal opener guide”.

I read your disclaimer, and I appreciate the effort you attempted.

This is that one "Vaccines Cause Autism" thing that people are going to quote for YEARS. Please add to the top of your document, in BOLD that none of this is tested and its mostly just you. That disclaimer is not enough.

Getting through Raubahn Savage was easier than getting through all this.

This opener is god awful for NIN. Even just the use of kassatsu then delaying three GCDs before actually casting a ninjutsu makes me gag.
That almost 50% of a Jutsu lost.

Im sorry but this is absolutely terrible. If you do want trick lined up at 20seconds in there is still so much wrong with this.

If you want to actually do theory craft for this game you need to increase your understanding of every class, spend more time in the balance, and think about mathing out potency rather than feely crafting your way through things.

I only logged in to tell you that your DNC openers (especially the Improv one) are so bad they made my head hurt.
If it turns out to be stage 4 cancer I wouldn't be surprised.

0/10 bad troll.

Not even going to bother critisizing the DRK opener on the other stuff but what in heavens name is the reason for using hard slash into hard slash in those 8th GCD LS openers? You are aware that Bloodspiller doesn't break combos right? You can fit a full Delirium worth of Bloodspillers between 2 combo hits without breaking it.

Heya op.
Samurai here.
Your opener for samurai is... Not very good.
11th midare.
For one you added in hagakure which isn't worth using in a opener and just a DPS lost.
Then you use a unbuffed jinpu shinten for no reason.
Then you use meikyo to fill every sen instead of just two of them making it take longer to do the second midare.

Your 9th midare not very good as well.
You basically just cycle through your rotation then midare THEN use bana and use meikyo/tsubame?
Like I don't understand the purpose of these openers.

PSA don't use these openers if you are new. These are bad.

There's so much wrong with the DRG opener it's hysterical. Not even, actually. There's so much incorrect with this "guide" in GENERAL, it's quite something.

Thanks to feedback I've received, I've come to understand that the way I've presented my theory crafted openers was done a bit hastily. I've since edited out a lot of text and have left these as an ambiguous list of "possible" openers that people can try out rather than a guide with factual information. No extra data aside, there were indeed mistakes with some openers here and there. I will continue to update the list as I'm able to get more jobs at lvl 80 and do parse runs to see where these openers stand compared to current openers/rotations. I appreciate everyones feedback and hope to hear more info on anyone who tries these openers out of curiosity.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

This opener is god awful for NIN. Even just the use of kassatsu then delaying three GCDs before actually casting a ninjutsu makes me gag.
That almost 50% of a Jutsu lost.

Im sorry but this is absolutely terrible. If you do want trick lined up at 20seconds in there is still so much wrong with this.

If you want to actually do theory craft for this game you need to increase your understanding of every class, spend more time in the balance, and think about mathing out potency rather than feely crafting your way through things.

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created an account to agree with this.

NIN feels bad as it is this expansion we don't need this opener to drag us down further!