BLM is very strong right now, make no mistake. It has been streamlined a great deal, has great movement tools and more options in fluidity of rotation than it ever had. In fact, this might be the first expansion (including 2.0 proper) that the class really was designed properly at the very start, rather than needing 3-4 buffs over the course of months (if not an entire year, I'm looking at you Stormblood) to really get into the groove of its alleged identity.
However, in light of the recent MNK changes, [spoil]Seriously? 30 seconds of free positional requirements every minute ON TOP OF 2 charges of True North??? Jeez why don't you just remove the positionals from the job completely and call it a day then[/spoil] and looming on the horizon SAM and SMN buffs/changes, I am very concerned that it is going to lose its proper place on the top of the damage output. In fact, it already has.
Let me be extremely clear about it: In a game where "raw damage" is deemed to be an acceptable class identity, the classes that only contribute raw damage absolutely must be putting out the highest damage of all the classes. It is shameful that so little thought was put into MNK/DRG relative to poor SAM, and BLM is most likely about to witness the exact same dilemma.
No massive potency buff is needed at the moment, certainly, but I propose the following quality of life adjustments that will result in higher damage output for the job overall:
-The damage over time effect from Thunder III should be 30 seconds. It's a little absurd that it isn't already, especially with the increased length of the Astral phase. This will also give an additional 160 base potency to single target Thundercloud.As far as area of effect damage is concerned, I feel like BLM is doing pretty darn well, but one thing that is frustrating at the moment is that it is a gain to forego Astral Fire III and just Flare straight out of Umbral Ice with the Umbral Heart(s). I would propose fixing this by letting Flare only utilize one Umbral Heart and letting Freeze give you two per cast. Furthermore, on paper SMN is stronger area of effect damage than BLM is, and as per our golden rule (damage-only classes should be the highest damage), this needs to be rectified.
-BLM deserves stackable procs of Firestarter and Thundercloud that do not fall off. It definitely adds insult to injury that after years of asking for this, stackable Ruin IV procs were given to SMN. I would even suggest putting these indicators on the job gauge that is so beautifully designed, capping at 3 or 4.
-Sharpcast should charge to 2 uses if not 3. This is self-explanatory with my previous suggestion.
-Manafont is good for one Flare (and Thunder IV if necessary) or one Fire IV and one Despair. The 180 second recast on this is underwhelming. Consider just making it 90 to line up with Ley Lines, or consider allowing it to also give you one Umbral Heart and 33% MP, making it good for 2 Flares or 2 Fire IVs and one Despair
I am fully braced for this thread to get a fair amount of heat, but the logic is undeniable. Power creep is a real thing, and I want to avoid it at all costs, so if taking heat for it is what is needed, then so be it.
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08-08-2019, 05:59 AMLlugenConcerning BLM Buffs/Quality of Life (yes, you read that right)
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08-08-2019, 07:14 AMVileIves
Thunder III increase would mean either more DoT clipping (making the extra duration less-useful save for buffing up the initial Thundercloud all-in-one hit) or turning back to using Sharpcast specifically for Firestarter and only ever refreshing it in Umbral.
Thundercloud is weird though, sharpcasting it is great for having it always be there for F1>T3, but feels bad when it procs again after using sharpcast on it. Likewise, feels bad if you neglect using Sharpcast on T3 to avoid wasting potential procs only for none to happen. Multiple charges of Sharpcast won't really help as much because it's usually "Every 30 seconds, hit B3>Xeno>SC>T3>B4 or if you have an excess of procs, instant T3/Xeno>SC>F1."
As for comparison against SMN, I don't know... Flare's 861 Potency + 322 for every target after the first is pretty spicy, then add in T4's 264 potency per target (471 with Thundercloud), then Foul for each 30 seconds (and some trash pulls you can start with two) for 747 with a falloff of (672>598>523>448>373 to all others). Freeze and Fire III's role in the AoE rotation are pretty basic, they serve just to boost the main damage spike as their own damage is neglible and since it is a constant flow of damage versus SMN's burst-windows of trances... I have yet to see a SMN maintain higher AOE damage than a BLM. They might be able to do a few quick bursts (Akh Morn, Death Flare, Revelation, Aerial Blast all have lower potency than Flare and Foul) but are effectively time-gated, their DoTs are weaker than T4 if they use Bane to spread them and their spammable AoE is a whopping... 90 Potency because of Ruination. -
08-08-2019, 08:13 AMTulzscha
People really will complain about anything, huh.
Entitled much?Quote:
I am very concerned that it is going to lose its proper place on the top of the damage output.
I get wanting to see improvements for your job but holy crap you come off as such a snowflake. -
08-08-2019, 08:16 AMKabooa
People should stop confusing quality of life with buffs.
To clarify: There is no QoL here. It's all pure buffing. Extending thunder is a buff because it no longer matters where you refresh it.
Stackable, non-expiring TCloud / Firestarter is not a QoL. It's a straight buff.
Sharpcast charges is a buff.
The manafont changes is a buff.
Please note that I am not disagreeing or agreeing with what Black Mage might need in light of Monks going Ultra Instinct, only that you shouldn't try and label these as QoL, because they certainly are not.
They're straight up buffs. -
08-08-2019, 12:57 PMSequoraSMN would like to have a word with you. When you have to use an ability (egi assault) just to use an ability we’ll talk. We also have to use our ruin IV procs just to weave in our oCDsQuote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
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08-08-2019, 01:17 PMVendalwind
This is very much the wrong time to be bringing this up and being entitled.
First off:
What in the heck? are you entitled to top dps? and why so butt hurt about a class receiving love? Also you haven't lost your place. Still very much the top caster. VERY MUCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
The logic is absolutely deniable. MNK is only dealing more dps with his rdps factored in. And I'll give you that its a bit high but the rhetoric everyone spouts about pure dps always needing to be the top is bullcrapQuote:
Originally Posted by Llugen
It just is.
to say with as much sternness as you do at full potential the raw dps classes absolutely must NOT put out the same cumulative dps as a dmg utility class. Really think about it. This misconception has always blown my mind.
If rDPS classes cant achieve at top percentile MORE than pure dps classes then they are useless. The gapping should be something like 75th percentile up rDPS classes outdo pure DPS classes by a small margin. 50th-75th they are about equivalent and sub 50th pure DPS classes begin to do significantly more.
If an rDPS class is in the best spot it still needs pure DPS classes to function at its best since its dmg is partially reliant upon them. if a pure DPS class holds the top spot and utility dps classes cant keep up even in a group with 3 other highly skilled pure dps that rDPS will just get replaced with another pure.
rDPS classes having the top spot gives them a job AND makes pure DPS classes more valuable.
Having pure dps classes unsurpassable no matter the team comp makes rdps classes worthless entirely.
BLM does not need a buff right now. not QoL wise compared to other classes, and definitely not DPS wise. There are so many people in line here before BLM right now. MNK may still need to be tuned a bit more sure, but it's potential outdoing BLM is in my opinion how it should be. SAM is being done far more dirty than BLM right now, and NIN/SUM/ the whole ranged physical class are still in front of you when it comes to the balance buff check.
you are honestly better off being quiet about your job and hoping it, MNK, and DRG all dont get hit with a nerf hammer than trying to ask for more. -
08-08-2019, 01:33 PMKabooaNo. What's the point of a glass cannon if -they aren't bringing the most of your Raw damage-?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
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08-08-2019, 02:25 PMAbyssDarksI think he means in regards to rDPS, not pDPS. An rDPS char should have higher rDPS then a pDPS character, otherwise, whats the point in bringing rDPS characters?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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08-08-2019, 02:33 PMAomine1992
Well SMN sucks so yes it needs a lot of TLC we are currently being obliterated by BLM in every category except this gimmick they call Raise which is useless out side of prog. You do well over 2k more dps, much more mobile lol what more do you need. BLM is the only perfect job right now while everyone else in its caster dps role sucks in a bad way.
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08-08-2019, 03:08 PMAcidblood
Thundercloud having storable charges (that don't expire) is long overdue, and now that there is a mechanic for doing exactly that there is really no excuse.
Fire II needs to be looked at, it is almost literally useless; a shorter cast time, higher damage, and a lower MP cost would not only make Fire II useful but smooth out BLMs AoE rotation.
Blizzard II... should probably just upgrade to Freeze.
Aetherial Manipulation would be more useable in more situations if it didn't require a target. Similar to DRG Dragon Sight it could work with (as it is now) or without a target (as a short forward teleport).
Ley Lines and Between the Lines should have been a single button from the start. You can do it SE, I believe in you!
Enochian should either be passive (as is it's just busy work and a punishment) or given a secondary function (e.g. your next spell costs 0 MP).
Other than that, and overall BLM is basically perfect (which knowing SE means it's going to get butchered come 6.0 :/) -
08-08-2019, 03:12 PMKabooaIt's a weird situation, isn't it? The kicker is that Black mage literally brings nothing else to the table. Same with Samurai. So when -they- get outclassed, they're literally pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by AbyssDarks
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08-08-2019, 03:27 PMCarstienGlass cannon? Do you even know what that means? There is no glass cannon in this game, BLMs take the same damage as other casters which is more physical but less magical than melee dps. You're not a glass cannon because you're not made of glass, not fragile, get it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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08-08-2019, 03:30 PMCarstienThing is it isn't outclassed in its field, it's the highest rdps caster by a long long way. It's meta right now. Asking for buffs to a meta class is silly. I'm a MNK main and I honestly think our buffs were silly. We were already top of the pack with DRG and BLM, we didn't need buffs but 4 years of people whining about rof had an effect I guess. Now we need a nerf but BLM damn well doesn't need a buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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08-08-2019, 03:32 PMKabooaI meant to say turret.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carstien
Bad word choice on my part. -
08-08-2019, 03:32 PMCarstien
Did not mean to single you out BTW. Just noticed both posts I quoted were the same person. Apologies.
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08-08-2019, 03:34 PMKabooaAnd if it wasn't, it'd be pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carstien
But if it wasn't, it'd still be more than usable in savage, just like every other job.
If you aren't clearing savage, it's not because of the composition. Be you Black Mage, Monk, Bard, Dancer, or Ninja.
If a static is telling a ninja, summoner, or whatever, to change, I'll just say what's been told to everyone else before.
"Get a new static." -
08-08-2019, 07:00 PMLunavi
Totally agree with you, while BLM is in an OK spot right now, it could definitely help with getting a little bit of love on this department. By doing the thundercloud change alone BLM DPS could become so much more consistent and the off Sharpcast procs would actually feel valueable, especially their AoE would be greatly enhanced by this.
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08-08-2019, 07:00 PMVendalwind............In my post I literally just outlined why that wouldnt be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
If BLM rDPS at 75th Percentile and up is lower than rDPS focused utility classes then BLM will still ALWAYS have a place because its PERSONAL dps is necessary for the rDPS classes to reach their rDPS potential.
I'll say it again
When a Personal DPS class out does the rDPS of an rDPS class at top end play with its rDPS, the rDPS class is now worthless. ENTIRELY. it would be better to bring another Personal DPS class.
When an rDPS class out does the rDPS of a Personal DPS class at top play, the Personal DPS class is still mandatory and Needed for the rDPS class to hit the high ceiling. because bringing more rDPS classes would lower the overall damage potential despite their buffs stacking. Thus rDPS utility classes will ALWAYS need pure Personal DPS classes, but the inverse is not true.
Spouting that Personal Dps classes would lose their place if utility dps classes outdid them is just completely incorrect logic. -
08-08-2019, 07:02 PMLunaviSo you want BLM to go back to being a 100% useless job that no one wants to bring to content ever like they were in 3.0?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
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08-08-2019, 07:09 PMLastelli
No...if anything, BLM is currently unbalanced in that its damage output is not justified considering the damage output of the other 2 casters. Now that fflogs finally ranks based on rdps, this is pretty obvious.
Also, as others already said, some of these suggestions are not QoL improvements...they're just buffs.
The only QoL I can see for the job would be unifying LL and BTL. Everything else should stay the same.
In terms of dps, blm, mnk and drg should all be brought down a tiny bit to be honest. -
08-08-2019, 08:27 PMBurningskull
I would like Transpose to become Umbral Soul when in Umbral Ice. That's the only QoL thing I could think of.
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08-08-2019, 09:06 PMVendalwindNo. I dont want that. I want it to remain strong. The rhetoric i laid down had jothing at all to do with its current strength. BLM being able to out pDPS a nin and every other class is very much a good thing. BlM being able to out rDPS other classes thats only utility is rDPS is a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunavi
As i explained before. If BLM has more pdps than others it works synergystically with rDPS utility classes such that both perform at their absolute best. But in that moment the rDPS of the contributor should be higher. The RDPS component still is composed of effort from both players. Of both class types.
On the flip side if blm can out rdps every damage utility rdps class regardless of comp then those classes are useless. Better to just bring another BLM type instead.
At the end of this all tho im just saying BLM doesnt need a buff right now. Its strong. Let it be strong. And let the other guys get balanced out a bit better. -
08-08-2019, 09:18 PMLina_Slayer
If anything us (BLM) and MNK should get a small nerf, this arm's race Square is teasing by buffing the 4th DPS (SAM) is likely to be very harmful for the game balance as a whole, right now classes like MCH,SMN,SAM and BRD are all somewhat close in output, I know SMN needs a lot of QoL that will end up being a dps buff as well (just look at MNK), I've heard some SAM's wanting a couple of QoLs as well (again a small buff), MCH and BRD are balanced between themselves and DRG is not as OP as initially thought (a little above this pack tho), however MNK and BLM are right now in a league of their own, basically dominating every fight at every percentile, small potency nerfs that don't affect gameplay would be much smarter than trying to bring SMN,SAM and NIN to this godly level and then leave the 3 physical ranged (if the gap becomes too big not even that party-wide 1% will save those classes), RDM and maybe even DRG in a dire spot.
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08-08-2019, 10:39 PMSpeckledBurd
Here’s some actual Quality of Life I’d suggest for Black Mages AOE rotation. At max level there isn’t an AOE equivalent to Fire 3 you can use to switch to astral fire phase, and with large enough packs of adds, it’s a gain to use Flare to switch which just feels lame. At the same level you get Enhanced Freeze, I’d propose making Fire 2 Grant Astral Fire 3 and Remove Umbral Ice so Black Mage can always get two proper flares off in AOE.
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08-08-2019, 10:58 PMLunaviThe problem with this logic is that if BLM doesn't out RDPS other classes no one will want to bring them as selfish DPS are 100% dependent on their own performance to deal damage, which is hidden information before the run starts. This means that from a good player's perspective it is always better to, considering equal rDPS, to bring a class that is more support oriented as if that person plays poorly at least they can carry them up better. This is part of the reason why selfish jobs have to bring higher rDPS so that people will consider the risk of adding them to the party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
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08-08-2019, 11:48 PMVendalwind...incorrect. the p4oblem with your logic is ... its not logic its emotion based.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunavi
This is a team game.
Selfish dps have the most free mindset because they are in control of their damage output. Regardless of if you feel thats true or not.
RDPS classes rely on other classes, but can f themselves AND others if they screw up. They have far more weight on their shoulders because as a team works if one selfish screws up timing and misses a raid buff its 1/4 group loss. If the buffer screws up it 4/4 loss.
Your logic is circular.
Step by step.
"selfish DPS are 100% dependent on their own performance to deal damage"
So are rDPS 100% self reliant in their ability to augment the damage of others AND themselves. Difficulty in timing is a thing for some rdps classes.
"This means that from a good player's perspective it is always better to, considering equal rDPS,"
Mathmatically this is literally incorrect. Support characters have more fallability if balanced equally with a selfish dps inherant in their possessing more variables and more screw up potential. Your above quote is literally wrong. Because of this variability the damage cieling needs to be higher to even slightly validate the risk as the floor is also lower. And again as a team its a rise together fall together thing.
"if that person plays poorly at least they can carry them up better."
If an rdps plays poorly you literally bring everyone down. Neither statement proves anything other than the fact that all players have to work as a team.
"selfish jobs have to bring higher rDPS so that people will consider the risk of adding them to the party."
Haha
Hahahha
The idea that selfish jobs are higher risk.
Im tired of this. Stop being selfish and look at the team dynamic mathematically and logically. At first i wasnt trying to be rude. But its so obvious you are failing to think logically about this because you want your big #1 dps spot.
Im tired and done with this. Final attempt
If rdps classes perform worse even in a perfect scenario with a perfect team in terms of the total dps they bring to the table they are worthless compared to any selfish dps.
If a selfish dps brings slightly less capped potential dps it doesnt matter because the max potential rdps of the rdps class is still only reachable because of the selfish dps's contribution.
I.E. a monk will perform worse with a dancer and a nin in the group. Cause they literally cant maximize eachothers buffs.
Which is why a mnk wants to be paired with SAM or DRG because they get greater returns. (And why sam needs to be brought in line with the other two more)
Likewise a NIN will always want to be in a team with a BLM and others that utilize his burst well.
RDPS classes by their very nature bring pDPS slots with them when they are in a good spot balance wise.
PDPS classes close slots for other rdpss if they cant keep up. -
08-09-2019, 12:04 AMVendalwind
Math example very simplified but still proves the point; two scenarios:
pdps classes higher
BLM brings 10.5k dps.
rDPS class brings 10k dps buffs blm by 400.
Rdps total is 10.4 since he claims that portion of blm dmg. Blm is still 10.5 Total group damage is 10.9k
Blm brings 10.5k
Sam brings 10.45k his rdps is higher than rDPS potential.
No interaction required and total dps is higher at 20.95k conlusion. Dont bring an rdps class.
Alternative scenario. Rdps class higher potential.
RDPS class deals 10k personal. Buffs others by 5%
Rdps class with another equivalent rdps class deal 10k each. Total with buff 21k.
Rdps class pairs with pure dps class that deals 10.5k on its own
10k plus 10.5k plus .5125k as raid dmg.
The rdps potential has now become 10.5125k dps which is higher than the 10.5k the selfish class is capable of. BUT that higher dps is only possible because of the higher dps class enabling the rdps classes buffs to be better used.
Conclusion: meta would be to have rdps class with pure dps class.
Do you see how that works? Rdps potential needs to be higher than pure dps potential because then the rdps fosters team unity. If this isnt the case pure dps rules supreme and tosses rdps to the wind as wasteful diminished returns. -
08-09-2019, 12:07 AMVendalwind
Cant edit since im on phone. got my math slightly wrong should be .50125k with the 5% buff in mind. But regardless its still apparent the best result is through a combined team comp rather than just rdps.
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08-09-2019, 02:34 AMAkava
BLM, MNK and DRG are overpowered at the moment. That or every other DPS job is significantly underpowered, take your pick. Either people are misunderstanding Vendalwind or they simply want to be overpowered.
The idea of balance is that every dps job has their place. Right now, MNK, DRG and BLM are the best choice in every situation. They bring the most damage, even when you include buffs. Right now, Dancer does about 14% less damage even when you include the damage they bring with both standard step, technical step and devilment. That's not even remotely acceptable.
And don't say that gap is because of how mobile physical range are or how its harder to keep up time on a caster or a melee. You don't lose 14% up time in any fight. If you do, your strat needs to be adjusted to not screw over your team.
Selfish DPS should never be providing more raid DPS than a utility job. They should however, crush it when it comes to personal DPS. -
08-09-2019, 02:46 AMGUkraine
Good joke. I'm a BLM main alongside SMN and BLM is op. The last thing we need is any QOL that allows us do do our faceroll rotation easier and top the meters without any effort.
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08-09-2019, 02:57 AMKabooaExcept what's stopping you from bringing -another- 10k job that buffs by 5%?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
Why not -only- bring the 10k jobs that bring a 5% buff?
See the problem?
Hey, look, the Summer's only 1% behind the Black Mage! Great Balance! Oh, wait...why use a Black mage when you can bring the Summoner who also has an emergency raise in addition to their nearly equivalent RDPS?
Why use a Samurai when the Monk's nearly equivalent RDPS also brings along Mantra?
If the Black Mage is 10.5k in your example and another job buffs it by 400, then it's going to buff another 10k job by about 380. That other job is going to in turn buff you back by 380.
20,760 vs 20,900.
Oh but wait, that other job brings Raise. Or Healing Up. Or All Damage Reduction.
If you think any of those is outclassed by 140 dps you need to rethink your baselines. -
08-09-2019, 03:02 AMLina_SlayerThis is why DNC is a step in the right direction (but then it unfortunately came undertuned lol), more single target buffs are good for the game, or else we risk a repeat of SB's "stack 4 jobs that can give 5,10,2 or anything raid-wide every X seconds, while we make whellchair memes with the "selfish" jobs"Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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08-09-2019, 04:25 AMLlugenQuote:
Originally Posted by Carstien
The point of this thread, if you read the OP carefully, is preemptive in nature. Should they decide to buff SAM/SMN in a similar fashion that they decided to buff MNK (in other words, with utter disregard to the implications of their brazen decisions), BLM is going to suffer significantly. If the other classes are getting adjusted (which they are) then BLM needs to be adjusted as well, otherwise it will be obsolete.
This is spelled out pretty well in Kabooa's most recent post.
Also, I have no problem with Between the Lines being a different button than Ley Lines, this job already has so few buttons. I'm really not sure why that keeps coming up. Transpose and Umbral Soul need to be two separate buttons as there are niche times you want to transpose into Fire and Firestarter, furthermore, how would you be able to enter Ice from Astral during downtime..?
I don't remember who said it but the idea behind the 30 second Thunder III is with having the Thundercloud proc have no timer (just like Ruin IV) in mind. Not sure if that wasn't clear. Alternatively I'd like to see Thundercloud either be additive to 60 seconds rather than refresh to 24, or add the remaining potency of the previous DoT to the initial potency of the new Thundercloud, but I've harped about those changes enough already I think.
Also as an aside, they stated in the recent Live Letter that SAM is tuned to benefit from raid buffs, which obviously BLM benefits from buffs as well, however as it stands now there are zero magic damage only raid buffs and at least two physical damage only raid buffs, not to mention that SAM loses no uptime from movement (save for having to leave the boss which is pretty high priority to avoid for strats) and also has great tools to handle this. Do consider these factors in your assessment if you think that SAM should be doing stronger damage than BLM in perfect conditions. -
08-09-2019, 03:24 PMVendalwindThe math was simplified to make the idea as simple and clear as possible. If you are willing to do the math for a full party and see the total effects you will see that it works effectively how I explained in an 8 man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
ALSO note that I mention dmg utility classes. This would not include utility thats brought for reasons exterior to damage. That i thought i made pretty dang clear by literally saying damage utility rDPS based classes time and time again.
The reality is even more stark with buffs being around 1.6% and pure dps classes sitting at ~15% higher baseline dmg. The best group right now is undeniably BLM, MNK, DRG, BRD/MCH (because of the forced 1% increase to compose with all three roles in mind)
If that forced 1% didnt exist the best group would be 4 MNKs. and not because of his rDPS component (which is valuable) but because of his current pDPS component being so high as well.
I used two people to explain what was happening and made the gap much much smaller than it is to simplify things. The reality is BLM is at 2-3k personal dps ahead of NIN or DNC Resultant still 1-1.5k above them in rDPS. and the contribution from trick is less than 5% i simplified the buff as well to show a theoretical unreal scenario where my statements still held true. the 5% came from me condensing the idea of having 4 rDPS classes together and the actual party gains from each. NIN is if perfectly played at maximum about 1/6th of 10% = 1.6%.
Thats the theoretical number.
In reality and practice tho the best clear group with a nin in it for titan had NIN rDPS at ~1.2k/79.7k = ~1.5% which was a 91 percentile NIN log
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/X9KmN...pe=damage-done
at 90th percentile BLM dps is literally 3.4k above NIN in titan. Thats utterly ridiculous. BLM is literally 29% higher. 29 freaking percent. There is no feasible way in the world that NINs cumulative 1.6 theoretical% buff could ever account for that difference even with 7 dps in mind (7*1.6=11.6) in mind.
My big number 5% was already done with 4 players in mind condensed into one, and even when the number is that high the difference is negligible.
Im not in the mood to do all the math again. I have actually done it before to check myself. But if you really want me to I will sit down and do it again sometime. Looking at the most optimal combinations in the current game purely mathmatically, and then also calculating theoretical buff composed groups with rDPS scores higher than regular.
The statement holds true.
The game will give more classes slots if rDPS classes can out rDPS selfish dps classes.
If selfish dps classes have higher rDPS as well, then a very distinct and absolute pure dps meta is the reality.
EDIT: (the math here is bad. its not this simple, but it still sufficiently makes my point) -
08-09-2019, 04:25 PMVendalwind
F--- it I did it again anyways...
Cause thats the kinda weirdo I am.
based on current savage raids I place my theoretical hoped for setup with these numbers. This does not directly account for small utilities such as shield samba, ease of play, or the kinda dumb ranged tax. This is what I'd like the game variance to be closer to to promote healthy play between each class. These numbers would be near unattainable except for with perfect play on everyone's part. But they should line up kinda like this to promote the most balance.
entirely personal DPS classes
-BLM, MCH, and SAM at 14k dps Abbreviated PURE
raid DPS classes with varied buff strengths placed at ~13.1K with a variance buff of 1.5% (higher than it currently is now for everyone but DNC)
-NIN, MNK, DRG, DNC, BRD abbreviated RAID
Utility DPS classes
12.5k and a .5% contribution, intentionally lower with raise in mind
-SMN, RDM. abbreviated UTIL
Other classes contribution 2 TANK 7k dps per
2 HEALER 6k dps per for a total of 26k exterior dps.
Scenarios analyzed. Optimal play in mind
4 PURE 14x4 +26k = 82K Strong but less classes fit this category, no reliance on anyone but oneself. thus its second to:
4RAID 13.1k + .97k (1.5% of 39.4 + 26) per = 14.07 *4 + 26 total = 82.28 Stronger since 5 classes hit this catergory, inspires slightly more varied class play by a marginal amount. harder to obtain maximum value due to interplay and aligning difficulties. cause each person relies on everybody else for the full amount.
2PURE 28k total
2RAID 13.1 + (1.5% of 28+26.2+26)~1.203k = 14.3kper = 28.6k total
Cumulative Total: 82.6k Strongest. Easier to obtain number (by a small margin) than the 82.28 of full RAID type
2PURE 28K
1RAID 13.1k +1K from group (1.5% of 28+12.5+26) (equivalence to PURE, but if one PURE switched to RAID total dmg would be marginally less)
1UTIL 12.5k + ~.35k from group (1.5% of 28+ 13.1k+26)
Cumulative Total: 80.85k with raise ability Loss of 1-1.5k to bring raise Utility. Difficulty equivalent to 2RAID 2 PURE group to maximize.
To me these are the theoretical gaps that would best balance the game. making every party desire at least 1 PURE and at least 1 RAID to perform better, but with the perfect group being a 2 RAID + 2 PURE composition. Since there are fewer PURE classes PURE is higher value. BUT RAID is slightly better total rDPS when accompanying pure.
Obviously these numbers would have to be adjusted for each content level, which is part of why balancing is so hard, BUT the point being note that the biggest gap in pDPS is from PURE to UTIL and its only 1.5k (instead of the near 2k amount it is right now) and the biggest DPS gap is RAID to UTIL being about the same 1.5k. Also note the .9K difference between PURE and RAID in terms of pDPS, this compared to the literall as much as 3.5k it is right now at max play on titan savage.
In this Scenario RAID has the biggest potential. BUT PURE is still the most desired class, as optimal groups will always desire 2 of them. So even in this situation the 3 PURE type classes are still more desirable than the 5 RAID type classes. Only type that takes a hit does so only when looking at speed runs because a 1k hit is now much more minimal than how the game currently punishes SMN and RDM.
BLM additionally will ALWAYS be the highest single value class EVEN IN THIS SCENARIO because guess what? its the only Caster PURE thus every single group should have one.
If you do the math with PURE even the slightest bit stronger immediately the 6 RAID types lose their value immensely as the best theoretical group would be a 4 PURE group. This is precisely why MNK, DRG, BLM are the meta right now. because they fit this scenario, while everyone else (SAM included) is too marginalized dps wise to be worth it. and the 4th slot just goes to a whoever. -
08-09-2019, 04:36 PMMakrarIts more like BLM has 1300 rdps over Ninja or 10% more at 90% titan savage, no where near 29%Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
I believe 10% is too much and Ninja needs a buff, however fake and/or misleading maths like this is not helping the conversation in any shape or form.
Numbers dont need to be made up, exaggerated or taken out of context in order to make a point -
08-09-2019, 04:40 PMShurrikhanLet's be very, very clear here. Are we meaning rDPS as in solely indirect contribution, or total contribution? Of course an rDPS job should have more indirect contribution than a pDPS job, just as a pDPS job should have greater personal contribution for avoiding that indirect contribution. But, their total contribution should be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by AbyssDarks
I see no reason why classes which include indirect contribution should have to have greater total contribution than those that do not. You ought play that particular job because, though their total contribution is equal, you prefer their playstyle (including the coordination of their rDPS) over that of the jobs without indirect contribution. Simple as that.
Apart from that the equation should be simple: if you're a better player than average for your party, you will provide faintly more by avoiding jobs with indirect contribution, and if you're a worse player than average for your party, you will provide faintly more by taking a job with the greatest amount of indirect contribution for your given composition. When your skill is equal to that of your party, the two should be dead even. -
08-09-2019, 05:00 PMVendalwindThat was looking at personal dps, not raid dps. AND i did make a mistake. I was looking at 99th at the time and thought I was looking at 90th. I am sorry about that misinformationQuote:
Originally Posted by Makrar
For reference at 99th percentile BLM is 15.1k and NIN is 11.8k right now on fflogs. 29% was slightly exaggerated, the number is 27.9% but its not far from the 99th percentile truth.
Also at 99th the rDPS gap is ~2k
14.7BLM
12.66NIN
16.6% gap
This is all looking at high end tho where the differences are the most notable. I personally.... will probably never break 90th percentile even as a NIN if im being honest with myself.