tank gear

so switching out my 418 gear for 440 i lose over 60 tenacity. the gear id the forgiven's gauntlets of fending and swapping for ronkan gauntlets of fending...:mad:

Tenacity is kind of a dead stat anyway. The less of it you have, the better.

You will gain 113 defense and magic defense when you switch to the 440 gauntlets.

And you can simply meld materia to cap out tenacity at 260 on them. Just run two leveling roulettes with tank bonus and you have that materia.

I really don't see any issue here.

Tenacity ia a bad stat anyway, you're not really losing anything.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Tenacity is kind of a dead stat anyway. The less of it you have, the better.

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This just isn't true. Tenacity is the jack of all trades stat. Sure it doesn't make a HUGE impact, but that's because it...can't. If it increased all of the stats it affects by too large of an amount, it'd be kind of broken. I personally meld it because I've always a more defense-focused player and I love having the extra mitigation.

Have tanked hundreds of Ex primals ( mainly Suzaku, Seiryu, Inno, Titania, and Lakshmi) while they were all relevant and have had nothing less of great results from having the extra mitigation.

I won't tell anybody how to meld though since we all have (I hope) our own unique playstyles, but this misconception that Tenacity is worthless needs to stop...

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Originally Posted by TheForce

I won't tell anybody how to meld though since we all have (I hope) our own unique playstyles, but this misconception that Tenacity is worthless needs to stop...

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Except it kinda is...it's not parry levels of bad but it's still far from optimal unless you're pushing world first progression and have it stacked through the roof. It will always fall behind any other secondary.

Crit > Comfy SkS > Det > Ten (WAR)
Direct Hit > Determination > Critical Hit > Tenacity (PLD)
Comfy SkS > DH > Det > Crit > Ten (GNB/DRK)

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Except it kinda is...it's not parry levels of bad but it's still far from optimal unless you're pushing world first progression and have it stacked through the roof. It will always fall behind any other secondary.

Crit > Comfy SkS > Det > Ten (WAR)
Direct Hit > Determination > Critical Hit > Tenacity (PLD)
Comfy SkS > DH > Det > Crit > Ten (GNB/DRK)

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It is if you focus only on damage.
Mitigation and damage combined are bigger number than what direct hit could give you, and bonus self healing on top of that.

Most tank gear already has a lot of tenacity on it anyway. And melding anymore (if you can) is pointless. I can't tell anyone how to play their class, but if that's how you wanna roll then you do you.

60 tenacity is roughly .002% mitigation and increased damage.
The 113 armor/magic resist difference is roughly .5% mitigation.
Not to mention the 17 strength and 3 vitality difference. It might not be much, but every bit helps considering less damage is taken the faster enemies are killed.

It is so funny that the stat the devs made for tanks are the one stat most tanks avoid like the plague.
Either they should remove it or make it more useful. "But if you make it more useful tanks will use it instead of other stats" well wasn't that the point of this stat, that tanks should use it?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

It is if you focus only on damage.
Mitigation and damage combined are bigger number than what direct hit could give you, and bonus self healing on top of that.

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Ok...and your point? Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Tenacity can offer. The faster the boss dies the less damage it does to you.

https://i.imgur.com/1sWEWek.png

Those are some awesome mitigation numbers, right?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

It is if you focus only on damage.
Mitigation and damage combined are bigger number than what direct hit could give you, and bonus self healing on top of that.

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The only win condition to a battle is to get the enemies HP to 0.
Because of this, mitigation cant ever come at the cost of DPS.
The only mitigation that matters, is the one which actually enhances DPS.

If your tanks die, they do 0 dps.

This is why Holmgang works as a mitigation tool.
It doesnt hurt DPS, the tank lives, and healers arent wasting resources they spend on DPS.

But if the tank was going to survive the TB, even w/o holmgang, then it mitigates 0 dmg, and might require healers to waste resources they wouldnt have had, if the tank used rampart instead.

This is why TEN is essentially a bad stat.
It doesnt help the tank survive enough to add DPS from the healers, if anything, it costs DPS.

You only ever need to mitigate enough to survive, and not cost healer GCDs/DPS resources. (Now that SCH has energy drain, it technically can be a hindrance to use lustrates on tanks, where as before 5.05, it wasnt)

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Originally Posted by Soraki-Muppe

It is so funny that the stat the devs made for tanks are the one stat most tanks avoid like the plague.
Either they should remove it or make it more useful. "But if you make it more useful tanks will use it instead of other stats" well wasn't that the point of this stat, that tanks should use it?

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Pretty much exactly this. There's *always* going to be a best stat, one that you'll want to stack above all others. You might as well make it that stat that was made for tanks and can only be *used* by tanks.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Ok...and your point? Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Tenacity can offer. The faster the boss dies the less damage it does to you.

https://i.imgur.com/1sWEWek.png

Those are some awesome mitigation numbers, right?

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"Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Teancity can offer".

That's not how that works. Been here since beta, therefore I have seen many, many different types of players. I've constantly watched how they interact with other players, and the general attitudes they all have, and I gotta say, this "DPS is absolutely everything and nothing else matters" mindset is straight poisonous to this game. And what's worse is that the individuals I've seen in game that hold this belief tend to be so annoyingly sensitive about it...the moment that you question them about it they start to get insult, degrade, and attack you as if you were a piece of trash. Yoshi P would be ashamed of it honestly.

What you said here is not good logic and I hope that any players who are confused about this topic do not heed this advice. Killing a boss a couple seconds faster isn't going to make Tankbusters, regular aoes, or stack aoes hit any softer, and those are the actually group-killers, all of which Tenacity helps against. A boss being alive for a few more seconds to squeeze in maybe one or two auto attacks isn't going to hurt a group more than the Tank just all around taking more damage due to not having the extra mit, no matter how relatively miniscule the difference in damage may seem.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

all of which Tenacity helps against.

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I'm sorry, are we looking at the same numbers? I've also been around since beta, not sure what that has to do with anything. Go back to any raid or Ex trial...the faster you kill it the less mechanics it's able to do. They're on a set rotation. Yes some mechanics are triggered by HP, others go off at set times and you can completely skip some by doing more damage. We're talking the whole group working together for optimal performance and part of that is proper melds so that you can eke out every bit of advantage possible. That doesn't shave off just a couple seconds, that can shave off a couple minutes. So where is the harm in trying to be optimal?

Rough math from a post on Reddit shows Tenacity to be 0.1% increase to DPS/Healing/Damage taken for every 33 points. Basic 450 gear aiming for Tenacity and melding as much as possible without wasting melds puts you around 2357 with food. That puts you at roughly a 7% reduction in damage taken (admittedly my math could be wrong!)...doesn't seem that beneficial to me. It's also worth noting that Tenacity only increases the amount of healing you do, not the amount of incoming healing received.

You're acting as though we're getting this constant stream of attacks that are hitting rapid fire and are going to decimate us in a matter of seconds if we don't stack extra mitigation. The reality is that the actual attacks that are going to kill us are scripted and we can plan for them and hit a defensive CD that will mitigate far more than anything Tenacity can. At the same time the healer should be planning their CD usage. This argument is as old as time, but what it boils down to is the only mitigation you need is whatever is going to allow you to survive the tank buster. It doesn't matter if you're surviving with 1 HP (Holmgang) or 20k HP. As soon as the buster hits there should be a heal coming your way. Depending on the amount of incoming damage that may be a benediction/tetra or a basic cure.

Just because you seem to enjoy melding tenacity everywhere you can doesn't make it an optimal stat to have. Sure, it's better than parry as it does increase DPS slightly but it's far from optimal. But that doesn't make my advice incorrect.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

"Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Teancity can offer".

That's not how that works. Been here since beta, therefore I have seen many, many different types of players. I've constantly watched how they interact with other players, and the general attitudes they all have, and I gotta say, this "DPS is absolutely everything and nothing else matters" mindset is straight poisonous to this game. And what's worse is that the individuals I've seen in game that hold this belief tend to be so annoyingly sensitive about it...the moment that you question them about it they start to get insult, degrade, and attack you as if you were a piece of trash. Yoshi P would be ashamed of it honestly.

What you said here is not good logic and I hope that any players who are confused about this topic do not heed this advice. Killing a boss a couple seconds faster isn't going to make Tankbusters, regular aoes, or stack aoes hit any softer, and those are the actually group-killers, all of which Tenacity helps against. A boss being alive for a few more seconds to squeeze in maybe one or two auto attacks isn't going to hurt a group more than the Tank just all around taking more damage due to not having the extra mit, no matter how relatively miniscule the difference in damage may seem.

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A couple of seconds do matter because it gives your group cushioning for things such as mistakes. Tenacity has very miniscule help in things that are actually dangerous if you are in a group are all doing their job. Stack markers? Yeah Healers AoE all that, you tanking less damage to that to them is a giant "whatever" as its better to have Determination that both scales better with damage and amount healers heal you for. TB? If you know how to plan your cooldown Determination is again better for helping healers top you off. Raid wide AoEs should never be killing anybody if use all of the tools at your groups disposal. Are you mitigating/shielding properly? As a tank you should never be dying to a raid wide AoE... healers don't concentrate on you during that, they are focused on the squishies that have less HP. Again, its better to have DET so you get healed more by thier AoEs. Det Trumps Tenacity in every category because it scales better than it and increases your damage more than a small defensive bonus you don't notice. If you are progging in ultimate? Maybe consider running tenacity but if you get to the point you are strugging on damage because that content is pushing all players to be doing your absolute best? You are going to meld offensive stats. There is no content in the game at this moment that requires tanks to have that small passive damage mitigation and unitl that happens ore tenacity is buffed to be scaled well, tanks shouldn't be melding it.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Ok...and your point? Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Tenacity can offer. The faster the boss dies the less damage it does to you.

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The difference between any of the Substats on the tanks isn't going to make such a huge difference on boss kill times. And that was when you had parry instead of Tenacity.

Mitigation wise, higher item level is always better than any number of tenacity because of the increased defense and vitality. In pre-Savage/Phantasmagoria gear at least, the differences between tenacity and other stats aren't significant in either mitigation or DPS (not sure about WAR because they want crit and that works a bit differently). The good thing about direct hit melds is that you'll gain the full benefit from each meld because the gear itself doesn't have any.

The difference between 1500 and 2500 tenacity mitigation is 0,031% and the damage multiplier goes from 1.033 to 1.064.

For 500 direct hit, the chance is 2% and the expected damage is 1.005, when for 1500 direct hit, the chance is 18.6% and expected damage 1.0465.

If you want to maximise your output, follow this advice:

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Crit > Comfy SkS > Det > Ten (WAR)
Direct Hit > Determination > Critical Hit > Tenacity (PLD)
Comfy SkS > DH > Det > Crit > Ten (GNB/DRK)

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It will not reduce your mitigation in any significant number. Then again, if you want to meld tenacity where it can be melded, that won't significantly reduce your DPS either. Just make sure you have the right amount of skillspeed if you're a GNB or DRK.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Ok...and your point? Higher damage is better mitigation than anything Tenacity can offer. The faster the boss dies the less damage it does to you.

https://i.imgur.com/1sWEWek.png

Those are some awesome mitigation numbers, right?

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Yes more damage means less damage taken because the run is shorter, but have you took into the account that tank is not main damage dealer, and he makes only a fraction of a total group dps?

If we take more realistic approach and put a tenacity all melds and direct hit all melds tanks next to each other, then :
Tenacity tank has 1560 more tenacity,
This amount of tenacity on a tank that already has 2500 tenacity translates into 4.7% additional mitigation and 4.7% additional damage and a self healing bonus probably 4.7% as well.
D hit has 1560 direct hit stat translates into 6.5% additional damage

I took data from this site.
http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/dh/

What does these numbers really means is that, tank with needs 4.7% healing less which combined with better healing bonus probably sits at around 5%, but makes 1.8% less damage than a tank with direct hit melds. This 5% in mitigation could be easily used by a healers and let them a little more damage than usually they do, evening out on the total group DPS between a group with a tenacity and d hit tank.

Thats why i am going full tenacity, it gives more than we all expect.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

If we take more realistic approach and put a tenacity all melds and direct hit all melds tanks next to each other, then :
Tenacity tank has 1560 more tenacity,
This amount of tenacity on a tank that already has 2500 tenacity translates into 4.7% additional mitigation and 4.7% additional damage and a self healing bonus probably 4.7% as well.
D hit has 1560 direct hit stat translates into 6.5% additional damage

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Can you link the two gear sets you compared so we can check these numbers? And what 'self healing bonus' are you referring to?

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Originally Posted by Taika

Can you link the two gear sets you compared so we can check these numbers? And what 'self healing bonus' are you referring to?

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My calculation went off by 2 materia, its 1440 stats from melds not 1560. These are all materia included into eq, and i compared when someone has all tenacity and all direct hit.
So its 4.3% for damage, mitigation and hps for tenacity and 6% for direct hit, with 1.7% difference between them.
I took 2500 tenacity as a example, because i have 2000 on my undergeared tank so it is safe to say it will be about 2500 without any materia.

Self healing i guess its what has been proven to work, which does not affect the other player healing. But if it is, then its even better than i thought it is.

For the record, det:ten is roughly in 17:22 ratio. ITOW you need ~1.29 ten for 1 det point in context of the damage. Or - ~0.77 det for 1 ten.

http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/det/
http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/ten/
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/

Healing and damage taken comes in bursts, an extra 3% defence by actively seeking tenacity will not make a noticeable difference. Autos will still be healed with regens and tank busters will be burst healed through. As long as youve lived through the tank buster its fine, and unless you are seriously misplaying 3% extra mitigation wont be saving you

I played with the tank DPS calculator (http://bit.ly/XIV50TANKDPS) a bit, comparing level 450 Paladin (Midlander Hyur) sets (Titania weapon, full Eden left side, Innocence accessories + one Eden ring on right side) with full Tenacity (or Direct Hit when Tenacity was capped) melds or full Direct Hit melds.


This is with Tenacity melds:
https://i.imgur.com/f1h9tzv.png



And this is with Direct Hit melds:
https://i.imgur.com/jyxKuEs.png

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Healing and damage taken comes in bursts, an extra 3% defence by actively seeking tenacity will not make a noticeable difference. Autos will still be healed with regens and tank busters will be burst healed through. As long as youve lived through the tank buster its fine, and unless you are seriously misplaying 3% extra mitigation wont be saving you

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Yeah, this is a great point to keep in mind. :)

450 ilvl accessories doesnt have second melding slot, there is a catch.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

450 ilvl accessories doesnt have second melding slot, there is a catch.

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Yes, the comparisons were done with the allowed meld slots. :)


Still the full DH offers 2.65% higher DPS with 2.5% less mitigation.


Edit: I was corrected below, DH offers around 0.99% higher DPS, was looking at the wrong numbers.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Still the full DH offers 2.65% higher DPS with 2.5% less mitigation.

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Which points out just how minor the difference is. 2.5% is within the expected variance of the RNG.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Which points out just how minor the difference is. 2.5% is within the expected variance of the RNG.

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Yup, as I said before, if you want to maximise your output, go for the damage stat melds, it will not reduce your mitigation in any significant number. And then again, if you want to meld tenacity where it can be melded, that won't significantly reduce your DPS either. Just make sure you have the right amount of skillspeed if you're a GNB or DRK.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Yup, as I said before, if you want to maximise your output, go for the damage stat melds, it will not reduce your mitigation in any significant number. And then again, if you want to meld tenacity where it can be melded, that won't significantly reduce your DPS either. Just make sure you have the right amount of skillspeed if you're a GNB or DRK.

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Each expansion I kind of hope substats get tweaked so they're actually stronger as you stack them. For four, it's linear, so your largest gains are when you have less.

For one, it's geometric scaling but you can't get enough for it to hit the points where it gets stupid (Haste) and for most jobs it just causes problems.

And lastly, Critical's double scaling just means it's somewhere in the middle.

I think if you stack one to the detriment of others, you should get a better deal out of it. Tenacity and Piety could use a quick retuning as well. If you want to be the ironwall or the healer who can handle everything going wrong, I think that should be a viable gearing choice. Everyone can still be the '1337 dps tank' but aiming to be the durable tank shouldn't be the downside, or rather, non-choice it is right now. I think stats should matter, rather than just being able to blindly up iLevel and be fine.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Yes, the comparisons were done with the allowed meld slots. :)


Still the full DH offers 2.65% higher DPS with 2.5% less mitigation.

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You are reading that wrong btw. The damage increase is higher for the Tenacity BY 2.65%. Direct Hit doesn't add a flat modifier to your overall damage, just the 25% increase when it procs. The DPS increase from Direct Hit is greater, but not the flat damage.

The DPS difference between the two being compared is less than 1% in favor of Direct Hit.

((7401.35-7328.81)/7328.81)*100%= .98979...% damage difference.

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Originally Posted by Typhoria

You are reading that wrong btw. The damage increase is higher for the Tenacity BY 2.65%. Direct Hit doesn't add a flat modifier to your overall damage, just the 25% increase when it procs. The DPS increase from Direct Hit is greater, but not the flat damage.

The DPS difference between the two being compared is less than 1% in favor of Direct Hit.

((7401.35-7328.81)/7328.81)*100%= .98979...% damage difference.

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Thanks for that, was the first time using this sheet and did so in a hurry and didn't even notice that for the 'damage increase' number to work how I thought it would the numbers would have had to be the other way around....whoops! :D Your math is definitely right!

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Each expansion I kind of hope substats get tweaked so they're actually stronger as you stack them. For four, it's linear, so your largest gains are when you have less.

For one, it's geometric scaling but you can't get enough for it to hit the points where it gets stupid (Haste) and for most jobs it just causes problems.

And lastly, Critical's double scaling just means it's somewhere in the middle.

I think if you stack one to the detriment of others, you should get a better deal out of it. Tenacity and Piety could use a quick retuning as well. If you want to be the ironwall or the healer who can handle everything going wrong, I think that should be a viable gearing choice. Everyone can still be the '1337 dps tank' but aiming to be the durable tank shouldn't be the downside, or rather, non-choice it is right now. I think stats should matter, rather than just being able to blindly up iLevel and be fine.

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But its already increasing mitigation and healing, with all three combined tenacity gives the most out of all stats.
Its just that it wont increase the damage directly but will affect a healer that is healing us from damage.

Tank taking for example 10k dps, mitigates it to 9550 damage with all tenacity melds, receiving it for 5 seconds means tank with tenacity melds will take 47.75k damage, and 50k without it.
A healer will have to heal him from this damage, if both healers used the same move to heal us for 50k, a healer healing tenacity tank will heal him for 52.25k.
That means tenacity tank will be 4.5k HP more efficient than a regular tank, increasing his total mitigation by 9%.
This is actually a lot, and will have an effect on the healers, especially in dungeons.
Thats of course assuming tenacity actually works on healing from the healers and is not only increasing self healing.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But its already increasing mitigation and healing, with all three combined tenacity gives the most out of all stats.
Its just that it wont increase the damage directly but will affect a healer that is healing us from damage.

Tank taking for example 10k dps, mitigates it to 9550 damage with all tenacity melds, receiving it for 5 seconds means tank with tenacity melds will take 47.75k damage, and 50k without it.
A healer will have to heal him from this damage, if both healers used the same move to heal us for 50k, a healer healing tenacity tank will heal him for 52.25k.
That means tenacity tank will be 4.5k HP more efficient than a regular tank, increasing his total mitigation by 9%.
This is actually a lot, and will have an effect on the healers, especially in dungeons.
Thats of course assuming tenacity actually works on healing from the healers and is not only increasing self healing.

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Wrong. Tenacity only increases the amount of healing you do to yourself or another. It does not change incoming heals from another source. So melding it to increase the amount of healing received from a healer is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Wrong. Tenacity only increases the amount of healing you do to yourself or another. It does not change incoming heals from another source. So melding it to increase the amount of healing received from a healer is pointless.

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The thing is, i havent seen anyone actually test it in this expansion.
In game description says about about hp restored and only that, does not specify what hp restore it really means.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

The thing is, i havent seen anyone actually test it in this expansion.
In game description says about about hp restored and only that, does not specify what hp restore it really means.

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Already been tested after expansion dropped.

To the people extolling the virtues of tenacity: Please stop spreading false information. It is not, has not been, and will not be the go-to stat for tanks doing /any/ type of content until such time as SE decides to tweak it to be competitive with the more offensively oriented secondaries. No, not even for progression purposes. DPS is indeed everything in this game. Healers are expected to DPS whenever possible, just as tanks are expected to pull acceptable numbers at all times. That is the nature of FFXIV. Attempting to play a tank any other way is in fact a disservice to everyone you party with.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

To the people extolling the virtues of tenacity: Please stop spreading false information. It is not, has not been, and will not be the go-to stat for tanks doing /any/ type of content until such time as SE decides to tweak it to be competitive with the more offensively oriented secondaries. No, not even for progression purposes. DPS is indeed everything in this game. Healers are expected to DPS whenever possible, just as tanks are expected to pull acceptable numbers at all times. That is the nature of FFXIV. Attempting to play a tank any other way is in fact a disservice to everyone you party with.

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98% of your damage comes from playing the job right.

Meld whatever you want.

The difference is so minor that in the end it doesn't even matter. I find it funny how ppl go apeshit over someone wanting to meld Tenacity, like its this big catastrophe. Yes its less dps (ever so slightly nothing that will change anything) and yes you take less damage, regardless what you may assume that this part doesn't matter it certainly doesn't hurt either when the penalty is not larger than it is.

Personally I'm pentamelding Tenacity for savage progression because A) it helps the healers slightly when you actually have 10% permanent dmg reduction, and B) its dirt cheap to meld so win/win. Once I'm getting savage upgrades I'm not gonna meld Tenacity onto them but for the pentamelded gear, why the heck not. It's not like you will fail the fight over the tank doing 150 less dps than they could with different melds, and to be honest, no-one gives a damn about first clear dps as long as the boss dies. But on the flipside i have survived plenty times where i would have died without it.

This damage first mentality that ppl seem so obsessed over is really all in your heads.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Tenacity is kind of a dead stat anyway. The less of it you have, the better.

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I can totally disagree with you ...

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Originally Posted by Thela

B) its dirt cheap to meld so win/win. Once I'm getting savage upgrades I'm not gonna meld Tenacity onto them but for the pentamelded gear, why the heck not.

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Nevermind which materia but, I don't understand when people make this argument about one materia being cheaper.

I have never paid for a single VIII materia and I have about a dozen+ VIII tenacity AND direct hit materia via quests, drops, and those little clusters from tank in need leveling and alliance roulettes.

How is it you all need to buy materia for your melds?