DPS jobs feel busier now

RDM is my main and it’s largely unchanged. But SMN, BLM, NIN, and SAM all feel busier than they were in SB. Particularly SMN and NIN. I’m working my arse off playing those jobs, and sometimes after a trial, I’m exhausted.

BLM and SAM have had some minor tweaks and BLM is somewhat smoother. But the rest are seem to require more work.

Am I just playing these jobs wrong?

Nope. Both NIN and SMN are now very very busy jobs. NiN being the highest apm class in game right above MCH and SMN having all sorts of things to juggle

I'm glad there are still some busy jobs since some people find those more enjoyable. I was surprised actually that they let ninja have this many fun new additions and changes instead of streamlining the complexity out of it. I think the best designed jobs are the ones which feel busy and engaging yet are still compact on the hotbars without button bloat.

Basically the devs forgot the lessons of Heavensward and made the classes too complicated with too many layers again, some classes got easier, some classes got a lot harder, most classes had at least one layer added to them, some several, and they feel worse overall for it, especially as mechanics in encounters get more and more complicated as the arms race of encounter design gets progressively more and more insane.

They want some jobs to be busier than other to make something for everyone.

BLM is busy now? It didn't even change much either aside from adding Despair (which is a glorified Fire IV tbh), using Thunder procs in the middle of AF phase and then using Xenoglossy instead of Foul in your single-target rotation which shouldn't count.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

BLM is busy now? It didn't even change much either aside from adding Despair (which is a glorified Fire IV tbh), using Thunder procs in the middle of AF phase and then using Xenoglossy instead of Foul in your single-target rotation which shouldn't count.

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I think he was commenting on BLM as one of the smoother classes now with SMN and NIN feeling busier.

After re-reading idk. It seems sameish to me.

Most DPS keep getting bloat added to them. An additional gauge or proc to watch for each expansion. They keep piling them up.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Most DPS keep getting bloat added to them. An additional gauge or proc to watch for each expansion. They keep piling them up.

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Yep, it's not that it's becoming more difficult but more like becoming tedious just to have too many things on the hotbars.

I really appreciate SE not tuning for bad players on EVERY class, but leaving some for those with more interest in smart and skillful play. now they just have to get the numbers up to where it pays off. A NIN should contribute more rDPS total than an easy class, for example.

Instead of hitting 3 buttons you hit 4-5, 1st world problems.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

Yep, it's not that it's becoming more difficult but more like becoming tedious just to have too many things on the hotbars.

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Sounds like a good problem to me.
Believe me, you don't want the wow direction of a 2-3 button rotation, very very boring.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Sounds like a good problem to me.
Believe me, you don't want the wow direction of a 2-3 button rotation, very very boring.

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A problem is a problem, doesn't matter whether too simplistic or too tedious. "WoW" is such a cop out. At that point I might as well just say hey WoW has mounts, let's get rid of mounts. We don't want it to become WoW.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

A problem is a problem, doesn't matter whether too simplistic or too tedious. "WoW" is such a cop out. At that point I might as well just say hey WoW has mounts, let's get rid of mounts. We don't want it to become WoW.

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huh, i have seen you in several posts and you use the same argument, always, everytime, its almost a cop out. Dont you have anything to add? because it seems you dont, you have nothing but complains, and that is fine and dandy but you offer no solutions. Exactly what is your point again?

One of the biggest complaints people have about FF14 is how slow combat feels. I think it's just SE listening to that. They need to focus on the feeling of early game, as that's when the combat actually feels that way. They could also tune up the classes that currently have a ton going on to smooth out the combat flow.

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Originally Posted by reyre

huh, i have seen you in several posts and you use the same argument, always, everytime, its almost a cop out. Dont you have anything to add? because it seems you dont, you have nothing but complains, and that is fine and dandy but you offer no solutions. Exactly what is your point again?

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Another fanboy, ignoring all the posts of suggestions regarding specific problems I made and only bringing up the "complaints". Just some example, I suggested reducing GCD to make the the flow of combat more smooth and fast paced, make skills connect with each other more instead of feeling like each skill is an individual action, making trick attack only increase damage to the Ninja and buff Ninja DPS, and consolidating single target/aoe to a toggle on/off for many of the aoe skills that are just carbon copy of their single target counterparts, and suggestions to revamp of Meditation/Shoha. But hey, as expected of another fanboy, ignoring everything except what fits their ideals, just like I stated.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

Another fanboy, ignoring all the posts of suggestions regarding specific problems I made and only bringing up the "complaints". Just some example, I suggested reducing GCD to make the the flow of combat more smooth and fast paced, make skills connect with each other more instead of feeling like each skill is an individual action, making trick attack only increase damage to the Ninja and buff Ninja DPS, and consolidating single target/aoe to a toggle on/off for many of the aoe skills that are just carbon copy of their single target counterparts, and suggestions to revamp of Meditation/Shoha. But hey, as expected of another fanboy, ignoring everything except what fits their ideals, just like I stated.

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Wouldn't we just have people complaining about having to turn them on and off for AoE? Especially if bosses summon up a lot of adds I can see that being the new "Stance dance" complaint for some fights.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Wouldn't we just have people complaining about having to turn them on and off for AoE? Especially if bosses summon up a lot of adds I can see that being the new "Stance dance" complaint for some fights.

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People are always going to complain, I personally rather stance dance than having to set up an entirely separate hotbar just for aoe that do the exact same thing as their single target counterparts, and it would reduce bloat.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

A problem is a problem, doesn't matter whether too simplistic or too tedious. "WoW" is such a cop out. At that point I might as well just say hey WoW has mounts, let's get rid of mounts. We don't want it to become WoW.

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Oh boy, you again with your silly "logic" ? I have seen you in many posts saying the exact same non sensical thing, always with someone roasting you afterward... and here you are again ?

People dislike simple rotations because they are boring as fuck. Period. They tend to bring up WoW because a) it's the most common MMO and therefore a reference and b) it's an example of what simple rotations can do, aka "ruining classes". The fuck are you babling about with your mounts. Smell like a troll to me.

I should add that some of your points are interesting, like "make skills connect with each other more instead of feeling like each skill is an individual action" and "aoe that do the exact same thing as their single target counterparts". As for the stance dance... hmm, don't know about that. Can you give me an example of a "bloated class" and a "nicely designed" one in this game ?

Just... please... don't bring up your "delete mounts because WoW has it LUL" argument, it makes you sound silly.

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Originally Posted by ColaSama

Oh boy, you again with your silly "logic" ? I have seen you in many posts saying the exact same non sensical thing, always with someone roasting you afterward... and here you are again ?

People dislike simple rotations because they are boring as fuck. Period. They tend to bring up WoW because a) it's the most common MMO and therefore a reference and b) it's an example of what simple rotations can do, aka "ruining classes". The fuck are you babling about with your mounts. Smell like a troll to me.

I should add that some of your points are interesting, like "make skills connect with each other more instead of feeling like each skill is an individual action" and "aoe that do the exact same thing as their single target counterparts". As for the stance dance... hmm, don't know about that. Can you give me an example of a "bloated class" and a "nicely designed" one in this game ?

Just... please... don't bring up your "delete mounts because WoW has it LUL" argument, it makes you sound silly.

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It sounds silly because it is? It's sarcasm because people keep saying "Wow does X, therefore X is bad." If you want to talk about nonsensical logical, that is the implicit definition of a fallacy, so my sarcastic comment regarding deleting mount is just as valid as anyone who says "Y has X, therefore X is bad."

Again, I'm tired of fighting about WoW, WoW had consolidated rotations since end of Burning Crusade, it certainly did not make their subscription drop anymore than normal, in fact it was a massive increase in subs from BC to WOTLK despite the simpler rotation. Now I'm going trying to be done talking about WoW. As for being roasted? LOL this is the internet, if I'm afraid of being roasted by fanboys that will refuse any change to the game, I would just stay off the internet.

Bloated classes: SMN, SAM, NIN, MNK
smoother class: BLM

Since I haven't played every single class, I can't say for the others. I can only say for the classes I've tried.

You generalize what people are saying about WoW. People are saying "WoW has braindead rotations, it's fucking bad", and that's it. They did not compare anything other than that. Your mount argument was over the top, and therefore sounded silly.

And... what did you just say about TBC having harder rotation than WOTLK ? Excuse me ?

Here is a quote before you change your shameful comment : "Again, I'm tired of fighting about WoW, WoW had consolidated rotations since end of Burning Crusade, it certainly did not make their subscription drop anymore than normal, in fact it was a massive increase in subs from BC to WOTLK despite the simpler rotation. Now I'm going trying to be done talking about WoW. As for being roasted? LOL this is the internet, if I'm afraid of being roasted by fanboys that will refuse any change to the game, I would just stay off the internet."

Is that the moment where your "oh I'm so so knowledgable about wow" fraud is revealed ? Oh my Lord, oh my GOD, the ô so terrible rotation of TBC warlocks, aka "shadowbolt is all my life" (or any caster for that matter). So much complexity. Meanwhile, Wotlk had FERAL DRUID. Period. See ? Even this argument of yours is shit, because let's face it you did not play WoW extensively : Vanilla and TBC had braindead rotations, Wotlk had more complex rotations compared to it (bigger talent tree, more spells added to the old ones without any kind of hard pruning). I... I don't understand why you are even talking about WoW if you did not play it. Stop twisting reality to feet your argument, many on this forum were hardcore on WoW for many years, they will see you are full of crap.

Retail WoW (BFA) has pure shit rotations : few buttons to press, 0 INTERACTIONS BETWEEN SPELLS (just play the monstruosity that is Havoc DH... it was one of your points after all, why aren't you on board with that complain ? maybe because you are indeed clueless about WoW as shown by your "TBC was more complex than Wotlk"), and aoe spells that do the same things than their single target counterparts. It's the definition of boring.

So yeah, let's end our WoW "discussion", it's clearly not your forte... but man, I still can't believe than you said "TBC had harder rotations than WOTLK" :D Oh boy, you are a funny one. Sorry but... Sacrifice Demon + SB spam because every other spell was dps lose, amazing rotation indeed ! Oh wait sorry, maybe you were talking about shaman spaming lightning bolt... or mages spaming fire bolt + scorch ? Oh wait I forgot an other one maybe...

You are right, it's not about "being roasted". It's just "being exposed". Shame on you for using the WoW argument without having a clue about it. "TBC had harder rotations" - Xyr.

Summoner has the same problem that Machinist had in Stormblood now. Too many oGCD abilities to be crammed into small windows and if you hit them too quickly they may or may not actually go off. Feels like stepping on your feet. Very clunky and not fun to play.

NIN openers are absurd on medium-to-higher pings (100ms+). After that it's really just managing Meisui and making sure Bunshin lines up correctly with TA. I could stand it if we actually weren't a huge liability with how terrible our damage is atm.

SAM doesn't feel bloated or busy to me at all, though. If anything the job feels dumbed down since they removed Hagakure. I enjoy doing more midares (especially x2!), but I find myself getting bored pretty fast, especially when the content is on farm.

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Originally Posted by Lium

RDM is my main and it’s largely unchanged. But SMN, BLM, NIN, and SAM all feel busier than they were in SB. Particularly SMN and NIN. I’m working my arse off playing those jobs, and sometimes after a trial, I’m exhausted.

BLM and SAM have had some minor tweaks and BLM is somewhat smoother. But the rest are seem to require more work.

Am I just playing these jobs wrong?

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Please, no. Not another tread to "simplify" that job, this job, all jobs... Or you and alike will never stop untill we oinly have to press 3 buttons? The jobs already are easy enough. Stop. Just stop and enjoy your APM. If you don't like it go play WAR or DRK. They are so easy now, that even cripple without arm can play them as pro. Let the jobs be the jobs, let us have something to do.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Basically the devs forgot the lessons of Heavensward and made the classes too complicated with too many layers again, some classes got easier, some classes got a lot harder, most classes had at least one layer added to them, some several, and they feel worse overall for it, especially as mechanics in encounters get more and more complicated as the arms race of encounter design gets progressively more and more insane.

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NO, please STOP! STOP. ther is no too complicated jobs in the game ATM. Let us have at least some level of APM enjoyment! Don't post things like that! Please!

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Originally Posted by Xyr

Another fanboy, ignoring all the posts of suggestions regarding specific problems I made and only bringing up the "complaints". Just some example, I suggested reducing GCD to make the the flow of combat more smooth and fast paced, make skills connect with each other more instead of feeling like each skill is an individual action, making trick attack only increase damage to the Ninja and buff Ninja DPS, and consolidating single target/aoe to a toggle on/off for many of the aoe skills that are just carbon copy of their single target counterparts, and suggestions to revamp of Meditation/Shoha. But hey, as expected of another fanboy, ignoring everything except what fits their ideals, just like I stated.

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Fanboy of what excatly? i literally asked a question and because of it i am a fanboy?

Eitherway, reducing GCD is a bad idea (in the current state of the game) it will hamper the overall exeperience toa significant part of the players base, also i dont think fast GCD means smooth gameplay but what do i know.
How are you proposing that skills conect with ecah other? Like combos, or what exactly?
Stance dancing? is it worth the trouble? I dont reallly care either way.
Hmm making trick attack a personal skill instead of a raid one...well then what would NIN bring to the table? another selfish DPS like SAM?
I dont play SAM so i dont really care for that one.

So you are assuming a lot of me, making you implicitly wrong. But hey just like you stated you are ignoring everything but what fits your ideals. So if nothing else you trully are a fanboy.

Love the changes to ninja. It keeps you thinking for your next move and it never gets boring unlike some other jobs.

Side note: Dark Knight got easier and less fun to play. I'm in the minority here, but I miss SB Dark Knight.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

NO, please STOP! STOP. ther is no too complicated jobs in the game ATM. Let us have at least some level of APM enjoyment! Don't post things like that! Please!

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They were always easy, nothing has changed, high APM doesm mean the class is good or it plays good i mean look at BLM its not a super high APM class and it plays super smoothly, look at SMN is it not kind of spammy?
Then you have classes like NIN that have high APM and a nice flow (sure abit on the clipping side of things). So having High APM doesnt mean a more difficult nor more interesting job. I would arther have nice skill "feel and flow" than a high APM. Like DRG

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Originally Posted by rxnin

Love the changes to ninja. It keeps you thinking for your next move and it never gets boring unlike some other jobs.

Side note: Dark Knight got easier and less fun to play. I'm in the minority here, but I miss SB Dark Knight.

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You are not alone, mate. I too enjoy jobs that make you think a work rather than just press X to win. And I too think, that they've just mutilated the DRK.

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Originally Posted by reyre

They were always easy, nothing has changed, high APM doesm mean the class is good or it plays good i mean look at BLM its not a super high APM class and it plays super smoothly, look at SMN is it not kind of spammy?
Then you have classes like NIN that have high APM and a nice flow (sure abit on the clipping side of things). So having High APM doesnt mean a more difficult nor more interesting job. I would arther have nice skill "feel and flow" than a high APM. Like DRG

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Well, then play the jobs that are smooth and leave for the likes of me the high APM jobs, because we ENJOYING it. Seriously the way requsts like that (about simplifying the jobs) sounds for me like if the person loves the look of a sport car with mechanic box but can't ride it, but he loves the way car looks so much that he actualy writes a petion to make the car with automatic box! NONSENSE! You either love the car and LEARN to ride it (play the job as it is) or don't touch it at all and let the people who actualy invested their time in learning the car (job) and how it controls!

I don't think people should get really caught up in APM. Machinist has higher APM than Summoner. Machinist feels really smooth and enjoyable to play. Summoner is a clunky mess that trips over it's own feet.

You can have a higher APM job that plays smoothly and you can have a lower APM job that feels awful.

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Originally Posted by MaelleRiou

I don't think people should get really caught up in APM. Machinist has higher APM than Summoner. Machinist feels really smooth and enjoyable to play. Summoner is a clunky mess that trips over it's own feet.

You can have a higher APM job that plays smoothly and you can have a lower APM job that feels awful.

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MCH is DEAD. The way he was and the way he is now is 2 different jobs. The MCH I loved and played since his implication to the game is DEAD, the thing you call MCH is simplyfied piece of (enter your favorite)!
But you are right about APM and smoth gameplay. it would be ideal to have job that is APM and smooth and the same time the thing is - what some calls smooth is clunky for another because they don't have either the brains to make nice and comfortable loadout or they are mutilated handicapped person.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

MCH is DEAD. The way he was and the is now is 2 different jobs. The MCH I loved and played since his implication to the game is DEAD.

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Heavensward MCH and Stormblood MCH were 2 completely different things as well. So I'm not really sure what your point is, but Shadowbringers MCH is so much better than Stormblood MCH.

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

Well, then play the jobs that are smooth and leave for the likes of me the high APM jobs, because we ENJOYING it. Seriously the way requsts like that (about simplifying the jobs) sounds for me like if the person loves the look of a sport car with mechanic box but can't ride it, but he loves the way car looks so much that he actualy writes a petion to make the car with automatic box! NONSENSE! You either love the car and LEARN to ride it (play the job as it is) or don't touch it at all and let the people who actualy invested their time in learning the car (job) and how it controls!

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Hmm and? i never said that having high APM was bad, it seems that you dont understand what my point is. Also your metaphor is asinine and completly absurd, if they change jobs to have lower APM " You either love the car and LEARN to ride it (play the job as it is) or don't touch it at all and let the people who actualy invested their time in learning the car (job) and how it controls!" See? same argument. As you said Nonsense.

Either way mocking your example is not the point.

I'll have to disagree with Machinist feels smooth and enjoyable to play. I may be part of a minority.
I feel they just slapped the "Spam this skill nonstop once you press this button" move, similar to dark and war.
In my opinion, i feel MCH's rotation is just 95% Heat blast > ricochet > heat blast > guass round > heat blast etc.. Thats not that enjoyable.
I don't feel like i use the 1-2-3 combo very much, since I feel like i always have 50+ gauge during the fight

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

MCH is DEAD. The way he was and the way he is now is 2 different jobs. The MCH I loved and played since his implication to the game is DEAD, the thing you call MCH is simplyfied piece of (enter your favorite)!
But you are right about APM and smoth gameplay. it would be ideal to have job that is APM and smooth and the same time the thing is - what some calls smooth is clunky for another because they don't have either the brains to make nice and comfortable loadout or they are mutilated handicapped person.

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So you dont have the brain cells, because you think the jobs in this game are fine as they are? or are you a mutilated handicaped person hence you think this game has high APM, and therefore implies good gameplay?

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Originally Posted by reyre

So you dont have the brain cells, because you think the jobs in this game are fine as they are? or are you a mutilated handicaped person hence you think this game has high APM, and therefore implies good gameplay?

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You either troll or actualy dumb if you can't read exactly what I've said and understand it. Ok. I will SIMPLIFY it for you, as you like.
- the jobs are not fine and they always have a room to enhance them. ENHANCE, make it better, not simple. The MCH and the DRK are the great example of simplifying dumbness. Those 2 jobs are braindead now. Completely and utterly. I loved the old DRK and I ENJOYED the MCH before, even if I had to use a lot more CDs and skills (R.I.P. DA and Reload) to achieve the same amount of DPS other did, but I LOVED every second of it. I loved the certain skill level to actualy play this job good. Now? It's braidead linear job. Just as you like.
- This game doesn't have to high of APM but certain jobs require a lot more actions to do something, that other job can in 1 button (WHM vs SCH is a good example, and I love SCH's style a lot more) and people like me enjoy those jobs. We like to press 3-4 buttons instead of 1, we love that some jobs are locked for those who can't play them while we can because we INVESTED OUR TIME IN LEARNING. But you need to ruin that, you need to make that all jobs are braindead and BORING. Efficient, maybe, but BORING.
- APM and the good gameplay are 2 different things. You can have a lot of APM but your gameplay will be dull and vice-versa, BUT! The same MCH and DRK were actualy FUN and APM requiring jobs. Not any more. Now they don't have either fun or APM.
So concluding all that - if you enjoy the braindead gameplay - go on, ask for the "simple dps", ask to remove skills and spells from your loadout. But if SE will actualy do that - many people will quit the game because it will be too boring, considering that we already have a relatively slow and more than simple battle system.

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Originally Posted by Xyr

A problem is a problem, doesn't matter whether too simplistic or too tedious. "WoW" is such a cop out. At that point I might as well just say hey WoW has mounts, let's get rid of mounts. We don't want it to become WoW.

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Imho it’s not the same comparison.

Pruning is bad for a game, and not every job should be pruned, I feel the game should cater to both audiences and it does that very well and that’s enough.

RDM, SAM, Dancer, BLM, bard, monk, Dragoon, MCH are all streamlined pretty well. And have very few abilities.

The game having 2 choices of higher complexity and more buttons isn’t a bad thing. And this is where WoW fecked up. It changed its last remaining larger classes to small ones which peeved a entire audience of the game off.

It’s not a case of “WoW has this so we should avoid it” it’s a “this is killing a top level mmorpg maybe we shouldn’t repeat a mistake”

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Originally Posted by Rakshazi

You either troll or actualy dumb if you can't read exactly what I've said and understand it. Ok. I will SIMPLIFY it for you, as you like.
- the jobs are not fine and they always have a room to enhance them. ENHANCE, make it better, not simple. The MCH and the DRK are the great example of simplifying dumbness. Those 2 jobs are braindead now. Completely and utterly. I loved the old DRK and I ENJOYED the MCH before, even if I had to use a lot more CDs and skills (R.I.P. DA and Reload) to achieve the same amount of DPS other did, but I LOVED every second of it. I loved the certain skill level to actualy play this job good. Now? It's braidead linear job. Just as you like.
- This game doesn't have to high of APM but certain jobs require a lot more actions to do something, that other job can in 1 button (WHM vs SCH is a good example, and I love SCH's style a lot more) and people like me enjoy those jobs. We like to press 3-4 buttons instead of 1, we love that some jobs are locked for those who can't play them while we can because we INVESTED OUR TIME IN LEARNING. But you need to ruin that, you need to make that all jobs are braindead and BORING. Efficient, maybe, but BORING.
- APM and the good gameplay are 2 different things. You can have a lot of APM but your gameplay will be dull and vice-versa, BUT! The same MCH and DRK were actualy FUN and APM requiring jobs. Not any more. Now they don't have either fun or APM.
So concluding all that - if you enjoy the braindead gameplay - go on, ask for the "simple dps", ask to remove skills and spells from your loadout. But if SE will actualy do that - many people will quit the game because it will be too boring, considering that we already have a relatively slow and more than simple battle system.

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I agree with your point but not ur examples.

Machinist is now harder to play then it was in SB, the job in SB was a static rotation every 50 seconds however was completely brain dead outside of wildfire windows. And when they proc’d you just repeat the exact same priority list through it.

Also machinist is higher apm now then SB also :p and Hw for that matter

Your point is accurate tho.

SE don’t need to prune every job in the game, they’ve got plenty of more streamlined choice. And tbh some of them I wish would get more depth.

I wish people would wake up, your not being invaded by masses of WoW players because WoWs amazing. We are here Because WoW pruned lmfao.

U will only drive the masses out your own game trying to inflict the same blight on this game.