What happened to tank damage exactly? Tanks got a massive nerf in terms of damage output compared to earlier expansions. I main Warrior but play all tanks or previously raided with them, I might get banned here for mentioning some of this but i don't mind, as i rarely ever post here. Theres this picture going around showing all jobs DPS numbers on dummies. Where all tanks sit around 6300+ DPS, And healers being very close behind (WHM is 1000 ahead of tanks) In stormblood i could do a solid 6000 on warrior. So did all other jobs get boosted too much or did tanks get nerfed, Can't tell. Also i don't see how a healer who presses 2-3 offensive spells can do more or equal to a tank that has to follow a rotation and weaving. This turned more into a rant than anything lol But hey. have at it ;)
Tank Damage
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07-05-2019, 07:52 AMLanzeTank Damage
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07-05-2019, 08:15 AMAleXwern
Never did they say tank dps would get nerfed, it's just that dps stances went away. In reality dps stances itself did basically nothing, and since the rest of the kit is intact tank dps stays the same/is buffed because accessories have more STR.
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07-05-2019, 08:32 AMLanzeBut we got Tank Mastery trait as a replacement. deliverence was only 5% I dont how it would make that much of a differenceQuote:
Originally Posted by AleXwern
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07-05-2019, 08:33 AMMerlinCrossAnd yet people are going to complain tanks don't do enough damage due to... reasons? Or for Reasons. I dunno.Quote:
Originally Posted by AleXwern
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07-05-2019, 08:37 AMDoozer
I haven't noticed a change in tank DPS at all.
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07-05-2019, 08:40 AMLanzeThat's what i mean by nerf, Every other job got an increase in DMG. we just stayed the same as we did in SBQuote:
Originally Posted by Doozer
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07-05-2019, 08:54 AMADVSS
LOL read the description on tank mastery closer. Back in HW we were against them making VIT a part of tank damage, because we were STR tanking. Cant meld primary stats like str into gear anymore? They totally did what we thought they were going to do. And I can guarantee you, no matter how hard they try, there will still be tanks out damaging DPS, when they figure out how. They gated tank DMG. Like they wanted to, in return enmity is an after thought. I'll be clear about this, but I wince when i see people insulting others for mentioning the loss of the enmity combo, because this is a long stringed up thing. Those combo's were still necessary until they shifted tank main damage stat to vit/str split then had to jack enmity gains to compensate. The dmg did get reduced immediately after the patch as well, but it inclined. Then SB happened, everyone forgot. People tanking out of tank stance was the thing as normal, to the point where this is where we're at. They fixed every complaint others had for tanks that preferred to go the damage route. This is what we got.
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07-05-2019, 09:14 AMshao32
we lose slashing down debuff, idk if was compensated somehow, but we gain overall more dps for tanking in tank stance so meaby we are a bit tunned down compared to SB.
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07-05-2019, 09:21 AMLanzeAll jobs lost slashing/piercing/blunt. But they got more buffs /potency which further boosted them quite high. I remember when people leaked the new fell cleave from warrior which is at 920 potency. people started saying it was OP. But the skill itself doesn't hit much more than a fell cleave in SB with trick attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
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07-05-2019, 10:10 AMExoxo
Those numbers are only what is required to kill your respective dummy and has never been exactly representative of what the class is actually capable of.
3rd expansion, 3rd SSS and people are still making this mistake. -
07-05-2019, 10:27 AMDoozerEveryone else getting buffed isn't a nerf. If you're standing halfway up a flight of stairs and everyone walks up to you or higher, that doesn't meant you went any further down the stairs. Understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanze
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07-05-2019, 11:35 AMLanzeOh i'm not making that mistake, it's just we are not allowed to talk about a certain subject here on the forums. So i resorted to mention that picture insteadQuote:
Originally Posted by Exoxo
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07-05-2019, 11:39 AMExoxoI’m just saying, if we rewind back to HW, all 3 healers were above all 3 tanks in SSS. So not really giving much value to show tanks damage being low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanze
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07-05-2019, 11:39 AMgumasits not a nerf, everyone get dmg buff of sort while tank are still the same more or lessQuote:
Originally Posted by Lanze
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07-05-2019, 12:59 PMMaraD_
Im one who doesnt care if tanks do more or less dps. but just to correct a misunderstanding about the nerf to their dps...
You mixed up which things you were talking about in your example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doozer
When talking about "nerfs" its in comparison to something. Either what it was prior, or what it is compared to another thing within the same category.
In this case, they made 2 different comparisons.
So if they compare themselves to DPS, then your example should be;
"If you're 4 steps below the people in front of you, and someone wouldnt let u take steps forward, and forced the person(s) in front of you to take 2 more steps forward, then you're now 6 steps behind them."
The comparison isnt how far you are to the top of the stairway, but how far you ware from the other person(s) on the stairway.
DPS doesnt have a "top" max, so the only thing to compare to is to the DPS of another class.
If there is anything considered remotely similar to your example, is if you said they added more stairs to the stairway, and bumped other people up further along the stairway.
(Bosses HP is now higher than before, so the damage you deal by % has gone DOWN)
The same logic applies to measuring "movement" in space. A stationary object with no momentum, is equal to an object in motion, if compared to an object in motion.
Damage by percentage has been lowered. That is a nerf.Quote:
Originally Posted by gumas
Think of inflation.
You have 1 dollars worth of currency.
The currency doubles from the government tomorrow.
Your currency is now worth half as much.
Thats indirectly taking value from your currency, and applying it elsewhere.
This would be pointless, other than for the factor the government gets to spend it, and any debt people had, just lost value, and the debt holders lost a % of currency needed to pay of the current value of lifes costs.
You can argue, no, there is no loss of money, money was ADDED. But in reality, money was lost by some, and gained by others.
obviously in this case, value of DPS is based on the % of a targets HP that can be removed.
They dont actually need a fixed value, as a fight can have completely different enrage timers.
So the value of DPS is on a per boss fight basis, which cant be directly measured.
Instead, you have to go with a sort of estimate, based on prior fights. -
07-05-2019, 01:32 PMLanze
I will still consider it a nerf to tanks. With new gear and item level increase + 10 levels. We should be doing more than we did at 70 (Just like other jobs). But we aren't, I don't know how you can say it isn't. If you actually used 3rd party tools you would know.
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07-05-2019, 01:50 PMMaraD_It is a nerf like you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanze
Dont measure the value of DPS by a flat number.
Instead see how much dmg they do in total in a fight, then cross multiply it, so you see what that damage is as a percentage.
If the percentage is lower than the average per boss encounter in the prior expansion, then its a nerf. (And yes, their percentage has been lowered.) -
07-05-2019, 03:05 PMMerlinCrossWe still have trick attack though, and the AST damage buff is easier to get ahold off(Not to mention stacks from what I understand). I think the new Fell Cleave will actually hit harder when raid/progress kicks in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanze
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07-05-2019, 06:08 PMArianeEwahI just have to comment on this because 'twas the same when SB hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanze
We get most of our damage from gear. For level 70, iLvl 400/405 is the highest possible, secondary stats are basicly maxed, each one giving ~5-7% damage increase. At level 80, iLvl 430 is pretty much the starting base, each secondary stat gives less damage increase than on level 70.
That means we don't hit harder in particular, except for new harder hitting skills/abilities.
Yet our DPS is actually higher than in SB.
I bet your example is from Omega (S) raid with trick attack, infusion, echo, Devotion, old Hypercharge etc etc.
And that's were the problem lies. We lost many raid buffs (such as Hypercharge), your SB FC hit was with echo (+15/20%) and probably with infusion.
I've done this multiple times myself and hit with 32-35k FC during IR, when ALL raid buffs, echo, and infusion were applied.
Now I do 36-37k Inner Chaos solo without potions, echo or raid buffs.
Quick maths, calculating old FC true potency during raid with echo *beep beep* = roughly 970 pot... vs IC 1012 pot (both with Storm's Eye)... I don't see the issue here... seems fine to me.
Also keep in mind SE said they changed damage calculation, so everything still might be off.
b@Topic:
I couldn't care less whether our DPS got gutted by a little or not.
I'm just so happy that they made our accessories just as valueable as DPS/healer ones. The first time in years we don't have to meld STR or VIT instead of secondary stats for max DPS increase. We don't have to deal with damage inflation either like we did in HW when they took VIT into attack power calculation. No more unnecessary gil-wasting, overmelding projects for max DPS - (excluding world first runners)
Nevertheless I don't think we got gutted. Alphascape V4S SSS dummy needed a WAR DPS of 4.8-4.9k DPS, roughly 5k with a STR melee in a party. Now the highest tank DPS required for Titania SSS dummy is 6.7k (PLD). That is a still huge increase in damage, just a fairly smaller increase vs DPS jobs.
WHM seems like an exception at all of this, having 1k higher DPS than SCH, even leaving tanks behind. SE will probably change this in near future (for the sake of the other 2 healer jobs). -
09-23-2019, 10:26 PMYokeMThis is an old post, but I still want to thank you. Finally someone got it. I made a similar post on reddit and was down voted into oblivion. A lot of people don't understand, that you have to see damage in relation to something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaraD_
Buffing everyone around you, but keeping you the same is effectively a nerf. SE tried something similar at SB launch were they locked tanks into VIT gear. There was a huge uproar back then. This time they have been smarter about it. -
09-28-2019, 12:15 AMNessaWyvern
Hmm, I kinda think that tank damage is a little bit more.
I did rathalos EX in SB with 4 tanks, and again in SHB with 4 tanks, and Rathy died a bit faster than before. -
09-28-2019, 01:07 AMBarretOblivion
Tank damage kinda did get nerfed actually as much as people think it 'completely stayed the same'.
WAR lost 5% from deliverance on top of the passive crit buff it provided.
PLD lost 50 potency on every auto attack (remember roughly 30% of your damage is coming from auto attacks)
DRK lost DA on the soul eater combo which is was mostly where thier DA went when Carve/Bloodspiller couldn't be used.
Compared to SB each tank did about roughly 12% of a savage boss's hp over the course of an entire fight. This leads to about 24% in total done by the tanks.
In ShB that number has changed to 11% meaning tanks lost an overall contribution of damage to the boss of 2% of their role. DPS largely remained about the same with their contribution, but healers so far seem to have spiked to almost 10% each for boss contribution. This means the overall raid contribution of tanks got moved to healers which is odd because SE has said multiple times leading up to ShB with the changes to healers that they wanted healers to heal more. The contribution of tanks have gotten low enough for players that Healers are starting to get priority in many groups of gear over tanks because they have to contribute more to the raid group than a tank does.
Tank damage overall needs to get buffs to bring it back to about 12% of group contribution in damage so healers aren't forced to do more work than normal, because keep in mind, this is the first raid teir of the expansion, which means they normally nerf the raid HP of bosses by about 10% (there is an interview saying they made it 15% this tier) which means Tank importance of contributing in damage will be less impactful going further and more focus on other roles making it up. -
09-28-2019, 01:37 AMUltimatecaliburYou miss all the flat potency increases the Tank's received?Quote:
Originally Posted by BarretOblivion
The level 70 Paladin's Goring Blade combo went from 1070 (160+240+250+420) to 1485(200+300+390+595), Royal Authority went from 760 (160+240+360) to 1050 (200+300+550) Requiescat+Holy Spiritx5 went from 2630 (350+1.2*(380*5)) to 3175 (550+1.5*(350*5)). The Paladin got at 38% increase in damage from combos and a 20% increase for the Holy Spirit burst. Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn also received 23% and 18% potency increases. All of these changes more than make up for the loss of Sword Oath boosted Autoattacks and Shield Swipe.
The other tanks received similar boosts to make up for the various things that got removed. -
09-28-2019, 02:24 AMBarretOblivionWAR did not get enough buffs which is why it’s dead last from being top. Not saying WAR wasn't problematic in SB after the rework, because it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Drk only got buffs for carve/bloodspliller while soul eater combo stayed the same.
If you were to scale SB to ShB in tank contribution to dps we are down about 1k from what we were beforehand to the lowest dps from a percentage standpoint. In SB we were about 67-68% of DPS damage using orange parses of a difference from the lowest DPS which was acceptable. Keep in mind that dnc is now the lowest dps and the entire physical ranged role will be buffed in 5.1 meaning the gap is just going to widen from what it currently is. Right now Tanks are only dealing about 60% at best when mechanics line up properly between GNB and DNC which means other tanks it widens slightly at about sub 60%. Remember, DNC and all physical ranged are going to get buffs next patch which will likely be about 800 dps or more which means the % difference between tanks and DPS are going to widen even further getting close to that 50% point. With no buffs tank contribution is going to drop further with a likely hood of healers passing tanks in group damage contribution because Tanks scaling on gear right now is fairly low. Meaning, tanks get gear last, tank interest drops further, and other roles will have to pick up the slack where tanks are lacking in. Take into account as well that means less people will be willing to tank anymore because thier group contribution will lessen. There are 2 tanks in a group, however generally the main focus is on one tank with the off tank kinda just... helping. The mechanic that shoehorn in a 2nd tank requirement are a bit... weak in many cases making the OT player feel... well rather useless towards the group besides group mitigation (which DPS also have).
"But OT now all have skills to help the MT!" Well not all OT skills are great and most of the fights you don't even need to touch your OT skill to help your fellow tank. The only tank I would argue is 'useful' with its OT skill is PLD simply because the fights where both tanks get targetted by a Tankbuster, Intevention is fantastic with sharing cooldowns. Besides that... meh, OT almost feel not necessary. -
09-28-2019, 04:59 AMUltimatecaliburNo. War is slightly behind because their damage scales stupidly well with greater and greater amounts of Crit due to their auto Direct Crits. Come 5.55 War should have the highest dps even without any potency changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by BarretOblivion
Hard Slash went from 150 to 200, Syphon Slash went from 250 to 300 and Soul Eater went from 300 to 400. The damage from DA was normalized during SB: Each use of DA increased single target potency by the same amount save for CaS. All the DA potency buffs were turned into Edge of Darkness/Shadow's damage.Quote:
Drk only got bug for carve/bloodspliller and soul eater combo stayed the same.
It is not going to widen as you think it will. Tanks are getting the same amount of Strength and secondary stats from gear as Dragoon, Monk and Samurai are getting. The difference in damage comes from the differences in average potencies between the two roles. Tank should end up dealing the same relative amount of damage when compared to dps in 5.0 as they will in 5.55.Quote:
If you were to scale SB to ShB in tank contribution to dps we are down about 1k from what we were beforehand to the lowest dps. Keep in mind that dnc is now the lowest dps and the entire physical ranged role will be buffed in 5.1 meaning the gap is just going to widen. With no buffs tank contribution is going to drop further with a likely hood of healers passing tanks in group damage contribution. Meaning, tanks get gear last, tank interest drops further, and other roles will have to pick up the slack where tanks are lacking in.
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09-28-2019, 05:34 AMBravely_Default
only reason numbers changed in stormblood is because they finally caved on putting some strength on accessories, and we still had to meld strength to get more out of it. With no sort of buff the percentage ratio is actually going to get worse for tanks because of skill speed scaling which will allow the dps potencies to come out faster.
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09-28-2019, 07:13 AMArgyle_DarkheartNo. CHR actually scales worse on WAR than the other tanks, insofar as the scaling growing at a lesser rate. Automatic critical hits mean that WAR is further ahead on the scaling curve, but it also means the scaling curve is flatter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
To put it simply, the other tanks are catching up to WAR when it comes to CHR scaling; it's not a case of WAR pulling further and further ahead. Come 5.55, WAR should be even further behind the other tanks, if nothing changes. -
09-28-2019, 08:03 AMBarretOblivionOMG I think your right.... it actually makes sense what you are saying. Everyone has been saying WAR is going to get better as crit scales but I always have been thinking 'but so are all the tanks as thier crit % are going to up and their crits are going to hit as hard as WAR, plus they can meld DH while WAR doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart
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09-28-2019, 08:23 AMKabooaCan you link the math on this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart
Every time it comes up it bothers me because at a surface level it doesn't make sense.
Auto critting means that section of your damage always gets the crit bonus. It greatly inflates the bonus you get, and a fair portion of Warriors damage is auto crit.
This effectively means a portion of Warrior's damage scales normally as the other tanks, but the other portion of it is -heavily inflated- because it automatically crits. There should be no point where other tanks approach Warrior's critical scaling, only baseline potency discrepancies that prevent it from being horribly stupid.
Edit: There should be no sane point where they approach critical scaling. We're talking like baseline 50-60% chance, and seeing as we're barely peaking into 25% this tier... -
09-28-2019, 09:42 AMArgyle_Darkheart
To be clear, I am talking specifically about the growth rate of the scaling.
For an extreme example, let's compare a character with a native 100% critical hit chance (character A) to a normal character (character B).
A CHR stat of 2855 gives 20% critical hit chance and 55% critical hit damage.
At a baseline damage of 100, character A would have a final damage of 155 and character B would have a final damage of 111.
Now, let's increase the CHR stat to 3680, which gives 25% critical hit chance and 60% critical hit damage.
Character A would have a final damage of 160 and character B would have a final damage of 115.
In this example, character A gained 5 damage and character B gained 4 damage. For character A, a 5 damage increase is an increase of 3.226%. For character B, a 4 damage increase is an increase of 3.604%.
Now, let's take an absurd jump all the way to 7805 CHR, which gives 50% critical hit chance and 85% critical hit damage
Character A gains 25 damage for an increase of 16.129% and character B gains 27.5 damage for an increase of 23.913%.
Which character is scaling better? -
09-28-2019, 09:45 AMKabooaCharacter B, but only in the same sense that Haste is also technically the best stat in the game - if we could get enough of it to stack to that point, which we never do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart
Thank you, though, I appreciate the time and knowing I'm not actually going crazy. -
09-28-2019, 10:20 AMQuorObviously character B is scaling better, but you ignore the reality that no one will feasibly be reaching 50% crit rate from crit stat. Briefly, with buffs, it's possible for another job to reach or even exceed 50% crit for a short period, but no one has on-demand direct crits like WAR has. Thus, no one benefits from crit like a WAR does. Yes, there is potential for better scaling for another job, but this ignores the fact that the absolute damage difference is drastically different. With 50% crit and 85% crit damage, character B is still dealing half as much absolute damage as character A with 100% crit and 85% crit damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart
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09-28-2019, 10:46 AMArgyle_DarkheartNo, I don't?Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
The example at 7805 CHR is an extreme example whose only purpose is to further illustrate the point that was already demonstrated at 3680 CHR. More than that, the entire exercise is exaggerated in order to prove a point.
Yes, it's true that no one benefits from CHR like a WAR does. It's also true that no one benefits from Battle Litany like WAR does. However, those statements alone don't actually tell us anything.Quote:
Briefly, with buffs, it's possible for another job to reach or even exceed 50% crit for a short period, but no one has on-demand direct crits like WAR has. Thus, no one benefits from crit like a WAR does.
And did it ever occur to you that in reality characters A and B would have not have the same base damage of 100?Quote:
Yes, there is potential for better scaling for another job, but this ignores the fact that the absolute damage difference is drastically different. With 50% crit and 85% crit damage, character B is still dealing half as much absolute damage as character A with 100% crit and 85% crit damage.
More to the point, it's not relevant which character is doing more damage. That is absolutely NOT the purpose of this exercise.
The purpose of this exercise is to demonstrate that the damage gap between characters A and B will narrow as CHR increases. -
09-28-2019, 11:23 AMLazyCDid you forget where Yoship said all the potency scaling also changed drastically for tanks? Inner chaos is 920 potency but it barely hit any harder than fell cleave did back in stormblood on shadowbringers launchQuote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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09-28-2019, 12:20 PMHierro
Something isn't quite right when WHM is capable of outdpsing even GNB.
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09-28-2019, 01:27 PMForteNightshadeJust to play devil's advocate. Lets say this is true. So Warrior finally pulls ahead literally four months before the new expansion; after all the raid tiers and Ultimate encounters are all dead. Jeez! Be still my beating heart!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Seriously. If it took that long, then it says a lot about the current state of Warrior's damage. -
09-29-2019, 05:46 AMNedkelSo to point things out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart
It takes absurd amount of Crit for character B to takeover nominal damage growth that character A is getting from the same amount of stat.
Character B has lesser base damage, but has a critical change advantage 11% of time.
Warrior will never get ahead the other jobs in damage no matter how much crit he will get.