Rdm in 5.0?

Are they really going to put a 5 min cd on verraise for rdm? I was trying to find out if there is anything else going to be changed for rdm but so far no luck. Is it possible that they are going to add more utility(s) to the job?

5min cd on Verraise? That's higher than or same as Benediction I think, but nah just wait for the live letter and we'll know for sure what is happening.

That's the only thing I have heard so far, we are getting the dancer job as a utility dps so I hope that means rdm can deal more dmg after the expansion. If that cd is the only change, then I guess instead of "rez bot", we are just gonna be "bots" later

That would be incredibly awful, do any of you guys have any mana left over after raising both healers and a dps? Cause yeah, I sure dont

I heard this:

RDM :
> Didn't get much lol
> Dia and Fazzle, 2 minute cd, tied to whether you cast Verholy or Verflare
> Dia is a trick attack so you'll always want to use it
> Fazzle makes the target do less damage
> Verraise on a 60sec cd, no mp cost, instacast by default
> Corps-a-corps and Displacement no longer have potency, just movement skills
> Manafication cd adjusted to 110 seconds.
> Composure, new skill, lets you cast Verholy and Verflare right after another once melee combo is completed???
> Leads to Temper, triple attack with your sword, have to be in melee, super flashy.

sounds neat! personally speaking that dual cast ver-raise sometime really put us in a vague position. Its nice to rez ppl during raids especially in savage prog parties, but once past that and everything is about clearing, having rdm rez 3 ppl during the fight can be a net dps loss on 4 ppl, but we still have to do it cuz thats the best combo for us ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
On a side note, I firmly believe we deserve more respect instead of someone saying "rdm needs to deal more dmg" after rezing 2 or more ppl. I am a proud rez bot after all (ಥ ͜ʖಥ)

i dont mind with verraise being on long cooldown to be honest, just to show that we can raise but not actually the expert on it like whm does

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

I heard this:

RDM :
> Didn't get much lol
> Dia and Fazzle, 2 minute cd, tied to whether you cast Verholy or Verflare
> Dia is a trick attack so you'll always want to use it
> Fazzle makes the target do less damage
> Verraise on a 60sec cd, no mp cost, instacast by default
> Corps-a-corps and Displacement no longer have potency, just movement skills
> Manafication cd adjusted to 110 seconds.
> Composure, new skill, lets you cast Verholy and Verflare right after another once melee combo is completed???
> Leads to Temper, triple attack with your sword, have to be in melee, super flashy.

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Really hope this isn't true since a lot of that sounds... not great.

I mean, I don't mind removing potency from movement skills and adding a CD to Verraise (5 minutes was excessive but 1-2 min sounds reasonable).

But, tying different utilities to Verholy and Verflare so you have to favor one or the other? Adding another finisher to build up to like Demi-Bahamut? No mention of improving AoE, MP recovery, or personal survivability?
No Verwater or Verblizzard?

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

But, tying different utilities to Verholy and Verflare so you have to favor one or the other? Adding another finisher to build up to like Demi-Bahamut? No mention of improving AoE, MP recovery, or personal survivability?
No Verwater or Verblizzard?

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It depends on the recast time. That Dia would force a Verholy every two minutes, that's it. I think you can prepare your mana accordignly, and even then, missing a proc would be worth a debuff on the target for the raid.
Same for Composure, you just articulate the skills once everytime the skill is available. I don't see a problem there.

I'd be more concerned with no MP solution.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Really hope this isn't true since a lot of that sounds... not great.

I mean, I don't mind removing potency from movement skills and adding a CD to Verraise (5 minutes was excessive but 1-2 min sounds reasonable).

But, tying different utilities to Verholy and Verflare so you have to favor one or the other? Adding another finisher to build up to like Demi-Bahamut? No mention of improving AoE, MP recovery, or personal survivability?
No Verwater or Verblizzard?

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Better wait for LL to get some actual info imo. until then nothing is a fact

Lets see how it goes when now rdm will have there raise on cd and healer dies in boss fight. Have to say sorry can't raise you my raise is on a cool down. Only reason they take rdm's in raids is for the raises. very dumb to put raise on a cool down. I had to before raise the healer like 5 more times during a long fight. Or healer is out of mp and we need a dps raised. Makes me question how smart his staff really is that came up with the idea to put cool down on raise. Did they put cool down on smn raise if not they better add one to make it fair and at it make all healers have one to. Then want see Yoshi's team run savage content and hard core dungeons with those cool downs in place and see how they do. I never had problem running out of mp when raise to people. Just use lucid dreams before you raise.

Seen in the PLL but not mentioned.

Impact
5s Cast, 2.5s Recast, Range 25, Radius 5
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 220 to target and all enemies nearby it.
Additional Effect: Increases both Black Mana and White Mana by 3
RDM66

Jolt II potency increased to 250

Impact is a proc-less action and Scatter isn't on Yoshi-P's bars.

Edit: It's clear after watching the job actions video again that AoE is VerelementalAoE->Impact

I had the whole live letter playing through my car stereo so I only got the audio - and I can't recall but on the mention of red mage and movement...

Did they just remove potency from the leap in and leap out skills... or does your white/black gauge drain down anytime you move? The second sounds very drastic but that's what I thought I heard while stuck in traffic. But so far in the thread I see mention of potency on those other skills so I am seriously hoping that was the only movement reference...

Corps-à-corps and Displacement actually have their potency increased to 200. But there’s a stationary option for Displacement called Engagement that does 130 or 150 (don’t have the screen in front of me right now). So you can do 200 and backstep, or stay in place and do less damage. A decent compromise, I think.

Impact is the AOE skill you use after AOE Verthunder/Veraero.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...65/unknown.png
This skill being on GUN instead of RDM kills me inside.

Instead of improving our support they gut it
Loss of manashift. Loss of Apoc. Loss of Erase. Was really looking forward to RDM getting some sort of supportive OGCD heal. Yikes on that.
Instead of giving us more opportunity to keep the dead off the floor
we are just there to clean it up
.-.
Like did we really need AOE version of the same skills
Why couldn't we just use a stance to go in and out of AOE if this was going to be just a carbon copy of our single target.
Impact is now an AOE jolt that you use as the Long instant cast skill (Like Veraero/Verthunder is. Elemental AOE -> Impact)
Theres an AOE thunder/AOE Aero
Veraero normal/Verthunder normal become verholy/flare after combo
like Can we dumb it down more. ;-;

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Originally Posted by Rongway

I only very briefly caught glimpses of those two tooltips. I wish he would have passed his mouse across the AoE wind and lightning spells.

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Ask and ye shall receive:

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Alright, just did a deep scan of the VoD from the Live Letter to catch some glimpses of spell descriptions, bear in mind they specifically said all damage numbers are yet to be adjusted so I'm trying to measure relatively to understand the intent:

• New Enchanted melee skill, "Reprise": not part of any combo, Enchanting consumes 10 Mana of either type, but the Enchanted version appears to be a ranged attack; unknown at this time what other effects enchanting has, if any
• New melee CD "Engagement" shares a recast timer with Displacement, doesn't backstep but deals about 25% less damage; note that Corps-a-corps and Displacement still deal damage and otherwise appear unchanged
• Scatter appears to be done away with, Impact is now a longcast AoE skill instead that generates 3(?) mana of each type and no longer requires Impactful
• Two new shortcast AoE skills added, confusingly ALSO named Veraero and Verthunder (no name iterations like "II" or anything); each generates 7 mana of their respective types, don't seem to have any further effects (ie no Stone/Fire procs) but appear to be available at fairly low levels like Scatter was (Note that this new "Veraero"'s tooltip claims it does unaspected damage, so call it a WIP)
• Manafication appears to be some kind of 10 second buff in addition to its ability to double your Mana, although he never moused over it so I couldn't see the buff's effects
• The single-target Veraero and Verthunder now turn into Verholy and Verflare, respectively, upon completing a melee combo
• Finishing the combo and casting Verholy turned Jolt II into a new spell called "Scorch", an instant attack ("Verfoul" as it were) which seems to generate 7 mana of each type; Verholy crit for ~40k while Scorch did a standard hit for about 32k, so I would assume Scorch hits harder base? Until proven otherwise I will also assume Verflare procs it too.
• Verraise still appears to consume 24% of MP, though he didn't mouseover so I can't say if there's any type of CD
• Enchanted Moulinet cost reduced to 20 Mana of each type, but the new Impact appears to hit a bit harder than it

So... good news is our AoE changed at least.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

I only very briefly caught glimpses of those two tooltips. I wish he would have passed his mouse across the AoE wind and lightning spells.

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https://i.imgur.com/P9dVin2.png

Thanks, I was going to do a frame by frame myself to see what I missed but only had time to find the Impact and Displacement tooltips before I had to leave the computer. Overall doesn’t sound like anything terrible is happening to us. I’m looking forward to seeing the final skill set.

I think they really could have done a lot more to make the class and rotation feel fresh; instead we got dumbed down even further with the loss of Impactful, have an extra skill slapped on the end of our melee combo, and extra aoe skills which may or may not take away from some of the intricacies we currently have with aoe (but looks like will apply always for 2 or 3+ enemies). I'm ignoring Engagement as the level of engagement this skill gives me is zero - just something to consider for fights like Suzaku. Please also give us 6 role actions like the majority of the other roles - diversion, lucid, Mana shift, swiftcast, surecast and addle are skills I use in almost every fight and we will feel extremely limited without them.

Did not seem like many changes at all for Red. Looks like a possible aoe thunder? Other then that i guess perhaps it is still scatter spam and rotation will not change all too much.
One thing however that has changed and it is across all dps jobs is you can hold on a charge or two and use when you feel fit, this will have great possibilities

Personally I Feel like If verraised is put on cool down I won't use it anymore it's just that simple. Some cried out when dual cast raising was shown all the way up to this point and I have saved a number of runs with multiple raises. And now it seems our movesets have been gutted somewhat because people begged for more Aoe's instead of asking for scatter, Contre six, and moulinette to be improved on.

I feel Red Mage got completely shafted with 5.0. Nothing they showed remotely excites me, and instead has me worried... In no particular order;

• I really don't get why we need four whole skills which sole purpose for existing is AoE rotation... Most Jobs get one skill to spam, maybe a second, and the rest is oGCDs... Scatter spam and Moulinet was perfectly fine as is... The AoE Veraero and Verthunder are just wasteful skill bloat IMO, it would have made far more sense to simply make Scatter into an AoE stance... You turn it on, Jolt/Impact are AoE, Veraero/stone/thunder/fire are AoE... Makes far more sense than wasting two new actions on nothing...
  
• Contre Sixte and Fleche still have the same lame animation... Look at all the awesome new animations other Jobs get, and we're busy just shooting a lame reskin of the Serpent Officer's Longsword from Palace of the Dead... Imagine if Paladins new skill was just them summoning a big reskin of an existing weapon, instead of the beautiful animation they got...
  
• Engagement... OK I get this skill, I use it when I can't use Displacement because Displacement will throw me off the arena... I get that... Why is Engagement 150 potency while Displacement is 200 potency, though? Why is there nothing remotely interesting about our Lv72 skill? It could easily have an additional effect, perhaps that new Charge Skill mechanic? But nope... It's just a DPS loss in punishment for certain arena designs, something which shouldn't be an issue to begin with... How hard is it to code dash backs so they can't take you off an arena? How about just using the same logic you used with Repelling Shot instead? Back at Stormbloods launch the logic there was that movement skills shouldn't have to be part of your damage rotation, so you took damage off them, yet you went and made Red Mages movement skills deal damage, and now you're persisting with that? What's more you're wasting a new skill on "fixing" the issue presented by a dash back being part of our damage rotation... This is just stupid...
  
• Scorch? Yeah that's OK. Nothing really interesting about it, just an extra step in the burst combo.
  
• Reprise. It's not offensive, it's just again, not particularly interesting. Can't say much without knowing its Enhanced potency, but I can at least see its utility, even if it is fairly niche.
  
• Manafication. Putting this here solely as a question mark. It still seems to double Mana (although in both the trailer and Live Letter, they use it at around the 60/60 mark instead of the <50/50 mark... not sure if that means anything), but it also seems to have a status effect attached to it now. Honestly this was the biggest point of interest for me in everything they showed off with Red Mage, which is troubling...

A Verdisappointing showing to be perfectly honest... Nothing stood out... Most of what we did get seems entirely redundant, Machinist gets a freakin' mecha while we get pointless AoE skill bloat...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I feel Red Mage got completely shafted with 5.0. Nothing they showed remotely excites me, and instead has me worried... In no particular order;

• I really don't get why we need four whole skills which sole purpose for existing is AoE rotation... Most Jobs get one skill to spam, maybe a second, and the rest is oGCDs... Scatter spam and Moulinet was perfectly fine as is... The AoE Veraero and Verthunder are just wasteful skill bloat IMO, it would have made far more sense to simply make Scatter into an AoE stance... You turn it on, Jolt/Impact are AoE, Veraero/stone/thunder/fire are AoE... Makes far more sense than wasting two new actions on nothing...
  
• Contre Sixte and Fleche still have the same lame animation... Look at all the awesome new animations other Jobs get, and we're busy just shooting a lame reskin of the Serpent Officer's Longsword from Palace of the Dead... Imagine if Paladins new skill was just them summoning a big reskin of an existing weapon, instead of the beautiful animation they got...
  
• Engagement... OK I get this skill, I use it when I can't use Displacement because Displacement will throw me off the arena... I get that... Why is Engagement 150 potency while Displacement is 200 potency, though? Why is there nothing remotely interesting about our Lv72 skill? It could easily have an additional effect, perhaps that new Charge Skill mechanic? But nope... It's just a DPS loss in punishment for certain arena designs, something which shouldn't be an issue to begin with... How hard is it to code dash backs so they can't take you off an arena? How about just using the same logic you used with Repelling Shot instead? Back at Stormbloods launch the logic there was that movement skills shouldn't have to be part of your damage rotation, so you took damage off them, yet you went and made Red Mages movement skills deal damage, and now you're persisting with that? What's more you're wasting a new skill on "fixing" the issue presented by a dash back being part of our damage rotation... This is just stupid...
  
• Scorch? Yeah that's OK. Nothing really interesting about it, just an extra step in the burst combo.
  
• Reprise. It's not offensive, it's just again, not particularly interesting. Can't say much without knowing its Enhanced potency, but I can at least see its utility, even if it is fairly niche.
  
• Manafication. Putting this here solely as a question mark. It still seems to double Mana (although in both the trailer and Live Letter, they use it at around the 60/60 mark instead of the <50/50 mark... not sure if that means anything), but it also seems to have a status effect attached to it now. Honestly this was the biggest point of interest for me in everything they showed off with Red Mage, which is troubling...

A Verdisappointing showing to be perfectly honest... Nothing stood out... Most of what we did get seems entirely redundant, Machinist gets a freakin' mecha while we get pointless AoE skill bloat...

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Our support side of RDM is practically gone with the exit of Manashift/apoc/erase. We could at least pretend to be support with those skills, but yeah lets delete them so we can have even less to do during single target encounters.

If we had gotten even one support skill that would be worth while, like GUN's Aurora, I wouldn't have this foul taste in my mouth, but it feels like we are shifting into BLMs with 10% less DPS, with reworked tools that already had answers in 4.0 and just the same old boring tunnel vision as any other dps.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Our support side of RDM is practically gone with the exit of Manashift/apoc/erase. We could at least pretend to be support with those skills, but yeah lets delete them so we can have even less to do during single target encounters.

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Ah right, I'd forgotten. Caster additionals were almost completely gutted too... It's a shame, I'd liked to have seen stuff like Erase reworked and expanded upon... Although honestly I was never a fan of the additionals system... When we had to pick 5 our of 10 of them it had potential, most outright weren't worthwhile but if they were adjusted it could be an interesting system. Now that they're just essentially default skills? Hate how they're shared across Jobs to be honest... I miss the extra class identity provided by Dark Knight having Shadowskin instead of Rampart, or Scholar having Leeches instead of Esuna, for examples.

Still, as it was there was still potential... I enjoyed Verraising healers and topping their MP off with Mana Shift. I enjoyed using Erase to help with healing and potentially save healers an Esuna cast. I enjoyed timing Addle before AoE magic attacks, and Apoc before single target ones... Such a shame to see all that gone...

At the very least I guess at least Red Mage should get a fair amount of adjustments over 5.x... That or we'll be ignored for an entire expansion like Machinist and Dark Knight were...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Ah right, I'd forgotten. Caster additionals were almost completely gutted too... It's a shame, I'd liked to have seen stuff like Erase reworked and expanded upon... Although honestly I was never a fan of the additionals system... When we had to pick 5 our of 10 of them it had potential, most outright weren't worthwhile but if they were adjusted it could be an interesting system. Now that they're just essentially default skills? Hate how they're shared across Jobs to be honest... I miss the extra class identity provided by Dark Knight having Shadowskin instead of Rampart, or Scholar having Leeches instead of Esuna, for examples.

Still, as it was there was still potential... I enjoyed Verraising healers and topping their MP off with Mana Shift. I enjoyed using Erase to help with healing and potentially save healers an Esuna cast. I enjoyed timing Addle before AoE magic attacks, and Apoc before single target ones... Such a shame to see all that gone...

At the very least I guess at least Red Mage should get a fair amount of adjustments over 5.x... That or we'll be ignored for an entire expansion like Machinist and Dark Knight were...

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Addle is staying. Its the only thing we have left.

Instead of Tank buster incoming -> Apoc

Well have to adjust to Tank buster incoming -> Hey rdm can you get the Verraise.

Right, Addle, Lucid Dreaming, Swiftcast and Surecast, right?

I think I heard something about Surecast having a significantly increased recast timer too? That really sucks as well IMO, as it currently is it's timed perfectly for most fights. Something like Chaos it feels rather good to pop it before every knockback while the rest of your party positions to not be knocked into death. Guess they need to make Reprise more worthwhile somehow though, guessing they designed that as the "Use when repositioning" skill.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I really don't get why we need four whole skills which sole purpose for existing is AoE rotation... Most Jobs get one skill to spam, maybe a second, and the rest is oGCDs... Scatter spam and Moulinet was perfectly fine as is... The AoE Veraero and Verthunder are just wasteful skill bloat IMO, it would have made far more sense to simply make Scatter into an AoE stance... You turn it on, Jolt/Impact are AoE, Veraero/stone/thunder/fire are AoE... Makes far more sense than wasting two new actions on nothing...

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I... disagree, actually. The main concern towards our AoE was that it was boring -- you just hit Scatter over and over, 7 casts to the Moulinet, unless you were at exactly 3 targets where you alternated Verthunder/Veraero. Under the new system, it's inverted from our single-target rotation, which is at least a change to be less repetitive if nothing else; arguably the two could also have niche purposes in single-target to adjust our mana totals, since they're shortcasts that don't rely on procs.
Meanwhile, your suggestion of "just give us an AoE stance" would make AoE gameplay as boring and uninspired as you claim the new 71-80 skills are. Sure, we don't AoE terribly often in full party content, but I find myself doing a lot of it in alliance raids and dungeons, which is a fairly large aspect of the casual experience.

Bear in mind, the two new actions are actually marked as low-level skills replacing Scatter, not as part of our five advancements. Also, while skill bloat is a concern, it's only insofar as every job is "bloated" -- we were actually on the lower-end as a new job, and with 6 Role Actions going away and Verholy/Verflare getting their buttons rolled into the original Veraero/Verthunder, we'll actually have more slots ending Shadowbringers than we had starting Stormblood.

My only point of contention with the new AoEs is that they went back to Veraero and Verthunder -- they didn't even name them "Veraero/thunder II", and while I'm sure these are WIP names, the fact they exist for completely different purposes than the versions we already have is just confusing. I'd much rather they change one of the pairings to Ice and Water spells.

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Contre Sixte and Fleche still have the same lame animation... Look at all the awesome new animations other Jobs get, and we're busy just shooting a lame reskin of the Serpent Officer's Longsword from Palace of the Dead...

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I rather like their animation -- way more exciting than the loads of "summon a crystal overhead" cooldowns and spells we see everywhere.
Hell, I'd want them to expand on their style. Imagine us being able to summon a wall of those crystal swords as a barrier skill, like Armiger Noctis (or Ultimate Form Sora) does to guard.
Who cares what sword model they use anyway? Outside of Gpose they're not on screen long enough for you to bask in their glory or anything.

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Engagement... OK I get this skill, I use it when I can't use Displacement because Displacement will throw me off the arena... I get that... Why is Engagement 150 potency while Displacement is 200 potency, though? Why is there nothing remotely interesting about our Lv72 skill? It could easily have an additional effect, perhaps that new Charge Skill mechanic?

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Because Yoshi wants us to do flips into and out of melee, rather than just having them be niche mobility and escape tools. I agree that putting such a drastic difference on Engagement versus Displacement is punishment towards the players for bad encounter design, and I would have much rather they had taken the damage off of our movement skills entirely... but I also disagree with making Engagement as powerful as or better than Displacement, since its core purpose is not to be a full replacement, but a niche alternative option. A better option than giving new effects to Engagement would be to shorten or remove the gap between it and Displacement, and then add more non-damage effects to Displacement (in addition to the backstep) as incentives to its use over Engagement.

Also, I... feel like you don't understand the new Charge system all too well if you're suggesting adding it to Engagement, when it shares a timer with Displacement, which presumably would not have charges.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I think I heard something about Surecast having a significantly increased recast timer too? That really sucks as well IMO, as it currently is it's timed perfectly for most fights. Something like Chaos it feels rather good to pop it before every knockback while the rest of your party positions to not be knocked into death.

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I would assume they changed Surecast specifically because of those kinds of encounters actually -- it allowed us to completely ignore some mechanics and skip the intended risks of such fights. Sure that would have been a good thing for like, a Black Mage to root themselves in one spot and not have to worry about getting knocked off the platform just long enough for them to be able to throw out a couple more casts, but... we're not Black Mages, we actually have some mobility between casts.

Meanwhile, Lucid Dreaming's CD was halved, which is a victory lap for us (and to a lesser extent, SMNs) and our MP concerns.

I'm really disappointed about RDM in 5.0, and I'm getting the same bad feel I felt about 4.0 DRK after the Job Action trailer, and it all turned to be very true to my bad feelings.

About the new actions:
Reprise: This skill is disappointing. They should have just changed enchanted riposte to be ranged instead of WASTING a new skill slot with such an underwhelming action.
Engagement: This is another wasted new skill slot. Should have just changed Displacement to be impossible to fall off the edges.
Scorth: The only good thing they added, but I feel it could be so much more.

Now about Veraero and Verthunder: They should have changed the AoE and single target to be the same action, being Aoe by default and turning into their powerfull version when dualcast is active. But instead of using Impact they should have created Verwater and Verblizzard as the new AoE 5s cast time.

The feeling I had with DRK in 4.0 is that if they had added nothing to 3.0 DRK then it would still be better than the 4.0. RDM 5.0 is the same thing. I find 4.0 RDM better designed.

I would trade the new actions with:
Reprise: New AoE finisher for moulinet.
Engagement: Some new action that have some mechanic with casting Verflare and Verholy. Ex: enable to cast Verflare after Verholy and vice-versa during 20s (to match Embolden), with that we could cast 4 times in the 20s if we use manafication. I would change embolden to not fall of every 4s for the red mage, only for the party members.
Verthunder: Verblizzard with 5s cast time.
Veraero: Verwater with 5s cast time.
Scorth: I don't really know what this action does, so I don't know if it's worth keeping of changing.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

How hard is it to code dash backs so they can't take you off an arena?

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

Engagement: This is another wasted new skill slot. Should have just changed Displacement to be impossible to fall off the edges.

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Y'all do realize that that wouldn't help us at all on fights like O11 or Bahamut, right? Fights where the arena is wide enough that you won't fall off, but just touching the edge will lead to you receiving massive damage or just instantly dying?

Again, I agree that Engagement is not a perfect solution to that issue, but if you'd rather just have Displacement as-is and just be forced to lose even more damage...

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I find 4.0 RDM better.

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... You realize that aside from role actions, they removed nothing from our toolkit, right? 4.0 RDM still exists within 5.0 RDM's design. You could skip the new skills and the only thing you'd lose is tediously alternating Jolt II with Impact.

Except for our AoE being... loads better than now? You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I... disagree, actually. The main concern towards our AoE was that it was boring

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All AoE is boring... Actually Red Mages is already one of the more interesting ones... Scatter spam into Moulinet is more interesting than simple Death Blossom spam, or Total Eclipse spam, or Quick Nock spam, or Spread Shot spam...

What's more, who even cares if AoE is boring? AoE is such a small part of this game, and certainly not the focus in the majority of endgame content, yet "You have new AoE tools!" was pretty much the main focus of Red Mages new toolkit... Other Jobs got new AoE as well of course, but they seemed to have got AoE in oGCDs, which is honestly what I'd prefer... AoE oGCDs like Contre Sixte still have value in single target scenarios, while GCDs like Death Blossom don't.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Meanwhile, your suggestion of "just give us an AoE stance" would make AoE gameplay as boring and uninspired as you claim the new 71-80 skills are.

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That suggestion was more to not waste action slots on AoE. I'm not a fan of the skill bloat we're seeing (which is an odd thing to say during a skill prune, but here we are...). Just converting an already existing skill (Scatter) into a stance? Achieves the exact same thing without bloating our hotbar. Actually arguably it can achieve more; Verstone and Verfire could become AoE as well, heck Vercure could. That'd be interesting.

A stance also lends itself nicely to giving Red Mage a new direction to go in; Stances that alter the effect of its spells. Said it in another thread, but I think Bravely Seconds Spellcrafting system would be a nice fit for Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Except for our AoE being... loads better than now? You're welcome.

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I don't see changing AoE so it's the inverse of our single target rotation to really be "loads better". It honestly makes no difference to me, AoE is such a minor part of this game that I really shouldn't care. The only reason I do care, is that this was the main focus of what they showed with Red Mage, while everything else is equally niche and unexciting... They're all technically improvements, some like Engagement are dumb improvements but still an improvement, but they're all so incredibly minor and boring... Meanwhile you look at what other Jobs are getting in their 5.0 Happy Meal? It's incredibly disappointing.

Machinist can summon B.O.B and I can spam White Scatter and Black Scatter instead of just Scatter in dungeons? Excuse me if I'm a little peeved at that.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Because Yoshi wants us to do flips into and out of melee, rather than just having them be niche mobility and escape tools.

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What he wants is stupid then, and someone needs to let him know that. How they clearly intended Red Mage to be played isn't even how I play it most of the time... I reversed the usage of Corps-a-corps and Displacement and live in melee range most of the time for that sweet sweet autoattack damage. Heck some encounters make that a requirement anyway... The whole "You dash in, melee combo, dash out and Verholy!" is a poorly designed rotation from the onset, at least as far as Corps-a-corps and Displacement are concerned... It basically a mechanic that looks nice for trailers and nothing else, in terms of gameplay we're not locked into doing it that way, nor does it really add anything... If anything it takes away, since you're using them for damage rather than saving them for escapes...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

All AoE is boring... Actually Red Mages is already one of the more interesting ones... Scatter spam into Moulinet is more interesting than simple Death Blossom spam, or Total Eclipse spam, or Quick Nock spam, or Spread Shot spam...

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Maybe I'm just a little spoiled by the more extensive options offered to Black Mage and Summoner then, particularly considering caster LBs are devoted to AoE which kinda makes it seem like AoE is a big "niche" for us. Might have something to do with the long cast times we casters face compared to the mostly instant classes you just listed off.

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That suggestion was more to not waste action slots on AoE. I'm not a fan of the skill bloat we're seeing (which is an odd thing to say during a skill prune, but here we are...). Just converting an already existing skill (Scatter) into a stance? Achieves the exact same thing without bloating our hotbar. Actually arguably it can achieve more; Verstone and Verfire could become AoE as well, heck Vercure could. That'd be interesting.

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You know what would be an even simpler solution than an AoE stance? Removing AoE from the game entirely! No more trash packs between bosses, just a chain of minibosses over and over.
What you're proposing is basically the same effect after all - same rotation in single-target as in AoE.
Except, AoE has its place in this game as with most others. Distilling gameplay to its most compact form is efficient design, but "efficient" is not always the same as "good" or even "preferable".

And again... what skill bloat? We're a new job, we suffered very little from skill bloat compared to someone like AST or SMN. Six role actions just got trimmed, both Verfinishers just got molded into other buttons and the new Scorch shares a slot with Jolt as well. Tether also may be gone to boot.
Meanwhile in your favor we have two known advancements on new buttons, and Scatter being split into -gasp- two skills -- wow -- and we also know that more iterations are coming to those based solely on their names being exact duplicates of existing skills.
So that's 4 new buttons, on top of dropping 10 (and saving one new one), on a class that was on the lower end of bloat to begin with? Without the role actions we break even.

Bear in mind, you're suggesting an alternate replacement for Scatter -- which means you're doing this to effectively trim one more button.
... This is the hill you want to die on?

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I don't see changing AoE so it's the inverse of our single target rotation to really be "loads better".

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On the contrary, I was focusing on multiple facets of it. For starters, it takes an average of 7-8 GCDs of just casting Scatter before we can perform one Enchanted Moulinet. Between the changes offered, it now takes only 4 GCDs to lead up to Enchanted Moulinet, the majority of which are different skills, in addition to the ability to stock up to five Moulinets in a row over the three we had before. It's intuitive without lacking in variety.

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Machinist can summon B.O.B and I can spam White Scatter and Black Scatter instead of just Scatter in dungeons? Excuse me if I'm a little peeved at that.

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Considering AoE is more than half of most dungeons (and alliance raids for that matter), I'm glad that I'm not going to spend several minutes at a time between bosses pressing one button over and over.

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What he wants is stupid then,

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And yet we still owe "what he wants" for the class we have. Please take your entitlement elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

And yet we still owe "what he wants" for the class we have. Please take your entitlement elsewhere.

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I'm sorry, I thought the point of these forums was to provide the dev team with feedback?

His vision for Corps-a-corps/Displacement does not match the realities of gameplay. Displacement outright by their own admission given the implementation of Engagement as a solution to "You couldn't use Displacement when it would throw you off arenas" problem.

Keeping them as part of the DPS rotation, and wasting a new skill on trying to fix issues with that, purely because the concept of dashing in for a combo then dashing out for a finisher looks nice? That is stupid. More so when it's entirely optional to even play to that "cool" rotation. They could certainly force us to play like that, but then the issues with Displacement become worse... It's almost like the whole concept is flawed and needs readdressing... That's why they made adjustments to other such skills in Stormblood, forcing Red Mage to be an exception that still has its dash skills as part of its DPS rotation, despite all that, simply because it looks cool... Frankly that is stupid...

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

You know what would be an even simpler solution than an AoE stance? Removing AoE from the game entirely! No more trash packs between bosses, just a chain of minibosses over and over.

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That's a nice strawman you've crafted up there, love the hyperbole, really compelling argument.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

And again... what skill bloat?

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Right, when I say skill bloat I mean more the fact that Red Mage, purely as a result of its White/Black Gauge design, has a lot of skills that are completely identical. I think this is pretty much unavoidable at some level, but it's still something I'd like to minimize if at all possible, so now having White and Black Scatter? Doesn't help.

And again, if you have Scatter as a stance instead... You've got a superior rotation to what they're even offering now, if you care about the AoE rotation so much... It would be the same as the single target rotation, except that's being pruned now since Jolt II no longer has Impactful. We've lost from the current rotation in order to do what? Make single target spell rotation Jolt II/Verstone/fire > Veraero/thunder and AoE Veraero/thunder > Impact?

Heck, with an AoE stance, why even stop at the spells? Lets move Reprise down to Lv52 in place of Moulinet and simply have it turn into Moulinet when you activate the stance... We get a niche skill like Reprise earlier, and free up the Lv76 slot for something (hopefully) a tad more exciting. Granted, enhanced Reprise could change opinions on that currently, but I wont hold my breath on that...

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Considering AoE is more than half of most dungeons (and alliance raids for that matter), I'm glad that I'm not going to spend several minutes at a time between bosses pressing one button over and over.

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Fair enough, if you find Verthunder > Impact > Veraero > Impact > Moulinet engaging I wont bother arguing otherwise. Personally I found AoE pulls more engaging by offering support to the tank/healer, losing additionals really hurts in that regard. I can't be the only person who actively used skills like Apocatastasis and Erase on such pulls, right? Personally I'd rather see that concept expanded upon to engage DPS in AoE pulls, than the fairly lame illusion of variety Black and White Scatter offer...

Granted, such content has never been tuned such that throwing out Apocatastasis when there are a bunch of magic based enemies really achieved anything, but by the same count, such content is tuned such that you can spam unenhanced Moulinet and still clear it...

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Maybe I'm just a little spoiled by the more extensive options offered to Black Mage and Summoner then

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Wait, what options does Summoner have exactly? That's purely just Tri-bind spam... And even that's only during Dreadwyrm Trance... Unless you're counting oGCDs, but in that case most Jobs have far more options, I don't mention them simply because oGCDs either maintain value in single target scenarios, or have some cost associated that provides a tad more depth to the Job using them. That's something that applies beyond AoE as well, Samurais Kenki for example does the same thing with it's dash-in and dash-out, the associated gauge cost makes such skills more interesting, IMO. As for Black Mage... Well most of its options are a result of it having more Job mechanics, Umbral/Astra namely, and actually having DoTs for Thunder, Flare and Foul have value in single target scenarios as well, although I suppose that might be changing with 5.0.

All that said, if we were sitting here looking at Red Mage having new ways to spend its gauge in AoE situations, instead of building it? I'd be a lot more interested. Just in general I'd like more things to do with the gauge, the building mechanic is already there and perfectly fine, it didn't really need new additions to it IMO. What we needed was more ways to play with the gauge. Hopefully enhanced Reprise can at least offer something there if nothing else, but the description given thus far leaves a lot to be desired...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Fair enough, if you find Verthunder > Impact > Veraero > Impact > Moulinet engaging I wont bother arguing otherwise. Personally I found AoE pulls more engaging by offering support to the tank/healer, losing additionals really hurts in that regard. I can't be the only person who actively used skills like Apocatastasis and Erase on such pulls, right? Personally I'd rather see that concept expanded upon to engage DPS in AoE pulls, than the fairly lame illusion of variety Black and White Scatter offer...

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This is what has me the saddest. Not just for Trash pulls but for raids. Being able to apoc the tank while a healer is down then erase right after the tank buster without losing any damage, but significantly increasing the survival of the tank just feels so good. But we cut 3 skills (Erase/apoc/Manashift) for the sake of button bloat, but that leaves us at 5 less buttons than we had in SB? Surely we can handle 2-3 OGCD support skills with all this space they've created for us? Why can't we have the "Best" of both worlds and have this AOE system AND OGCD support? :c

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I'm sorry, I thought the point of these forums was to provide the dev team with feedback?

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Feedback is constructive and actionable. "Corps-a-corps and Displacement's intended uses differ from reality" is feedback, "keeping them in the DPS rotation diminishes their use as mobility tools" is feedback, "I'm disappointed in what I've seen but have ideas to improve it" is feedback.

"It's stupid" is hurling insults, itself a big part of why a lot of devs don't look at feedback.

"The devs' core intent for the class is stupid" is an implication that your design ideas differ wildly from the devs while simultaneously using insult to hold yours superior to theirs, with only personal bias to back that up. That's entitlement, plain and simple.

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That's a nice strawman you've crafted up there, love the hyperbole, really compelling argument.

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It would be a strawman if it was a stretch from what you said, but you literally just doubled-down on declaring that the gameplay of AoE and single-target should be exactly the same. Said hyperbole illustrated that the function is little different for us from what you suggested.

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That's purely just Tri-bind spam... And even that's only during Dreadwyrm Trance... Unless you're counting oGCDs, but in that case most Jobs have far more options, I don't mention them simply because oGCDs either maintain value in single target scenarios, or have some cost associated that provides a tad more depth to the Job using them.

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You can't really write-off the Aetherflow oGCDs in SMN's case. Painflare and Bane are both important aspects of SMN AoE, especially when they're part of activating Dreadwyrm Trance in the first place -- and of course, Bane has its own prerequisites. Deathflare is as big to their AoE as Foul is for BLMs and Contre Sixte for us.

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All that said, if we were sitting here looking at Red Mage having new ways to spend its gauge in AoE situations, instead of building it? I'd be a lot more interested. Just in general I'd like more things to do with the gauge, the building mechanic is already there and perfectly fine, it didn't really need new additions to it IMO. What we needed was more ways to play with the gauge.

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I disagree. It makes more practical sense to strengthen our foundations before adding more to the top, especially when you consider aspects like how long you're spending building up the gauge versus the length of the windows where you're actually expending it.

While obviously not as extreme, that principle is a big part of the feedback against SMNs: Demi-Bahamut took way too long to build up versus the value it had upon the rotation, yet SMN keeps continuously building upward.

Reduce buildup time to a reasonable balance and then it will be more exciting to have a top-heavy rotation.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

It would be a strawman if it was a stretch from what you said, but you literally just doubled-down on declaring that the gameplay of AoE and single-target should be exactly the same. Said hyperbole illustrated that the function is little different for us from what you suggested.

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I fail to see how my simple apathy to AoE GCD rotations in any way leads to the ridiculousness of your strawman argument of "Just remove trash packs entirely!". Just because I simply don't care if I'm spamming Scatter or using three different spells instead, doesn't remotely indicate such an absurdity... All I'm saying is a stance achieves pretty much the exact same thing, if not more (since you can apply it to Verstone/etc and have the exact same depth of the single target rotation in the AoE one, even have it the toggle for Moulinet which frees up space for other skills, heck you could work it on Vercure if we're feeling spicy), while also paving the way towards a new avenue for Red Mage to go down (abilities that alter the spells effects).

You can dislike the suggestion if you like, but there's no reason to resort to such absurdities. Has me more incline to just ignore what you're saying than bother engaging in any form of debate.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

"The devs' core intent for the class is stupid" is an implication that your design ideas differ wildly from the devs while simultaneously using insult to hold yours superior to theirs, with only personal bias to back that up. That's entitlement, plain and simple.

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Corps-a-corps and Displacement are the core of Red Mage? Pretty sure the core is building the gauge, using it on the melee combo, and performing the finisher. Corps-a-corps and Displacement are just tools to help with mobility. Tools most Jobs have, but are not required as part of any DPS rotation, because SE rightly identified the issues inherent to that... Except for Red Mage, Red Mage has to include them as part of their DPS rotations because it looks cool... I'm sorry, but if you cannot see the idiotic hypocrisy on display here, then there's no point continuing this argument... I mean, I think Repelling Shot has a cool animation too, and I enjoyed it being part of Bards damage rotation before they rightly removed the damage from it because the concept didn't work in practice...

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

You can't really write-off the Aetherflow oGCDs in SMN's case. Painflare and Bane are both important aspects of SMN AoE, especially when they're part of activating Dreadwyrm Trance in the first place -- and of course, Bane has its own prerequisites. Deathflare is as big to their AoE as Foul is for BLMs and Contre Sixte for us.

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I'm not writing them off, it's just they're oGCDs. They have cooldowns. They can still potentially be useful in single target situations. What you spam is Tri-Bind. What you spam is Fire II (or at least it was, I've not checked in with Black Mage in a long time). oGCDs are mixed in to spice things up, but Veraero II and Verthunder II (I assume they missed a II off the naming for the showcase build) are not oGCDs, they don't spice anything up IMO. I honestly just don't see a world of difference between Scatter spam, and doing Veraero II > Impact > Verthunder II > Impact. You're just pressing 1 3 2 3 instead of 1 1 1 1, there's still nothing to really keep track of or focus on... Mix a Verstone II and Verfire II in there and perhaps its a bit more interesting, since you'd be watching for Ready procs just like the single target rotation, but do that an we're really talking about skill bloat which brings us right back to "Just add a stance".

Heck, it gets worse when you factor in the potency of spells... Given Impact is 220 potency, and Veraero and Verthunder are 310 potency, Impact is worthwhile even on two mobs (120 potency more). This effectively removes what I'd be more incline to enjoy from the current AoE rotation (were I to care about AoE rotations), recognizing that we're down to three mobs and mixing Veraero and Verthunder in instead. I have to pay attention with that, that's more engaging IMO.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I disagree. It makes more practical sense to strengthen our foundations before adding more to the top, especially when you consider aspects like how long you're spending building up the gauge versus the length of the windows where you're actually expending it.

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I think the foundations were solid enough as is... Veraero II and Verthunder II don't really add anything, all they've done is stabilize the gauge building by removing Scatter procs. The change that is actually nice is the one to the cost of Enhanced Moulinet, Veraero II and Verthunder II are inconsequential next to that... If gauge building is that big a problem though, I'd again say the solution is more oGCDs rather than two new AoE GCDs... Something like Manafication helps with gauge building in both single target and AoE situations, for example...

Now that I think about it, actually... It's a shame Acceleration still has no place in the AoE rotation... I always wished it would get adjusted to force a Scatter proc, since that would give you one more thing to remember during AoE rotations, but with Scatter gone that's no longer a possibility...

I'm also honestly not seeing how the new rotation is a faster buildup actually... You get to Moulinet faster purely because it costs 10 gauge less, other than that the only thing it is is more consistent because of a lack of Scatter RNG.

Lets just look at 10 GCDs for simplicity sake;

With the 5.0 changes, you'll get to 36 - 29 on your gauge. (Aero (7 - 0) > Impact (10 - 3) > Thunder (10 - 10) > Impact (13 - 13) > Aero (20 - 13) > Impact (23 - 16) > Thunder (23 - 23) > Impact (26 - 26) > Aero (33 - 26) > Impact (36 - 29))
With 10 Scatters? That's 30 - 30 with no procs. Throw a single proc in and that's 37 - 37. While RNG never works like this, 30% chance for a proc should mean you get at least two procs over 10 GCDs, which would put you at 44 - 44.

Not that I'm a fan of Scatter RNG, but well... Like I said, the main change here is the reduction to Enhanced Moulinets cost... You hit that threshold faster because of that change, not because of any change to the rate we fill the gauge, if anything that's slower, although it's nice for it not to be RNG dependent, but again I think just letting Acceleration play a role there would have helped with that...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Corps-a-corps and Displacement are the core of Red Mage?

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Believe it or not, the driving force behind most design intent is archetypal aesthetics. You can apply that to most jobs: from classic war wizard aesthetic for the Black Mage to the Naruto mudra shuffling of Ninjas to the rhythm gameplay of Dancers. In our case, the aesthetic of balancing white and black magic, of weaving magic with fencing, of agilely flipping in and out of action -- trying to fit the "jack of all trades" imagery into a pure DPS with supportive utility.
Taking the visual image of "I'd like to see this" gives the devs a kernel to build around, and defines or influences what a job should and shouldn't receive in the future.

I'm not saying you're wrong that having our flips influence our damage output is a bad idea -- it's one I wholeheartedly agree with, and believe that our mobility tools should be conserved for said mobility -- but in seeking to fulfill the aesthetic, the devs wanted to create an incentive for us to use the flips regularly (as opposed to just sitting in melee, auto-attacking between casts for bonus DPS, never touching Displacement). We can agree that they chose a poor incentive and discuss better ones instead, but simply saying "that's dumb, remove it" is a slap in the face to the design intent.

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What you spam is Fire II (or at least it was, I've not checked in with Black Mage in a long time).

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Hasn't been Fire 2 for a long time; nobody really uses the "II" spells as BLM anymore.
For SB it's been more a weave of Bliz3, Bliz4, Fire3, Flare x2, Transpose, repeat until Foul and sprinkling Thunder 4 as Thundercloud procs pop or the DoT falls off. The changes in ShB will hopefully replace the Bliz spells with Freeze, asserting more area damage into the AoE rotation. Big reason we're not including oGCDs here is 'cuz its cast times are longer than its GCD, unlike SMN and RDM, and their CDs are longer than most trash pulls.
Point being, much like SMN, way more active than "spam Scatter till it dies".

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Now that I think about it, actually... It's a shame Acceleration still has no place in the AoE rotation... I always wished it would get adjusted to force a Scatter proc, since that would give you one more thing to remember during AoE rotations, but with Scatter gone that's no longer a possibility...

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I can understand why they didn't, though. Scatter procs gave 20 Mana, second in gains only to our Verfinishers, while the other options we could produce only gave 9 Mana apiece -- and the act of using the proc in itself gave a chance to proc another.
I know I for one have popped an Enhanced Scatter in single-target just for the speed. Sure it was a direct damage loss, but dropping a Jolt for it also saved multiple GCDs on the way to our melee combo.
Trying to rebalance this (or at least iron out the unintended niche) may very well have influenced the decision to remove Scatter.

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I'm also honestly not seeing how the new rotation is a faster buildup actually...

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In fairness to this point, the rotation does slow down slightly once you pick up Impact (as each of the quickcasts produce 7 Mana of their respective types while Impact produces only 6 total), which is a point I hope they will change.
Even at Impact 4/4, you'd be 41-34 which while below 10 Scatters with 2 or more procs, would be stronger than one proc and still be more reliable, not to mention generally less mindless.
Personally I hope they go the full 9 yards and tweak it to give more Mana based on the number of targets hit.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

In our case, the aesthetic of balancing white and black magic, of weaving magic with fencing, of agilely flipping in and out of action -- trying to fit the "jack of all trades" imagery into a pure DPS with supportive utility.

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We sure are supportive now with our uh Addle and uh our two other skills that cost us 274~368 potency per cast while stalling our actual job mechanics. I am really low key hoping that they take VerRaise off the GCD [Same for SMN if they still even have a raise] and just put it on a 60 second timer.

If we lack any real tools to keep people off the ground we shouldn't be punished for when they die. Our support shouldn't cost us DPS. See the rework of Mage's Ballad [Damage reduced, PT MP restored over time] into refresh [no cost MP restore over time.]

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

We sure are supportive now with our uh Addle and uh our two other skills that cost us 274~368 potency per cast while stalling our actual job mechanics.

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I mean... would you rather not have Vercure and Verraise? Nobody's forcing you to use them.

Also, why do you people keep on naming role actions as if they're exclusive to us? BLM gets the same ones we do, I've yet to see anyone claiming BLM gets potent utility. Erase and Apocatastasis weren't exactly gamechanging like the stuns melee get or the interrupts ranged are getting, they just let us sneak the value of an Esuna or heal in before the healer does -- like wow, you saved them the MP of one of their cheapest casts?

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I mean... would you rather not have Vercure and Verraise? Nobody's forcing you to use them.

Also, why do you people keep on naming role actions as if they're exclusive to us? BLM gets the same ones we do, I've yet to see anyone claiming BLM gets potent utility. Erase and Apocatastasis weren't exactly gamechanging like the stuns melee get or the interrupts ranged are getting, they just let us sneak the value of an Esuna or heal in before the healer does -- like wow, you saved them the MP of one of their cheapest casts?

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If someone dies with a BLM in the party, what does the BLM care so long as the run is still viable? It won't affect their rotation in the slightest. If someone dies with a RDM in the party and both healers aren't able to raise, guess who should be raising?

RDM has an incentive to stay supportive, BLM is the selfish DPS archetype. Even though they shared the same skills, using Manashift was much more detrimental to their DPS and was really only available during their umbral phase again, because of DPS. All of their OGCD support skills really rely on triple cast use lining up with their need to use it.

RDM can support on the fly. Every 3 seconds we can shoot off that OGCD ability and at no cost. This made the support feel natural and added to the complexity of the job without being a burden to DPS, like it is on BLM.

Its more like, if those were considered "roles" of the caster then why didn't SE further them into SHB? Why didn't we see more meaningful skills worth staying as a role skill, something like Erase at 400 potency and 60 second CD? Looking at dancer's OGCD 400 potency AOE heal and GUN's 1200 HoT really shows that they are all for giving non-healing classes limited OGCD healing/party mitigation for burst moments.

Why then did they skip casters, when they had already established that casters could contribute to party survivability with the previous role skills [Addle, manashift, erase, apocastasis.] Why remove them when we have no button bloat?

If Dancer is the only Ranged with a viable heal, I don't see why RDM couldn't bring one as well. Vercure is great and all, but its well known that its just for its RDM novelty and for when you need to proc a dualcast before a boss reappears.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

If we lack any real tools to keep people off the ground we shouldn't be punished for when they die. Our support shouldn't cost us DPS. See the rework of Mage's Ballad [Damage reduced, PT MP restored over time] into refresh [no cost MP restore over time.]

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This is literally like the worst example to use, because it's one of the reasons Ranged DPS came extremely close to completely invalidating casters.