Cleric Stance Rework (Suggestion)

DPS as a healer has become a complete bore since Stormblood stripped away a bunch of our abilities and destroyed Cleric Stance.

Basically, I hate new cleric, I preferred the old cleric. I feel the old cleric was a way better expression of skill than the bog standard cooldown we have right now. People claim it was clunky, that it was too punishing and caused wipes. I say yeah right, more like you just weren't playing healer correctly. Healing should be proactive, not reactive. You should know what to expect from a given encounter and when it's safe to dip into cleric for a few seconds. It was super fun and satisfying learning to master the stance dance. It made you feel great.

After playing in Pyros with Wisdom of the Aetherweaver, which is a fantastic ability and I highly recommend everyone give it a spin, I feel a modified version of that ability would be a perfect take on Cleric Stance.

- Keep the current mind scaling on damage, so people aren't pressured into using cleric if they're too scared that people will die and their 5 second Cleric cooldown will cause a wipe. They can still deal ok damage.

- Revert Cleric back to a toggled stance which reduces your healing output while active.

- Increase the damage bonus of Cleric Stance to 25-35% or so.

Basically, make DPSing as a healer other than SCH fun and interactive again, risky but rewarding, satisfying to master the role. Applying a DoT or two then spamming a single button for 20s isn't fun. Changing Cleric this way, while retaining the current mind scaling, allows those who wish to do so the opportunity to challenge and push themselves to to better, while also making DPS accessible to anyone who either can't or won't use Cleric out of fear of whatever.

Old Cleric Stance was bs, sure mechanics are predictable but you would still need to clear the dungeon/trial multiple times before you have it somewhat memorized, and can effectively start using Cleric Stance.

The bigger issue is that while mechanics are predictable, players in PUGs aren't, you do your usual groundwork and give the tank regen/mitigation you always do before switching to Cleric Stance to get some DPS in, only for the tank to not use their tools and die anyway. That, or the DPS players in your group getting hit by something as you switch to Cleric Stance, and then having no way to save them due to you being stuck in Cleric Stance for a bit.

And personally, I always saw Cleric Stance as pointless busywork, having to press a button to get into and out of "DPS mode" doesn't suddenly make playing a healer interesting.

If you want to DPS so bad, be a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Old Cleric Stance was bs, sure mechanics are predictable but you would still need to clear the dungeon/trial multiple times before you have it somewhat memorized, and can effectively start using Cleric Stance.

The bigger issue is that while mechanics are predictable, players in PUGs aren't, you do your usual groundwork and give the tank regen/mitigation you always do before switching to Cleric Stance to get some DPS in, only for the tank to not use their tools and die anyway. That, or the DPS players in your group getting hit by something as you switch to Cleric Stance, and then having no way to save them due to you being stuck in Cleric Stance for a bit.

And personally, I always saw Cleric Stance as pointless busywork, having to press a button to get into and out of "DPS mode" doesn't suddenly make playing a healer interesting.

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Completely disagree. Those party member errors would have happened regardless and it's on you to recognise when it's safe to toggle cleric. You don't just go into a pug and mindlessly start cleric stance DPSing till after the first trash pack and you get an idea on the ability of your team mates. If later in the dungeon they die to stupid while you're in cleric, it's on them to learn to not do it in future. It's things like this "what if?" that cause the general playerbase to be so coddled to the point healers feel obligated to babysit them and it's why you see level 70 players in old, outdated content to just sit there spamming Cure. Take a risk and learn from it. I don't buy the "we only have DPS abilities for MSQ" excuse either from the non-DPS purists. Nothing in the MSQ warrants anything more than Stone spam.

This is also why I suggest keeping the current mind scaling, so that even if those kinds of people don't want to use the stance, they can still put out respectable damage.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

If you want to DPS so bad, be a DPS.

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Fantastic counterpoint, 10/10 would consider again.

Actually, I think I'd prefer DPS additions to healers' kits more than a clunky Cleric Stance system. Just allow us to do more things, have parts of DPS rotation that generate healing or buffing, I don't know.

It was always BS that attack magic was based on INT even if you were a White Mage. It's not like that in any FF game I know, it's always been MND=White Magic damage, INT=Black Magic Damage. I'm glad they changed it. On the other hand, stances are usually a double-edged sword, so I think they could either change the name of Cleric Stance or give it a double-edge. Perhaps increase spell damage but increase MP cost or something. Or increases damage but also slows your cast time or increases your GCD.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Fantastic counterpoint, 10/10 would consider again.

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You're welcome, I do what I can.

I mean, people in any game that let you change stats or builds insist on going Max Damage Per Second and nothing else matters. Everything else is a wasted attribute because it doesn't increase damage. That doesn't work when there are certain roles required. Therefore, in conclusion, if you want those Sick Deeps, be a DPS. That's not the healer's main job. Sure they're encouraged to, and often do, but their priority is healing. Just like how some DPS classes (like SMN and RDM) can heal and rez. It's not their main job, but if it comes down to it, they can help in a pinch. But their job is doing damage. Ya dig? Or is that just another 10/10 counterpoint?

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Originally Posted by Doozer

You're welcome, I do what I can.

I mean, people in any game that let you change stats or builds insist on going Max Damage Per Second and nothing else matters. Everything else is a wasted attribute because it doesn't increase damage. That doesn't work when there are certain roles required. Therefore, in conclusion, if you want those Sick Deeps, be a DPS. That's not the healer's main job. Sure they're encouraged to, and often do, but their priority is healing. Just like how some DPS classes (like SMN and RDM) can heal and rez. It's not their main job, but if it comes down to it, they can help in a pinch. But their job is doing damage. Ya dig? Or is that just another 10/10 counterpoint?

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I am not too sure, I often cast more dps than healing skills on a healer job. Dealing damage is a huge part of the healer job, it should be more fun. Granted old Cleric Stance was BS and I don't want it back and I don't like OP's idea either. But right now dps abilities on healers feel like an afterthought, they could be more interesting.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

- Keep the current mind scaling on damage, so people aren't pressured into using cleric if they're too scared that people will die and their 5 second Cleric cooldown will cause a wipe. They can still deal ok damage.

- Revert Cleric back to a toggled stance which reduces your healing output while active.

- Increase the damage bonus of Cleric Stance to 25-35% or so.

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25-35% damage bonus is huge. And you think people will not be pressured into using this stance?

so i guess like Tank stances but for healers would work
a switch to change things up a bit

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Originally Posted by Duskane

so i guess like Tank stances but for healers would work
a switch to change things up a bit

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Tank stance doesn't even work for tanks. Tanks ARE pressured into dps stance. Why add options when the community doesn't accept them?

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Originally Posted by Tint

Tank stance doesn't even work for tanks. Tanks ARE pressured into dps stance. Why add options when the community doesn't accept them?

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wouldn't say pressured
never met someone ask the tank to go in DPS stance as MT
i understand in savage raids basically exclusively in them but the Community is a bit of a stretch

maybe it would be a good thing for healers spice up DPS and let those who casually heal in there Heal stance enjoy the extra "support" elements
and can be as a back up

I legitimately enjoyed stance dancing and was sad when I heard it was going away in SB, but it's been a year and a half now and I honestly haven't missed it at all.

That said, I do agree that the current CS needs work. A 5% buff on a 90 second CD is barely worth using.

I had mastered the art of cleric stance dancing and had fun doing it, but no, I don't want it back.

Don't forget that the devs stated objective for SB was to make jobs easier to play.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

so i guess like Tank stances but for healers would work
a switch to change things up a bit

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This is basically how CS worked. The thing is, if you reduce healing by a lot you basically have the BS system we had before. And if you don't reduce the healing that much you basically end up with healers always in dps stance.

I think that we also need to consider that if Cleric Stance was increased by a high percentage (say 20% or more), how long will it be when SE have to consider healer DPS for content? Sure the DPS that healers bring isn't game changing but having a high increase needs to have some kind of reprecussion.

OP mentioned Wisdom of the Aetherweaver from Pyros, but there were also some other actions there that could be more welcome for healers in terms of damage potential. It's either give healers more damage opportunities when it comes to fights, or increase the famage the party receives so more healing is actually required.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Sure the DPS that healers bring isn't game changing but having a high increase needs to have some kind of reprecussion.

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I dunno man... If both healers are playing optimally, their combined DPS is about as high as bringing in a 5th DPS, I'd say that's some big damage right there.

Either way, as I said earlier, I don't want the old Cleric Stance back or anything like it necessarily, but I would like to see healer DPS get more engaging.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I would like to see healer DPS get more engaging.

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I'd rather see healers become more engaging in non-DPS ways. Give us more support options or other things to do. Make it so DPS isn't the default downtime activity in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

I'd rather see healers become more engaging in non-DPS ways. Give us more support options or other things to do. Make it so DPS isn't the default downtime activity in the first place.

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That will never be the case as long as the game is designed around everyone doing as much damage as possible. Look as Astro and how Minor Arcana has become just another DPS tool, you don't even hold Lady of Crowns for anything and just throw it away for a quicker chance at Lord of Crowns for, you guessed it, more damage.

I get the sentiment that "healers want to heal", but quite frankly the game isn't designed in such a way that healing can ever be engaging since everything is 99% scripted with most content not even needing you to think about what heal to use at any given time. Almost everything can be solved by a single off global.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

That will never be the case as long as the game is designed around everyone doing as much damage as possible.

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But they could change that. They have the power. Nerf healer damage while in parties, lower heal potency forcing more, smaller heals, more support options, etc.

That won't happen obviously, this is SE we're talking about after all, but I can dream.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Almost everything can be solved by a single off global.

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Yeah, healing is mindbogglingly OP in this game. As much as I love being hilariously strong, there's no denying that the battle system needs a redesign and all healers needs massive nerfs.

FFXI is a good example of healers never needing to DPS really. For one, healer DPS was nearly non-existent on any relevant content due to extraordinary accuracy/evasion/defense checks, which mages didn't come anywhere near close enough, and also extremely low potencies on any and all damage spells. That said, battles were not scripted, so healers had to always be on their toes to heal and remove debuffs (which almost everything was raid wide debuffs). Healers had to upkeep single target buffs on themselves (refresh,stoneskin) as well as making sure tanks were always capped because damage was unavoidable/undodgeable, and tank cooldowns were 3-5min each.

Sort of. In XI MP was a much more valuable resource and there was a lot of literally doing nothing mid fight in order to not waste, or rest back MP (at least in 75 era XI, no idea what it's like now.) If MP worked like in XIV you bet healers would have been nuking regularly.

I will agree, what prevented healer DPS in XI was the preciousness of MP. It's a bit less of a problem now a days thanks to having things like 10-16mp/tick refresh available via gear and songs but it's still important not to waste MP on frivolous things.

Also healer nukes were generally very weak. WHM nukes were both expensive and had long recasts so you couldn't just spam DPS spells all day. RDM nukes capped at tier... 3 I think at 75? Which were pitiful in damage compared to BLM or SCH. And SCH nuking required the use of a Stratagem (think Aetherflow in some fashion) to get access to their largest nukes, and those Stratagems could be used to augment your healing spells.

The funny thing about healer DPS in XI is the fact that meleeing as a healer would be more effective than nuking as a healer - especially since WHM can essentially get infinite MP with the right gearing and party setups and some of the fight benefited having your WHM be afflicted with debuffs as well due to Esuna.

I was really happy when the old Cleric Stance was removed. It's so much better now.
Of course I used Cleric Stance back then but it was a really annoying mechanic.

I would prefer it if they made healer DPS engaging in another way. And maybe give healers also something else than only DPS to use when not healing. But at least make healer DPS a little more interesting as long as it's not overly complicated.

Some people would like it if WHM only would get back the old Cleric Stance. I think I would main AST or SCH then instead. I've been WHM since the beginning. I've often thought I should switch but always stayed WHM. But if the old Cleric Stance would come back to WHM I wouldn't even hesitate to switch if the rest of WHM's kit would stay the same. It would even make more sense if SCH got it instead.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

- Keep the current mind scaling on damage, so people aren't pressured into using cleric if they're too scared that people will die and their 5 second Cleric cooldown will cause a wipe. They can still deal ok damage.

- Revert Cleric back to a toggled stance which reduces your healing output while active.

- Increase the damage bonus of Cleric Stance to 25-35% or so.

Basically, make DPSing as a healer other than SCH fun and interactive again, risky but rewarding, satisfying to master the role. Applying a DoT or two then spamming a single button for 20s isn't fun. Changing Cleric this way, while retaining the current mind scaling, allows those who wish to do so the opportunity to challenge and push themselves to to better, while also making DPS accessible to anyone who either can't or won't use Cleric out of fear of whatever.

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I don't like the new cleric stance either. I was VERY indifferent about the removal of the old one. Basically I didn't care either way. Because all it was to me was an extra chore to turn off before pressing heal abilities.
I don't think adding it back but slightly less polarizing than before is the right thing to do. You advertised this thread as a "rework," but it's really just the same thing.
I don't think Cleric Stance needs to stay in the game at all. Instead, they should give us more buffing capabilities to keep us interested and involved rather than damage abilities OR cleric stance.
More buffing of other players. Since "Healer" doesn't really exist in FFXIV, and they're more like "DPS with healing tools," they should just turn us into full-on heal+support jobs, with tons of focus on buffing allies, and some dps to fill with. That'd be a much more interesting experience than adding chores.

I prefer the new Cleric Stance mechanically. That said, the skill could use a serious buff to the effect.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I prefer the new Cleric Stance mechanically. That said, the skill could use a serious buff to the effect.

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Well now, that's more or less okay, but when we used to only have 5 slots availaible, is was a really "meeeeh" option.

I honestly think it'll completely vanish in SHB.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Well now, that's more or less okay, but when we used to only have 5 slots availaible, is was a really "meeeeh" option.

I honestly think it'll completely vanish in SHB.

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Well as long as FFXIV does not "force" more DPS on the healers (by adding more DPS options in their kit or these kind of buffs, making rougher raid DPS requirements), it's most likely to stay as it is for now. Available for those who want it, but not so necessary.
I see some kind of "shy" progression towards that healer DPS requirements, but I really wish they would push it a bit further (at least on high end content).

I think what healer dps really needs is to be slightly more complex. Sch is fun because it was based on the core of a dps class. So it's more engaging that whm and ast. Job gauges were a step in the right direction and I think if they started weaving a simplified version of what dps have for healers people would be more engaged.

Sch is a good framework to go from since the fey gauge benefits from the use of dps abilities (mainly bane) as well as healing abilities. introducing a similar concept to whm and ast would be a nice step

It's crazy to me that anyone would actually want the old cleric. I bet there isn't a single tank main in this game that misses it, and most are probably saying good riddance. if you were competent with it, that's all well and good, but most healers were not. However, I'd be hard pressed to believe that five second window didn't catch even the best healers off guard on occasion.

I actually like cleric now in its role skill state and took it along on all three healers even when only five were allowed. Adding that extra dps to holy spam or lightspeed+gravity spam is freakin awesome. My only gripe is the short duration in conjunction with the long cooldown. But alas, we are not DPS jobs.

I think stance dancing will return with DNC. Not like cleric of old though. I predict it will swap stances to access different dances and steps. Please look forward to it :p

"Stance" implies some sort of downside, so I'd like them to change that. Perhaps make it +10% damage but increase MP cost or something.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

And personally, I always saw Cleric Stance as pointless busywork, having to press a button to get into and out of "DPS mode" doesn't suddenly make playing a healer interesting.

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Man, I don't like to put in any effort either.

I was actually thinking of something similar which can also be used as a nod to past FFs:

Zombie: inflicts a debuff on one target that allows healers to damage using their healing spells and abilities. Shields have no effect on the target. Benediction has no effect.

This would be a powerful, but limited, way to increase healer DPS drastically (since healing tends to have higher potency than damage spells), while also not messing with the rotation of anyone else. Healers would have a reason to spam their Physick, Benefic, or Cure again (OMG!). But WHMs would definitely benefit more than the others:

SCH: Adlo is expensive and the shield doesn't do anything. They can spam Lustrate, but then they wouldn't be using Energy Drain. They would benefit from free damage with Indom, though. Maybe the fairy can Embrace for some free damage?

AST: Can use Benefic or Benefic II, but with a 2.5 sec cast time they'd lose their mobility and weaving abilities if used alone, and Benefic II spam is expensive unless they use Lightspeed. They would benefit from free damage with Earthly Star, though.

WHM: Can use Cure, and with Freecure they'd get an occasional free 700 potency nuke, or spam Cure II with Thin Air. Regen would be an efficient, more powerful version of Aero. Assize would become 600 potency of damage. Under the current system, this would also generate Lillies...I guess.

This would probably have to be on a very long cooldown, though. What do you guys think?

I suppose something they could do, is to improve the interactivity of healers during healing downtime. Either by making DPS more than just Stone/Ruin/Malefic spam or by providing skills that apply buffs/debuffs (Though that may end up with the "Meta" being to keep 100% uptime of said buffs/debuffs even during healing)

Then they could make Cleric Stance, the same long CD short duration buff, but enhance it with more damage output AND a conversion of damage done to healing to allies. Meaning that you don't need to worry about needing to stop DPSing to heal for the duration (Or other such things like old Cleric Stance meaning you give up healing temporarily)

Thus, the healer playstyle would have this CD to play around, finding the opportune times to let loose and blast away, while the rest of the time, they heal like normal and just have a more engaging DPS rotation when there's not much to heal.

I think more damage while healing should come into effect. I just hope they dont get lazy and give WHM Stone 5 in 5.0 or SCH Broil 3