Eureka

Separate thread so it doesn't conflict with the Eureka information thread. What do you guys think about Eureka since most of its contents are now out in the open?

I've been waiting for open world content like this and as a fan off FFXI this looks like its right up my alley. Not to mention the return of the elemental wheel in the form of the Magia board brings back all those fun memories of fat fingering my macros for the umpteenth time.

Nostalgia aside I also welcome this new level or perhaps illusion (can't really tell until I play the content) of "Danger" while openly roaming an area. I've already seen complaints however that this content is not "accessible" to people and "to hard". I don't wanna sound mean but isn't the open world in this game kinda...ehhh? Like ehhh, you know a side feature, Its like for the one time adventure and then done unless you like wandering the areas. There's never any danger once you're max level in the open world either.

I want the enemy mapping from FF2 in Eureka.

My hot take without having played the content yet is that is looks like nothing new and boring in the long term. The only content in it discussed in the live letter was monster grinding, an elemental leveling system, and FATE like difficult monsters to tackle as a group. That is basically Diadem, but with an elemental system added.

I’m ok with all of those things, but I was hoping for more meat. There are so many ways they could have added more variety and depth, even sticking to the FFXI theme (Monsters dropping keys to chests found hidden around the zone, mini-besieges where we need to defend the outpost towns from attack, gathering points around enemies so you have to work as a team to get them, items from the monster grind you can collect and spend to go up against solo challenges, etc, etc) but instead it’s the simplest design they could have possibly announced. I went from very excited about Eureka’s potiential to “Well, I guess I’ll do it.”

Will this be available only if you're up to speed with the insane grindfest that is artifact weapons? I didn't even collect half of the atmas.

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Originally Posted by Leowilde

Will this be available only if you're up to speed with the insane grindfest that is artifact weapons? I didn't even collect half of the atmas.

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thank goodness no. it's completely stand-alone. Everybody starts off the new relic the same way.

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Originally Posted by dragonkyn20

thank goodness no. it's completely stand-alone. Everybody starts off the new relic the same way.

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Oh man PHEW! :D I was afraid I'd be missing out on this!

I'm worried that many will rage quit this because things like "I never get the item" or "Diadem all over again GG". I honestly don't mind the idea of working for good gear, I also plan on going in as a healer seeing as those are fairly rare and WHM has yet to disappoint with class gear looking great.

I thought it would be a beautiful floating jungle like the Amazonas in South America but it looks much crappier from the pictures I've seen, at the very least I hope it's better than the Diadem which is rather horrible!...

The issue is when it comes to rare drops from NMs it stops becoming "working for it" and quickly becomes "sacrifice a lalafell and pray you get your drop". I don't mind a NM being difficult to defeat for a drop but I hate low drop rates.

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Originally Posted by Alestorm

I'm worried that many will rage quit this because things like "I never get the item" or "Diadem all over again GG". I honestly don't mind the idea of working for good gear, I also plan on going in as a healer seeing as those are fairly rare and WHM has yet to disappoint with class gear looking great.

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Oh, people will rage quit and complain at length.. that is a guarantee. Would expect nothing less of our community.

Well... let's just say the more I learn about it, the less hyped I am.

It's probably gonna boil down to making a full party to grind out random mobs in an AoE fest until a NM pops. Then you pray people call out the NM, rush there to zerg it down and pray again to get enough credit for a chance at a drop. Going in solo is probably not going to be fruitful and going in as a group probably will be a cakewalk unless you go into high level territory as lowie.

They are probably tying this to the relic for a good reason.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

The issue is when it comes to rare drops from NMs it stops becoming "working for it" and quickly becomes "sacrifice a lalafell and pray you get your drop". I don't mind a NM being difficult to defeat for a drop but I hate low drop rates.

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I mean this is true but the point is to keep you playing, not instant gratification. That's the reason you keep coming back, just the hope of getting the item. Then again it depends on how low the drop rate will be, which we don't know quite yet.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

"sacrifice a lalafell and pray you get your drop"

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This is why I always bring my pack of sacrificial lalas.

I wonder why it is that every time they try to implement something similar to the way XI was, people immediately hate that theres RNG and mob grinding.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I wonder why it is that every time they try to implement something similar to the way XI was, people immediately hate that theres RNG and mob grinding.

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I for one loved a lot about FFXI, but if all Eureka has to offer is RNG and mob grinding then that is nothing like FFXI. XI was a huuuge grindfest for sure, but in addition to that there was a lot of variety. When they added new content that content stayed viable for years. In FFXIV when new stuff is added it replaces the old stuff and only stays viable for a few months.

not sure what FFXI you played but the one i played was exactly like Eureka. You spent hours grinding just get 1 maybe 2 levels. and when you finally reached lvl 75 the only thing to do was camp NMs in sky. then they added thavanzia or w/e and access to that area was gated behind low lvl fights that you didn't have level sync for so you then needed low level gear go do, and if you didn't have the right job you had to depend on the generosity of other players to take you along for the fight. Most people only wanted to kite kill things because melee gave the mob tp which let it do moves that didn't have ground aoes to run out of which cause you to get hit which cause healers to have to heal you instead of the tank which ran then out of mp and since mp didn't regenerate like it does in this game that was probably a wipe. so no. nothing in eureka sounds good to me.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

not sure what FFXI you played but the one i played was exactly like Eureka. nothing in eureka sounds good to me.

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There was that too, aye :P FFXI was an MMO back when MMOs were monsters that made you bleed for every little bit of progression. I’m just arguing that at least there was a wide range of content to do inside of that mess. Unless there’s more to Eureka than was discussed in the live letter it’s only a sampling of that variety (party up, grind monsters) and worse yet, it’s a sample that we already had in the game in the form of the Diadem.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

I for one loved a lot about FFXI, but if all Eureka has to offer is RNG and mob grinding then that is nothing like FFXI. XI was a huuuge grindfest for sure, but in addition to that there was a lot of variety. When they added new content that content stayed viable for years. In FFXIV when new stuff is added it replaces the old stuff and only stays viable for a few months.

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While I agree that the lifespan of the content FFXIV releases is wayyyy more short lived then that of FFXI, there's no denying that a large part of FFXI gameplay involved grouping with party members to grind for long hours to complete an objective. I think Eureka could easily be expanded upon and will be due to the relatively low level cap of the Magia Board. (Plus the Magia UI is just begging to be expanded upon, look at allllllll that free space.)

Having watched the LL as it was going, I will say Eureka looked more fun than I expected.

Seems packed with mobs everywhere though. This only upsets me because the scenery is so pretty I want to go take screen shoots already. XD

The progression system seems fun enough, they've said it can be done solo, but that you're encourages to group up, and I like that they fixed the problems I had with diadem (People you queue with leave as soon as the mission is done, now you're SoL if the emergency mission spawns cause you have no party.

You can make parties inside.

If they did that with Diadem I might actually have done it more. There were people fate grinding, just never my group ;;

I can't wait to see all the threads to be about crying because they aggro'd something and cant get rid of it.

I think the players will make or break Eureka. If there is sufficient interest for this sort of higher-risk higher-effort sort of content, then the zone will remain active and the population stable, which should keep things moving along.

If, on the other hand the player base abandons this as too “unfun”, or “too much effort” or “too hard”, then the devs will have the proof they need that this sort of design philosophy that worked in 2002 no longer does in 2018, and people can finally stop trying to bring it back.

Either way, it should prove interesting.

I think the xp loss on death is going to piss a lot of people off and its going to get nerfed because of complaints. Plus there exists the potential of abuse and trolling on top of it. Yeah... I can just see the very angry threads from the future now. Otherwise, I'm looking forward to actually playing it and getting a start on the Relic stuff. Finally.

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Originally Posted by Emstidor

I think the players will make or break Eureka. If there is sufficient interest for this sort of higher-risk higher-effort sort of content, then the zone will remain active and the population stable, which should keep things moving along.

If, on the other hand the player base abandons this as too “unfun”, or “too much effort” or “too hard”, then the devs will have the proof they need that this sort of design philosophy that worked in 2002 no longer does in 2018, and people can finally stop trying to bring it back.

Either way, it should prove interesting.

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I think this is why they tied it to relic so that the reward gotten for grinding for all that work is significant. I think the design can work, the rewards just need to be worth it, being able to spin the Magia Board adds another interesting facet to the grind too.

Looks and sounds awful from what I've seen and read, but the relics are tied to it and I want mine, so I don't have much choice in the matter.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is Diadem and what is Eureka and why should I care? Is it worth doing or can I safely ignore it and stick to Mendacity farming?

EDIT: Oops sorry, just saw the other thread. Sounds boring so I will skip it. kthxbye :3

I could be (and honestly hope I am) wrong but it looks like they took all of the superficial things from XI and are trying to shoehorn them into XIV. It seems needlessly complicated while at the same time promising to be a rather shallow grind-a-thon.

Well for a game I look to doing all parts of, I really thinking this isn't something I will have fun with.
I will wait and see but building parties isn't something I like doing if I did I would still be playing 11

Sounds like Diadem with an elemental leveling system tackled with relics so people have a reason to actually do it. Question is, will it be dead in two weeks like Diadem was when it's basically the same thing without the gathering...

It looks like something terribly horrible and boring that I'll be happy to avoid.
I get the nostalgua factor, but why add mechanics from a different and much older game into another? If i wanted crazy grind and elemental proprieties I'd go back to Ragnarok.

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Originally Posted by Soupa

I mean this is true but the point is to keep you playing, not instant gratification. That's the reason you keep coming back, just the hope of getting the item. Then again it depends on how low the drop rate will be, which we don't know quite yet.

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Who said anything about instant gratification?

There are better ways of prolonging content than RNG for a rare drop. Here's an example.
1. A rare drop happens 1% of the time which means if you kill the mob 100 times you are likely to get it at some point but its also possible to kill it 200 times and get nothing. This removes all control over the rewards from the player, thats never a good thing and only serves to create frustration among players. There is ample evidence on these forums alone for this.
2. A drop is gauranteed every time the mob is killed but SE requires 100 of them. The player knows exactly how much work is required and can easily measure their progress to stay motivated. They can see how close they're getting and don't get frustrated because RNG hates them. They know exactly where they are and when they'll be done.

Both options should have the player finish in 100 kills. The first isn't a sure thing, the second is. Both require a time investment and neither has instant gratification (unless RNG blesses you on the first kill). I would keep doing the second type of reward, I'd give up on the first quickly because I have better things to do with my time.

As for how low the drop rate will be...given SE's history with drop rates? Abysmal.

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

Sounds like Diadem with an elemental leveling system tackled with relics so people have a reason to actually do it. Question is, will it be dead in two weeks like Diadem was when it's basically the same thing without the gathering...

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Don't expect people to finish the relict part within 2 weeks

A few negatives points about this:

- If these monsters work a bit like hunts how long will it take for people to be angry that someone else did not wait long enough and killed it before they could reach it?
- How much work will spawning these monsters take? Will the people that did the hard work on spawning them get anything from that? With hunts you have some people doing all the hard work for S hunts and yet have others snatch them away from them thus getting no credit for it, which is the reason some of them dont even call them out anymore.
- Is there any safety net to prevent people from trolling others by taking monsters to them and killing them with that?
-Is the relic gear set truly just a dyeable version of another existing set? Cant we have at least these things as something completely unique? People probably will be working a lot of time for this and will only receive old gear that is now dyeable.
-Will the RNG for the loot be over the top again?

And one of the biggest question I have: Can I realistically get my relic weapon without having to constantly party with other people? I really like it when they said that you can do that stuff solo too since I dont want to always have a party around..but right now it sounds like you cant do everything alone since you probably need to be in a group to get any kind of reward from a NM..it makes me a bit sad.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Don't expect people to finish the relict part within 2 weeks

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i expect most people will try to get it as soon as posible, and farm hard for it to get it on less of 1 week

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

Who said anything about instant gratification?

There are better ways of prolonging content than RNG for a rare drop. Here's an example.
1. A rare drop happens 1% of the time which means if you kill the mob 100 times you are likely to get it at some point but its also possible to kill it 200 times and get nothing. This removes all control over the rewards from the player, thats never a good thing and only serves to create frustration among players. There is ample evidence on these forums alone for this.
2. A drop is gauranteed every time the mob is killed but SE requires 100 of them. The player knows exactly how much work is required and can easily measure their progress to stay motivated. They can see how close they're getting and don't get frustrated because RNG hates them. They know exactly where they are and when they'll be done.

Both options should have the player finish in 100 kills. The first isn't a sure thing, the second is. Both require a time investment and neither has instant gratification (unless RNG blesses you on the first kill). I would keep doing the second type of reward, I'd give up on the first quickly because I have better things to do with my time.

As for how low the drop rate will be...given SE's history with drop rates? Abysmal.

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Getting one every time is the definition of instant gratification. While what you're saying is true, that doing a system like that would make players happy and provide a non-frustrating experience in obtaining their relic weapon/armor, it would make getting what you want painstakingly easy and that is not the goal with this content. It's goal has never been to keep people motivated or happy or even complete the relic in question, there are probably thousands maybe millions of unfinished relics out there.(I never did finish that ARR relic...)You're forgetting that relic's goal is, and has always been, to keep people playing.Relic has never been a necessary part of the game, it's always been optional side content for players to keep themselves entertained with, heck they're usually on par with relevant savage weapons. You always just have the option of just not doing it or dropping it if you don't like it. I disagree that the content should be made as easy as that, I'm for reasonably low drop rates. Someone said it earlier but players are gonna make or break this content and I agree, excited to see if people think the struggle is meaningful.

I'm just expecting it to become a Diadem 3.0.

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Originally Posted by FallenArisen0990

I'm just expecting it to become a Diadem 3.0.

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Same. Which is likely why they are allowing players the ability to do it solo. Enough people quit/hate it, those that don’t wont be shafted from progressing their Relics.

I just hope entering with a cross world party will be possible and that the armor and weapons will look nice. As someone who didn't mind the first version of Diadem, PotD, hunts and FATEs, I think this content will be enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Soupa

[...], it would make getting what you want painstakingly easy [...]

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You clearly don't understand how it works.

If something has a 1% drop rate, then on average, people will require 100 runs to get it (solo - groups are a multiplicator). If you get a token every time and need 100, then people will also run it 100 times on average. That means that the total amount of times the content is run is identical either way. Both systems "keep people playing" exactly the same way.

The difference lies only in the distribution - With RNG, you might only do it once, get your item and then stop. Another person however might need to run it 200 times. With tokens, both need to run it 100 times each. In other words: RNG drops is what allows people to "get things painstakingly easy", while others need to work harder to compensate. The overall work is the same on average, you just shift workload from the lucky who can quit early to the unlucky who have to work overtime. You make things easier for some and harder for others, the average difficulty is the same. Do I need to rephrase it again? I think the point should be driven home by now.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

You clearly don't understand how it works.

If something has a 1% drop rate, then on average, people will require 100 runs to get it (solo - groups are a multiplicator). If you get a token every time and need 100, then people will also run it 100 times on average. That means that the total amount of times the content is run is identical either way. Both systems "keep people playing" exactly the same way.

The difference lies only in the distribution - With RNG, you might only do it once, get your item and then stop. Another person however might need to run it 200 times. With tokens, both need to run it 100 times each. In other words: RNG drops is what allows people to "get things painstakingly easy", while others need to work harder to compensate. The overall work is the same on average, you just shift workload from the lucky who can quit early to the unlucky who have to work overtime. You make things easier for some and harder for others, the average difficulty is the same. Do I need to rephrase it again? I think the point should be driven home by now.

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This is just trying to keep the system fair and again easy. Stuff that isn't exactly needed in a grind. You don't need to be so hostile about it, this is just a discussion jeez.

Eureka seems to be a homage to FF11, but it is a homage to the worser part....

Its a homage to the openworld somewhat randomly spawning NMs, which always led to grief, and which the developers closed off by making drops rare/ex back in the day.

Why is it not a homage to the - more precisely spawning - NMs of Sky, Sea or ZNMs etc.

I do not like NMs with vague 'spawns when certain conditions are met'. I would prefer to farm tiers of NMs each for pop items to go up to the next tier. There is reliability there and players can plan what jobs they want to bring accordingly. Also lower tiers can be solo'd or lowmanned. So theres always something to do.

Having played FF11 for years, while openworld NMs led to a lot of discussion ingame and on forums, in practice most players camped things for a while then got fed up. It was a case of "been there done that, I'l just buy the item off the AH". Players got really fed up of openworld NMs because of drop rates and because of competition with gilsellers/bots. Contrast that to Dynamis or Sky. Those were - reliable -. Yes, it became boring after a while, but you knew what you would accomplish each time.


Also, the elemental weakness thing isnt much of a homage to FF11. Regardless of mobs, everyone just threw out Distortion & Freeze or Light & Thunder IV. Barspells were really never much of a thing, and a lot of WHMs never bothered casting them >.>

Element Weakness just seems to add a layer of nothingness. It doesn't add to the gameplay beneficially. It sort of reminds me of "stances", which are "set and forget".

I would have preferred a more interactive version of element weakness in the form of the "Element Field" from Chrono Cross, tweaked somewhat so players and mob battle to fill the element field to allow use of all their abilities.