Give Physical Ranged Dps knockback nullify ability

Plds have tempered will, casters and healers have surecast, and melee have arm’s length, but bards and machinists don’t have any knockback nullify abilities for some instances the have knockbacks. Do you think they should have one in the future?

BRDs and MCHs are the only ones who can attack from anywhere, any time, while on the move. They don't need a knockback blocker.

Or maybe we should allow cool things to go to some classes and not others so that they aren’t all the same thing with slightly different rotations and aesthetics.

Yes, they absolutely should. 100% in agreement here in implementing one.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

BRDs and MCHs are the only ones who can attack from anywhere, any time, while on the move. They don't need a knockback blocker.

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I disagree. The Vacuum Wave knockback in V4S knocks us back enough to where we aren’t in range to attack Exdeath anymore. RDMs have almost as much mobility as BRD/MCH, yet they have access to Surecast.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

BRDs and MCHs are the only ones who can attack from anywhere, any time, while on the move. They don't need a knockback blocker.

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Vacuum Wave pushes you outside max caster/ranged. Not to mention, some knock backs interrupt your GCDs, thus only BRD and MCH suffer a loss while no other DPS does.

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Originally Posted by Clicked

Or maybe we should allow cool things to go to some classes and not others so that they aren’t all the same thing with slightly different rotations and aesthetics.

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I would hardly classify cheesing knockback effects with a role action as "cool things" when all other jobs can do it except DRK. "Cool" would be DRG using Elusive Jump to maintain uptime, which is unique to them.

Well, don't the ranged melee gain the advantage of being able to attack when Thunder III needs to be dodged by the short ranged DPS and casters who need to run in for the cure stack afterwards?

You lose maybe 2 seconds by being knocked back before you are in range again, but they lose two seconds on that too, right?
We could analyze these kind of situations in all fights and it would never end o_o.

Are we going to start giving range to melee weaponskills so they can keep 100% up-time while dodging iron chariots, grabbing dooms, doing neuro-links, + every other breakaway mechanic too? :thinking:

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Originally Posted by Niqote

Well, don't the ranged melee gain the advantage of being able to attack when Thunder III needs to be dodged by the short ranged DPS and casters who need to run in for the cure stack afterwards?

You lose maybe 2 seconds by being knocked back before you are in range again, but they lose two seconds on that too, right?
We could analyze these kind of situations in all fights and it would never end o_o.

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If he does Void Thunder III. If he doesn’t, then melee are in luck. BRD/MCH lose a GCD for each Vacuum Wave each time because you aren’t skipping that. Especially if you don’t have a PLD to use Cover/Tempered Will, which many I have to actually ask for that, and it’s only up for one Vacuum Wave.

It’s not like BRD/MCH do as much damage as a melee of the same/equal skill as them, so giving them a knockback nullifier isn’t going to automatically make them “OP”.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

Are we going to start giving range to melee weaponskills so they can keep 100% up-time while dodging iron chariots, grabbing dooms, doing neuro-links, + every other breakaway mechanic too? :thinking:

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This is a strawman. If timed correctly, you won't lose any uptime dodging simply by knowing the range and timing when you back out. Regardless, the argument isn't about damage but the fact only three jobs out of fifteen have to "suck up" this one mechanic. It'd be a different argument if say, only Dragoon and Black Mage could cheese it due to Jumps and AM. But when twelve jobs have ways of completely negating a mechanic, and of the remaining three, one has a gap closer, I think it's fair for BRD/MCH to claim they want it too. I mean, back in Heavensward Dark Knight had the sole gap closer. Now Warrior has one. When Surecast made it so casters had to stop casting, the devs changed it at people's repeated requests. I don't see how the latter is any different than BRD/MCH saying they want a knock back immunity too.

Ranged dps already have 100% uptime in 99.99% of situations while outperforming melees if you factor in raid contribution. They don't need a niche-of-a-niche action to fill in the 0.01% they're missing. If melees have to constantly deal with positionals and breakaways; ranged physical can handle 1 lost GCD over the course of a 4 tiered raid. You lose auto attack uptime on breakaways, which affects nin's OGCD building. You're almost guaranteed to lose a GCD when you're doing neurolinks/chariot in ultimate, doom placements after a chariot also near guarantee a positional loss/GCD clip. You're stacked in front of nael for a decent amount of time which amounts to more of a loss in damage via positionals again. Whenever SMN, WHM or SCH use arm's length they use instant casts to weave in the OGCD, which is a potency loss whereas for a majority of knockback mechanics allow for uninterrupted ranged dps uptime.

Anyways, if I'm correct there is only one encounter where ranged DPS are blown out of attack range; o4s. In the warrior/caster case every knockback mechanic was a loss in uptime. Warriors also had an issue gap closing on newly spawned adds or gap closing back to the main boss after those adds were dead.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

But when twelve jobs have ways of completely negating a mechanic, and of the remaining three, one has a gap closer, I think it's fair for BRD/MCH to claim they want it too.

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By those standards, each of the twelve jobs should also get complete mobility and near 100% DPS uptime in all situations. Your own argument can be thrown back at you, BRD/MCH already have a huge advantage with mobility. Also it should be pointed out that not all jobs can negate all movement based mechanics. A PLD, for example, cannot use Tempered Will on both pushbacks on Exdeath.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

By those standards, each of the twelve jobs should also get complete mobility and near 100% DPS uptime in all situations. Your own argument can be thrown back at you, BRD/MCH already have a huge advantage with mobility. Also it should be pointed out that not all jobs can negate all movement based mechanics. A PLD, for example, cannot use Tempered Will on both pushbacks on Exdeath.

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Those aren't the same standards though. If we're going to use the mobility standard, why did Surecast get changed? Casters have near 100% uptime yet weren't told to "suck it up." At this point, it isn't even about damage but more an annoyance. Is it necessary? No. At best it would be a QoL change.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

By those standards, each of the twelve jobs should also get complete mobility and near 100% DPS uptime in all situations. Your own argument can be thrown back at you, BRD/MCH already have a huge advantage with mobility. Also it should be pointed out that not all jobs can negate all movement based mechanics. A PLD, for example, cannot use Tempered Will on both pushbacks on Exdeath.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It'd be a different argument if say, only Dragoon and Black Mage could cheese it due to Jumps and AM.

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"Everyone else has something, phys ranged should have something too" and "Only two jobs have something, everybody else should have that something" are completely different arguments and one can't be used to negate the other.

What I do know is our bard is the only person in my static who gets blown back by every vacuum wave, and the only person who has no direct answer for Tidal Wave. It's an annoyance for the whole party to have to accommodate for. Does it break the game? Not at all--but that doesn't mean it's not annoying.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Those aren't the same standards though. If we're going to use the mobility standard, why did Surecast get changed? Casters have near 100% uptime yet weren't told to "suck it up." At this point, it isn't even about damage but more an annoyance. Is it necessary? No. At best it would be a QoL change.

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Eh...casters have cast times, so they lose attacks if they have to dodge...Bards and machinists can attack on the move, whenever and wherever they appear to, even if they'd have to run in circles all the time. Casters, even red mages, cannot do that (unless we'll count the instant-cast spells that are very weak and tend to be costly...if the caster does have them).

There is no class that have anywhere near bards and machinists mobility. There's a knockback?! And?! Bards and machinists don't lose anything at all from actually going to the right point to make it irrelevant (alright, you cannot actually use skills during the sliding). Every other class does. If there's a knockback that pushes so far as to make the player out of range even on bard/machinist, then gap closers which are HALF of their range are just pitiful, so even Dark Knights lack any means of dealing with it.

All in all, other classes get actual performance from anti-knockback (and even then, except for Surecast, those skills have unnecessarily high cooldown). It's only quality of life skill for bards/machinists, with no actual change in anything (heck, if used at the wrong time, the short animation lock can actually lower their performance...by too little to be relevant).

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Originally Posted by kikix12

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When you’re speaking from a damage standpoint, then fine. Don’t give it to BRD/MCH. But considering that twelve other jobs can just completely ignore an annoying mechanic, and BRD/MCH just have to deal with it...well, I’d appreciate the QoL change. I don’t really like having to beg the PLD in V4S to cover me; which most don’t even do. It’s an annoyance, and I’d like to have a chance to ignore said annoyance like nearly every other job can.

I mean, they changed Surecast to allow casters to continue casting while it’s active because casters complained about losing the GCD prior. QoL. Why can’t BRD/MCH have a QoL? Maybe they could make one of the Graze skills actually useful by adding a knockback nullification to it; since most of the Graze abilities are completely worthless in most, if not all, content.

Give ranged dps a knockback enhancement so they'll fly twice as far as everyone else. Challenge mode engaged.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

"Everyone else has something, phys ranged should have something too" and "Only two jobs have something, everybody else should have that something" are completely different arguments and one can't be used to negate the other.

What I do know is our bard is the only person in my static who gets blown back by every vacuum wave, and the only person who has no direct answer for Tidal Wave. It's an annoyance for the whole party to have to accommodate for. Does it break the game? Not at all--but that doesn't mean it's not annoying.

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Agreed 100%

They're two completely different arguments and is purely a QoL add on, not a game changing feature.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If he does Void Thunder III. If he doesn’t, then melee are in luck. BRD/MCH lose a GCD for each Vacuum Wave each time because you aren’t skipping that. Especially if you don’t have a PLD to use Cover/Tempered Will, which many I have to actually ask for that, and it’s only up for one Vacuum Wave.

It’s not like BRD/MCH do as much damage as a melee of the same/equal skill as them, so giving them a knockback nullifier isn’t going to automatically make them “OP”.

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I don’t think Bard or Machinist need a knock back prevention tool, the situations are way too sparse to justify it. In terms of your example, both healers can rescue a range on each vacuum wave, and like you said, Paladin has cover. Even if both parties refuse to help you, our massive convenience of pew pew’ing outweighs our inability to prevent push back :V

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

I don’t think Bard or Machinist need a knock back prevention tool, the situations are way too sparse to justify it. In terms of your example, both healers can rescue a range on each vacuum wave, and like you said, Paladin has cover. Even if both parties refuse to help you, our massive convenience of pew pew’ing outweighs our inability to prevent push back :V

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I see those at more inconveniences for those jobs tbh. It gives them extra responsibilities that range dps could solve with a single button press like any other job. In addition, healers would have to sacrifice their already extremely tight tool kit of cross role skills to babysit the range dps. And if there's two range dps, then one of them is out of luck. Giving range a knockback prevention would not only be a QoL for the range dps but also so the other jobs wouldn't have to hold their hand on annoying mechanics.

Bring back bowcasters and then give them knockback prevention :P

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

Agreed 100%

They're two completely different arguments and is purely a QoL add on, not a game changing feature.

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Maybe they should just remove knockback, huh?!...Yeah...no.

Honestly, casters are the only ones that can reliably negate knockbacks. Surecast have only 30sec cooldown and 5sec up-time. Paladins skill have 180sec cooldown and 10sec up-time. The skill is so weak in comparison, that I would honestly prefer it to be changed into something entirely different because of that insane cooldown. In terms of melee, it's still 60sec for 5sec up-time, but at least have slow effect added (which won't really matter against bosses).

In case of melee and casters, anti-knockback evens out the odds a little bit against the ranged. Melee don't have to waste time on movement while casters don't waste their spells in the middle of the cast. Ranged, simply speaking, are scarcely affected. Generally it's nothing that positioning (which costs them nothing) can't solve.

Classes are supposed to have strengths and weaknesses based entirely on their role. Casters have the glaring weakness of cast times. Melee the weakness of having to be near. And ranged?!...Eh...yeah?! Right...And you want to remove the slightest semblance of weakness...I'm not talking here about the stats or potency of the skills, I'm talking about the core gameplay. Ranged have NO weaknesses. They can attack from up close and at range. They can attack while moving. They can stay away from dangerous cleaves and swipes of bosses without being affected by it, and the closest they ever need to get is about 20 yalms away from the tank, to be sure that they will be caught by Medica and similar even if the healer is overly fond of stacking almost on top of the tank to keep him in range...

If you want to remove weaknesses, small or large, make the suggestion while adding new ones. Or, hey...A bow-mage is still an option. Then, by all means, go ahead and ask for a sure-cast grade of anti-knockback.

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

I see those at more inconveniences for those jobs tbh. It gives them extra responsibilities that range dps could solve with a single button press like any other job. In addition, healers would have to sacrifice their already extremely tight tool kit of cross role skills to babysit the range dps. And if there's two range dps, then one of them is out of luck. Giving range a knockback prevention would not only be a QoL for the range dps but also so the other jobs wouldn't have to hold their hand on annoying mechanics.

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I get what you’re saying 100%, I still think it’s not a requirement. I keep seeing people saying it’ll be a QoL change, but I personally see it as an intentional design choice. It makes sense, to me, why Bard and Machinist don’t have a preventive knock back move, just as it makes sense why we don’t have a gap closer either. It makes sense why Red Mage and Black Mage can teleport around, and why Summoner cannot. It makes sense why Melee have so many tools to stay on the boss (both role class and their job class), and why tanks only have one/none. Just my .02 though

...physical ranged has aoe refresh and tp regain, that no longer require sacrificing DPS for. That's a hell of a lot more imbalance than other jobs having surecast is. Ranged physical has a group movement speed up buff. I mean, they get so much already, why to they have to be 100% perfect dps?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

...physical ranged has aoe refresh and tp regain, that no longer require sacrificing DPS for. That's a hell of a lot more imbalance than other jobs having surecast is. Ranged physical has a group movement speed up buff. I mean, they get so much already, why to they have to be 100% perfect dps?

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....What? You do realize Refresh and Tactician were a godsend to the old ways of MP/TP Refresh, right? So many people would not Promote their turret, nor sing Mage's or Army's when needed because of the DPS loss; MCH actually suffered a bit more than BRD in that regard because of how turret damage was weighted. We get "so much" at the cost of personal DPS--at least with regards to BRD because at most percentiles we're only doing more damage than the RDM with instant Raises every GCD.

Also, you can't use Swiftsong (Peloton) in battle so....your argument with that is what, exactly?

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

I get what you’re saying 100%, I still think it’s not a requirement. I keep seeing people saying it’ll be a QoL change, but I personally see it as an intentional design choice. It makes sense, to me, why Bard and Machinist don’t have a preventive knock back move, just as it makes sense why we don’t have a gap closer either. It makes sense why Red Mage and Black Mage can teleport around, and why Summoner cannot. It makes sense why Melee have so many tools to stay on the boss (both role class and their job class), and why tanks only have one/none. Just my .02 though

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As far as I'm aware, RDM does not have an Aetherial Manipulation like BLM does.


It's fine if you don't agree with me; that's your opinion. But mine is I think it's silly every other job can just say "screw you" to an annoying knockback mechanic while BRD/MCH have to beg the PLD to Cover them, or plead with the healer to rescue them. If it was something that only a few jobs could avoid due to the specific design of their job, then that would be fine. But it's every job except for two.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

....What? You do realize Refresh and Tactician were a godsend to the old ways of MP/TP Refresh, right? So many people would not Promote their turret, nor sing Mage's or Army's when needed because of the DPS loss; MCH actually suffered a bit more than BRD in that regard because of how turret damage was weighted. We get "so much" at the cost of personal DPS--at least with regards to BRD because at most percentiles we're only doing more damage than the RDM with instant Raises every GCD.

Also, you can't use Swiftsong (Peloton) in battle so....your argument with that is what, exactly?

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Not to mention Peloton is a bit of downgrade now that it consists of a cross role skill and has to be refreshed every 30 seconds. It's worse now than when it was Swiftsong.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

We get "so much" at the cost of personal DPS--at least with regards to BRD because at most percentiles we're only doing more damage than the RDM with instant Raises every GCD.

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>> At the cost of personal dps
>MCH contributes more dps to a raid than SMN, the highest ranking dps that also has utility
>BRD contributes just as much

Personal numbers mean 0; why sam and blm are memes. These jobs already offer more than any other in the game, they don't need a niche skill to cover one weakness, one time, in one fight.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

These jobs already offer more than any other in the game, they don't need a niche skill to cover one weakness, one time, in one fight.

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The same argument can be used for Arm’s Length and Surecast. All DPS with the exception of SAM and BLM offer raid utility and contribute to a group; why give them a niche skill to cover one weakness, one time, in one fight.

But I see that I’m in the minority here, so rather than waste my time arguing over something so small, I’m going to just concede and step out. Have a lovely day~.

Give BRD/MCH knockback protection and give them back the casting bars

Because O4S is the only fight that knocks brd/mch out of attack range, while EVERY other knock back mechanic knocks a melee away from attack range and those knock backs, a majority of the time, include a potency loss with it. I'd compile a list but I don't want to waste the time doing so. Selective reading at its finest.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

As far as I'm aware, RDM does not have an Aetherial Manipulation like BLM does.


It's fine if you don't agree with me; that's your opinion. But mine is I think it's silly every other job can just say "screw you" to an annoying knockback mechanic while BRD/MCH have to beg the PLD to Cover them, or plead with the healer to rescue them. If it was something that only a few jobs could avoid due to the specific design of their job, then that would be fine. But it's every job except for two.

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I meant their lunge/jump back move :b I don’t remember their names. My point was they have a lot of mobility for a caster, as they’re intended to have.

If only some other job had a skill that could cancel the knockback on the 1 ranged person, or maybe even pull them back into range before they even got knocked out of it....
O well, I'm sure something like that would require actual coordination and skill, if it did exist

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Originally Posted by HaelseMikiro

If only some other job had a skill that could cancel the knockback on the 1 ranged person, or maybe even pull them back into range before they even got knocked out of it....
O well, I'm sure something like that would require actual coordination and skill, if it did exist

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If only this game bred enough trust into a pug's skill that one could have faith their party members would do that, and not just ignore them.

Oh well. I guess only two jobs have to suffer this particular annoying niche because the rest of the community is salty about them.

Maybe if ranged had cast times then I'd see the argument, but we all know what happened when SE took that plunge last expansion...

If ranged attackers get knock-back resist can I get swiftcast for my iaijutsu?

Seriously though after seeing our static's bard have to deal with it so much I'd welcome the change to let them use Arm's Length or something similar.

So the gist of what I got from this thread is as follows.

1 mechanic is actually more annoying to me as a brd/mch than other jobs so I want a skill to negate it. We'll just ignore that all the other jobs are annoyed by mechanics I do not have to care about as a brd/mch.

As someone mentioned earlier this is likely intentional by design, with the amount of mobility brd/mch has as a ranged dps it isn't hard to position in order to minimize or negate the effect of most knockback mechanics.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Maybe if ranged had cast times then I'd see the argument, but we all know what happened when SE took that plunge last expansion...

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I actually enjoyed those cast times on my mch back in heavensward. Please SE. I dont care for bards.

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Originally Posted by Hausti

I actually enjoyed those cast times on my mch back in heavensward. Please SE. I dont care for bards.

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To be fair, the MCH toolkit was built around having cast times unlike BRD where it was just tacked on, causing conflict with its prior (ARR) setup.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Oh well. I guess only two jobs have to suffer this particular annoying niche because the rest of the community is salty about them.

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actually Dark Knight has no knockback prevention either.

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Originally Posted by Tint

actually Dark Knight has no knockback prevention either.

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Prevention, no. Interruption, yes. Plunge can interrupt a knockback if timed right, just like any other gap closer. That said, I'd really be okay with ranged getting a prevention tool. Watching them slide out of my heals every time I do Shinryu while everyone else stays parked nicely beside me gets a little annoying.

Honestly, I'd rather have the means to provide my own piercing debuff than knockback prevention.