Sustain

Sustain: Could we please have it back on SMN/SCH? That is all.

When they did ability pruning they got it all wrong.

Remove Tri-Bind, restore Sustain.

Bonus version:

Remove Tri-Bind, trait for Physick to work on pets (otherwise why is it on your bar), add that new version of Miasma II.

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Originally Posted by demonette

Remove Tri-Bind, trait for Physick to work on pets (otherwise why is it on your bar), add that new version of Miasma II.

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Ew, no. Miasma II was designed to make up for the lack of AoE on SCH vs WHM and AST and in fact has a whopping 200 total Potency, the same as Gravity and Holy... but without the dropoff associated.

Though, what I would suggest is somewhat more simple.

-Rename SCH's Miasma II to Virus. They did it to Delirium (taking the name of a removed skill and giving it to something else) so it wouldn't hurt.

-Give SCH and SMN a new Miasma II, which would simply be a 30s Miasma, given at the same time as Bio II. Mostly to give SCH back some of its old potency, and for SMN to not feel like they lost a lot of DPS before Contagion Mastery II.

-Rename Tri-Bind to Tri-Dazer, and make it between 80-100 potency of AoE.

SMN only trait: Physic changes to Sustain. Problem solved.

Literally just add Sustain back to Arcanist. Physick is useless on SMN so there's no need for it on your hotbar.

Something better would be to give ACN and SMN a trait for Physick to scale with INT.

And for Tri-Bind, increase the potency to 50 and reduce the MP cost significantly.

They just need to make physick use Int. instead of mind that be a easy fix if they don't want to add it back. Tri-Bind is worthless and needs to go away. Doesn't hit targets if you can't bind them and then does no damage.

HOW ABOUT FOR THE TEN THOUSANDTH TIME, THEY JUST GIVE ROUSE A SUSTAIN EFFECT OR A FULL HEAL SO WE CAN MOVE PASSED ASKING FOR A HEAL ON THE GCD AND AN EXTRA BUTTON.

K. Thanks.

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...Rouse_Icon.png Rouse- Increases healing magic potency and damage dealt by pet by 40%.
While roused, pet will be immune to stun, sleep, bind, and heavy.

Additional effect- Pet is healed 16% of its health every 3 seconds. (Comes out to 106% of their health. Rouse gets buffed by 1 second OR full heal effect.)
Duration: 21s

You know what. Im making a thread.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

They just need to make physick use Int. instead of mind that be a easy fix if they don't want to add it back. Tri-Bind is worthless and needs to go away. Doesn't hit targets if you can't bind them and then does no damage.

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With my Int right now i would heal more then a scholar

Also someone in SE HQ is now crying that no one loves his Tri-Bind.

All this "bring sustain back" makes me wonder : what in the world are you doing with your pets ? I play intensively and the last time it died was like , 2 months ago ?! It's not like smn doesn't have bigger issues that need to be adressed in priority, please don't distract devs too much with that.
You need to tank smthg ? Find a tank then (or level one), is it not a mmorpg ?

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Originally Posted by Karshan

All this "bring sustain back" makes me wonder : what in the world are you doing with your pets ? I play intensively and the last time it died was like , 2 months ago ?! It's not like smn doesn't have bigger issues that need to be adressed in priority, please don't distract devs too much with that.
You need to tank smthg ? Find a tank then (or level one), is it not a mmorpg ?

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Agree ! :D

honestly, i dont loose my Egi that often, but it gets low a lot. a real simple solution to the problem is to give a small percentage regen to the Egi while in Combat, even a 1% hp per 5 seconds would offset the really shitty heal we have. right now you heal 6x more with a cure potency 200 spell (erase) then with a 400 potency physick which is insulting, not to mention i was outhealed by a level 56 RDM casting 1 veracure in level 50 white gear and i am ilevel 314 on my SMN

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Originally Posted by MoldyOne

honestly, i dont loose my Egi that often, but it gets low a lot. a real simple solution to the problem is to give a small percentage regen to the Egi while in Combat, even a 1% hp per 5 seconds would offset the really shitty heal we have. right now you heal 6x more with a cure potency 200 spell (erase) then with a 400 potency physick which is insulting, not to mention i was outhealed by a level 56 RDM casting 1 veracure in level 50 white gear and i am ilevel 314 on my SMN

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Cause SMN is not built to support like the RDM he is built for Damage with a little kit of support like devotion or if you use Garuda the 15 % Magic Damage resistance reduction.

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Originally Posted by Officer_Cat

Cause SMN is not built to support like the RDM he is built for Damage with a little kit of support like devotion or if you use Garuda the 15 % Magic Damage resistance reduction.

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actually, both RDM and SMN are Support classes, they are designed to play dps, and off heals, which means they should be comparable to EACH OTHER. when you have a class that is a face roll (sorry, but RDM can be very face roll for decent DPS) that outclasses another easily in terms of ease, you have a problem. do we need Sustain back, no, not at all. do we need some balance fixes, very much so. one of the biggest changes would be a decent heal. at Ilevel 314 on SMN my physick does 634 with a 400 potency heal, my RDM Veracure does 6411 With a 350 potency heal. on RDM Erase does 3676 with a 200 potency Erase and SMN does about the same. i think many of these bring Sustain back threads would vanish if SMN had a heal that didnt feel like its a bandaid on a Gushing wound

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Originally Posted by Officer_Cat

Cause SMN is not built to support like the RDM he is built for Damage with a little kit of support like devotion or if you use Garuda the 15 % Magic Damage resistance reduction.

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SMN’s support abilities come from ACN, which branches off into SMN and SCH. Even before SB, SMN was still considered a support DPS for a couple reasons, the main one being that they have an in-combat Raise. Really, and truly, all DPS in this game (save for SAM) have support-type aspects to them, some just more so than others. SMN actually has more support built into it than RDM: not only does Garuda buff magical damage dealers, but Ifrit buffs physical damage dealers. Compare to RDM, whose Embolden buffs physical DPS, but does not buff any other magical DPS except the RDM that executes it. RDM and SMN both have in-combat raises, both can provide mana to healers via Mana Shift, both provide party buffs—RDM actually less so than SMN because they cannot buff other magical DPS where as SMN can buff both magical and physical DPS. They’re both support-type DPS jobs. The only thing RDM can do better is they have more potent heals when you compare Vercure to Phsyick, and the job is less punishing when you die (from what I gather, deaths on SMN are the absolute worst and one of the most punishing among the DPS).

Damage-wise, I think SMNs and RDMs are pretty close to one another. I would have to look at logs to see, but SMNs may be pulling a bit ahead, even though there is a far smaller pool of SMN logs compared to RDM logs.

I can understand the desire for both SMNs and SCHs to want Sustain back. I don’t play SMN, but I do play SCH, and I wish I still had Sustain, so I can give my fairy a regen and she spend less time trying to heal herself through damage, and spend more time focusing on the tank/MT.

If i compare SMN and RDM the SMN have WAY less support then the RDM, if i compare RDM and SMN on FFlogs on Exdeath then the SMN pulls 200 more DPS.

I-i mean 5% more damage for 15 second vs 10% more damage for physical damage that reduces itself for 20% every 4 seconds but is also buffing his own magic damage.

Insta Verraise you just need dualcast again vs 7.5 seconds skill, if you have luck your swiftcast is up.

Insta heals possible for 9k ~ (i guess) vs a 621 Physik... that has a cast time

Sorry i dont see any reason to say that the Summoner is on the same support level as the Redmage or is able to support in healing xD

Also i think its the same with SCH control your pet :)

The way you're comparing Embolden and Radiant Shield is incorrect. Embolden is a 2 min 10% for 4 seconds, then drops by 2% every 4 from there lasting 20s. Radiant Shield is up for 24s every 1 minute. More uptime. Still weaker, but radiant shield has reflects which are directly attributed to the SMN. They both come out at roughly 1% gain per party member if used on CD.

Contagion is the strongest raid buff in 10% for 15s but is magical only. Since magic is a smaller part of most raid groups that's fine. But it's an option.

Verraise is too strong when compared to anything else. But heck, my healers raise by default and only ask me to raise when they can't so whither I can throw 1 or 4 raises in a row is irrelevant because they're all DPS losses I don't want.

Vercure at ilv340 is ~7500. Yes you can dual cast it. But if your caster has to be "healing" replace your actual healers. Not a point to drop SMN for. I do not understand this whole "healing support" that people are arguing over on a DPS job. Anything that takes a GCD and doesn't deal damage on a "damage dealer" job is something I do not want. I mean 2 of 3 tank jobs are already crying about their tank stances being a damage-less GCD and it's a part of their job description, you know, "tank" stance.

Over any percentile above 75 on most fights, SMN is top 4 or 3 DPS except hundredth where MCH beats it in some fights (due to speed run meta comps). RDM regardless of percentile is always last.

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Originally Posted by Officer_Cat

Sorry i dont see any reason to say that the Summoner is on the same support level as the Redmage or is able to support in healing xD

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I wasn't even arguing that SMN needed adjusting in terms of their healing, or needs to contribute to healing when the healers are lacking, nor do I agree with that playstyle for RDM. I will fill in to heal if a heals goes down long enough for them to get back up, but I will not do a lazy healer's job for them.

I was saying that SMN has slightly more support aspects than RDM, and always has. To say that SMN isn't on par with RDM in terms of support is an incorrect statement, and leads me to believe that you do not know your job as well as you claim you do.

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Also i think its the same with SCH control your pet :)

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No amount of pet control can stop them from getting hit by unavoidable damage. Interrupting and manually casting each Embrace would be the only way to force your fairy to prioritize healing a tank or someone else over her, because the AI automatically prioritizes her health over everyone else's. In that instance, you spend so much time micromanaging it's easy to miss out on DPS, which SCH still carries quite a bit of personal DPS.

Giving us back Sustain would give SCHs a nice little buffer to heal their fairy so that she can spend less time healing herself and more time healing the party. I micromanage my fairies and I still want Sustain back.

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Originally Posted by Officer_Cat

Insta heals possible for 9k ~ (i guess) vs a 621 Physik... that has a cast time

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That Quote explains the whole need for a Change to Summoner healing right there. there are examples where a Healer or instance gets screwed due to something going off. a acceptable heal is essential for parties that have to recover from stupidity and a SMN is designed to help with that recovery but has only a basic raise right now that is useful. DPS on SMN is fine as long as you dont die or screw it up to bad.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Vercure at ilv340 is ~7500. Yes you can dual cast it. But if your caster has to be "healing" replace your actual healers. Not a point to drop SMN for. I do not understand this whole "healing support" that people are arguing over on a DPS job. Anything that takes a GCD and doesn't deal damage on a "damage dealer" job is something I do not want.

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Again, you prove my point, yes, a SMN shouldnt be healing and 99% of the time we dont, but when shit hits the fan, a SMN should be there to help recover, as it stands, the chance with a SMN and no RDM means a wipe more then it should

honestly i agree with a lot of with your statement HyoMinPark, a pet class with no real way to support that pet (Bahamut isnt available every time its needed) 95% of the time is lacking, the only place SMN is lacking right now is a heal/pet heal. i really dont think we need Sustain, i was able to abuse the crap out of it at the end of ARR and was able to solo low level instances with just me, my Titan Egi and sustain by asking people to drop after we got in. and the problem i see with physick is simple, it goes off of Healing Magic Potency vs Veracure that goes off Attack Magic Potency, i also see the limitations of having it the way it is, they need a dedicated off heal for SMN that is different from SCH or some kind of Passive in combat small health regen for pets. 1% every 5 seconds i dont see as a huge easily abused thing, it takes care of pets requiring healing constantly but doesnt make them unstoppable like Sustain used to do

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Originally Posted by MoldyOne

actually, both RDM and SMN are Support classes, they are designed to play dps, and off heals, which means they should be comparable to EACH OTHER.

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Not anymore. It used to be like this, but with 4.0 and RDM, they have changed the positioning of SMN, and that's why they consciously make Physick scale off MND only. It is clear from the Letter Live that now, at this time, in this version of the game, SMN is not supposed to be able to heal as good as the RDM.

Forget about Physick. It was nerfed deliberately. So was Sustain.

What SMN really needs in terms of pet survivability is what it should have had ever since the beginning: executing the master's commands immediately, interrupting everything the pet is doing. If I tell my pet to move, it moves immediately. This responsiveness is needed to really get the pet out of many of the shorter AOEs for which even the player needs to move immediately. Since Heel doesn't always work to avoid those AOEs (player gets out of the telegraph but the pet is just one body length behind) making the pet a lot more responsive is a necessity.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

You need to tank smthg ? Find a tank then (or level one), is it not a mmorpg ?

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SMN has a built in tank; Titan. Sustain helped to keep that pet healed. It was useful for solo play. Maybe people who play SMN don't want to "play/level a tank," or drag a tank with them everywhere they go; because they already have one.

Yes, it is an MMORPG, but not every second of every single day. Most of the time you are doing stuff on your own. SMN had great utility to be able to do that, without having to rely on "switching to tank" as you say.

Sustain was also useful on SCH in rare situations where the pixie got hit by something. You could just give your pet a regen and focus on other things. Your pet could do the same, instead of curing itself.

They removed a useful pet healing tool, and did nothing to compensate for it. Neither raising the pets' defensive capabilities, nor increase the potency of Physick on the SMN side. It wouldn't be much of a distraction at all to put it back in. It isn't as if they have to rebuild the code for it from scratch.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

No amount of pet control can stop them from getting hit by unavoidable damage.

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What is unavoidable that hits the pet sooo hard that it needs to get a heal ?!
Just as an example If Queens Waltz is hitting the whole group u need to heal anyone with an aoe heal or whatever something like this, then your pet get heals too.

I really would like to know where your pet dies or where your pet needs your attention to heal him.

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Originally Posted by Officer_Cat

What is unavoidable that hits the pet sooo hard that it needs to get a heal ?!
Just as an example If Queens Waltz is hitting the whole group u need to heal anyone with an aoe heal or whatever something like this, then your pet get heals too.

I really would like to know where your pet dies or where your pet needs your attention to heal him.

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V3S, V4S, Susano EX, any fight with a Chimera. Also, soloing fates with Titan-egi, Palace of the Dead solo, Veteran Clan B-Rank Hunts, ARR S and A ranks, HW A-Ranks.

I really would like to know why you're so against SMN's getting Sustain back or some other sort of pet heal, I'd personally prefer on oGCD.

Counter suggestion to Sustain. How about an Enhanced Physick or Rouse grants the pet Auto Summon on the chance of death, without loss to the Bahamut gauge. Essentially this would mean that on the off chance the pet is getting hurt a lot and ends up dying, it is of no loss to the SMN's. DPS or MP from having to resummon it either the hard way or through Swiftcast.

The buff may help a lot in situations when the SMN dies and loses is built up Bahamut gauge and won't have to go through the hassle of building it up again through DWT. The pet would reappear after the SMN reviving animation finishes.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

V3S, V4S, Susano EX, any fight with a Chimera. Also, soloing fates with Titan-egi, Palace of the Dead solo, Veteran Clan B-Rank Hunts, ARR S and A ranks, HW A-Ranks.

I really would like to know why you're so against SMN's getting Sustain back or some other sort of pet heal, I'd personally prefer on oGCD.

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I did not cleared V3S but i saw some enrages, and if you place your pet on the "ass" your pet stays alife.
I never lost my pet when i told him where to stand, if i not tell him where to stand he is dead after the dragonphase.
I never lost my pet in Susano EX im sorry but how you do this.

Im agains sustain cause i dont see any reason in it.

I can record you any run of susano as long as i tell my pet not to stand in front of susano it is fine, i can make videos of V3S too, soloing fates with titan thats something where I agree thats not perfect, but on the others i need to say again ... HOW

Replace Physick with Sustain. Problem solved. Physick doesn't heal a pet efficiently. Sustain did.

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Originally Posted by Officer_Cat

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Depending on how the MT moves for lightning markers, Ifrit will be hit with them fairly often. In O3S along with dragon phase, ifrit can be hit with books and magic hammers in library as well as reaper charges. Again, dependent on where your tank is positioning the boss. Anything where you want Titan to tank for you (he needs to be buffed in general) so again, PoTD, soloing B, A, and S tank hunts, he will be taking constant damage, and likely die, because no heal. Chimeras Ifrit will pretty much always be hit by Ram's voice unless you want to take the dps loss of constantly moving him all the time forever, he is going to get hit.

If you don't see a reason for it, then don't use it, but a lot of people clearly do.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Depending on how the MT moves for lightning markers, Ifrit will be hit with them fairly often. In O3S along with dragon phase, ifrit can be hit with books and magic hammers in library as well as reaper charges.
If you don't see a reason for it, then don't use it, but a lot of people clearly do.

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Thats things where you can move your pet
Adjusting, and you are fine.

Sustain makes Summoner life way to easy in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Officer_Cat

Thats things where you can move your pet
Adjusting, and you are fine.

Sustain makes Summoner life way to easy in my eyes.

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Moving ifrit like that is a dps loss. Full stop. That's a ruin 2, instead of a ruin 1/3/4, and then there's potentially having to move him off the boss entirely, which is another dps loss because he only attacks from melee range. That's even if you can actually manage to move him in the span of the GCD so you're not clipping.

There's a difference between artificial difficulty and actual complexity. Summoner is clunky enough without constantly repositioning your pet. Again, if you feel sustain makes things "too easy" then don't use it.

Which Thundermarker ?
I was in Susano a few seconds ago and my pet didnt get any damage from then.

Also if you are not standing 50 yalms away from your target your pet is not really stopping attacking, also what is better 2400 mana to get your pet back + swiftcast or moving your pet for 1 second without any big dps loss.

Also there is no reason to pull him away from the boss, stand near the boss and you are fine.

( Tested it right now if you are standing in front of the boss and then go somewhere else, tell your pet to come to you and then again to attack the target and the pet is not stopping attacking.)

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Originally Posted by Officer_Cat

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The secondary hit after the target is struck. An aoe effect called "Electrocution" hits everything on the targeted half of the arena.

You sound like someone who uses Garuda, because she doesn't stop attacking as she is a ranged pet. I stand at mid range on a good deal of fights outside of stacking to allow easier recognition of who is being marked for mechanics, dealing with said mechanics, prepositioning, not bait things on the melee, not get hit with/ have to worry about melee targetted aoes, and not blind the melee when I summon Bahamut by summoning him right next to them. I am by no means 50 yalms away, but calling Ifrit to me will 1000% make him stop attacking because he is out of range.

But to answer you're question, what's better is having a sustained regen effect with which to heal my pet, seeing how unresponsive they are to commands in the first place

Im using Ifrit, and i say it again if im standing infront of the boss he is not stopping attacking..
And now i stop this bullshit cause we have two complete diffrent views and no one of us will ever say something else then Sustain is bad or Sustain is good.

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Originally Posted by Officer_Cat

Im using Ifrit, and i say it again if im standing infront of the boss he is not stopping attacking..
And now i stop this bullshit cause we have two complete diffrent views and no one of us will ever say something else then Sustain is bad or Sustain is good.

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You're the one arguing that sustain is unnecessary despite the fact I've given you several examples where it's necessary, half of which you either agreed with or refused to acknowledge entirely. But okay dude. You choose to stand "in front of the boss" (??? This is a bad idea unless you meant "on the boss" at which point it's just an odd decision). Many other Ranged DPS choose not to as well as choose not to make things more unnecessarily clunky by constantly adjusting their pet. Their asking for Sustain isn't made invalid just cause you don't want to use it.

Im sorry i mean on the boss or near the boss.

I never said that sustain is the worst idea, but there right now there is no sustain and my pet is still able to survive without dps lose.

I just dont understand why so many guys want sustain.. i mean there are way worser things... titan is not able to get aggro sometimes, if you summon Bahamut, Titan is losing all the aggro.
The pet control is bullshit sometimes, is not reacting everytime, if you did one mistake or the healer is not healing you, you are losing all your Aetherflow stacks your pet and your dps is going down around 1k~.

Sustain will not change any of this problems, it is just making things better for guys that dont wanna control there pet, but thats it.

If the pet would be more responsive then it would be easier to control the pet, thats it.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Moving ifrit like that is a dps loss. Full stop. That's a ruin 2, instead of a ruin 1/3/4, and then there's potentially having to move him off the boss entirely, which is another dps loss because he only attacks from melee range. That's even if you can actually manage to move him in the span of the GCD so you're not clipping.

There's a difference between artificial difficulty and actual complexity. Summoner is clunky enough without constantly repositioning your pet. Again, if you feel sustain makes things "too easy" then don't use it.

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not to mention 95% of the time, your pet DOESNT move until AFTER it gets hit

I'm still of the opinion that pets should function similar to bards songs... They come out for a while, do some important deeps, then summon a different one. Less time spamming ruins. Moar time actually summoning pets that do a huge chunk of damage within short spans instead of long periods.

Summoner was one of my mains in FFXI though so I'm just looking for nostalgia just wishing it was getting better treatment enough to make me want to play it. Here's to hoping in 5.0 it becomes its own standalone class or is the only class relative to arcanist and scholar becomes standalone.

Have ifrit stop attacking for 3 seconds or use sustain on the GCD, which will only heal 24% of his hp every 10 seconds... hrmmm. ._. Better off using garuda if you feel you have an incompetent party that can't do lightning markers. Start with ifrit and swift garuda as ifrit dies.

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Originally Posted by Officer_Cat

Im sorry i mean on the boss or near the boss.

I never said that sustain is the worst idea, but there right now there is no sustain and my pet is still able to survive without dps lose.

I just dont understand why so many guys want sustain.. i mean there are way worser things... titan is not able to get aggro sometimes, if you summon Bahamut, Titan is losing all the aggro.
The pet control is bullshit sometimes, is not reacting everytime, if you did one mistake or the healer is not healing you, you are losing all your Aetherflow stacks your pet and your dps is going down around 1k~.

Sustain will not change any of this problems, it is just making things better for guys that dont wanna control there pet, but thats it.

If the pet would be more responsive then it would be easier to control the pet, thats it.

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And none of those reasons are why I ask for Sustain to be put back in.

Why you ask for Sustain because you are to lazy to tell your pet onetime where it should stand ?

Sorry but many other Summoners are able to tell there pet where to stand.. why not you ?
The only reason i know why is cause someone is lazy, it is a fact that if you tell your pet where to stand like behind the boss or whereever that it is not dying.

And the dps lose is maybe 1 autoattack of the pet...
If there bring sustain back be happy if not you probably need to get your ass up and tell your pet where to stand.