Kick Abuse

I know its beating a dead horse but I wish we could get a proper answer from the developers not a gm.

Should a party be allowed to kick you for play style.

To me if you kick a player for not conforming to your ideal play style be it healer dps tank pulls or dps single target or aoe, unless its making it impossible for you to clear the dungeon, its abuse of the system and the person kicking should be punished.

I know we have the gm response saying that you can kick a player for not meeting your play style but i think that is wrong.

I got kicked yesterday from expert for daring to single target on my red mage. (I find its faster and i can control my mana levels better) Even when i lb'ed the 30 mobs the tank pulled I got kicked. Stating after (somehow he didn't pick up the the other dps with the same surname and similar glams were together) how it was a shame I was afk. (if he was premade with the scholar it meant they got to gang up on what should of been an even split )

Both me and my friend have reported him for abusing the vote kick. But I get the feeling I'm going to get back. 'but its ok cause different play styles.' (i have yet to log in today)

How have we as a community allowed this to be a norm almost?

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Originally Posted by Kogekigami

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sadly being kicked for "a differnce of playstyles" is not a punishable offence. I feel it should be but its not.

I have recently myself have been kick from a dungoen by a tank and healer exteme speedrunners who kicked me from a dungoen for dying 2 times (yes just 2 times) with in a 2 min time frame.

from what I have been reading here this is the norm and acceptable

I wish play style would be an option, there are some people that just troll. There is a learning curve however anything past lv 50 should be kicked if they don't know rotations...while I understand people pay fees and are free to play their way, if it's not the main priority ( example Healer number one priority is to heal not DPS ) and constantly makes the party fail. They should be kicked.

trolling comes under harassment.

I judge it on the dungeon run. If its to the point where you can't get anywhere then yes there is a proplem be it connectiong troll or someone who needs help. but if the run is running smoothly then fine. the only hiccups we had last night was due to the tank pulling to much for the healer and then purposely killing me cause i dare respond with 'dude calm down its a game' cause he threw a strop at me single targetting mobs.

I think you just got kicked by trolls and nothing more.
Some time ago i was kicked by a random whm and his conjurer(!) friend in Weeping, where both of them used tank accessories and raged on our bard for not using Mage's Ballad since their mana was so easily drained. Well nvm... :confused:

On the other hand, in the case of rdm, you can both kill targets one by one and you can aoe them down quite easily and fast. Of course this is not a reason to be kicked but if you have the patience to explain to the tank or whoever that this is how you play, then do so. If you end up kicked, just re-queue and hope not to meet same people, simple as that ;)

I id explain that i felt it was faster as i crit much higher on single target. Also mana controls. Idk i find it do more dmg (to the point i was ripping it from him a few time or close to it) single target. I wonder if it was because of tht he demanding aoe. but if he was struggling he could of asked me to watch my aggro more carefully.

Though they screwed themselves in the end my friend who was party leader denied the replacement dps and spent the dungeon doing only aoe dmg ...on a samurai. then asked why it was so slow he be all 'gee i wonder.'

They could've kicked your friend too if they wanted. Strange story if you ask me.

On topic: being free to play how you want goes both ways. If 1 of 4 players slows the rest down then they shouldn't be forced to play with him. They pay their subs too.
Personally I don't kick people (not yet at least), but I kind of can understand it. I mean, if I saw RDM doing single target rotation instead of AoE, while all it takes to know what is more efficient is just one glance at tooltips (you know, multiply potency by number of targets), I also wouldn't be happy. DPS should always do their best damage, just like healer has to always keep others alive. If tank died every pull because healer only spammed Medica instead of single target heals, would that be ok?

There does seem to be an increase in people being kick purely based on play style not agreeing with the rest of the group which if you ask me is rude and should be punishable by the GM's (i'm excluding actual trolling from this were people can't reasionable complete the dungoen) I believe one of the community reps has posted in the fourm that kicking based on play style is an acceptable reason to kick someone personally I think this reason is being abused

If you weren't AOEing a large trash pack, then you were being inefficient. RDM AOE is more potent than single target melee + Verholy/Verflare nuke when dealing with large packs. Enchanted Moulinet is a DPS gain at 3+ mobs, as is Scatter spam (however boring it may be). If you were failing to AOE to the other two's standards, then yes, they can kick you for that. GMs have stated multiple times that "differences of playstyle" is a valid reason for a vote dismiss. I personally think they should add that as a vote dismiss option, since it doesn't particularly fit under any of the four currently available (AFK, Offline, Harassment, Cheating), but it is a valid reason for a kick.

Unless there is a chat log history of a conspiracy between two or more party members to kick another member, the GMs have no way of determining if the kick was abusive, and you cannot make a solid case to prove vote kick abuse unless something is explicitly said in-game and there's a chat log record if it.

As for your friend's behavior, they could both very well report him for griefing since he denied to replace you by opening up the queue to another DPS that was waiting for a queue pop. And they would actually have a bit of a case in this instance as well.

I know I've seen that screenshot posted around for years now. SE should make an official statement somewhere since we have since seen GM screenshots that counteract the call from that GM.

Regardless, if you were active and they labeled the reason as "AFK" which is what it sounds like they did, then you were right to report them. I hope you included that statement. Sounds like they may have bitten themselves in the ass not realizing that the other person was with you and could provide that evidence.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I know I've seen that screenshot posted around for years now. SE should make an official statement somewhere since we have since seen GM screenshots that counteract the call from that GM.

Regardless, if you were active and they labeled the reason as "AFK" which is what it sounds like they did, then you were right to report them. I hope you included that statement. Sounds like they may have bitten themselves in the ass not realizing that the other person was with you and could provide that evidence.

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is there anyway of finding out the reason that was given when you get kicked? the only message I got was "You have been removed from duty and party"

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

is there anyway of finding out the reason that was given when you get kicked? the only message I got was "You have been removed from duty and party"

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No; only the GMs can see that kind of information.

Single targeting during large pulls can result in the tank dying through no fault of their own. They will inevitably run out of cooldowns, which makes it significantly harder on the healer to keep them alive. Therefore, you were placing a greater burden on both players or forcing them to conform to your preferred playstyle of baby pulls. Frankly speaking, I won't pull less than six mobs unless I'm woefully undergeared. It's exceedingly boring from both a tank and healer perspective. With that in mind, I would first ask you to aoe targets and explain the massive damage boost. If you refused, I'd probably kick you too. Why? You're making the dungeon slower and forcing me to pull less because you can't be bothered to spam your aoes. By your own admission, you find it "faster and I can control my mana". Basically, you prefer it. I prefer speed and efficiency. A vote kick determines what the party fancies. And 9/10, they will kick DPS who aren't aoeing in higher level dungeons.

well they gloated how 'shame i was afk' after they kicked me and my friend reported too. As for aoe over single. I have high direct hit and crit gear and it controls my mana. I suspect its because he struggled with aggro at the same time he didn't use cool downs and the healer didn't dps so in same theory i could kick them both?

I don't want to see kicking people for different play styles allowable not because of this because i feel its how you build a toxic community I mean look at league for example where people tilt if you don't play your champ or role exactly how they want to 100% how they want to. if you want your 100% proficient team play with a pre made 4 man.

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Originally Posted by Kogekigami

well they gloated how 'shame i was afk' after they kicked me and my friend reported too. As for aoe over single. I have high direct hit and crit gear and it controls my mana. I suspect its because he struggled with aggro at the same time he didn't use cool downs and the healer didn't dps so in same theory i could kick them both?

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Direct Hit and Crit have no effect on the rate in which you accrue black and white mana; those values are static based on the skills used. They are not dependent on D.Hit/Crit values, and D.Hit/Crit values still apply to AOE damaging spells as well as single-target spells. It not like your D.Hit/Crit chances will decrease if you choose to Enchanted Moulinet/Scatter spam over single-target melee combo+nuke or single-target Ver spells.

While RDM are particularly good at pulling aggro (I do it often), you can't use that an excuse to not AOE. And was the tank actively not using their cooldowns, or did they run out? Was the healer actively not DPSing, or where they unable to because they had to babysit the tank's health? Personally, I don't tolerate tanks that don't use cooldowns, healers that stand around idly doing nothing, and DPS that do not AOE when appropriate, and I don't hesitate to say something if I notice it becoming a problem. I'm expected to play my part, so I expect the other people I'm with to at least put in a little bit of effort.

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I don't want to see kicking people for different play styles allowable not because of this because i feel its how you build a toxic community I mean look at league for example where people tilt if you don't play your champ or role exactly how they want to 100% how they want to. if you want your 100% proficient team play with a pre made 4 man.

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I don't play WoW so, can't comment on it. However, most of the instances of vote kick abuse are not actually abusive when looked at objectively. They only come off as abusive to the individual that was kicked. Objectively speaking, you were choosing single-target over AOE for large pulls, which is not only gimping yourself in terms of damage per second, but it also puts an unnecessary strain on your tank and healer--tanks don't have infinite amounts of cool downs, and when they run out, the healer has to resort to babysitting them rather than also contributing to group DPS. No one expect 95th percentile numbers in 4-man dungeons, but they also expect people to do more than just roll their face on a keyboard or alt-tab Netflix while spamming a singular spell.

The occurrence of truly abusive vote kicks are few and far between. If they were an issue, the Devs would have probably addressed it.

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Originally Posted by Kogekigami

well they gloated how 'shame i was afk' after they kicked me and my friend reported too. As for aoe over single. I have high direct hit and crit gear and it controls my mana. I suspect its because he struggled with aggro at the same time he didn't use cool downs and the healer didn't dps so in same theory i could kick them both?

I don't want to see kicking people for different play styles allowable not because of this because i feel its how you build a toxic community I mean look at league for example where people tilt if you don't play your champ or role exactly how they want to 100% how they want to. if you want your 100% proficient team play with a pre made 4 man.

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Personally, I hate getting healers that don't DPS but as a healer player myself, I will kick a tank if they aren't using CDs properly and it becomes enough of an issue. That being said, DPS are supposed to deal as much damage as possible. Your direct hit and crit will translate to your aoes. Red Mages can easily pull upwards 6,000+ DPS on big pull whereas single targeting cuts that damage by more than half.

It won't change because the GMs would then have to enforce a standard "playstyle" for everyone. If the healer and I (tank) are okay with mass pulling. Why should you coast by single targeting or force use to slow down because you prefer it? Which playstyle wins here? If you only want to play your way, I can say the same to you: set up a pre-made with friends. Duty Finder is meant only to pair random people together. What they choose to do thereafter is up to them.

The real problem is "difference in playstyle" carries too broad of a scope. If difference in playstyle is accepted as legitimate grounds for a vote kick then it would be fine to kick players for the following
-The job they are using because it doesn't fit in your desired "meta"
-Opening a treasure chest because you didn't want the item inside
-Not participating in their ERP during the duty

The list of absurd reasons is limitless under this one term. I feel it should only count when it crosses the line into harassment.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

is there anyway of finding out the reason that was given when you get kicked? the only message I got was "You have been removed from duty and party"

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No, you can't. But in this instance the OP still had a "man on the inside" who was able to see them make that comment about being afk in party chat. This says to me that they probably lied about the reason and I personally hope a GM nails their ass to the wall for it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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Yes I don't like healers who don't dps (as I mained healer in heavensward) but I don't yell at them. I sigh to myself and get on. Cause in life you can't dictate everyone to bow to your whim. If you don't like the party you receive in random duty they you can leave and bite the penalty.

I mean on the last mob I lbed which is a aoe if i want to be sassy but eh What I think Is needed is a defiant word from the dev on where the line is. Cause it seems the Gms don't seem to be consistent either.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

The real problem is "difference in playstyle" carries too broad of a scope. If difference in playstyle is accepted as legitimate grounds for a vote kick then it would be fine to kick players for the following
-The job they are using because it doesn't fit in your desired "meta"
-Opening a treasure chest because you didn't want the item inside
-Not participating in their ERP during the duty

The list of absurd reasons is limitless under this one term. I feel it should only count when it crosses the line into harassment.

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Pretty much. It would be nice if they can come foreward and say fine this is the written down in stone rule and where it ends. Cause yes in theory with a loose term of 'difference of playstyle' A bard could kick a samurai cause its not a drg so they won't get the piercing resistance.

Single target in an AOE pull is ridiculously inefficient. Things die slowly and that could potentially lead to a wipe when the tank and healer run out of cooldowns. Direct hit and Crit transfer over to aoe damage as well plus mana is no more difficult to manage in AOE than in single target so the explanation you gave was unsatisfactory. If you continued to single target after we've asked you to AOE in large packs and you refuse I'd kick you too. Especially if you whined about the tank losing hate to you on the mob you were single targeting in an aoe pack.

Their only real mistake was selecting afk rather than harassment tbh.
So

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Originally Posted by Kogekigami

Yes I don't like healers who don't dps (as I mained healer in heavensward) but I don't yell at them. I sigh to myself and get on. Cause in life you can't dictate everyone to bow to your whim. If you don't like the party you receive in random duty they you can leave and bite the penalty.

I mean on the last mob I lbed which is a aoe if i want to be sassy but eh What I think Is needed is a defiant word from the dev on where the line is. Cause it seems the Gms don't seem to be consistent either.

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Neither do I. In fact, I generally deal with them the same way you did. Although, I do find it odd you seem to have no qualms DPSing on healers yet won't DPS on Red Mage? That... is rather hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you weren't AOEing a large trash pack, then you were being inefficient. RDM AOE is more potent than single target melee + Verholy/Verflare nuke when dealing with large packs. Enchanted Moulinet is a DPS gain at 3+ mobs, as is Scatter spam (however boring it may be). If you were failing to AOE to the other two's standards, then yes, they can kick you for that. GMs have stated multiple times that "differences of playstyle" is a valid reason for a vote dismiss. I personally think they should add that as a vote dismiss option, since it doesn't particularly fit under any of the four currently available (AFK, Offline, Harassment, Cheating), but it is a valid reason for a kick.

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While it may be allowed now, I really, really hope they don't allow something like that (not DPSing in the exact way someone wants, IE, not holding the group back in any appreciable way) to become a validated reason to kick. In my opinion that just breeds elitism. People really shouldn't go into DF with randoms and expect top tier playing. At the end of the day, it was just shitty of them to kick someone for that reason. It really sucks for DPS because after being kicked for such a stupid reason they're probably looking at a 30+ minute queue to get back in.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Neither do I. In fact, I generally deal with them the same way you did. Although, I do find it odd you seem to have no qualms DPSing on healers yet won't DPS on Red Mage? That... is rather hypocritical.

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Oh, come on. They didn't say they weren't DPSing at all. They weren't AoEing, that's really different. Depending on how many mobs were there we don't know HOW much of a difference it would have made to AoE.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

People really shouldn't go into DF with randoms and expect top tier playing.

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Agreed. However, knowing how to use (especially in RDM's case) a fairly easy AOE rotation is hardly "top tier playing". It's pretty fundamental. I might put up with as long as it wasn't too much of a hindrance, but I can see why someone else would not.

It also sounds like this player caught the other players' attention after they harped on the tank for holding single target aggro while EVERYONE else was doing aoe. So not only were they wrong, they wanted everyone everyone else to change what they were doing because they couldn't or wouldn't use aoe. That's pretty silly and probably more of the real reason why the kick happened.

In a run you can be salty, and you can be bad, but you are much more likely to get kicked if you are both.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

People really shouldn't go into DF with randoms and expect top tier playing.

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I think you're mistaking the fundamentals with "top tier playing."

Fundamentals mean jack in this game anymore with the level jump potions and potd speed leveling... with the ability to skip levels and story you now can have totally clueless party members in all levels of the game... since this addition "playstyle differences" is just a bullshit excuse... especially with dps queues being stupid long at times

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Fundamentals mean jack in this game anymore with the level jump potions and potd speed leveling... with the ability to skip levels and story you now can have totally clueless party members in all levels of the game... since this addition "playstyle differences" is just a bullshit excuse... especially with dps queues being stupid long at times

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Listen to advice and play properly and the likelyhood of you being kicked for "playstyle difference" goes way down. And if you don't like dps queues, queue with a tank or healer friend or don't play dps. You shouldn't be exempt from being kicked just cause your queue is long.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Fundamentals mean jack in this game anymore with the level jump potions and potd speed leveling... with the ability to skip levels and story you now can have totally clueless party members in all levels of the game... since this addition "playstyle differences" is just a bullshit excuse... especially with dps queues being stupid long at times

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I'm not sure you intended to sound this way, but what it sounds like you are saying is basically because people have access to level jump potions and speed leveling through Palace of the Dead that somehow exempts them from needing to know even the building blocks of their class when entering duty finder and that reason is because DPS queues are "stupid long".

Is that really what you wanted to say or am I misunderstanding?

The real problemthat needs addressing is premades of as little as 2 people having 100% control over booting anyone they choose to.

I think they need an ammended ruleset where the neutral party becomes the deciding vote. This becomes a problem when it's a 3 person premade. But in that case, I'd say that that premade should just have to deal with the outlier or leave with no penalty.

The thing is, difference in playstyle is kind of a two-edged sword, not to mention a bureaucratic mess, because there isn't actually a reason like that listed in the kick menu. Unless you can prove they're intentionally trolling, you don't have a case for 'harassment' - and if they're not trolling, you're setting yourself up for a counter-report and a justified one. Offline and AFK are both erroneous reasons as well, which leaves botting, which is actually the easiest to disprove because all it takes is minimal chitchat between party members to prove this is an actual person who's paying attention to what's going on. And in the absence of that, it's still hard to prove, so no case for the kick.

Basically, while the GMs disagree kicking for difference in playstyle is wrong, the game doesn't really enable you to do so, which makes this debate kind of moot - no matter the reason listed on the kick, it wasn't why they kicked you for, which makes the kick in itself a reportable offense.

Scatter is 100 potency. At 3 mobs, it will do more damage than jolt/impact/verstone+fire (3x100 = 300 potency). You can weave in veraero+thunder here since it deals 300 potency too, and gives 5 more mana instead of just spamming scatter. However at 4 mobs, a single scatter does 400 potency. At 6 mobs, you're blasting 600 potency for every single cast. I'm sure you can understand that using single target spells on big pulls is not only terrible use of your spell kit, but a huge drag on the group as well... It is almost as bad as seeing melee dps with full TP on big pulls, something that deserves an equally harsh treatment. Why settle for bad play in a group situation? You're playing with completely unknown strangers, surely you want them to remember you as a valuable and competent player. And not some mouth breather that made them roll their eyes.

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Originally Posted by Casualty

I'm not sure you intended to sound this way, but what it sounds like you are saying is basically because people have access to level jump potions and speed leveling through Palace of the Dead that somehow exempts them from needing to know even the building blocks of their class when entering duty finder and that reason is because DPS queues are "stupid long".

Is that really what you wanted to say or am I misunderstanding?

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What I'm saying is the dev are making it so that people can just max level without a clue as to how to properly play and using the non existing (in game) playstyle difference excuse to kick people is a very bad idea... it's SEs fault for making leveling without understanding easy then allowing people to kick others for not playing the same way...

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I think you're mistaking the fundamentals with "top tier playing."

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I'm not. What I'm saying is that people who resort to kicking immediately people who don't play as well as they would like are often the people who kick those who are doing just fine and not holding the group back, but aren't playing at a high level. It's an absolutely cancerous way of behaving.

Does a person not AoEing on a trash pull make things take a bit longer? Sure. But HOW MUCH longer? How many mobs were there? Regardless of what people think, AoEing on a pack of 3 mobs does not make it take much less time than single targeting them down (and for some classes and comps, it's actually faster to single target at that point than to AoE).

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Originally Posted by Whiterock

You're playing with completely unknown strangers, surely you want them to remember you as a valuable and competent player. And not some mouth breather that made them roll their eyes.

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If you spend that much time thinking about the opinions of people in DF, then chances are you need to step back a little bit. Trust me, other than a few exceptionally standout situations, people aren't going to remember every person that they played with that they didn't think played well. That's like 85% of the people that play this game anyways.

Bad play stands out, and bad players are experts at just turning a blind eye and keep the group going like the mindless automatons they are. It might be your sub, but you're dragging down 3 other people that pay just as much as you do. The slow car hogging the left lane on the highway is just as annoying as the person that plays badly in an already very easy and accessible mmo, that even went to great lengths to further lowering the skill floor in SB.

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Originally Posted by Kogekigami

I know its beating a dead horse but I wish we could get a proper answer from the developers not a gm.

Should a party be allowed to kick you for play style.

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I dont believe in vote kicking but its no reason for a rdm to be single targeting

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Originally Posted by Whiterock

Bad play stands out, and bad players are experts at just turning a blind eye and keep the group going like the mindless automatons they are. It might be your sub, but you're dragging down 3 other people that pay just as much as you do. The slow car hogging the left lane on the highway is just as annoying as the person that plays badly in an already very easy and accessible mmo, that even went to great lengths to further lowering the skill floor in SB.

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You know this is a video game right?

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Originally Posted by Elamys

You know this is a video game right?

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I sure do. Did you know that this is a team oriented game? Those 3 or 7 other people's time are just as valuable as your own, and if your playstyle directly affects their enjoyment of said content then they are in every right to remove you.

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Originally Posted by Whiterock

I sure do. Did you know that this is a team oriented game? Those 3 or 7 other people's time are just as valuable as your own, and if your playstyle directly affects their enjoyment of said content then they are in every right to remove you.

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I just wanted to make sure, because droning on about how people are mindless automatons when they're completing content at a perfectly acceptable rate sure does make it seem like perhaps you need to consider running with a premade.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I just wanted to make sure, because droning on about how people are mindless automatons when they're completing content at a perfectly acceptable rate sure does make it seem like perhaps you need to consider running with a premade.

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Yes, surely we can't expect people to play at even a half decent level. Oh no that'd be bad, we might appear as some sorta tryhards that not only use cooldowns, but know how to play their job at a level that's above average! Single targeting when a tank pulls a large amount of mobs is not a way you're gonna make the run go at a "perfectly acceptable rate" either.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

In my opinion that just breeds elitism.

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The real "elitists" are not the people who expect you to know basic rotations that take less work than single target rotations to speed it up a bit, they are the people who want to make excuses for poor play and even poorer sportsmanship due to some "my sub" nonsense.

In the case of rdm aoe it takes less work than a single target rotation and making excuses for this is more elitist than expecting people to know the basic fundamentals.

The real toxicity rarely comes from the high end players who, lets be honest, tend to group together. It comes from the players who don't make any effort and don't care to demanding everyone else just deal with it because "its just a game" or the previously mentioned "my sub" yada yada.

I have played this game since beta v1 and have only been booted due to DC, likely because I always say hello/goodbye, try to help with tips when necessary and put at least a modicum of effort into even the most boring and faceroll content because I understand that being an mmo this game is more than just me me me me me me me. I also take constructive advice seriously and use it to improve my gameplay, not cry about being bullied for being asked to do the basics of my job.

Seriously, if you took the time you spend complaining on the forums or reddit and apply it to learning the game or trying at A B or C content, you wouldn't have these issues.