Echo seem be still need

all last boss fight i think we still need alittle echo power. he can be tricket to beat with both machinac and shear power of the boss. no nerf bat him though

Nidhogg even in death is still frustating

Okay... what are you getting at this time? Echo for normal dungeon bosses?

We dont need Echo for anything - all fights can and have been done without echo. Just because randoms are to lazy and stupid to handle easy content doesnt mean we need echo (or anything else, really) to make it even more braindead.

Echo doesn't win you fights, a competent group does.

I would have to agree. Echo just gives you a boost in your arsenal. It's still very possible to loss a fight, even with 20% 25% Echo.

Shouldn't jumping in with today's new gadgets work at this point?

As for echo... yes a good party is still needed to some degree, but echo is bloody insane. Watching newbies ignore mechanics because for the most part they survive is hilarious.

POTENTIAL 4.0 SPOILERS - STOP READING








Someone just reached the 4.0 final fight. If you can't do this by 70 then you don't deserve endgame. It's all basic boss skills we've seen 100 times.

I got to 3 phase of final fight, I not behavior like elitist

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

I got to 3 phase of final fight, I not behavior like elitist

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I havent done the fight yet, but I'm seeing plenty of my friends doing endgame/having finished the story - that tells me its possible to win that fight, most of them arent even close to being hardcore-raiders. If you cant beat it, its on you to get better not on the game to get easier.

Seriously, I feel solo-instances should ALL be a LOT harder to make sure people are actually somewhat capable of playing the game before they join groups that are potentially only carrying them...

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Originally Posted by Pence

Someone just reached the 4.0 final fight. If you can't do this by 70 then you don't deserve endgame. It's all basic boss skills we've seen 100 times.

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Completely agree. It is certainly more difficult than the usual MSQ face-rolling content we get, which is why it may at first feel a little intimidating, but it is by no means an extreme trial - you aren't punished with death by making one mistake, you can complete it with half of your team dead and there is no such thing as an enrage (or am I mistaken?).

Game(Stormblood) isnt even out for a week!! >_>

Give it some days/Weeks more till 1st wave of lv70ers are full of endgame gears and smash it like a fly like HW Final boss.

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Originally Posted by Emerald_Swords

Echo doesn't win you fights, a competent group does.

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Defense wins Championships!

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

Completely agree. It is certainly more difficult than the usual MSQ face-rolling content we get, which is why it may at first feel a little intimidating, but it is by no means an extreme trial - you aren't punished with death by making one mistake, you can complete it with half of your team dead and there is no such thing as an enrage (or am I mistaken?).

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I honestly hope we get a extreme or savage version of the final boss fight lol. Like Thordan but x10 worse XD

When I got to the level 54 samurai story instnace I died a couple times doing it...
Was -just- dying before the boss...


Then it popped up next time with ECHO POWER!

I was like...
No, I don't want your pity buff!


I right clicked it off, saw another buff I didn't know as well, right clicked that off.
Then got absolutely murdered by the first set of trash.

Oops, I was supposed to have that other buff...
Right! Just remove the echo buff this time.


I then managed to clear it with better use of my role abilities.
And no Echo.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Okay... what are you getting at this time? Echo for normal dungeon bosses?

We dont need Echo for anything - all fights can and have been done without echo. Just because randoms are to lazy and stupid to handle easy content doesnt mean we need echo (or anything else, really) to make it even more braindead.

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Ok, I think you need to step back and check the eilitism. The final boss of this MSQ is tough. No, to seasoned raiders (which with your attitude I am going to assume you have to be) it isn't a big deal, but to the new player who bought jump potion or the NUMEROUS players who only do normal level raids, he is a beast with numeroues instant wipe (barring GREAT healer recovery) mechanics.

Step back and assess it from the vantage point of the 50%, not the 95%.

He likely is a candidate for a nerf, most likely to outgoing damage. I will say though, I prefer a general change to an echo buff for the MSQ.

(Before you ask, yes I raid, yes I beat him without too much effort)

The boss is fine. People are just too used to fights like thordan where all it is is a glorified fanservice encounter with no real danger or difficulty. We need more fights like this. Stupidly easy content just for the sake of the fact that it's tied to story is not satisfying or rewarding at all. SBs last boss on the other hand was perfect. More encounters like this please.

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Originally Posted by Selova

The boss is fine. People are just too used to fights like thordan where all it is is a glorified fanservice encounter with no real danger or difficulty. We need more fights like this. Stupidly easy content just for the sake of the fact that it's tied to story is not satisfying or rewarding at all. SBs last boss on the other hand was perfect. More encounters like this please.

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The issue is, you never want a boss to impede MSQ. EVER. By definition MSQ is casual content.

EX exists for a reason. THAT is where challenge for the serious player should be.

I liked the fight, but I equally feel the pain of friends I know with various conditions, ranging from old age (My old FC leader was 68) to disability who I know damn well will only beat him by getting carried through a face tank of the floor.

That shouldn't happen in MSQ.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

I right clicked it off, saw another buff I didn't know as well, right clicked that off.
Then got absolutely murdered by the first set of trash.

Oops, I was supposed to have that other buff...
Right! Just remove the echo buff this time.

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Ah, you're talking about "Brillant Conviction" buff. Yeah, I noticed it at first and wonder what it was. It feels like SE up the difficulty (Which I really appreciate) in these instances. It gives you a rapid regen effect and I think an increase in attack power.

He's the end boss. The big bad. He needs to have some difficulty. Want easy fights? PLay a single player game on easy difficulty. This game has had too many fight nerfed to the ground already. Leave this one be.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Ok, I think you need to step back and check the eilitism. The final boss of this MSQ is tough. No, to seasoned raiders (which with your attitude I am going to assume you have to be) it isn't a big deal, but to the new player who bought jump potion or the NUMEROUS players who only do normal level raids, he is a beast with numeroues instant wipe (barring GREAT healer recovery) mechanics.

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Yeah, I'm SO sorry that I like a little challenge in my game and NOT cater to someone who couldnt bother to learn how to play but instead paid some money to jump straight to level 60. Call me a selfish elitist if you must, but I dont want to see this game turn into even more braindead button-mashing.

I might have been raiding in the past (my active raidtime was Coil, I only did little od Alex Savage - just for the record), but friends of mine who dont raid managed to get through that fight aswell (and no, not because our old static carried them or anything).

I'd say its you who needs to take a step back and check ether or not saying "Hey, maybe we can leave a little challenge in the mainstory, too!" is really elitism or just someone who'd like to do more in a bossfight than just spam their 1-2-3-combo because nothing really matters.

On the part of "Oh, but people only want to see the story" - do they really? Do they quit the game after finishing the story (or resort to only crafting/gathering)? Or do they continue to run dungeons, trials etc.? Because thats content where it doesnt matter that they're not able to move out of an AoE in time; content where it doesnt matter that a Dps deals less damage than a tank; content where it doesnt matter that they cant (or wont) do mechanics - because its content thats so faceroll easy that even my mother could do it.

While I do enjoy the difficulty, the average player can only manage to cover their keyboard or gamepad in drool trying to dodge everything... So Echo on The Royal Menagerie would very much be welcome so it's doable without getting lucky and getting a good party.

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Originally Posted by Aronys

He's the end boss. The big bad. He needs to have some difficulty. Want easy fights? PLay a single player game on easy difficulty. This game has had too many fight nerfed to the ground already. Leave this one be.

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This. So much this. Whats the point in having an endboss when its basically just another striking dummy. Thats a hugeass dragon there, a powerful primal - why do people just want him to drop dead as soon as they did so much as poke him?

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

ZOOP!.

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but how is this boss difficult

(hidden due to mechanic spoilers)

"oh look water that pushes us we go to it." "oh ice on the floor we dont move" "oh a GIANT AOE lets not stand in it" to be honest it is a really easy fight mechanically, the only real 'hard part' is the meteors, and even then 'oh look a spot where a meteor ISNT landing i'll stand there' its not hard at all. most parties in my roulets i get are 1 wipe then they clear, always at the same point as well.

:/ i really hope this doesn't get nerfed this is a exciting fight that isnt that hard to do when people focus normally.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

-snip-

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Dungeons are a joke and always have been.

The challenge from this game is from Savage and EX Trials. MSQ should NEVER impede anyone. What they do after the story is their business IMHO.

MSQ is essentially FFXIV's "Easy Mode". It should be just that.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Ok, I think you need to step back and check the eilitism. The final boss of this MSQ is tough. No, to seasoned raiders (which with your attitude I am going to assume you have to be) it isn't a big deal, but to the new player who bought jump potion or the NUMEROUS players who only do normal level raids, he is a beast with numeroues instant wipe (barring GREAT healer recovery) mechanics.

Step back and assess it from the vantage point of the 50%, not the 95%.

He likely is a candidate for a nerf, most likely to outgoing damage. I will say though, I prefer a general change to an echo buff for the MSQ.

(Before you ask, yes I raid, yes I beat him without too much effort)

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I don't raid and its still not hard.
Nearly every mechanic is rehashed from another fight in the game.

I went in blind + half of my team hadn't done their lv 70 quest. It took 3 tries.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Dungeons are a joke and always have been.

The challenge from this game is from Savage and EX Trials. MSQ should NEVER impede anyone. What they do after the story is their business IMHO.

MSQ is essentially FFXIV's "Easy Mode". It should be just that.

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There's a case to be made about having an increasing difficulty curve throught a game's story mode...
Teaching the players to get better as they go along by requiring them to ever so slowly beat progressivly tougher challenges...


I wonder what ffxiv would be like if the story was like that...

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

There's a case to be made about having an increasing difficulty curve throught a game's story mode...
Teaching the players to get better as they go along by requiring them to ever so slowly beat progressivly tougher challenges...


I wonder what ffxiv would be like if the story was like that...

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Bad will still be bad. As soon as people find out the minimum they can do, many will do just that. To think otherwise is kind of silly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Dungeons are a joke and always have been.

The challenge from this game is from Savage and EX Trials. MSQ should NEVER impede anyone. What they do after the story is their business IMHO.

MSQ is essentially FFXIV's "Easy Mode". It should be just that.

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But how easy should it be? I'm not asking for bloody savage-difficulty in normal content, I'm just saying: it shouldnt hurt if people actually have to do something in the final boss fight of a game.

Single player RPGs will block if you cant beat a boss - and what do you do then? Ask for a patch to make it easier or revise your stratgey and improve?
(Funny enough: when I played FFX for the first time I got hardcore stuck on Efry, that dragon on the airship - but you know what I did? I went and improved. If people cant do mechanics on a boss after reaching level 70, they might wanna do the same. If you dont want a challenge and only see the story: might aswell watch a lets play!)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

There's a case to be made about having an increasing difficulty curve throught a game's story mode...
Teaching the players to get better as they go along by requiring them to ever so slowly beat progressivly tougher challenges...


I wonder what ffxiv would be like if the story was like that...

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*points to FFXI* XD

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

Bad will still be bad. As soon as people find out the minimum they can do, many will do just that. To think otherwise is kind of silly.

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well then time to raise the bar, even if just by a bit. (ignoring the jump poitons for the moment) this is level 70, by now, players should understand the basics of there jobs and be able to play quite well or at least on a adaquite level. thats why people were asking for a hall of the intermediate, so people could learn harder battles and skills.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Single player RPGs will block if you cant beat a boss - and what do you do then?

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In many, if not most modern single-player RPGs, you can either directly adjust the difficulty while playing, or you can select the desired difficulty at the start of the game. If you don't feel comfortable with challenge, you can pick "Very Easy" and then stuff will be pushovers and you can lean back and enjoy the story. Many also allow for brute-force approaches via overleveling, consumable spam or cheap tactics (I'm looking at you, failure fusion/dungeons).

Further, if push comes to shove, you can always cheat in single-player games without risking your account. Fiddling with game files isn't that hard on a PC.

It's also not uncommon in single-player RPGs for the rewards to be identical regardless of which difficulty you played the game on. Almost unthinkable in MMORPG. Likewise, having builds that intentionally gimp yourself to provide a greater challenge - not socially acceptable in multi-player games, no issue in single-player games.

So yeah... I don't think comparing the two is a good idea. Multiplayer games are a very different beast to single-player games, especially when it comes to accessibility - MMOs don't have a whole lot of options there.

That said: The fight seems to be fairly recoverable, so with a little bit of gearing, I wager the skilled people who know the fight will just be able to carry the deadweight through so those won't need to change. There aren't many mechanics where one person can wipe everyone and my own groups got through in fairly few attempts precisely due to that.

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Originally Posted by Pence

POTENTIAL 4.0 SPOILERS - STOP READING








Someone just reached the 4.0 final fight. If you can't do this by 70 then you don't deserve endgame. It's all basic boss skills we've seen 100 times.

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Maybe not everyone is looking for end game? Also that fight is way overtuned. Consider everything else the game throws at you up until that point. The difficulty spike is a bit much. This is a MSQ not Savage. It doesn't need to be mindless like Thordan, but it's a bridge too far.

It's definitely gonna get nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

This. So much this. Whats the point in having an endboss when its basically just another striking dummy. Thats a hugeass dragon there, a powerful primal - why do people just want him to drop dead as soon as they did so much as poke him?

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As I already said it's a story boss. Story is for casuals. The constant bitching about "waaaaaah everything needs to be savage" is silly. Most of the playerbase is casual.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

Maybe not everyone is looking for end game? Also that fight is way overtuned. Consider everything else the game throws at you up until that point. The difficulty spike is a bit much. This is a MSQ not Savage. It doesn't need to be mindless like Thordan, but it's a bridge too far.

It's definitely gonna get nerfed.

As I already said it's a story boss. Story is for casuals. The constant bitching about "waaaaaah everything needs to be savage" is silly. Most of the playerbase is casual.

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ok then lets compair with 'end bosses' as they came with both the x.0 and x.5/end of the version bosses

2.0 Ultima people complained THIS was hard, and people wanted it harder, this is what sparked Extreme and minstrals ballad,
2.55 Steps of faith a mechanic needed fight, that if people payed attention it is simple, this was nerfed into the ground into SEE BIG PUNCH BIG WIN BIG
3.0 Thoradin, this one was 'tuned to the needs of the players' after SoF and was preety light show but honestly a very dull fight.
3.5 Nidhogg (technichly MSQ final boss) or mr SLOPPY himself illbard. i have had parties of people COMPLAINING about both.

if i encluded extreames or opitional content i would be mentioning the raids mainly A4 normal. which people didnt like. ignoring the savage mode.


and now 4.0

shinryu a fun fight with things you need to pay attention to and all hell hath broken loose.

this is the same old story we hear EVERY time something interesting is added, players dont want to learn and want the victory handed to them :/ in other games you would be smashing your head against a wall until you broke though the wall, but if it gets nerfed to where the fight becomes another punch big win big, its like touching the wall and having the whole wall move out the way for you.

the fun part is if you dont beleave me, wait til 4.1 where we get a new primal and this whole shtick repeats once more

The only reason you think it's overtuned is based off of the difficulties of previous MSQ boss fights. Something being challenging is not the same thing as being overtuned. It's also far and away from even being close to savage difficulty. Also enough with the "MSQ/Story is for casuals" there are all kinds of players with different levels of investment that love the story, they are final fantasy fans after all. The difficulty of the fight is appropriate to the storyline, leave it alone.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

As I already said it's a story boss. Story is for casuals. The constant bitching about "waaaaaah everything needs to be savage" is silly. Most of the playerbase is casual.

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Why do you only know the difference between "savage" and "braindead"? And why do you assume that everyone who isnt raiding doesnt like a little challenge once in a while. LITTLE: No one is saying this has to be savage difficulty. And you know what? It isnt. Why do you assume that anything harder than faceroll-easy is to much for someone who just wants to see the story?
I find this attitude insulting to anyone who actually plays this game casually - because you're basically saying "yeah, you're to stupid to handle anything that goes beyong pressing 3 buttons" so we have to make this very, very easy for you.

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Originally Posted by DracotheDragon

2.55 Steps of faith a mechanic needed fight, that if people payed attention it is simple, this was nerfed into the ground into SEE BIG PUNCH BIG WIN BIG

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Steps of Faith was nerfed because it required perfection. If you missed a single DK, either due to using too early/late or not using snares, you wiped. If you lost a cannon too early it was a wipe. If you didn't keep maximum cannon uptime on Vishap you would wipe. There's a difference between MSQ content being challenging and being overtuned to the point of needing a perfect run to clear.

The worst part was you could tell it was a wipe early on but you couldn't prematurely stop the fight. You were forced to let the encounter play out until the end just to restart for a mistake you made 1-2 minutes in. It sucked the fun out of the encounter.

That's not even mentioning the people who would instantly leave the duty if they got it in their roulette or people who would intentionally grief the fight by wasting DKs or hoarding a cannon and not using it.

give echo boost on ALL ARR/HW trails content -.- not just already EASY Gilgamesh fights.. lol...-.- Steps of Fates, Chrysalis, Ravana, Bismark... I dislike them all >:I Whenever I was stupid and didnt left, like I normaly do, the party had no clue or ignored mechanics -.-

It's the last boss though, let him has his epic moment. Don't really want XIV to have the title of "The easiest last boss fight game in the world" or something like that.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

give echo boost on ALL ARR/HW trails content -.- not just already EASY Gilgamesh fights.. lol...-.- Steps of Fates, Chrysalis, Ravana, Bismark... I dislike them all >:I Whenever I was stupid and didnt left, like I normaly do, the party had no clue or ignored mechanics -.-

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Ngl, having trouble reading your post. However, from what I can gather, you want an echo boost on all ARR and HW trials? My question is, don't we already get those if we wipe?

Also, you just leave if it seems like the party doesn't know what they are doing? That seems kind of entitled and rude in my opinion. Like do you check if they are new to the fight? Do you try to teach them at all? I mean, you are given a bonus for your patience. It doesn't really help the game if people just abandoned new players.

That being said, TRM doesn't need echo boost or a nerf at the moment. At the least, wait until 4.1, when new story content is released; though I would prefer delaying it to 4.55 personally if it becomes necessary. It's the last boss and your character is a literal god slayer, it should have some semblance of a challenge.

Stormblood's 60-70 has been just one hell of a ride with interesting dungeons and bosses, and this final boss fight is the perfect climax for it. I really do hope they keep it like this to maintain the sheer beauty that is the fight's design and sense of epicness.

If there is too much of a difficulty spike then I say up the difficulty of the previous content a bit to reduce the spike, rather than ruin this amazing fight.

Last boss fight should be like a last boss fight, long and hard. It should take at least a few wipes in order to clear. SB's last boss fight is just perfect: epic fight with a lot mechanics!

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Steps of Faith was nerfed because it required perfection.

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Oh please. It did not require perfection. It was a tad difficult, sure, but pugs did make it through. I did it on my third try, and I'm not a pro raider lol. And considering the context of the fight, it bloody well should be difficult. You are fighting a horde, not some random bandits. Getting sick of people constantly asking for kids gloves to be applied to any fun content. The training wheels should have been off a long time ago, we are in our second expansion now. If you don't know how to play the game, go back and learn it. The game literally holds your hand through the entirety of ARR.

my first time in, we won with all people going blind in 5 pulls (30 minutes more or less).

My second time in (roulette), 4 people going in blind, 2 at last phase, and 2 having beaten it, we won on second pull.


If your groups can't clear, either teach them mechanics or learn to quit/vote abandon if you have too many people unwilling to learn. This fight is easily doable at the level of a regular story dungeon