Can future PvP let below max level to take part like PotD to help leveling?

Basically what title says.

Since the expansion is really close I really want to finish off the PvP achievements. But at the same time I want to level everything to 60. I think it would be great if both could be joined together in the future so I can do both at the same time.

So the way I'm thinking is if you queue as a class that's not max level, you get synced upwards like PotD to max level and get an ilvl sync to the PvP (eg, 3.0 PVP is 150 I think). You won't get tomes as a reward, but you will get EXP to level up.

Downsides to this would be that we would have people that aren't familiar with their jobs taking part in PvP. A way to counter this could be to let only level 50+ join in to the PvP (Maybe have ilvl req for entering be like 100 or something) so at least they have the basic framework of their jobs down. Also maybe prevent the ranking based PvP to not allow this as well. So 8v8 Feast would allow this, but 4v4 wouldn't.

I just think it would be awesome to do some (Shatter) matches as my MCH, NIN, DRG, and MNK as they level between 50 > 60.

Ahahaha, no. No.

There's already too much PvE in PvP and many ways to level up, then making PvP non ranked modes like PoTD lol?

Please, no. LoL

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Originally Posted by Mirch

There's already too much PvE in PvP and many ways to level up, then making PvP non ranked modes like PoTD lol?

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That's a problem with the game mode, not who queues. Take 3.05 and Seal Rock as an example. I would say 70%+ of the people that did it weren't PvP players, just people who didn't want to do Expert Roulette to cap. And that game mode is very PvP focused so those PvE players had to get used to PvP.

No.

I could end here, but the forums wont let me, so I'll add a bit:
As a semi-serious PvP-player I'm seeing enough clueless people already that are only there for quick tomes/light or recently the garo-mounts. I dont want to hear a reply like "Oh, I'm just here for the exp, so leave me alone". Its already bad enough when people dont use their PvP-skills and now you want to add them not knowing their actual skills to that? Just... no.

Seriously: You're trying to have it at all, but sometimes in life you gotta choose one or the other. PvP and PvE are two seperate things and they're getting mixed up badly enough already. Please, please keep leveling out of PvP! This is nothing but a terribly selfish request. Make your pick - whats more important to you?

Oh and: just do Fates while you're in queue - those 10-30 minutes of the actual match shouldnt hurt your leveling progression to much. There are plenty of other ways to level fast, PvP should never become one of them.

SWTOR does a similar system. It syncs everyone to the same level so that you can queue for PVP at any time and be able to get a game. FFXIV could benefit from a similar system, PVP matches are super fast to get in SWTOR because of this system.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

SWTOR does a similar system. It syncs everyone to the same level so that you can queue for PVP at any time and be able to get a game. FFXIV could benefit from a similar system, PVP matches are super fast to get in SWTOR because of this system.

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Can you elaborate on the quality of those matches?
I've never played SWTOR - so how legit is it to compare that game with FFXIV when it comes to PvP? How big a part is PvP in that game? How big is the PvP-community?

Personally, I'll take long queuetimes over fast ones, if the fast ones mean that half the people in my alliance are extremly clueless and not even really intrested in the content and just there for quick exp/tomes/light/whatever.
Dont get me wrong - I'm happy about everyone who decides to try PvP! I dont want to keep that some of elitst-circle or anything - what I also dont want though is replies like "I'm just here to level"

Another thing that arises with adjusting the level is the gear - even if we all get synched down to certain ilvls it still makes a huge difference. During the Garo-event I've seen several people in TheFeast with around 6000 HP (because they were wearing NQ ilvl145 gear) - for me as a healer those people are a pain already. They're dead weight most of the time and I certainly dont want to see even more of that, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Can you elaborate on the quality of those matches?

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Can you elaborate on the quality of matches we already get? You will always get games that are horrible, no point thinking it is worse elsewhere just because SWTOR has a system that is smarter then XIV atm. If anything, this will increase PVP match quality because you will not be stuck with the same monkeys every single match.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Seriously: You're trying to have it at all, but sometimes in life you gotta choose one or the other.

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A classic in this regard in PvP would be:
Having people in the game that know how to play OR Having the queue pop at all.

Personally, I don't see a fundamental issue with the idea of early PvP. The main issues are that PvP as such is already extremely obscure and queues might not pop and endgame players might want to be separated from leveling players.

So I'd say we take the level 30 wolves den quest, have it unlock 8vs8 Feast (Leveling) and sync everyone up to level 70 and some random item level up there. Your queue pool is anyone between 30 and 69, so queues might even pop. If it works, you can put a second queue in there for a random Frontline, synced to 70 as well. If it doesn't, well, PvP probably just sucks.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Can you elaborate on the quality of matches we already get? You will always get games that are horrible, no point thinking it is worse elsewhere just because SWTOR has a system that is smarter then XIV atm. If anything, this will increase PVP match quality because you will not be stuck with the same monkeys every single match.

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You didnt answer my question... I dont know how SWTOR-PvP works, so that question was completly serious. So, could you explain that to me, please?
Yes, games are a mixed bag in FFXIV (aswell) - but why add more "bad beans" to the mix by allowing people to leveln in there? This is not meant as an attack towards new people or people who are still leveling - they're not bad by default, thats not what I'm trying to say. My point simply is: They dont have the gear or the experience with all their skills to properly contribute to the game.
I thought one thing that we learned from PotD is that people who level in there dont learn how to play their classes properly?
The way I see this, it will hurt both PvE and PvP content - PvP because it will add people to the pool who arent familiar with their class yet, dont have the gear and are likely to reply with "I'm only here for the exp, lol" when asked to correct their playstyle. And it will hurt PvE because, just like PotD, PvP wont teach you how to properly play your class in a dungeon (PvP and PvE playstyles and tactics can varry greatly)

OP might be self-reflected enough to look things up afterwards and actually put an effort into learning their class - however a lot of people will not and both sides - PvP and PvE - will be left with even more clueless people.

Please, dont - leveling in this game is easy and quick enough. There are plenty of ways to do that - and I realise that some people might be short(er) on time, but they gotta pick whats more important to them.

I've been tossing around the idea in my head for a while that PVP should only award full tomes/light if you actually win. I hate to punish people who are actually trying who get into trap groups, but I am VERY tired of "no I'm not going to swap to healer even though my team doesn't have one because relic lights" or "I'm going to sit here and 'guard' base (read: mostly afk) because I just need tomes or marks for Garo gear".

I really like that as an avid PVPer I can do things like work on my relic while doing the activity I love, but I hate that those same incentives promote a lot of general laziness, poor sportsmanship and bare minimum play. Please, PLEASE do not use PVP as a vehicle to your PVE goals unless you're actually interested in it...that's all I ask.

I'd say that until the devs can find some way to separate that dilemma I can't really support the idea in the OP, even though I personally would see great use out of it.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

You didnt answer my question... I dont know how SWTOR-PvP works, so that question was completly serious.

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When I wrote my answer I only saw what I quoted.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

PvP and PvE are two seperate things and they're getting mixed up badly enough already.

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You literally need to spend your time doing PvE til max level to even get to PvP. With the system, people who enjoy PvP would be able to use PvP to level up. Why should people who are interested in PvP be forced into PvE, something they don't enjoy, just to be able to PvP when there can be a system in place to make the game fun until max level? It sucks so much leveling up sub jobs for PvP when I know I've got to run weeks of dungeons for just 1 of the jobs.

Because the systems aren't mixed up people need to do stuff they don't enjoy to actually get to PvP.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I thought one thing that we learned from PotD is that people who level in there dont learn how to play their classes properly?

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That's because the way you play PotD has almost 0 relevance for the rest of the game. The way you PotD is nothing like how you do level 60 dungeons. The way PotD bosses work are almost nothing like what bosses outside of PotD are like. That's why you can have parties of 4 DPS or 4 tanks and still clear PotD fine.

But if you're leveling up while playing actual PvP, you're actually taking part in real PvP so you get more used to it. If I could enter (Shatter) as my BLM while leveling, I would get used to knowing how to burst with level 60 rotations to get kills. But leveling by using PotD just makes me know how to put in Fire III > 1x-2x Fire I on a mob before it dies.

And yeah you can have people who don't know much of their class participating with the system. That's why I recommend in the post to have level 50+ be a requirement for it. If you managed to hit level 50 with a job, then you will have gotten used to the game and your job somewhat that you know the basics. And after a few matches of PvP you will get used to how they play in PvP as well.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I've never played SWTOR - so how legit is it to compare that game with FFXIV when it comes to PvP? How big a part is PvP in that game? How big is the PvP-community?

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There has always been a pretty good PVP community in SWTOR, the fact that you can queue at any level and PVP at any level means you are only PVPing with people who want to PVP.

Also, longer queue times are only good if you are getting better quality matches. ATM in FFXIV you get long queue times and poor quality matches because there is such a small number of players actually PVPing. They need to make it so that the PVPers can just PVP, PVPers don't enjoy story(at least hardcore PVPers). If people can level in FFXIV with just PVP, that will increase the amount of PVPers in the game, ATM all PVPers would quit cause at 30 there is no one doing the level 30 PVP...

With The Feast/The Fold, they need to all be upped to Level 70 and only be playable by people who have reached the Level cap.

With Frontlines, I think it would be perfectly fine if there was a level scaling system implemented to allow for more people to participate.

Feast/Fold requires people to know what they're doing because each individual has more of an impact on each match. Frontlines can have as many as 24 people per side with three sides. There's plenty of room for lower level toons to hop into that.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

Feast/Fold requires people to know what they're doing because each individual has more of an impact on each match. Frontlines can have as many as 24 people per side with three sides. There's plenty of room for lower level toons to hop into that.

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Do you know how irritating a Frontlines match can be because of 23 monkeys who don't know what they should be doing? The fact that you think you can do that to Frontlines is so facepalm. Stop trying to make Frontlines worse than it is!

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

With The Feast/The Fold, they need to all be upped to Level 70 and only be playable by people who have reached the Level cap.

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I would agree with 4v4 matches, but not with 8v8 matches. We already have 0 role restrictions in 8v8 so we can get teams of 8 DPS. It doesn't really matter if those 8 DPS know what their doing, but they will still have fun. I don't see how people who are unfamiliar with their jobs being in 8v8 will make things that bad since the mode is designed for those kind of people already.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Do you know how irritating a Frontlines match can be because of 23 monkeys who don't know what they should be doing? The fact that you think you can do that to Frontlines is so facepalm. Stop trying to make Frontlines worse than it is!

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So you don't realize how irritating Frontlines already is because of 7 "monkeys" who don't know what they should be doing who are already at level cap? You sweet summer child.

At least 23 "monkeys" have a higher chance of doing well than just 7.

Aside from leveling, I would love to see SE remove the level 30/50/60 barrier from PvP and allow low level players to just PvP. PvP doesnt have to give experience points (to the PvE side), but atleast allow the low levels to enjoy it.

Unless the developers create a totally separate PvP mode for this specifically, which would probably have some shitty queue time, away from the current/new 70 cap PvP that requires gear to be good. This would lead to a lot of under level players becoming achievement points for the level capped players. Think of this scenario, a player with a level 70 character want to level up a level 5 class, should this character be given instant max stat while being naked. I don't think so.
Now, I'm sure someone gonna say "Well, they can create a system like PotD gear leveling.". Nope, we know that PotD gear rating isn't customizable (damn that spelling), for all we know it more likely effects primary stats. We all know that in PvP, secondary stats are king, because we can already cap our primary by using over the level cap gear gear. So sure let's add a system like this and it should come with a little icon indicating those that are in this mode..so I can go to them and BONNK! them in a few hits.

I really liked leveling up through PvP in WoW (was not very effective but I liked it lol).

Although WoW had brackets so it didn't really sync you around, I'm not sure what it does now, but if they can make it so similar level players play with each other I'd like that. I'm concerned the sync up would just cause people not to enjoy PvP as much because they'd get tossed in with people who knew their job skills and it would be a guaranteed face roll lol. ("I'm still trying to read my tooltips" vs "1 2 3, 3 3, 4 5 6, alt 1, 2 1 3 4 2, get rekt").

Of course there are people who seem like they don't know anything about their job in PvP already, but I believe it would increase the amount of people who get in and then have a bad taste because it would be very likely you'd lose in a bad way in a position like that, especially if it's 1 team v 1 team content that's more balanced to skill (1 v 1 v 1 is quite a bit of luck sometimes, less skill based).

So yes I'd love to receive EXP from PvP, in a way that is feasible to level, but I'm not certain the PotD scale up is the best version of that. Part of that imo should be trying not to add too many different queue-able maps and just having one or two big roulette buttons tops (that also means changing achievements though, or have a really annoying achievement system). Might work better if they could cross data center the Duty Finder (don't want to make the queues too long).

Other thing I considered - to avoid destroying the PvP queue with too many brackets or having to do some fancy cross data center stuff, is perhaps they add some ways for people to purchase powerful rested like EXP bonuses. The mechanic basically you buy "250% bonus EXP, to 100K EXP" and you could use that to go out and level (could be a scroll, but I honestly prefer it to be a rested like system without a timer because I find the timer on the buff obnoxious). So you can do your PvP, get some awesome EXP buffs and then go level that other job - you do that first time leveling dungeon roulette with that buff on and its like a level and a half EXP now lol. Of course PotD as always ignores all things, so you can't use it in PotD. However, they could add an exp scroll on a buff timer in the next update if they wanted - since that is already do-able in game. Wolf mark EXP scroll for all jobs, that could be a respectable item.

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Originally Posted by Mirch

Ahahaha, no. No.

There's already too much PvE in PvP and many ways to level up, then making PvP non ranked modes like PoTD lol?

Please, no. LoL

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Without it PvP would probably be more dead than it already is. I don't know why you'd be against something that stops you queueing for a half century (atm 48 mins in an 8v8 queue and counting - and I'm only bothering to farm my last 200 tomes for cap).


I don't know why people are so obsessed with being against PvP providing PvE benefits. It's supposed to be a casual activity (it's clearly the aim they've gone for, hence why people are always crying in Discord that feast queues are dead outside of the peak 4-5 hours of the day); anything that can boost activity in PvP right now should be welcomed. This isn't like WoW where the community that is solely PvP focused is enough to sustain itself to the point where they don't need to provide those benefits because people are happy to do one or the other.

If pvp would give exp, what would it h based on? If it was only for win, some people would think it unfair. If it was like marks and PvP exp now, even losing the battle would give some. How many people would queue just to get in, and practically afk it for free exp? The monkeys mentioned above at least supposedly try to play. But if people have zero interest to actually doing anything worthwhile...

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Originally Posted by BloodRubyXII

I don't know why people are so obsessed with being against PvP providing PvE benefits.

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Well, that is easy to clear up: PvE benefits might lure people into PvP that are not interested in PvP and people do not want people in PvP that have no interest in PvP. That has two reasons:
1) People who have no interest in PvP typically won't try to get better at it, so they will never become gosus you can have serious competitive matches with.
2) People who have no interest in PvP might simply AFK to grab a quick losers award.

The latter is common when the reward is exclusive to PvP, because even people who absolutely loathe PvP feel the need to get in, whereas if it's not exclusive, those people got other options. The prior isn't really an issue as such - if these people are amongst themselves, no harm done. Players who take PvP serious however have quite an issue playing with these people.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

There has always been a pretty good PVP community in SWTOR, the fact that you can queue at any level and PVP at any level means you are only PVPing with people who want to PVP.

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I loved PVP in SWTOR. After my main, I leveled at least 15 different toons on PVP alone. Once I hit max I spent all my time in PCP. I rarely play here except the roulette. The main reason I have no alts on ff14 is because it takes so long to go through the story. I don't mind that one toon can master all classes but I just don't see her as a tank or melee class and it would be nice to have an alt. I think they should impliment something like SWTOR has that you can just level with PVP

Okay, to clarify for those who've asked about SWTOR PvP and still not been answered, I'll try and sum up here:

There were/are three level brackets: 10-29, 29-just under current level cap, and current level cap.

There is a "level sync" of sorts called bolster that brings everyone to some semblance of even footing, regardless of actual level; the only advantage higher actual level players have over the lower is access to better passives/actions.

Most of the maps are objective based but some are also 4v4 arenas.
And PvP not only gives xp and money and pvp currency, there were also weekly and daily pvp quests that gave more of them.

Granted, they still have problems with keeping the game balanced because they don't cause skills to work differently in pvp versus pve (something XIV at least does right) but their PvP system in general seems healthier than ours.

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Originally Posted by Natashio

Now, I'm sure someone gonna say "Well, they can create a system like PotD gear leveling.".

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Just because a system isn't in the game now doesn't mean it can't be added. We didn't have cutscenes in fights until Cruise Chaser in A11. We didn't have PotD level scaling until PotD. Giving people who sync upwards by being below the item level/level a basic set of stats should be perfect as a new system. Kind of like as if they were wearing tome gear synced to whatever the requirement is. Secondary stats might be king in PvP, but there are still many people who don't play the meta that much and just use what ever gear they have on for PvE.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Part of that imo should be trying not to add too many different queue-able maps and just having one or two big roulette buttons tops

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There doesn't really need to be new roulettes. Other roulettes adjust rewards depending on your level, Frontline roulette could do the same.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

perhaps they add some ways for people to purchase powerful rested like EXP bonuses.

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An item like that would be a godsend so I'm all for it but still I would like to actually PvP to level up as well.

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Originally Posted by Sida

If pvp would give exp, what would it h based on? If it was only for win, some people would think it unfair. If it was like marks and PvP exp now, even losing the battle would give some. How many people would queue just to get in, and practically afk it for free exp? The monkeys mentioned above at least supposedly try to play. But if people have zero interest to actually doing anything worthwhile...

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Wins could give extra EXP. How many people just afk right now? How many do you actually vote kick?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Well, that is easy to clear up: PvE benefits might lure people into PvP that are not interested in PvP and people do not want people in PvP that have no interest in PvP. That has two reasons:
1) People who have no interest in PvP typically won't try to get better at it, so they will never become gosus you can have serious competitive matches with.
2) People who have no interest in PvP might simply AFK to grab a quick losers award.

The latter is common when the reward is exclusive to PvP, because even people who absolutely loathe PvP feel the need to get in, whereas if it's not exclusive, those people got other options. The prior isn't really an issue as such - if these people are amongst themselves, no harm done. Players who take PvP serious however have quite an issue playing with these people.

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I get what you're saying; and I did cover this on another thread before.
1) Ranked is there for those who want to be some kind of MLG god. But given how our ranked community behaves and how it treats people trying to break in; they only really have themselves to blame for people not wanting to have the motivation to take it serious.I even gave it a go this season and got to Plat, but the community was just so toxic (especially on the discords for ranked pvpers) I can see why the queues are so dead.
2) That's a problem with SE not punishing people who do so enough, not the actual concept of making a PvP a more rewarding activity for all kinds of players.

You also have to look at the other end of the spectrum, there are people including myself that would have never tried to push themselves at PvP in this game had they not been brought to it under some kind of incentive in the first place (I came for the gear and tomes, but then stayed for the ranked because I wanted more)

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Originally Posted by kuma_aus

There doesn't really need to be new roulettes. Other roulettes adjust rewards depending on your level, Frontline roulette could do the same.

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Oh sorry I was off shooting with "not syncing people, or at least not significantly" idea. In that case you'd have brackets like 0-30, 30-50, 60-70. Or something, which of course has the issue of reducing the number of players in the PvP pool.. So I was talking about roulette.

If you do a pure sync like wherever you are you get put to 70, then yeah you're 100% correct you don't need more roulette.

I like the scale up "PotD" idea IF they can at least give a quick guide to people, this might be helpful in general too because they said they were going to make separate PvP abilities instead of PvE abilities also slapped into PvP and having balance issues. So perhaps the guide is just a good thing in general.

My concern is just that you'd get a level 15 player sync up to 70 and be like "WHAT ARE ALL THESE BUTTONS?!!?!?!" and proceed to spend the next 10 matches dying horribly and having no fun. Like if it was your first MMO and you got tossed into Savage content at max level, and everyone in your team expected you to not suck lol.

To be honest SE could probably make the PvP set of skills smaller than the PvE as well, and if they give you a quick "These are your summoner PvP abilities", and so it might not matter at all (a really solid 8-16 ability kit for example, get rid of anything that doesn't work in a compelling way in PvP). So I do like the "PotD" like idea if it is designed not to be gut punch lol (which it doesn't have to be, I'm not saying the idea is automatically no).

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Originally Posted by kuma_aus

An item like that would be a godsend so I'm all for it but still I would like to actually PvP to level up as well.

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Same, I would like to get levels from PvP. Both could perhaps exist, one to encourage PvP the other to remind PvPers that the outside content exists (but to also come back to get more goodies).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Snippy.

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Your bracket idea would work just fine here, that's how it works in SWTOR and there is no shortage of fairly good PvP queues over there (they'd be even better here, as their queues are on a server by server basis; ours are the entire data center).

Ok I been thinking about this, and I am sure people will hate this because people are naturally resistant to change but here it goes.Yes I agree some amount of exp should be given, but to make it work I would heavily suggest to look what WoW does. They have a variety different areas, from flag capture to holding bases, running a flag while holding bases, running mine carts while fighting over key points to escort them, troll people that stack on the cart by throwing the switch to involve more variable that you have to adjust to.

Once you have that, you got to balance pvp better, i think the easiest way is removing all PvE abilities in PvP and have something different for PvP.

Then you get small amounts of exp at set time intervals based how good you are doing (holding bases, if your team turns in a flag, get exp for that, so on) Then at the end everyone gets some exp then the winning side gets more ofc.

THEN you have to do something with how PvP is entered, in wow you can level off BGs starting at level 10, and done in brackets. SE should consider such a system for their own.

I liked leveling though wow where a lot of it was the battlegrounds. It was not effective, pretty slow, but I did it because it was FUN. SE needs more attraction in that area in general, doing something for fun, not grinding X to get 60 as a means to an end. This can impact Community interaction as well. If people are playing it for fun more then "work" people will be less toxic on average. (If you want to understand what I mean, look at the stuff like skip soar or be kicked, no bonus or kick, etc, making it more like a job "wasting time" so on. So much mindless grinding people get more irritable of finishing things by set times.

As for ruining the quality of PvP so no exp, hate to break it to you but outside premade vs premade, does not exist here.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

At least 23 "monkeys" have a higher chance of doing well than just 7.

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You underestimate the power of the monkeys. Never underestimate the monkey power.

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

Your bracket idea would work just fine here, that's how it works in SWTOR and there is no shortage of fairly good PvP queues over there (they'd be even better here, as their queues are on a server by server basis; ours are the entire data center).

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I'm not sure a bracket system will work that well here. Level 1>50 is already so fast here and in 4.0 it'll be even faster since a lot of people will have the exp earring. And if you do something like 1>50 = able to sync into level 50 frontlines, it'll still be bad since most people don't care much for older frontlines. Most people just care about (Shatter) right now since it has achievements and rewards people want. When new PvP comes out they will most likely have rewards people want as well which means most people will queue for them.

I still think that level 50+ can sync into every frontlines (Or at least every frontlines from now on) is the best option. It prevents the problems of newer people or people unfamiliar with their jobs suddenly getting 30 skills at once.