Tank Stances.

Is the reduced damage you deal still needed on tank stances at this point?

Keep the emnity multiplier and the free defense cd, but '86 the damage nerf. I don't think it changes anything tbh.

You don't need tank stance you can run around in an expert/60 dungeon without it all I do is group up all the adds and Spam Abyssal drain while Scourging everything and having Salted Earth down I never lose threat. I don't know what you mean by the 86 damage nerf though, nothing in this game can outright kill a tank from 100-0 in a fast amount of time.

Even in raids tanks are out of their tank stances most of the time the only reason to go back into it is for a tank buster really.

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Originally Posted by Awful

You don't need tank stance you can run around in an expert/60 dungeon without it all I do is group up all the adds and Spam Abyssal drain while Scourging everything and having Salted Earth down I never lose threat. I don't know what you mean by the 86 damage nerf though, nothing in this game can outright kill a tank from 100-0 in a fast amount of time.

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I promise your healers are swearing when you do this.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I promise your healers are swearing when you do this.

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No they don't, I always have a defensive up and Abyssal Drain crit heals me for 1700 normally I haven't had any complaints at all.

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Originally Posted by Awful

No they don't, I always have a defensive up and Abyssal Drain crit heals me for 1700 normally I haven't had any complaints at all.

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They can't because they're too busy spamming Cure II on you.

Back on topic, though, OP is talking about how, when you have your tank stance on, you do 20% less damage. OP would like to see that number reduced so that your tank stance PPS is the same as your stance-less PPS. I'd personally be okay with a change like that. For most tanks, this might convince them to use their tank stance more often.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

They can't because they're too busy spamming Cure II on you.

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You're joking right? Do you play Drk at all? You realize that with a Shadowskin and spamming Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain not only makes AoE groups die faster, but actually healing me taking stress off the healer? And if the healer is DPSing while i'm doing this then they have to heal less more DPS > ends the trash faster thus requiring less healing while I can sustain myself and have Sole Survivor up healing me for another 7.5k. But yeah they're totally spamming Cure IIs :P.

And that's all I wanted clarified from the OP, I disagree with increasing the damage in the stance then what's the point in leaving the stance if the damage has been buffed? The only changes really needed are changing Oaths for Paladins because it takes a GCD, same with Drk activating Grit, if all the tanks activated tank stance much like Warriors could then it'd be easier.

There's nothing wrong with not using your tank stance because the good tanks know how to juggle CDs to smooth out damage and increase their own DPS.

Removing the damage down from tank stance only works if you also increase the damage output of mobs/bosses. As long as DPS stance gives more DPS than tank stance and there's no gDPS gain from being in tank stance then people will just continue to tank in DPS stance.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

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You are incorrect sir.

Gritless Abyssal Drain hits for about 1.2-1.7K depending on gear/party buffs, 2K+ with a crit. If you're tanking 10 mobs and getting a 1.7K heal per mob every other GCD with a cooldown or two up, a healer that is spamming Cure 2 is bad. You could probably not even pop a cooldown if the healer just throws a regen on you.

Once Blood Price has fallen, you can maintain AoE DPS and hate by using (Blood Weapon) Hard Slash > Syphon Strike > Delirium > (Dark Arts) Abyssal Drain > repeat (similar to low-level GLA/PLD using Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Flash) and supplement this with some of your beefier CDs. Gritless expert dungeons are fast and absolutely doable with minimal healer stress.

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Originally Posted by Awful

And that's all I wanted clarified from the OP, I disagree with increasing the damage in the stance then what's the point in leaving the stance if the damage has been buffed? The only changes really needed are changing Oaths for Paladins because it takes a GCD, same with Drk activating Grit, if all the tanks activated tank stance much like Warriors could then it'd be easier.

There's nothing wrong with not using your tank stance because the good tanks know how to juggle CDs to smooth out damage and increase their own DPS.

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Stance dancing for DRK wouldn't change when you think about it. You're forgetting how Important Blood weapon is.

Only thing that changes for us DRK mains is that we are punished less DPS wise for mp utility.

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Originally Posted by Awful

You're joking right? Do you play Drk at all? You realize that with a Shadowskin and spamming Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain not only makes AoE groups die faster, but actually healing me taking stress off the healer? And if the healer is DPSing while i'm doing this then they have to heal less more DPS > ends the trash faster thus requiring less healing while I can sustain myself and have Sole Survivor up healing me for another 7.5k. But yeah they're totally spamming Cure IIs :P.

And that's all I wanted clarified from the OP, I disagree with increasing the damage in the stance then what's the point in leaving the stance if the damage has been buffed? The only changes really needed are changing Oaths for Paladins because it takes a GCD, same with Drk activating Grit, if all the tanks activated tank stance much like Warriors could then it'd be easier.

There's nothing wrong with not using your tank stance because the good tanks know how to juggle CDs to smooth out damage and increase their own DPS.

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Can we drop this idea that dropping your tank stance makes you a good tank? It's bullshit, and not something people should strive towards when they're still learning the job. Your number one job as a tank is to keep things hitting you. Dropping your tank stance is antithetical to this.

"But DPS!"

You are a TANK. You're not a Dragoon. You're not a Ninja. You're not a Monk. You're not a Samurai. Your job is to focus enemy damage on yourself and survive it. If you want to do better DPS, go play one of those jobs. Tanking well means minimizing the chances of losing threat, and minimizing the chances of dying.

It doesn't make you somehow better if you like to play more dangerously. It makes you a liability. Yes, maximize your damage output (because that's how mitigation in this game works), but don't do so at the cost of making it easier for you to lose hate. Say you have a SMN who, after using Quelling Strikes on their first Dreadwyrm Trance, gets a lucky string of crits while setting up their second. While you're sitting there with your stanceless sea urchins, the mobs (except for your main target) all turn away and nuke the SMN before either you or the healer can react.

Also, yes, I do DRK. It's quite fun when PLD gets boring and my FC healer claims to be too tired to heal me on WAR. But in my experience in sitting next to said healer, DA-AD doesn't heal for anywhere near enough to be sustainable (even on big pulls). Almost invariably, I hear from her how I'm being hit really hard, even when I do exactly what you're doing. I'd challenge you, next time you're in a dungeon, to ask your healer to only use Regen on you while you're doing that and see how long you last.

Of course this also is a symptom of the fact that healers in this game are way too powerful for the amounts of damage that mobs put out. There is almost no consequence for this type of reckless playstyle, because healers can usually just heal through the damage anyway, with almost no downside.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

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How about you drop the idea that tank stance makes you a better tank player. It's exactly what people should strive for when learning to play better, since the ultimate goal is to be able to tank without tank stance.

Excess mitigation and enmity does absolutely nothing to the progression of a fight. A tank, in this game is more than a one dimensional meatwall and it's about damn well time you learned that, especially after how long ago that the meta has already been established.

You are a tank under a different and arguably better definition. Hold aggro, don't go one shot, do maximum DPS.

The fact of the matter is you hold too much value for '20% Mitigation and 50% more aggro" when both are completely unnecessary and neuter your own damage output, thus lowering OVERALL RAID DPS and *gasp* group survivability in the long term! There is no CHANCE to losing threat or dying if you understand the extent of your own toolset.

And I've asked my healer how he felt about healing me in large trash pack pulls without Grit. "It's faster why? Nothing is different." My anecdote against yours. Stop making bulldongo scenarios to support your own narrow minded view.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Is the reduced damage you deal still needed on tank stances at this point?

Keep the emnity multiplier and the free defense cd, but '86 the damage nerf. I don't think it changes anything tbh.

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DRK gets insane buff.
WAR doesn't really change much, still good OT.
PLD is jumps into the grave this change made for him.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Snip.

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Okay so your definition of a tank is to just sit there and do 100-300 damage while hitting 1-2-3? That's not why people play tank, yes they want to handle mobs, yes they want to position them, but that's not wholly the reason at all. This isn't about "new tanks" this is about tanks and tank stance in general this is about common sense, since you decided to retort with a gigantic paragraph I think i'll educate you since you don't have an understanding that more DPS means that your healers heal you less, encounters are faster, less babysitting.

I have done many experts as a tank, i'm in full i270 way overgeared for the content I ran with my Whm friend who only Regen'd me (he's ilvl 262) and I only used Shadowskin + DA/Abyssal and guess what? He Holy'd, Assized and the mobs were dead and I took no damage how could this possibly be!? Am I playing reckless? No, in short i'm not, I had a Brd/Smn DPS combo things melted, Foes gave me more health back since Abyssal is magic in case you didn't know. I was hitting an average of 1200 Abyssal Drains normally, and crits were roughly 2.1k, I even got Baelsars Wall where I wasn't in Grit at all and we did just fine I dipped to 40% but then Abyssal Drained and shot back up to 80% because self healing.

So no dropping tank stance doesn't make you a liability I was actively using CDs, actively DPSing 100% of the time, 100% threat uptime and I got 2 comms out of it, this isn't show boating this is telling you the cold hard facts that this game is built around a DPS meta. You can turtle tank stance all you want and yes it is good for learning how to keep threat, but the end game goal if people want to push and learn themselves they have to drop tank stance or you won't reach that goal.

Look at Gordias for example if you didn't drop tank stance, didn't have STR accessories you weren't clearing it, period, same for A11S since it's the wall most people who are into raiding meet that wall quite inevitably get stuck on. Even if you are a perfect tank, don't get hit by an vulens and use your CDs properly and you're doing 400-600 DPS and you wipe at 1-2% guess whose fault it is? Yours. Tanks are required in end game raiding to DPS and i'm sure you know this but i'm reinforcing it so what's wrong with this in dungeons?

I'm not advocating for people to get out of their comfort zone and drop tank stance altogether no, but you are certainly wrong about a tank dropping their tank stance to push themselves further or show that they can mitigate out of tank stance while keeping threat. So please don't try to educate someone who knows how mitigation works I play how I play you do you, I honestly don't really care, end of the day I have fun with this game while waiting for SB and trying to be the best tank that I strive to be if that's so wrong and I don't push it on others why should you care?

Edit: the SMN was around ilvl 268-269 with a 270 weapon, BRD was 263ish I wanna say the only time the BRD almost pulled threat was the opener due to the burst they can do but after that it died down.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

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Excess mitigation and enmity does absolutely nothing to the progression of a fight. A tank, in this game is more than a one dimensional meatwall and it's about damn well time you learned that, especially after how long ago that the meta has already been established.

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My 2 cents as a filthy casual, I just wanna point out that if you try to do this before your gear supports it you're going to have a bad time. It might be easy to get said gear right now, but we do have a new expansion coming up where suddenly we might not have excess mitigation for a while. We might have new or returning players coming in deciding what class to play and all they hear is "DPS, DPS, DPS!" even for the tank roles. They need to know the basics and actually possess the excess mitigation before making that trade is a wise decision.

Just want to throw my 2 cents in as well.....

I agree that gping full dps stance with your own healer is just fine, but in a DF setting, why put the possible strain on a healer you don't know?

Say they are already skiddish about healing and you pull the whole first floor of balesars wall. It's inevitably going to cause a wipe. There's just too much outgoing damage from all the bleeds on all four of you. Eventhough it's most likely your fault as a tank by going dps and pulling too much, the healer is probably going to think it was them.

I'll just check their gear and ask them you say? They are probably on ps4 and geared their healer through a dps job. I'm just saying. There's a time to drop tank stance, but in DF.......Probably not as much.

On topic though, getting rid of the damage down of tank stance will most likely just boost the hp of all dungeon mobs, as has been said before.

And if you use it for tank busters, because we grossly over gear content about 2 weeks after its released, does it not just turn into a defensive cooldown that most tanks don't know how to use anyway?

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

On topic though, getting rid of the damage down of tank stance will most likely just boost the hp of all dungeon mobs, as has been said before.

And if you use it for tank busters, because we grossly over gear content about 2 weeks after its released, does it not just turn into a defensive cooldown that most tanks don't know how to use anyway?

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Too true....

Personally speaking I think stances do more to inhibit gameplay than enhance it. I'm kinda okay with the way the stances work for PLD because no abilities are locked behind the stance, it's just a flat buff and you pick one or the other. I would prefer they be off the GCD. I dislike the way DRK and WAR have abilities that rely on being in different stances but it really isn't terrible since it's only like 2 abilities for DRK and WAR has analogues in both stances. If damage was the same regardless of stance I'd be okay with that, even if it meant dungeon mobs have more HP, because it would be one less button to push. I find more meaning in changing from a high threat rotation to a high DPS rotation than I do in swapping stances.

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Originally Posted by Wyndam

My 2 cents as a filthy casual, I just wanna point out that if you try to do this before your gear supports it you're going to have a bad time. It might be easy to get said gear right now, but we do have a new expansion coming up where suddenly we might not have excess mitigation for a while. We might have new or returning players coming in deciding what class to play and all they hear is "DPS, DPS, DPS!" even for the tank roles. They need to know the basics and actually possess the excess mitigation before making that trade is a wise decision.

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Tank stance is only ever relevant for Tank Busters and/or aggro management against over-geared teammates.

Even when new content is released, nothing ever threatens you outside of tank busters to warrant the usage of Tank Stance. This is especially true for when new content is released since everyone else should be of equivalent gear level, so you don't need the extra enmity provided.

If you don't know the fight and don't know if there will be extreme spikes of damage, then go ahead and use it for the first few pulls. But it is ultimately training wheels for when you can understand the damage and then you will then properly utilize your cooldowns. Learn to drop it.

Learn to optimize.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

Just want to throw my 2 cents in as well.....

I agree that gping full dps stance with your own healer is just fine, but in a DF setting, why put the possible strain on a healer you don't know?

Say they are already skiddish about healing and you pull the whole first floor of balesars wall. It's inevitably going to cause a wipe. There's just too much outgoing damage from all the bleeds on all four of you. Eventhough it's most likely your fault as a tank by going dps and pulling too much, the healer is probably going to think it was them.

I'll just check their gear and ask them you say? They are probably on ps4 and geared their healer through a dps job. I'm just saying. There's a time to drop tank stance, but in DF.......Probably not as much.

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The name of the game in pugging is adapting.

Being flexible and being able to adapt is the mark of a good player. This goes both ways in defense and offense.

However, making too many concessions will ultimately hurt the said skiddish healer in the long term. You need to show them what they will expect to heal if they ever wish to get better rather than babying them constantly. We've seen what the lack of feedback of DPS has done for the quality of the playerbase. That is my personal philosophy anyways and you can do whatever you please.

But stagnation is what it means if you only play one way and refuse to change to the climate of the meta.

op asked for tank stance, not drk's tank stance or warrior's, try to do that huge mega pull with a full on geared paladin. still in dps stance? the friendly healer will shout shield oath please in ur face.

it's not the tool every job gets that makes you good, neither your individual skill, your teammates make the run good.

A smooth run with 100% random party makes you "good" . friends? only muscle memory and trust. not skillful friend? 3 magic word: bye~kick~relace.

Regarding Paladins, there's an equal amount of Healers who hate Paladins out of stance than there are people who hate Paladins that sit in it 24/7. If I enter DF, I'll always enter the fight with Shield and keep going until I'm confident aggro won't drop + I know I have enough mitigation CD's to cushion the damage increase of swapping to Sword, provided it's worthwhile to go to sword at all. Seeing as it only effects auto-attacks, you'd only really consider it at moments where you know it'll be up and active for X number of combos to justify the damage inflicted>damage taken difference. Starting fights with Sword, even with flash-mashing and scorn at times, will still see slippery emnity if people are going ham (or when mass pulling, seeing as the mess can often push a lot of enemies out of range of your skills - and if you're aiming to keep the masses turned from the group, weaving between them can be a bit problematic (enemy dependent)) (eg. Sohm Al post 2nd boss pull with the 2xGiants, lots of crabs, blobs, and the two salamanders - all of which have lots of AoE to dodge/turn away from the group, and are large enough to push eachother all over the place while they're trying to get to you).

I'm sure people can make it work, but more often than not I find that no amount of positioning and smart use of AoE emnity gen and combo rotations guarantees that emnity won't be dropped, at least not without a little Shield Oath +Aggro in there.

TLDR I'm making an effort to stance-dance, but only when I deem it appropriate. I don't really call it appropriate to sit in Sword Oath all the time, but that's just me vs Paladin. Don't play the other two so I won't comment on those.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

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Jpec, I submit this video for your personal edification and hopefully enjoyment: https://youtu.be/EoClXjDizZk Notice the complete lack of Grit and the fact that only a single heal was directed specifically at me. Also notice that once the pull settled I never dropped below ~65% HP. Notice the healer DPSing, a lot. Notice that only a single CD was used, and that given how low my HP (didn't) drop, it probably wasn't even necessary. Notice that I watch my healer for several moments prior to the pull to ensure that they are prepared. Most importantly, note the complete lack of party coordination (via chat) this required. These were all pugs, we weren't in discord or anything of the such.

Nobody is saying this is something beginners should do right out of the gate. But once you're at level cap it is absolutely within any player's ability (barring a disability) to do these kinds of pulls in EX dungeons and not make the healer suffer, assuming proper cooldown usage and knowledge of one's job's abilities (Notice how I sprint on DRK since I know I'm not going to need a single tick of TP for what is about to happen).

Pulls like this don't make you a bad tank, they make you a good one. I queued into this dungeon and did a single big pull without a word to my party members and was immediately able to gauge their response. Had the response been poor, I would have adjusted, pulled smaller, played more defensively. But the response was not poor. They all AoE'd, none of them pulled threat before the pull was settled, and the healer was not at all shy with cleric stance. Combining that observation with knowledge of what I am capable of, I was able to do 90% of the dungeon out of Grit (mostly only using it for the first 3-5 GCDs of a pull or boss to establish threat lead before dropping it). This kind of party awareness is integral to tanking in general, and had I chosen to stay in tank stance I would have been blatantly ignoring half the information provided by said awareness.

Imagine your SO asks you to do the dishes and take out the garbage. You get home from work and get a text that they had some extra time and that they have already done the dishes. So you take out the garbage, and then you come back and empty your kitchen cabinets/drawers of all dishes and silverware, load the dishwasher, wash them again, and empty it. That's what keeping tank stance 24/7 is like. Superfluous. Unnecessary. Redundant. Excessive. Uncalled-for. Useless. Obsessive compulsive, even.

Lastly, judging from the interactions I've seen you make note of on more than one occasion here on the forums between yourself and this FC healer of yours, I cautiously suspect that they are holding you back and possibly even bad. Good healers and tanks increase each other's collective DPS, not lower it.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

op asked for tank stance, not drk's tank stance or warrior's, try to do that huge mega pull with a full on geared paladin. still in dps stance? the friendly healer will shout shield oath please in ur face.

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This is more a symptom of PLD's lack of AoE damage than their need for tank stance. On PLD dropping tank stance would barely increase party DPS on a large pull because they simply aren't pumping out enough AoE fast enough. The PLD wouldn't take any more damage than the other tanks, but the mobs would be alive and thus dealing damage considerably longer.

You just kind of contradicted yourself. You say not dropping tank stance makes you a bad tank, but dropping tank stance as a pld is useless? Mind you that last pull of BS was impressive, A War could do the same thing, which just shows how far away pld is away from the other two. But this isn't about how awesome drk/war aoe dps and healing can be. It's about dropping the damage down from tank stance.

Simple solution: eliminate the enmity modifiers for weaponskills and abilities out of tank stance. They could even be reduced when in tank stance.

No more stance dancing. Want to hold hate? Use tank stance. Want to dps? Use dps stance.

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

Simple solution: eliminate the enmity modifiers for weaponskills and abilities out of tank stance. They could even be reduced when in tank stance.

No more stance dancing. Want to hold hate? Use tank stance. Want to dps? Use dps stance.

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Now this would be pretty effective. Couldn't just voke and stay in dps stance. Would really help with tank swap aggro issues in raids as well.

However, it would just make nin OP in every raid setting for shade walker.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

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I elaborated, saying that it was more about awareness of what your party can or cannot handle that contributes to being a good/bad tank, and that understanding the need/lack thereof for tank stance in a given situation situation is a part of that. And yes a WAR could absolutely do that pull, and a PLD could too, it would just take longer in the case of the latter. But they still wouldnt necessarily require tank stance, they'd just have to Flash a lot more, burn a lot more cooldowns, and things would have died a lot slower. I did not ever say that not dropping tank stance in and of itself makes you a bad tank.

I don't think the damage down from tank stance should go anywhere. All tank stances can be activated on demand or within a GCD of that demand in the case of DRK/PLD, and provide instantaneous buffs to aggro generation and defensive capabilities (Defiance doesn't provide up-front mitigation, no, but it does provide IB and the Equil-heal, which makes it a wash in my mind). We may not always like them, but they are very powerful abilities. I'm totally fine with there being a tradeoff for that, and it makes it that much more satisfying when you achieve a level of mastery over an encounter that you don't need to use them.

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

Simple solution: eliminate the enmity modifiers for weaponskills and abilities out of tank stance. They could even be reduced when in tank stance.

No more stance dancing. Want to hold hate? Use tank stance. Want to dps? Use dps stance.

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This would destroy pretty much everything I've been celebrating in my past few posts.

But still, it wouldn't stop stance dancing at all. It would actually make it more permanent. Late in a given tier, tanks don't even stance dance. Their WAR pulls with Unchained, gets a shadewalker and builds such a gigantic lead in aggro that they and their co tank can go the rest of the fight without using a single aggro-generating ability.

If aggro modifiers were exclusive to tank stance, you'd hop in, build a solid threat lead, and then hop out. And then maybe hop back in later in the fight to refill your lead. And overgearing the content wouldn't preclude this from happening. You'd just pull in tank stance, hop out, and then hop back in for a few GCDs throughout the fight to maintain it. But you'd still probably be able to spend half the fight at LEAST out of tank stance, considering tank stance almost triples your baseline threat generation and DPS jobs in this game rarely deal triplefold the damage of a tank (most deal between 1.5-2x the average tank damage).

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Also, yes, I do DRK. It's quite fun when PLD gets boring and my FC healer claims to be too tired to heal me on WAR.

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Granted, I disagree with your post for the same reasons everyone else does, but this part caught my eye. This implies WAR is especially hard to heal, but my healers always tell me what a joy it is to heal me, and that's taking into account I do my pulls in deliverance. the amount of life steal from berserk, blood bath, and aoe spam is more than enough, especially with regens. Yes, your challenge has been done by me and my healers without the knowledge it was even a challenge.

Yeah Jpec we'd like to have words with this healer of yours. I for one think they're no good for you and its an abusive relationship.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

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Really? That's funny because I PLAY with a tank who doesn't sit in tank stance on. All the time. Oddly enough, there's never been an issue! In fact, I usually just slap regens on him and then forget he exists while I DPS. It has never been a problem even doing larger pulls. This is with my WHM in sub-par gear.

When DPS is slow my mana drains and the stun resistance to holy builds up. If anything, I find slow DPS more of a liability. Pretty sure if you maximize DPS without hindering the party, yeah...I think that makes you a better player.

If you don't wanna focus on DPS then that's your choice but don't run around pretending like that somehow players who put in the extra effort aren't better players than you, or that they're actually worse. I don't even care that much about lazy tanks so long as they don't hold the group back but your holier-than-thou attitude about not being good enough to manage out of tank stance is what's annoying.

As a tank you can focus on DPS is because your teammates are good, they kill fast and deal with the situation quicker, not because the tank is good.

But a lot of solo players tank may do not have luxury of a good premade party, they have to find a proper way to keep a random party safe and try to cover their mistake, which means more time in tank stance. In a random party the tank is nearly always the default leader. These kind of player to me is a real good tank.

There is a little difference between "dpsing at maximum possible and use CD when necessary" and "being a tank while try to put out maximum dps".

Personal judgement as both tank/healer player, I really can't see my hp drop under 50% and see my tank have less than 50% :p

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

As a tank you can focus on DPS is because your teammates are good, they kill fast and deal with the situation quicker, not because the tank is good.

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It is equally incorrect to credit everyone but the tank as it is to credit the tank alone.

To be honest, I don't drop tank stance during pulls with randoms but both WAR and DK have tools to AoE tanking outside tank stance with 0 problems. However, a tank stance that doesn't allow/limit skills adds nothing to the gameplay.

@Awful

Im gona guess u only run content with your friends cause most df healers can barely heal a tank in tank stance, Ive seen no grit drks, deliverance warriors melt tryin to pull stuff like that with random healers.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

@Awful

Im gona guess u only run content with your friends cause most df healers can barely heal a tank in tank stance, Ive seen no grit drks, deliverance warriors melt tryin to pull stuff like that with random healers.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I submit this video for your personal edification and hopefully enjoyment: https://youtu.be/EoClXjDizZk

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I have no clue who that healer is. Complete stranger. Didn't even speak to them during the entire instance.

Tanks that "melt" under these circumstances are playing poorly. It is not a shortcoming of the job, or the stance/lack thereof, (whether on the part of the tank or the healer), but of the person playing it.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

@Awful

Im gona guess u only run content with your friends cause most df healers can barely heal a tank in tank stance, Ive seen no grit drks, deliverance warriors melt tryin to pull stuff like that with random healers.

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Not all the time I run with my friends it's actually rare that I do due to real life stuff being a thing for everyone and SB hiatus and what not I've had PUGs not care and I haven't had anyone get mad. However with that being said I don't have any healers get mad at me or curse at me because like I said before, I know how to manage my CDs and i'm overgeared for the content as I said before.

What Syzzle said in regards to you is correct tanks will be destroyed under these circumstances if playing poorly and they do as it reflects throughout the dungeon, it's a lack of the player able to bring the best out of their class.

I'll give you an example of a run I had a month ago, the healer was bored so he decided to give me a Balance on an AoE pull, BRD was singing Foes and I hit Abyssal Drain and started crit healing myself for 2.5k the healer laughed super hard and just put a regen on me and used Gravity. This was a PUG healer who did this twice on the big pulls in Sohm Al and I had 0 issues with threat, 0 issues with healing, and the trash and the fights went super fast, no one complained.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

it wouldn't stop stance dancing at all. It would actually make it more permanent.

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Not if enmity degrades much faster than now (which is not at all).
The same way healers are not challenged to heal, tanks are not challenged to hold hate, thus, creating the dps meta.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Not all the time I run with my friends it's actually rare that I do due to real life stuff being a thing .

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I will gladly try this myself , I run these dungeons very often so I guess spamming them u get more variety in players. I frequently run into monks that only single target, dragoons to. I guess I just don't trust other players to why I have only tanked with no tank stance on bosses only

Meanwhile i just stay in grit and darkside all the time. Only time i ever turn off grit is if im the off tank. Makes it easier on me when i got a lot of mobs on me and only me.

Saying healers and tanks shouldn't DPS is usually based off of pre-existing experience and/or expectations from other MMOs.

Coming to THIS game and saying healers and tanks shouldn't DPS is like coming to Sonic from Mario and saying Sonic shouldn't go fast because Mario didn't go fast.

._.

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Originally Posted by Awful

You don't need tank stance you can run around in an expert/60 dungeon without it all (...) I never lose threat.

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than use your gift and open a workshop for all those potd scrubs lately who never heard of tank stances at all... recommending to take tank stance off these days, just doesn't feel right, we have enough unskilled player around yet. don't feed their incompetence by telling them they would do it right... .____.

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Spam Abyssal drain while Scourging everything and having Salted Earth I never lose threat.

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this won't be enough if you ll meet another equal skilled player at all... I lately started to use lp potions... cause it became more or less common that I see 8-9/10 mobs on my enmity bar after every 2nd buffed Deathflare... this is embarrassing... so no pls do not spread this off-tankstance mentality : /

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Originally Posted by Neela

than use your gift and open a workshop for all those potd scrubs lately who never heard of tank stances at all... recommending to take tank stance off these days, just doesn't feel right, we have enough unskilled player around yet. don't feed their incompetence by telling them they would do it right... .____.

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this won't be enough if you ll meet another equal skilled player at all... I lately started to use lp potions... cause it became more or less common that I see 8-9/10 mobs on my enmity bar after every 2nd buffed Deathflare... this is embarrassing... so no pls do not spread this off-tankstance mentality : /

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Here's the problem with your comparison; you want people to get better in PoTD when it's probably one of the worst ways to level, if they haven't figured out tank stance or how to tank properly there's not much you can do about that it's a player base problem. I don't recommend to newbies to take of their tank stance that comes with experience and learning the job inside and out if i'm healing and a tanks in tank stance doing pulls I don't care, if i'm tanking I care because i'm the one doing the pulls, the extra DPS etc. You can also do PoTD 1-100 without a tank or even solo so it wasn't made for tanks per se, not to mention players can manipulate floors/mobs/buffs to make up for lack of tank with DPS shocking I know.

About your spreading this "nonsense" look at Syzzles post she did a gigantic pull without Grit on and did she lose threat? No. I even stated that I had a Smn in ilvl 268-269 who had an ilvl 270 book and fully melded Deathflaring and I didn't lose threat once. So you must be doing something wrong so don't blame it on the lack of emnity I stated i've had 0 issues even with a caster heavy group double SMN/ or SMN/BLM/WHM so I would say that this falls on you.

I will reiterate since you think i'm spouting ALL newbies tanks to take tank stance off, no i'm not this is aimed at 60 content as the good tanks know that you can keep threat out of stance 100% of the time this goes for dungeons, raids, EX primals and Alex Savage, you can tank all of Alex Savage out of tank stance and be fine. It's the majority of tanks haven't learned that they can hold threat without tank stance and honestly if you're not comfortable practice, pull everything with your tank stance on, pop a CD, and then spam your AoE/DPS combo.