NIN: Shukuchi could be better...

Among other abilities that feel unessessary in the rogue and Ninja catagory, i just want to take this time to discuss Shukuchi.

Shukuchi is not a bad ability when executed quickly. it gives the caster enough time to use actions that usually takes a while to cast as well as using specific items.

the only problem is that i feel as if the ability overall mechanics and use feel unnecessary, hence why it is useful only when used "quickly". to add, i understand (or maybe im mistaken) that Shukuchi's limitations are for the benefit of not abusing it to decrease travel time.(hence why the ability has limited range and such a long CD)

i feel as if the ability could be simplified to the point where the user is not required to use actions such as pointing were to go, as well as modify its utility to make it more useful. all this without breaking the game's mechanics.

thoughts?

best suggested concepts:

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I just wish it was a simple Shadowstep as you know it from dozens of other games - Instantly move behind (to the rear of) the selected target. Bonus points if you allow people to queue Trick Attack right after.

The only thing I ever found it useful for is cheesing draw-in mechanics, such as the platform tilt in Sophia. That aside, even when macro'd, it's egh. You can't even use it to get out of AoE indicators quickly, because you're considered at the starting location until you pop up at the end - that's only worth it at max range and even there, running isn't much slower. It's just a rather pointless ability overall >_>

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Heck, you could blend that and the Blade & Soul style, and make it so that you can control where you land relative to the enemy through movement control during a very, very feint remaining delay, with perfect evasion during the transition and the ability to pop oGCDs in-travel with no animation time/lock past exiting Shukuchi (e.g. Shadeshift). Also, increase the range by 5 yalms, and use a modified CD, an average of the flat 1-minute CD and only the portion the maximum range used (half range, 30 seconds --> 45 once averaged).

There, now that's a Shukuchi.

(Technically just plugging from a HW NIN prospective abilities thread from... way back when, which I'd hoped to tie into a thematic resource, for which this would be a Shukuchi variant available on 'shaded' targets...)

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I can never use them fast enough to matter. Wish jobs that got them could just bind them to double tapping a direction.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

Personally I wish both Shukuchi and Aether Manipulation would just automatically send your character the max distance in front of you if you don't have a target selected. If you do have a target selected you'll travel to that exact spot or the furthest you can travel towards the position of your target.

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I have to make a point to use Shukuchi, it looks and feels awesome to use but it is so sub optimal it makes me sad :(

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I have to make a point to use Shukuchi, it looks and feels awesome to use but it is so sub optimal it makes me sad :(

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this is true. there is a lot of potential for the ability. it feels good to use it especially why you feel as if you have outsmarted the enemy. however, if you are not quick enough, shukuchi's overall cast time is not worth it compared to how much you can do without using it (such as actually moving toward the direction you want to go).

You can macro it to make it quicker.

/ac shukuchi <t>

Can use it as a gap closer of sorts doing that. Can mess up positionals though so I tend to use it with dancing edge or dots.

Also makes it a faster gtfo button can just soft target a party member and jump to them.

Useful in thing like dun weeping city /dun Snaith first bosses with the pull in attacks whirls and and death. If a party members on the webs jut hit shukuchi and jump to them. Same for the death draw in in dun Saith. Let's you keep dosing ignore the first draw in entirely and shukuchi out on the second

Do wish the range was longer though would make it much better

As the person above me stated, you can macro it.

/ac Shukuchi <t>
/ac Shukuchi

If you have a target, you will teleported to it. If nothing is targeted, you can free aim it as usual.

Also, if you play with a controller you can macro it to your R3 button. Then you can "click" and aim very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

As the person above me stated, you can macro it.

/ac Shukuchi <t>
/ac Shukuchi

If you have a target, you will teleported to it. If nothing is targeted, you can free aim it as usual.

Also, if you play with a controller you can macro it to your R3 button. Then you can "click" and aim very quickly.

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this is actually very interesting could you also do macros for other abilities like ninjutsu and combos? or are they limited to one command?

I just wish it was a simple Shadowstep as you know it from dozens of other games - Instantly move behind (to the rear of) the selected target. Bonus points if you allow people to queue Trick Attack right after.

The only thing I ever found it useful for is cheesing draw-in mechanics, such as the platform tilt in Sophia. That aside, even when macro'd, it's egh. You can't even use it to get out of AoE indicators quickly, because you're considered at the starting location until you pop up at the end - that's only worth it at max range and even there, running isn't much slower. It's just a rather pointless ability overall >_>

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I just wish it was a simple Shadowstep as you know it from dozens of other games - Instantly move behind (to the rear of) the selected target. Bonus points if you allow people to queue Trick Attack right after.

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100% agree, which is why i think the ability would be better with stun and flanking utility.

for example, while targeting an enemy, using the ability will teleport yourself behind the target, stunning them if you cast it nearby said target. plus, decrease CD but only if the ability is used against a target and not a controlled point: i would also like it if the ability had this as an additional mechanic only available when targeting an enemy, for the controlled teleport still has it's uses as comments above say.

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Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon

this is actually very interesting could you also do macros for other abilities like ninjutsu and combos? or are they limited to one command?

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You "can" macro pretty much anything, however macros don't queue, so you'll nearly always take a DPS loss. Macros for anything involved in your rotation are a bad idea. However, macros for certain utility, such as what I suggested above, don't really have any negative effect and can make things more convenient.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I just wish it was a simple Shadowstep as you know it from dozens of other games - Instantly move behind (to the rear of) the selected target. Bonus points if you allow people to queue Trick Attack right after.

The only thing I ever found it useful for is cheesing draw-in mechanics, such as the platform tilt in Sophia. That aside, even when macro'd, it's egh. You can't even use it to get out of AoE indicators quickly, because you're considered at the starting location until you pop up at the end - that's only worth it at max range and even there, running isn't much slower. It's just a rather pointless ability overall >_>

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Heck, you could blend that and the Blade & Soul style, and make it so that you can control where you land relative to the enemy through movement control during a very, very feint remaining delay, with perfect evasion during the transition and the ability to pop oGCDs in-travel with no animation time/lock past exiting Shukuchi (e.g. Shadeshift). Also, increase the range by 5 yalms, and use a modified CD, an average of the flat 1-minute CD and only the portion the maximum range used (half range, 30 seconds --> 45 once averaged).

There, now that's a Shukuchi.

(Technically just plugging from a HW NIN prospective abilities thread from... way back when, which I'd hoped to tie into a thematic resource, for which this would be a Shukuchi variant available on 'shaded' targets...)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Heck, you could blend that and the Blade & Soul style, and make it so that you can control where you land relative to the enemy through movement control during a very, very feint remaining delay, with perfect evasion during the transition and the ability to pop oGCDs in-travel with no animation time/lock past exiting Shukuchi (e.g. Shadeshift). Also, increase the range by 5 yalms, and use a modified CD, an average of the flat 1-minute CD and only the portion the maximum range used (half range, 30 seconds --> 45 once averaged).

There, now that's a Shukuchi.

(Technically just plugging from a HW NIN prospective abilities thread from... way back when, which I'd hoped to tie into a thematic resource, for which this would be a Shukuchi variant available on 'shaded' targets...)

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lets just agree that any game with dash mechanics are among the best ever made.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

You "can" macro pretty much anything, however macros don't queue, so you'll nearly always take a DPS loss. Macros for anything involved in your rotation are a bad idea. However, macros for certain utility, such as what I suggested above, don't really have any negative effect and can make things more convenient.

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i guess ill experiment with it when i can.

well the animation lock affects all other jobs abilities to move to a spot or party member as well. Really suvks but its no different from aetherial manipulation/elusive jump

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

well the animation lock affects all other jobs abilities to move to a spot or party member as well. Really suvks but its no different from aetherial manipulation/elusive jump

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Atleast you can free aim it. I find Aetherial Manipulation to be more pesky given that you have to target a party member.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Atleast you can free aim it. I find Aetherial Manipulation to be more pesky given that you have to target a party member.

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I prefer the BLM skill. Just press a F button and port over there, easy without a macro that could fail to work.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

I prefer the BLM skill. Just press a F button and port over there, easy without a macro that could fail to work.

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Ease of use depends on if you are using a controller or keyboard+mouse. But, I meant more that Shukuchi gives you control over movement, whereas Aetherial Manipulation is dependent on a party member standing where you want to go.

so ive been playing around with the suggestions involving macros.

this does help from a positioning and responsiveness perspective, but the ability is still very ineffective unless used in specific scenarios like avoiding large AOE from an enemies origin and teleporting back on said enemy after it's attack.

overall, the abilities cooldown is still very long and its range is too short, not to compensate for it's effectiveness, but for the sake of balancing in terms of travel(ninja's outclassing mounts due to one ability).

if you are assuming that i am asking for a rework, than you are not mistaken. the ability could be better without effecting the games mechanics.

I can never use them fast enough to matter. Wish jobs that got them could just bind them to double tapping a direction.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I can never use them fast enough to matter. Wish jobs that got them could just bind them to double tapping a direction.

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among other concepts that i would want for the ability, this is one of them. the ability to dash in any direction while targeting an enemy would be highly appreciated as a replacement. however, the ability would of course need to have limited use: you may only do this while targeting an enemy and an enemy for the sole purpose of the ability to not be abused as a means for faster travel.

on top of this, the ability needs less cool down. my suggestion is to have a cost and regeneration system: start with 3/5 dashes. 1 dash would replenish per 3 seconds. maximum dashes is 5.

to be fair, an ability like this would be too good for just one job. other dps jobs could have it but in a different style.

Not a ninja main but how would you all feel if it applied a stealth/suiton type buff regardless of engagement for say 5 seconds to facilitate sneak/trick attacks and up the recasts a bit to say 90-120s? As opposed to the suggested landing position selection around target.

Slight dps buff to balance the execution difficulty, wouldn't completely remove the need for suiton as it would be to long a timer to use on every sa/ta. Just something I thought about messing around with the job in duneons.

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Originally Posted by Lollie

Not a ninja main but how would you all feel if it applied a stealth/suiton type buff regardless of engagement for say 5 seconds to facilitate sneak/trick attacks and up the recasts a bit to say 90-120s? As opposed to the suggested landing position selection around target.

Slight dps buff to balance the execution difficulty, wouldn't completely remove the need for suiton as it would be to long a timer to use on every sa/ta. Just something I thought about messing around with the job in duneons.

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especially if there are flank buff attacks like Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush, it would be nice to "stealth" in and out of combat: more ways to unlock the enemy from targeting you and flanking them as they are still aware of your presence. i would personally like it if all ninja attacks where to have flanking benefits if such a concept were to be implemented.

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Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon

this is actually very interesting could you also do macros for other abilities like ninjutsu and combos? or are they limited to one command?

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Anything that uses a ground target recently got this option. So for nin shukuchi would be the only applicable skill. But you can do it with shadow flare, salted earth, popping mch turrets etc. (And for all of these anything you can target works; you can cast shadow flare on a tank and it'll center it on where they were standing when you started casting, etc)

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Originally Posted by Lollie

Not a ninja main but how would you all feel if it applied a stealth/suiton type buff regardless of engagement for say 5 seconds to facilitate sneak/trick attacks and up the recasts a bit to say 90-120s? As opposed to the suggested landing position selection around target.

Slight dps buff to balance the execution difficulty, wouldn't completely remove the need for suiton as it would be to long a timer to use on every sa/ta. Just something I thought about messing around with the job in dungeons.

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Even in soloing, taking a few seconds less to Sneak/Trick Attack without using Suiton isn't going to be worth losing that much usage of the ability. In hits like a truck, even on its own. And in group content, the bonus damage quickly adds up to at least another vehicular load of damage.

Now, I'll agree that in general Hide should not slow the Rogue/Ninja by nearly as much as it does, that dungeon mobs shouldn't auto-detect until the end of their domains, and maybe Rogue/Ninja should have a reduced acquisition range even when not stealthed, or, as suggested, a (pseudo-)stealth on Shukuchi, but no content-running NIN is going to be okay with 67% to 50% the possible frequency of TA applications.

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Originally Posted by Lollie

I think you miss understood what I mean. I was referring to an increase in Shukuchi recast not st/ta, and not the removal of suiton as a trigger for being able to use them. Basically it would free up every other sa/ta applies inherent mudra usage cost every other usage. so Shukuchi would go to 90-120 seconds ans sa/ta would remain at the 60 it is now.

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Ahh, I see, I assumed the wrong antecedent. My apologies. That makes more much more sense to me now.

That said, I feel like the Shukuchi cooldown is rather long even now (I'd say the same for Elusive Jump, or Spineshatter before its CD was drastically reduced, etc. ...though Shoulder Rush and Aetherial Manipulation have only ever been a beautifully short 30s CD across ARR+). I'd hate to have its mobility provided be diminished just to make it easier to forgo a potency loss in a given mudra, skip a couple oGCD steps, or couple movement with utility. (Heck, you'd have to be sure to be using it only for the way back into melee range, never out, as not to waste the TA/ST availability.)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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I think you miss understood what I mean. I was referring to an increase in Shukuchi recast not st/ta, and not the removal of suiton as a trigger for being able to use them. Basically it would free up every other sa/ta applies inherent mudra usage cost every other usage. so Shukuchi would go to 90-120 seconds ans sa/ta would remain at the 60 it is now.

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Originally Posted by Lollie

I think you miss understood what I mean. I was referring to an increase in Shukuchi recast not st/ta, and not the removal of suiton as a trigger for being able to use them. Basically it would free up every other sa/ta applies inherent mudra usage cost every other usage. so Shukuchi would go to 90-120 seconds ans sa/ta would remain at the 60 it is now.

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I would rather have relatively useless abilities like Hide reworked for combat rather than Shukuchi, which I think is fine as is. It's a movement ability, it doesn't need special attributes or effects. It's simply used to position yourself where you need/want to be. Personally I use it pretty frequently and don't see a need for a big change.

I always felt shukuchi was made like this to balance the fact that it has faster base movement than every other melee.

You can also use it without targeting, which can come in handy more often than you'd think.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

It's simply used to position yourself where you need/want to be.

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And it's not even a very good ability for that - Between picking a target, the smokebomb animation, the relatively slow travel time and the pop-up animation, simply walking to a location is often faster. I'd say the break even is around 50-60% of the range, but I didn't do tests.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

And it's not even a very good ability for that - Between picking a target, the smokebomb animation, the relatively slow travel time and the pop-up animation, simply walking to a location is often faster. I'd say the break even is around 50-60% of the range, but I didn't do tests.

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It's could certainly be better, I'd prefer less startup animation. However, I don't think it's true that you can often walk to a location faster. I use the ability frequently and while it's hardly a game-changer I don't think it's useless or broken in any way.

I'm all for improving it's function as a movement ability, however I'm not on board with these suggestions of giving it special effects or buffs to the character. It's unecessary. If anything, the animation just needs to be tweaked to make the travel more efficient.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

It's could certainly be better, I'd prefer less startup animation. However, I don't think it's true that you can often walk to a location faster. I use the ability frequently and while it's hardly a game-changer I don't think it's useless or broken in any way.

I'm all for improving it's function as a movement ability, however I'm not on board with these suggestions of giving it special effects or buffs to the character. It's unecessary. If anything, the animation just needs to be tweaked to make the travel more efficient.

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there is still a situation with the cool-down and limited range of the ability not compensating for its overall effectiveness. however, reducing the cool down and increasing the range will only result in the abuse of the ability for game exploiting reasons (ninja's outclassing mounts).

the only way is a rework without breaking the game. the ability simply cannot stay as it is.

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Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon

there is still a situation with the cool-down and limited range of the ability not compensating for its overall effectiveness. however, reducing the cool down and increasing the range will only result in the abuse of the ability for game exploiting reasons (ninja's outclassing mounts).

the only way is a rework without breaking the game. the ability simply cannot stay as it is.

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Yes it can stay as it is at its core. The only thing that needs to be done is to fix the animation and startup so that it can be executed instantly rather than having the slight lag that it has now.

Shukuchi is already the most flexible of the movement abilities for DPS. Aetherial Manipulation can only target a party member, Shoulder Tackle can only target an enemy, Dragoon had various jumps but each has a set landing behavior. Shukuchi can be free-aimed and can also be used to move directly to any selected target (party member, enemy, object).

I think it should be used more like a charge attack like monk's shoulder charge, dark knights jump flip thing, or a dragoon's jump.

How I would personally like to see it happen: On use your character vanishes and near instantly appears behind your target dealing 200 potency damage (simply 200 b/c nin has a tendency to have lower damage than other classes) 30 second cool down, off global timer.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

Yes it can stay as it is at its core. The only thing that needs to be done is to fix the animation and startup so that it can be executed instantly rather than having the slight lag that it has now.

Shukuchi is already the most flexible of the movement abilities for DPS. Aetherial Manipulation can only target a party member, Shoulder Tackle can only target an enemy, Dragoon had various jumps but each has a set landing behavior. Shukuchi can be free-aimed and can also be used to move directly to any selected target (party member, enemy, object).

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even those abilities, or abilities similar to Shukuchi, have their own controversy. i believe someone here mentioned the abilities already.

i do agree that the ability should take a lot less time to use, but again, we have a situation where the developers dont want us to abuse the ability out of combat: they will have second thought before taking action.

Personally I wish both Shukuchi and Aether Manipulation would just automatically send your character the max distance in front of you if you don't have a target selected. If you do have a target selected you'll travel to that exact spot or the furthest you can travel towards the position of your target.

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Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon

[...] we have a situation where the developers dont want us to abuse the ability out of combat:

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Abuse for what, tho'?

It's on a pretty long CD, it's not like we can zoom around the map at sonic speed and it still doesn't allow us to climb un-climb-able surfaces. The range is short as well. Maybe if they took the pathing off the ability and just ported us to the target location...that could be abused for out of border shenanigans. But I can't think of much more >.>

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Abuse for what, tho'?

It's on a pretty long CD, it's not like we can zoom around the map at sonic speed and it still doesn't allow us to climb un-climb-able surfaces. The range is short as well. Maybe if they took the pathing off the ability and just ported us to the target location...that could be abused for out of border shenanigans. But I can't think of much more >.>

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the assumption is that if they were to decrease the cool-down and increase the range, there is a chance that ninja's would outclass mounts and short distance walks in terms of travel speed: for example its obvious that the developers want you as the player to walk/sprint from one NPC/PC/Destination to another, not teleport (short distance perspective).

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

Personally I wish both Shukuchi and Aether Manipulation would just automatically send your character the max distance in front of you if you don't have a target selected. If you do have a target selected you'll travel to that exact spot or the furthest you can travel towards the position of your target.

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this would actually be the best option. for myself, sometimes the final execution of Shukuchi is unresponsive because the place i target is barely too far. it should deny the player from moving the target beyond it's maximum range. with this, the player would just be able to face forward and double tap the action to quickly move in the direction of which they face if they desire to travel shukuchi's maximum distance.

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Originally Posted by Mysticdraggon

this would actually be the best option. for myself, sometimes the final execution of Shukuchi is unresponsive because the place i target is barely too far. it should deny the player from moving the target beyond it's maximum range. with this, the player would just be able to face forward and double tap the action to quickly move in the direction of which they face if they desire to travel shukuchi's maximum distance.

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The ability to place the targeting indicator beyond maximum range and just have it go to whatever would be max range in that direction was literally one of the most applauded functions of an entire expansion for WoW Warriors. We could certainly do the same.