The toxicity of questing in MMORPGs today

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Annwyn/1...-mmorpgs-today

ok right of the start the subject did loose me.... older mmorpg with a complex story line? seriously? which one please?

in older mmorpg, quest was rare and even when they was adding one is more an escuse than a true: " a complex story carefully woven that will carry the player from the very beginning until the end."

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In older RPGs, progression happened naturally as the player would visit new areas, defeat bosses, etc. In some RPGs the player might also have to grind, but unless the goal was to reach level 99, the grind was not mind numbing.

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pink glasses of nostalgia detected.... most of the mmorpg before everquest and the theme park in general (yeah, because wow did steal most of it from Everquest) you had mmorpg, type anarchy online, lineage,.... most of them was a mindless grind! it's was get to a place and farm monster for hours litterally. FF11 is an old type, before some change it was: get in town, get a party, find a spot, and pull monster over and over and over, the only rest was when the caster had no mana left. rinse and repeat.

Anarchy online had even add a system of randomized mission, but it was simply a spot your can create, the goal was one more time, kill monster and monster and monster. (even if it was possible to create mission where the goal was to find item, AO did make a good system that with a bit of work can be used in FF14)

i did stop to read when the guys did say that in modern mmorpg it's needed to do quest for unlock area, but it was already the case in the older one.... the point is the number of quest was soo little that you was happy to do it.

another point bothering me it's the fact to say that subscription mmorpg goal is to slow you down....when honestly FF14 don't really slow us down... some even complain that it go too fast. with the add of the palace of the dead it did even become faster to level up. you level up your job in the palace of the dead (that is a classical dungeon/monster party a la AO) and after you focus the MSQ, but it's not even needed, the MSQ can bring you to 60 easily now. it do take time about 2 week.... i still remember taking 6 month only for reach my dragoon 42 on FF11... or some other game where it did take me longuer.

Questing wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't wash and repeat so often. It's usually "go here and kill 10 of this monster for whatever reason" or "talk to this guy all the way over here, then come all the way back over here" etc. I don't even do quests anymore in this game, despite there being sooo many, I usually just level off of dungeons. Even that after a certain amount of time can be pretty repetitive too.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

ok right of the start the subject did loose me.... older mmorpg with a complex story line? seriously? which one please?

in older mmorpg, quest was rare and even when they was adding one is more an escuse than a true: " a complex story carefully woven that will carry the player from the very beginning until the end."

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In older mmorpgs like Dark Age of Camelot the world itself told the story. But in today's generation of mmorpgs doesn't it feel strange that all the exact same quests are done by millions of people... the npcs give out the exact same quests and rewards to millions of other players... doesn't it feels artificial?

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Originally Posted by Kragon

In older mmorpgs like Dark Age of Camelot the world itself told the story. But in today's generation of mmorpgs doesn't it feel strange that all the exact same quests are done by millions of people... the npcs give out the exact same quests and rewards to millions of other players... doesn't it feels artificial?

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No because that's how video games work. You're only ever going to get what the game/plot is made from, nothing more nothing less. Can they do something different? Maybe but why should they if it's untested now days?

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Originally Posted by Kragon

In older mmorpgs like Dark Age of Camelot the world itself told the story. But in today's generation of mmorpgs doesn't it feel strange that all the exact same quests are done by millions of people... the npcs give out the exact same quests and rewards to millions of other players... doesn't it feels artificial?

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the fact that 100-1000 people did kill the wolf of the same area for age don't bother you? don't it make artificial how the monster spawn?

why care about what the other did do? that the real trouble of the mmorpg world now... people are always looking at what the other do. they check what raid they did complete, if they was the first and such... if they do the story and such... who care, the point is to do your stuff, yes you will have content that you will do with group, small or big, but in the end the important is your own experience.
the raid i did complete in my time of hardcore (it's over by the way), even with a static was not perceive the same way for anybody. it will depend of the role, the type of content and such.

the experience you will feel is the real point important. the fact that you can't find fun anymore is simply saying you have play too much. because in older game, we was killing monster for... no reason, quest are simply a reason for cover the bashing of monster. more or less with story.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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While I do tend to agree with you on not caring what others accomplish, it's pretty much a given that many people play mmos to obtain X item before everyone else, but when everything starts out the same and everyone progresses through the story the same (if it really has one and not just a multitude of quests) things become impersonal. Like for example being the WoL and the 7 others you kill things with are just experienced adventures, but in the end we are all the WoL.

If you play ESO you get this feeling a lot, you're supposed to be the main hero, and you think you've carved out this awesome experience only to find out 5000 other people did that as well, or you've plowed through this tough cave on this side quest you found along that winding road, that you found because you ventured off the beaten path and found it behind the waterfall, and out of the blue 34 more players show up to loot that same chest.

After awhile it makes the game world feel less lively and ends up having less immersion, but then again 14 never really had much immersion anyway.

that a debat we had recently on the french forum, the Warrior of Light is not only one person, it was told to us that we are a lot to have receive the echos. we are ONE of the warrior of light. indeed some question will make it quite inpersonal to have the same quest... but depending of the job you play the first time you do the quest you will not have the same feeling in the end. let's take the exemple of the msq that make you do trial, if you are a healer or a tank or a dps, your feeling about this trial will change, indeed the end of the story will be the same for everyone, but it can't be helped.

but like i said, why care? i do my stuff, if someone do it too why i care? we can discuss and maybe we will not have the same understanding, allowing us to discuss how it did evolve.

but in all honesty, the quest system is only a cover for the bashing of monster. do you want to come back in the time you had no quest and was only killing monster? no because it was the system of the V1.... in the V1 you had 1 story quest every 5 level and most of your exp was done with monster party, do it was more funnier? less grindy? more....real? no because tons of people was killing the same monster spawning at the same point at the same given time.

when you play a multiplayer game you can't expect to have a solo experience. some stuff will be generic whatever they do. an example that seems quite nice, from yoshida while the fanfest, when someone have said why my character can't heal when i'm scolar/white mage/astrologian? the question was clever, and yoshida have said they will try to take this in account in the futur, but he did say too that if a character needed to die, they will die! because in the end, the story must go in the sense they want.
even in solo game in the end we go where the dev choose we go... it's always artificial and inpersonal, tons of tons of people will do it too.

do i feel the quest system is perfect, hell no, but it's far better than some alternative we have for now.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

ok right of the start the subject did loose me.... older mmorpg with a complex story line? seriously? which one please? [...]

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If you reread carefully, the article begins by talking about regular, singleplayer RPGs, and then moves on to MMORPGs afterwards.

I feel like it is a given that your progress will feel impersonal because these are RPGs, not fantasy world simulators, which is what would be required to have spontaneously generated content that everyone and their mom hasn't done too.

If you take Skyrim for example; you create your own persona in Tamriel and you alone are the hero/antihero the npcs talk to. There's no multiplayer so its just you running around the world. But then remember that while you cant see them, hundreds of thousands of other gamers are experiencing all the same content you are. The only unique experiences to you might be a funny combination of glitches.

It's just a little easier to pretend otherwise when you don't see other people running around killing the same legendary bad guy.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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Well, its nice to know that some of us were just as anti-social back in the old days of mmorpgs as we are now. You're talking about getting a party and mindlessly grinding mobs until one has to rest (or sometimes having a power level), but some of us were actually pretty social in said parties, often times making friends and continuously partying with those people on a regular basis until we hit level cap together. Many people like those times because of said experiences and only having quests when they actually gave something worth it (in FFXI's case it would usually be class armor and spells). It modern games, you hardly talk to anyone, let alone see many of those people again outside of said instanced zone. Not everyone's personal experience is about the individual. Many people play MMORPGs for the experiences they can share with others.

• 1. Other players do the same quests: Does not bother me one bit. I'm the hero of my own story, if you are overly obsessed with what others do, well, that's your problem.
• 2. You have to complete several quests to level up: So..? I take "doing 15 quests that give me a reason to slay 40 monsters to level up" over "slaying 40 monsters without purpose (just for the exp)" everyday..:rolleyes: And don't even start acting as if grinding mindlessly was not a part of old-time RPGs. Because it absolutely was.
• 3. You can't leave the area without finishing all quests first: This might be the one I can get behind the most out of everything he said. I always loved the thrill of sneaking through high-level areas as a lowbie, and FFXIV gives you several roadblocks here (lvl 15 airship needed to even be allowed off Vylbrand, all of 2.x to enter Ishgard (although I can get behind this decision because it is heavily story-related, and old single-player locked certain areas behind story progression too)..
• 4. Quests are boring anyway so me and my friends don't read them. They can't make sense anyway because I'm a hero and a hero shears no sheep: Most gamers I know read the text. I read the text. THe stories that unfold are often interesting, fun, expand on the world's lore or have a lot of togue-in-cheek humour about how exactly the great hero of the land ended up shearing sheep. But I guess he did not know that since he skips all the text..:rolleyes:
• 5. There is no reason to revisit older areas: FATEs, hunts, maps, main story, etc. all lead players back to the low level areas in FFXIV. While I do agree that there is absolutely not enough reason to really explore areas except for maybe the sightseeing log, his complaint completely misses the point.

This entire article sounds to me as if someone forgot he put on his nostalgia glasses when he went outside and now he is back home but the shades are still on..:cool:
He even mentions all the dynamic content and alternatives to questing in today's MMOs but quickly dismisses them as being "the same mechanics under a different name", acting as if mindlessly slaying monsters wasn't a part of the games of old where he talks about "natural story progression". Well, guess how many rats and goblins and slimes I slayed in the old days to just get from point A to point B in older RPGs >.>

But hey, that's like, just his opinion so who am I to judge? If he doesn't enjoy today's MMOs anymore, well, too bad. I still do, many others still do, and all the things that frustrate him make me and many others happy.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Well, its nice to know that some of us were just as anti-social back in the old days of mmorpgs as we are now. You're talking about getting a party and mindlessly grinding mobs until one has to rest (or sometimes having a power level), but some of us were actually pretty social in said parties, often times making friends and continuously partying with those people on a regular basis until we hit level cap together. Many people like those times because of said experiences and only having quests when they actually gave something worth it (in FFXI's case it would usually be class armor and spells). It modern games, you hardly talk to anyone, let alone see many of those people again outside of said instanced zone. Not everyone's personal experience is about the individual. Many people play MMORPGs for the experiences they can share with others.

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yeah it was social, but in the end it was a mindless grind... the point was about the mindless grind, not about the social part of it. and honestly when you did spend 1-3 hours to do the same mindless grind, you run fast out of joke, worst it make you totally out of the game since you will start to talk of stuff totally unrelated to the game.

however i admit i did wish the quest system was allowing more grouping, ff14 have a trouble with this part, and i have said that the quest system is far to be perfect, but the bashing, monster party and such don't make the mmorpg better. i still recall how some class was simply hated in some game for some bashing because not efficient enough. leading to some toxicity that was strong enough for make people stop to play. older game wasn't that better, the toxicity was more insidious.

ps: a point important you talk of sharing experience with other, but when was the last time you did try to share experience with people outside your group, extending this number of people you was playing with? nice to talk of social, but that too is something modern mmorpg did create, people don't want to extend them circle of friend.

Questing in concept is not toxic, open world grinding in concept is not toxic. A repeated formula omitting player input and removing variables input is the toxic part that questing entails.

For event/method of questing: The Action Process(The mechanics)
I see quests as jobs. We have 100s of professions in the real world. Most real life professions require different methods of getting the job done. A hunter's quest involves far more than traveling to said location and killing something. There are methods of tracking, using right bait or trap, choice of weapon, approach, and various other things. While tracking a small creature, you could stumble into a bear or whatever and your hunting trip changes. In most online worlds, it is just travel here, kill that, RNG drop rates. The same UI, same flavor, most is achieved the same way regardless of the type of job.

The Action Process Fix:
The fix is situation dependent mechanics and each profession/quest to require different mechanics from another.It is expensive to a developer because it requires a larger cost and more time since assets cannot be reused as much. One example of the quest action process fix is the recent Haunted Manor event. It is relatively simple, and could be annoying to some. But as far as difference? It feels night and day different from traveling from one npc to the next for dialogue that does not change.

The Variable Process
No job or hobby or quest is worthwhile or begs your attention if there is no chance of different outcomes. The bad example of this is RNG when talking about rewards. I am speaking of the actual quest having a chance to be different. This can be applied as flavor or actual permanence in dialogue. Or a variable can be applied to the route you take in accomplishing a task. Take x route may be safer but will take longer, where as taking Y route that passes through area could be faster but you may run into trouble. A shape-able or changing world can alter those variables even further but that goes into the realm of if it is fair or not to the majority in a massive multiplayer game.

I see some talk down to open world monster slaying. To me that is less tedious than quest zerging. I consider crafting, harvesting, and questing all busy work when I am trying to play a battle class. That is one thing I loathed in Dragon Age Inquisition. It is especially less tedious when world enemies have unique traits and mechanics that make them behave differently from the other world species. Which results in emergent gameplay, as in being clever with pulls to party, being sneaky, learning surrounds so as you don't need a map to know where key locations are. Another addition to slaying is an actual group skill synergy system like Renkei, GW2 combos, ESO synergy, Lotoro Fellowship Manevuer, etc. All this adds up to the world being more immersive

Ending thought:
I think regardless of what happens with questing. The focus of the game should be adaptive scaling. You have to either group or solo MSQ. You either group or solo alot of things. Most combat stuff is solo meaning you master your rotation and dodge your mechanics. With no synergy between jobs or ways of dealing with difficult obstacles. Yes, you are in a party but you don't really synergize to a great extent.Most content imo, should be adaptive to allow a solo and scale according to group members. There should be party quest which is what guildleves was trying to be originally but they stopped developing it.

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Originally Posted by KitingGenbu

Well, its nice to know that some of us were just as anti-social back in the old days of mmorpgs as we are now.

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I tried FFXI and gave up at level 18, because it was one long struggle in the Valkrum dunes to even find parties as a DPS, which I was just leveling as a subjob to the DPS I wanted to play. I never found a LS or group of friends in that time, and I did try to be social, with the parties I found and the people hanging around.

I'm way more social in FFXIV. Found a FC through google, found statics through the FC, and a few friends through PF. I prefer smaller groups of closer friends (static) than shorter contact out in the world. Besides, even if no one is around, the DF system allows me to actually run content, rather than AFKing in a zone, hoping for a party.

As for the main topic.. I've heard that mindset before, but, I don't get it. What do you expect from a video game..? The MSQ experiences of other players do not detract from my own.

It does seem like the quests are formulaic in single-player as well as multiplayer CRPGs, with probably less than a dozen basic varieties: fetch quests, delivery quests, hidden object quests, stealth quests, escort missions, kill X monster quests, puzzle/riddle quests, etc.. After doing something like 50 hours of sidequests in Nier I didn't even bother with the rest of them for the trophy, simply because they seemed so tedious.

MMOs (and probably some offline games) add repeatable dungeons, boss battles, and quests, which are a two-edged sword: it's nice to be able to revisit particularly cool battles or areas more than once, but if you do it too many times it can become tedious and boring. Offline games also recycle the same areas using New Game+, much as FFXIV reuses areas and enemies for hard/expert/savage modes.

That being said, I think the original article nails it by referring to the 36 dramatic situations. Movies, plays, books, TV shows, comics, etc. all repeat these scenarios ad nauseam, but we keep coming back for more for some reason. Presumably RPG (both online and offline) stories could (and should) be just as engaging. Popular music tends to reuse the same chord progressions, rhythms, melodies, lyrics, rhymes, themes, etc. but people keep listening to it!

At the end of the day I think it may largely be an issue of whether the RPG is well-written and whether each quest adds something interesting to the story or lore of the world. I tend to read all of the flavor text in FFXIV, and watch all cutscenes, simply because I enjoy the Final Fantasy-style story and I always want to find out more about the world and its inhabitants. I particularly enjoy when you have a series of quests that tell the story (or backstory) of a particular NPC that you happen to encounter or interact with regularly in the normal course of the game. The postmoogle quests were nice in this regard.

The key advantage of MMOs (and offline multiplayer RPGs) vs. offline RPGs isn't really quests; rather, it is that battles (and the game in general) can be much more challenging and unpredictable when you have multiple players involved. MMOs add all kinds of multiplayer interaction (cooperation, competition, economy, social interaction, etc.) which make repetitions of the same content more interesting. Players can even come up with ways to use the game content in creative ways (like the people on our server who made their own haunted house event this week for Halloween.) Online games are also constantly evolving in a way that offline games usually aren't - adding and refining content over years, often adding up to an amazing amount of it. Long-term grinds and progression limits can be annoying - I'm not entirely sure what I think of them. They're mostly a gimmick to keep you playing, delay completion of the content, and maximize subcription revenue. But there is a slightly appealing aspect to having long-term goals that people (with more time than you) can't simply blast through in a week. And I definitely like well-designed, long-lived battles that take a while to master and you can't simply phone in even when you have beaten them a number of times. The ongoing metagame of "every player in the game vs. the game developers" is something I greatly appreciate.

p.s. Regarding grinds: largely for completionist reasons I expect, I finished Yo-Kai, but I think it diminished my appreciation of the game somewhat. Perhaps it was a trick by the developers to prevent people from complaining about the next relic grind or something.

p.p.s. Good construction systems tend to increase longevity of any game. In FFXIV we see this in glamours/dying and house design.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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Being social does not mean always having to relate to in game material, which is highly unlikely to talk about if you're new. Some people are comfortable talking about random stuff while others aren't. Doesn't mean things are limited to just that. People are ultimately limited to themselves.

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Originally Posted by raela

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As I mentioned earlier, everyone's experiences aren't always the same and there are many elements in FFXI that I wish were more modernized at there time to make it a more flexible experience. I won't pretend that I always had luck with getting people and even if I did make parties to level, I often had to find people which would take hours. Not to mention I was a lot younger and only had school to deal with so I had more flexible time to play the game as opposed to now; however, I did meet a lot of individuals in the game by doing so, mainly because it was annoying to find people and humans tend to travel the path of least resistance, so if you're grouping with a certain group of people often, you tend to look for them first before just tossing yourself in the wind and hope you land somewhere.

As we get older, what we want from games will usually change to meet our situations, which is inevitable. It would just be nice to have an approach that catered to both styles rather just adapting to one or the other. Its not exactly appealing to a new player running around an area and seeing no one mainly because most content is instanced based through-out the game (this is directed at most modern games, not just FFXIV). Having a balance allows the game to feel more lively and inviting while also allowing those with awkward schedules to still enjoy the game.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

why care about what the other did do? that the real trouble of the mmorpg world now... people are always looking at what the other do. they check what raid they did complete, if they was the first and such... if they do the story and such... who care, the point is to do your stuff,.

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Traditionally speaking one of the most appealing things about rpgs for many players is the way there characters grow and become more powerful as they play. everything you do makes you stronger or a bigger "hero" within the game world.

as a result of this what other players do does factor into it. clearing xelphatol for example in the latest patch doesn't make you feel particularly heroic because its something within the game that virtually everyone has done. and the point of being a hero is doing things others could not...

you could look at any old story for example. david and goliath. would david be a hero to the people if every single one of the people was also a giant slayer? no he wouldn't he'd just be another one of the people. probably wouldn't even know his name.

so in that same fashion, its easy to see why players do look at what others have done, it's why you see people afk in iddyllshire swinging there new axe or wearing that new armor, having something others don't have adds to the hero element. it's something that sets you apart from the world and helps you feel a hero.

being "bob the ifrit crusher" for example isn't anywhere near as heroic or as being "bob the vanquisher of alexander" mostly because everyone has killed ifrit so theres nothing special or heroic about it. and many would say the main draw of RPG is the heroic feeling your character gains as you play.

To make something cheap and available to the masses there are not a lot of different formulas. Developers can't make a unique experience for all users and at the same time make it quick and cost effective.

The very nature of it being an RPG also limits how the character needs to level up and develop skills. Otherwise a game could be completely skill based and still a MMO, but each user would tackle dungeons or events by how good they actually play instead of leveling up. Like playing a Legend of Zelda game but online, or a platformer.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

it's something that sets you apart from the world and helps you feel a hero.

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Nothing ever will set you apart from everyone else unless the entire game was made entirely only for you.

Currently, most of my friends are playing the 20 year edition of Rise of the Tomb Raider. It's a single player game, but of course we talk about it.
Going by your logic, going up against Trinity, uncovering all these secrets, etc. is not worth anything, because the others are doing the same.
But you might argue that it doesn't count because Lara is a properly established character, not a blank slate like the WoL.

Well, then let's look at other games that have fairly blank slates; since the article has nostalgia written all over it, how about Pokemon Red/Blue?
As a child/teenager, when you finally beat the Pokemon League, or completed the Pokedex and exitedly told your friends in school,
did it also take away from your enjoyment that they had also beaten the PL or saved the world from Team Rocket?
I assume not. Why should that be different in MMOs? You know the other players are real people too, so why does it bother you that other real players go through the same story and finish the same achievements?

In YOUR version of the story, YOU are the hero.
The game might aknowledge that others are there and helped you, but you are the only one in YOUR perspective who is special.
Just how YOU were the new champ in your copy of Red/Blue and your friend was in his :)
I do not see any reason why others having the same story is detrimental to your own experience other than robbing you of a fake sense of being better than others in real life, which is just sad, if you actually need that feeling to enjoy a game.
If you want to be proud of actual non-made up achievements, then beat extra hard fights that are not part of the story but show your actual superior ability to play the game well (in this case, savage mode, I guess?).

I don't think we suffer as much here, because we can do everything on one character so we only experience and do the quests once. In other MMOs I was an altholic with numerous alts... but here I'm fully satisfied with my sole character.

Lol, "Toxicity of questing."
I'm so tired of hearing that word thrown around for anything someone doesn't like.

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Originally Posted by Kragon

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Annwyn/1...-mmorpgs-today

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The thing is, FFXIV addresses many of these issues and does so successfully.

1. Everyone is the hero: This is simply not true. YOU are the hero. The MSQ doesn't praise the badass tank, DPS, or healer that you were grouped with even if they single-handedly save the entire run. It praises you. YOU might see that the game is filled with warriors of light, but the game ONLY sees you. If you want to live up to the name, then be the one that saves an entire instance from fail.

2. What's wrong with grinding? Every role-playing game I have ever participated in has a grind. Whether it's leveling, getting your ultimate weapon, or inflating your inventory with useful items: The grind has always been a part of RPG's. Don't like it, don't play. Without the grind, everyone and their brother AND their sister will have all the same crap. Nope!

3. Again, there is nothing wrong with this. FFXIV in particular keeps content locked from those who have no business in said content. In short, area A, is a whole different animal from area B. Prepare for more of this with 4.0. It's not going to change.

4. From one perspective: Why on Earth is the warrior of light running errands for some lowbie who needs to deliver cookies asap when he/she eats primals for breakfast? From another perspective: The warrior of light helps everyone regardless if it is delivering cookies or handing a primal their own ass. Being the WoL entails that you work in the people of Eorzea's best interest; not your own. It's why Ramuh considers you ligit.

5. New players gives veterans all the reason they need to revisit old areas. In fact, I'd say that is the reason why most of them do it. It is also not out of the ordinary for anyone to repeat instances for the enjoyment and don't care at all about the rewards. Especially when running content with friends. An enjoyable instance, regardless of how many times it has been ran before, is rewarding in itself.

tl;dr. Questing is a good thing. The entire game is optional. No one is forcing you to play it.

I kinda stopped reading when the article start to arrogantly imply or state how I feel. Holier than thou is so trite these days.

Hey guys, I'm the original person who wrote the blog on the toxicity of questing.

My biggest issue with questing in MMOs is that they basically took the formula from single-player RPGs, added it into MMORPGs with little to no adaptation and multiplied the amount by 1000. There are so many quests and in most MMOs they offer so very little in terms of meaning, they're just fillers to get you to the next level/area, and I can only do so much of those until I run out of patience. Basically if I'm playing a video game, I'm looking to have fun, not do chores for 80 levels until I finally get to jump into the fun part, so that's where I'm coming from with this. I do believe that questing has its place in MMORPGs however, but I'm very much against the current format and the way its forced on players.

Got to give credit where credit is due though, FFXIV does have a really awesome main story and some interesting side quests as well.

Hope this clears things up a little.

See ya!

I think questing in MMORPGs is great. Despite the fact I played a game called EverQuest, it was anything but. It was Ever-Grab-Friends-and-Pull-to-the-Same-Spot-Over-and-Over-to-Level.

I will take actual quests over zone camping any day.

I disagree, I like questing in MMORPG as long as there is an enough good story to follow.

Also from the link the guy said:

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, developers would have to create a game that will use video game controllers, meaning that the combat would be more action-oriented, and this opens the door for content where a player's skills, as a person rather than as a character, will be put to the test.

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He's not talking about MMORPG anymore, he just wants an action MMO, MMOFPS, or whatever you want to call it, which makes his rant kind of a moot point. You can be in a wheelchair in real-life and roleplay a jumping Dragoon. The more your make real life player's attributes/skills important into a game, the more limited the roleplay can be.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

as a result of this what other players do does factor into it. clearing xelphatol for example in the latest patch doesn't make you feel particularly heroic because its something within the game that virtually everyone has done. and the point of being a hero is doing things others could not...
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Back in the time, nobody complained about that they were not the only one who defeated Sephiroth in FF VII, but millions of players around the world did the same.

Within the story the other players are irrelevant. They are just adventurers who help you.
Those who complain about it have not mastered the "see the world through the eyes of the character and ignore what you know as a player" thing.

That writer just wants games to be like the SOA anime / manga, where you live in the world and your actions are your own skill.

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

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The RPG genre is not limited by the kind of combat chosen by its developers. An Elder Scrolls game is as much an RPG as a game like Final Fantasy. MMORPGs are no exception despite the lack of "innovation" over the last decade (and longer) in the way they are played. The choice of combat type has no bearing on a player's ability to RP.

The particular part you quoted however referred to the future, VR MMORPGs, and how the VR genre will undoubtedly force developers to bring about some changes in how they conceive MMOs if they intend on bringing the MMO world to the VR world. My point was that I don't see the current formula changing until the very last moment where the medium (VR) will force them to seek alternatives to the traditional formula, because the old formulas are not as feasible for VR. Using a keyboard is difficult while wearing a VR headset hence the need for an alternative: a controller.

I don't think questing have changed much since the first MMOs besides quest marks on NPCs and map markers, what makes a quest good or bad is the writing and its gameplay.

This questing system will be here as long as there's enough people who enjoy it. But this does not conflict with what the writer of the blog wants. The perfect system would be one that uses a traditional questing system to tell a story, that will be equal for everyone, and a different system for sidequests. Here's where we face the problem...

Someone said the writer just wanted MMOs to be like SAO anime/novels , that's provably true, but not wrong, in SAO, or in the ALO saga to be exact, the hero plays a game ruled by an AI capable of creating unique quests and altering the world based on said quest.

This AI system should and must be the dream and goal of every MMO developer, and it's the only solution to give players unique experiences. The first title who tried to achieve something like this was Everquest Next, they failed, but not only because of the difficulty of the task, they failed, because daybreak who was in charge of the development, was not prepared to face the difficulty of creating this new system, but this is a discussion for a whole different topic.

Regarding the future of MMORPGs, yes VR is the future, and gamepad will provably gain popularity, but 14 years ago we could play lineage II and FFXI with a gamepad, so action is not the only compatible system with VR, may be action will end being the default system once we can control videogames with our minds, but that's still far.

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Originally Posted by Annwyn

Hey guys, I'm the original person who wrote the blog on the toxicity of questing.

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I just don't understand why you used the word "Toxic".
I feel like you used an extreme word for something that's not all that bad at all.
Oh well, I came from League and people there are TOXIC as all hell
and that is where I first heard it being used, so I don't see the comparison.

Playing an MMO in VR would bring with it a whole slew of new problems far beyond simply altering the control scheme or questing structure. Can you imagine trying to dance around the AOE parties of most of FFXIV's high-end content without the spatial awareness granted by a third-person camera? Hell, just trying to accomplish jumping puzzles in first-person mode where you can't see your feet can prove to be frustrating in some games.

MMOs in VR, if the MMO genre even persists that long, will bear absolutely zero resemblance to MMOs as we know them today. Even without huge leaps in hardware, MMOs of today rarely resemble the EverQuests and Ultima Onlines of yore. Will we ever see a game that truly resembles Sword Art Online as it's presented in the show? Doubtful, but I guess there's always the possibility. With regards to a game that is 100% well and truly procedurally generated via an AI that spawns unique quests, bosses, and the like and alters the game according to the actions of the players, that seems like a more feasible goal, if still quite a few years/decades off.

In summary, what we're given is perfectly functional for the present paradigm of MMOs in general. Don't like tab-target combat? Play TERA, or B&S, or BDO. Don't like having progression bound by questing or levels? Play The Secret World. Prefer a more open, expansive, living and breathing world? There's any number of sandbox MMOs out there.

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Nothing ever will set you apart from everyone else unless the entire game was made entirely only for you.

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I agree with everything else you mentioned about not being concerned about how other players are questing and such. As a player, without seeking outside assistance from the internet, what other players accomplish is only a 3rd person perspective other their adventures. Just like the real world, other people exist, they live their lives and tell their tales. Knowing that other people did the exact same thing as you in the same manner is knowledge you shouldn't know thus immersion with quests must be voluntarily given up to obtain that perspective. So yeah, I agree with you there.

But I don't think it's wholly impossible to set you apart from everyone else. I believe, if you have a variety in your perspective of play, as well as enough customization in your characters' growth and choice, you can, at the very least, give the illusion of individuality if not out right provide a large helping of individuality.

I tend to praise City of Heroes a lot however I'm aware, on the subject of questing, CoX was extremely repetitive with its mission system, but one thing that it did pretty well was making your characters' progress feel unique to a degree. You could play as a hero or a villain or someone inbetween and that drastically changed the activities you'd participate in. Not only that but at any point in your characters' career, you could go through the redemption/fall process to change factions and this would give you a different flavor of quests you could undertake (a villain-turned-hero might be more easily able to interact with darker elements vs a true-blue-hero, for example). Then there wasn't a particular story path but instead story webs that would have to engaging with different groups (think of it like if the beast tribe quests were actually the main story and you'd choose one or more to follow which would lead to different interactions with other beast tribes). So you could *make* your characters' paths feel unique in a way. Ultimately though, you're still going into instances and beating stuff up, which is what the writer of the article was complaining about.

To me, I feel the better method to solve MMO questing in the here and now is to just abandon the whole "grandiose main story plot" (keep the main plot as the anchor, though) and instead create webs of stories that all link or touch on different aspects and views of what's going on in the world. This forces you to make choices and choose paths and to the players that like story and lore, you can either create alternate characters to experience all the different story branches or just listen to friends tell the story to you and have that story be "their" story while your story is different from theirs.

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Originally Posted by Annwyn

Got to give credit where credit is due though, FFXIV does have a really awesome main story and some interesting side quests as well.

Hope this clears things up a little.

See ya!

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One criticism, but likely not only, I'd have for FFXIV and its questing is how limiting it makes things. It's cool to unlock things through questing but it's annoying to need to unlock things to get to your desired goal. Consider needing to unlock the advanced jobs, you *MUST* complete the main story scenario up to a given point or if you want to glamor gear, you *MUST* get to a certain level and then do a quest. Or certain dungeon modes and roulettes. Everything under the sun must be unlocked and the only way to know what unlocks it is to click every quest and see what it provides. But why does everything have to be quest locked in the 1st place?

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Originally Posted by Annwyn

The particular part you quoted however referred to the future, VR MMORPGs, and how the VR genre will undoubtedly force developers to bring about some changes in how they conceive MMOs if they intend on bringing the MMO world to the VR world. My point was that I don't see the current formula changing until the very last moment where the medium (VR) will force them to seek alternatives to the traditional formula, because the old formulas are not as feasible for VR. Using a keyboard is difficult while wearing a VR headset hence the need for an alternative: a controller.

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I'd disagree. Using a keyboard isn't difficult, it's just different. If you were to take away my keyboard and hand me a controller and tell me to play an MMORPG, that would be difficult for me until I learned how. I doubt I could ever play Guild Wars 2 with a controller at this point. If players feel like they must be a pianist to use a keyboard, it's likely the game's fault for having too many hotkeys available at once.

That being said, if they are going to innovate MMO controls to the point that keyboard is obsolete, some things would have to come with it:

-Some kind of voice synth technology so you can change your voice to sound like your character, thus removing the need to ever need text. Would also be cheaper to voice everything without needing to hire a but load of voice actors for everything.
-No-hands control. You'd have to do something quite drastic, such as mental inputs, to replace not utilizing a 3rd person camera for VR. I'd like to play more VR myself, but not faux-VR like we have now...

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

Playing an MMO in VR would bring with it a whole slew of new problems far beyond simply altering the control scheme or questing structure. Can you imagine trying to dance around the AOE parties of most of FFXIV's high-end content without the spatial awareness granted by a third-person camera? Hell, just trying to accomplish jumping puzzles in first-person mode where you can't see your feet can prove to be frustrating in some games.

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You can play VR in 3rd-person camera, 3rd person VR games seem to be very popular in HTC and Oculus. Most people don't realize such games exist, but the basis are the same, and we are used to experiencing situations in 3rd-person already so it's not as unnatural as you could think.

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Originally Posted by Renik

Someone said the writer just wanted MMOs to be like SAO anime/novels...

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I actually had the .Hack// series in mind as the "ultimate goal" of developers when I wrote my blog post, but SAO or even Log Horizon are not bad comparisons either.

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Originally Posted by Mugiawara

I just don't understand why you used the word "Toxic".

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I like the definition of 'toxicity' on Wikipedia : "Toxicity is the degree to which a substance can damage an organism." From my perspective, quests are so overused that they begin to harm the player experience. Rather than appearing as a mean for the developers to tell a story, it comes across as a mean for the developers to lengthen or control the time it takes for you to progress through the game. It makes sense considering that's how they make money, keeping players active in the game, but by overusing it I find that the quality of the quests themselves suffers greatly, and so does my enjoyment of the game.

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Originally Posted by Leogun

-Some kind of voice synth technology so you can change your voice to sound like your character, thus removing the need to ever need text. Would also be cheaper to voice everything without needing to hire a but load of voice actors for everything.
-No-hands control. You'd have to do something quite drastic, such as mental inputs, to replace not utilizing a 3rd person camera for VR. I'd like to play more VR myself, but not faux-VR like we have now...

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Why would they need a voice thing to make you sound like your character? I'm not being mean or demeaning either when I ask that. I generally want to know as I find that part of your text interesting.

Idk, I really enjoy questing. It's fun and it gives a tangible sense of progression. That, and I really enjoy the story that SE is telling in FFXIV.

EDIT: also, .hack// was a game trying to imitate an MMO that managed to capture all of the bad parts of MMO gameplay and none of the good. I'd hardly consider it a goal.

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Originally Posted by Leogun

If you were to take away my keyboard and hand me a controller and tell me to play an MMORPG, that would be difficult for me until I learned how.

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Just like you learned to play MMOs using a keyboard before, it's perfectly normal. You should try playing FFXIV with a PS4 controller, I actually thought SE nailed the controls pretty wellin FFXIV, although I also prefer using a mouse and keyboard in this case. The bigger issue between keyboard and VR is that unless you've got perfect keyboard controls when typing and playing, you'd waste time trying to find the right keys or regaining your finger positions with the headset covering your eyes. Controllers have the advantage of always keeping your fingers over the relevant buttons, making it far easier to play "blind" and they also allow greater mobility since you'll want to turn your head/body at times. And yes, VR MMOs will face other problems they'll need to solve like player communication.

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Originally Posted by Renik

You can play VR in 3rd-person camera, 3rd person VR games seem to be very popular in HTC and Oculus. Most people don't realize such games exist, but the basis are the same, and we are used to experiencing situations in 3rd-person already so it's not as unnatural as you could think.

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If you're going to be playing in third person anyway, what's the point of wearing a VR headset? At that point it's just a gimmick. I'd rather just keep playing the way I do now.

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Originally Posted by cammi

Why would they need a voice thing to make you sound like your character? I'm not being mean or demeaning either when I ask that. I generally want to know as I find that part of your text interesting.

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Variety of reasons:

-Playing the the same players/friends, would feel awkward hearing the same or familiar voices coming from different characters can break immersion.
-Playing as a character that doesn't match your characteristics (old man, young adult, woman, bright bubbly, gruff and rugged, etc) may not be desired by the player.
-Some people just have crappy annoying voices.
-Anonymity.

I'm sure there are more but if you're pretty much replacing standard text input, something needs to change.