DevTalk: Class Rebalancing Post 1.19

Update 1: Typos and additional changes to PGL, ARC, GLA
Update 2: Added "DPS through diversity" concept to promote cooperation and diversity: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...llChains2.0%29

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Hey all you CNJs! The team is planning for a full revamp of all actions in 1.20 and will be looking into adjusting things like the amount of enmity gained from cures. So please feel free to provide more feedback and I'll be sure we pass along your thoughts!

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Here are my thoughts on overall class identity and balance:

Goals for class balance:

Each class should have multiple things that they are good at. Balance is achieved by having some classes be a little better at other classes in certain areas, but no class should be vastly inferior.

Each class should be fun to play. Players find fun in being useful, whether it be by dealing damage, healing damage, mitigating damage, or buffing/debuffing.

At least two viable "builds" or "specs" per class:
("pure" DD like LNC and ARC really don't need this since DD is a common role)

GLA: tank and DD
MRD: tank and DD
PGL: tank and DD
LNC: DD and support
ARC: DD and support
CNJ: DD, heal, and support
THM: DD, heal, and support

Give certain skills additional bonuses for using them on their main class (This does NOT mean gimping skills when they are cross classed)

Problems with the current class balance:

Some classes are inferior to other classes in too many ways. People end up not wanting to use those classes, and players who main those classes feel useless. (Pugilists and Archers).

Some classes are only good at doing one thing, so when that role is filled in a party, they are out of luck. (Gladiator).

Not much incentive to use certain skills on their main class when they can be cross-classed on a class that is better. (e.g. No point in using "Blindside" on a native PGL when I can just use it on LNC more effectively. )

Some abilities and weaponskills have useless and have no purpose: (e.g. Hawk's Eye, Onion Cut, Discerning Eye, etc)

General outline for class changes:

GLA:
Needs to be better at single-target damage mitigation (better than MRD and PGL).
Buff shield skills, allow shield to slightly mitigate (but not nullify) enemy weapon skills, allow shield to block ranged attacks, enable parrying.
Needs to be able to do more damage, overall.
Needs to be able to respec to a DD build, if there is already a tank in the party.

MRD:
Pretty good already, changes not really needed.
Good single and multi-mob tank, good DPS already.

PGL:
Needs a lot of work.
Buff evasion skills, buff HP recovery skills, make "evasion tank" build more viable
Buff damage output
PGL's short range needs to either be eliminated, or balanced out by higher damage or higher defense

LNC:
Pretty good already, changes not really needed.
Godly DPS and support skills already.

ARC:
1.19 nerfs made ARC totally not fun at all. Roll back the nerfs slightly, but retain aspects that made ARC fun.
Allow for high spike damage, but less often for balance
Allow for greater mobility to offset low HP and defense
Allow for greater range to offset low HP and defense

CNJ & THM:
Pretty good already, changes not really needed.
If anything, make mage DD on Ifrit more viable.


DPS Generated through cooperation:

The upcoming combo system will hopefully lead to greater depth in combat strategy. We don't know much about it yet, but I'm hoping that it will encourage cooperation and class diversity by having those be the means to increasing your DPS and available tools.

I made a thread earlier about this, which you can read in more detail here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...llChains2.0%29

Basically, I want a system where the presence of a diverse party will allow you to put together more complex combos that do more damage and have varying effects.

A current Ifrit party has all lancer DDs, but with a combo system that promotes diversity, replacing one lancer with a different class will allow you to construct better, more damaging combos.

For example, there are only a limited number of ways that 2 players of the same class can combo moves, but two players of different classes have a lot more combos to choose from since there are more valid combo chains that can be formed between two different classes.

General outline for tank class balance:

• GLA should excel at damage mitigation vs single targets via shield skills
• MRD should excel at being an HP sponge, holding threat against multiple targets, and increasing battle effectiveness through "Steadfast"
• PGL should excel at evading damage and HP recovery.
• MRD and PGL tanks should not be able to match the durability of a GLA using a shield, but should be able to outdamage GLA tanks slightly to make up for this.
• Each of the 3 classes has a slight advantage in different tanking situations, but none are vastly inferior. Each can be easily replaced by the other with minimal fear of "gimping". Player skill is still the overwhelming factor in performance.

Detailed Class Changes:

I'll start with the classes that currently suck the most: PGL ARC and GLA.

[SIZE=5]Pugilist[/SIZE][SIZE=5]:
[/SIZE]
Currently, no one wants to use PGL on Ifrit or stronghold parties because:

1. It's not as good a tank as GLA or MRD
2. It's not as good DD as LNC or MRD

Goals -

1. Make PGL a viable tank compared to GLA and MRD
2. Make PGL a viable DD compared to LNC (viable, not better)

Mechanics Changes:
Set the auto-attack range to be the same as LNC, except the farther away from the target you are, the less damage you do. This will help against the PGL's main problem of fighting Ifrit.

Put in more debuff-proccing items for PGL like "Disabling Baugnakhs" back into the game. Debuff weapons have a small chance to break through the resistance of a mob that would otherwise be immune to that debuff when cast as a spell or used as a potion. (Thanks ShiShi)


Skill Changes -

Light Strike: Defense/EVA up, attack/crit down, lasts 2 minutes (1.5 min cooldown)
Flurry: Defense/EVA down, attack/crit up, lasts 2 minutes (1.5 min cooldown)

This is to incorporate the "stances" idea that they seemed to have abandoned. If you tank, you will use Light Strike, if you DD, you will use Flurry.

Heavy Strike: Add it back into the game

Pummel: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds.

Second Wind: (PGL only perk) cooldown is 30 seconds

Featherfoot: (PGL only perk) dodge 2 attacks instead of 1

Victimize: Reduce cooldown to 30 seconds. It's not fair that LNC have both Chaos Thrust and Doomspike at their disposal.

Blindside: (PGL only perk) Slightly increased damage in addition to the critical bonus, as well as procs "Slow" debuff on target(s). Gives more incentive to use Follow Through as a tank.

Presence of Mind: Make it last longer and have it actually noticeably work. Also increase overall evade proportionally to DEX.

Concussive Blow: Increase the duration and effectiveness of "Concussive Blow x3" status so that there's actually an incentive to using this WS 3 times.

Seismic Shock: Cone AOE. Increase damage. Slight knockback effect.

Aura Pulse: Reduce cooldown to 5 seconds, and slightly boost damage, so that PGL have an AOE skill that can sort of compete with Storm's Path.

Haymaker/Jarring Strike: Reduce TP cost to 100 TP

Simian Thrash: Remove evade requirement, make it work just like chaos thrust.
[SIZE=5]

[/SIZE] [SIZE=5]Archer:
[/SIZE]
No one wants to use ARC on Ifrit or stronghold because:

1. Animation lock
2. Low DPS on single and multiple targets

Goals -

1. Make archer play more like an archer. Increase range and mobility to make up for the low HP, defense, and damage. Encourage kiting and binding as a way to prevent damage through skillful play.
2. Bring back the things about archer than made it fun before 1.19, but prevent it from being overpowered. e.g. Awesome multishot

Mechanics Changes:

Eliminate the animation lock from light shot, close shot, heavy shot, and multishot

Increase the range of light shot, close shot, and heavy shot

Accuracy and damage decreased when at close range

Accuracy and damage increased when at long range


Skill Changes:


Multishot: Cooldown increased to 30 seconds, +200 enmity per use (about the same enmity generation as one taunt). Buffs are no longer divided per arrow, so damage works the same as in 1.18. ( The point is to keep spike damage high, since that was fun, but not let you use it so often because that was OP. In the meantime offer other ways to do steady damage and debuff the mob)

Trifurcate: MP cost 100, recast time 180 seconds.

Scouring Strike: (Archer only perk) In addition to removing the target's buff, it steals it and gives it to you. Sort of like Contagion, but in reverse.

Quelling Strike: Allow it to be stacked with Raging Strike

Hawk's Eye: Next attack has a 33% chance to stun (only works with Light, Close, or Heavy Shot. Fully nocked light shot has 3 chances to stun)


Arrow Helix: Slight knockback effect, and chance to bind


Barrage: Increase damage to be a little less than Chaos Thrust


(I'm not sure what to do about barrage and quick nock. They're both pretty much the same skill, and quick nock is quite useless)


Bloodletter: Increase cooldown to 1 minute, increase duration of debuff, increase damage done at the end to 1.18 levels.

Shadowbind: (ARC only perk) Bind effect lasts for 1 minute


[SIZE=5]
Gladiator:[/SIZE]


GLA is not as useful as MRD on Ifrit and stronghold parties because:

1. It has nearly the same defensive capabilities as MRD and vastly inferior offense
2. Once the tank role is filled, GLA is useless as a DD

Goals -

1. Increase GLA's defensive capabilities. especially against single targets
2. Increase GLA's offensive capabilities
3. Give GLA the option to spec for DD

Mechanics Changes:

1. Allow GLA to parry
2. Have DEX influence block rate a lot more than it currently does
3. Have VIT influence the damage mitigation of blocking instead of strength so you have to choose between attack and defense.
4. Allow blocking to slightly mitigate (but not nullify) enemy weapon skill damage
5. Create 2 handed swords so that GLA can DD if necessary
6. Get rid of the "Sentinel" shield class and put all its skills into Gladiator

Skill Changes:


Rampart: (GLA only perk) cooldown reduced to 120 seconds


Red Lotus: (GLA only perk) Boost damage, adds "Burn" damage over time


Circle Slash: Boost damage


Shield Bash: 30% chance to stun if target is in the middle of a casting animation/preparing weapon skill


Still Precision: Increase attack power and TP generation, reduce evade, block, and parry to 0.


Onion Cut: Increase damage and hate generation in proportion to difference between current HP and max HP i.e. the less HP you have, the more damage you do. You should be able to do lots of damage if you are in the red.


Cover: Make the damn move actually work better.


Luminous Spire: Increase the blind debuff duration


Rage of Halone: Actually make the damage worthwhile if you are in yellow or red HP. When at green, damage should be about the same or slightly less than a 2000TP Riot Blade, when at yellow or red HP, Rage of Halone should be Gladiator's most powerful Weapon Skill. Increase TP cost to 2000.


War Drum: Generate more hate than it does now


Sentinel: (GLA only perk) for the first 5 seconds, reduce damage by 70%


Tempered Will: Increase duration, and increase elemental resistance as well


Riot Blade: Cone AOE. Increase recast time to 45 seconds. Make the animation cooler, like Cloud's limit break, "Blade Beam"

Obsess: (GLA only perk) Additionally increase block rate and critical hit chance against target by 5%

Phalanx: Reduce TP cost to 100 TP

Idk. I would have waited at least until tomorrow for this....

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Idk. I would have waited at least until tomorrow for this....

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Why? What difference does it make?

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Idk. I would have waited at least until tomorrow for this....

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Agreed. Plus the presentation makes it seem like something official when it's all just personal opinion. I'd put a disclaimer at the top noting such.

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GLA is not as useful as MRD on Ifrit and stronghold parties because:

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This is just an out right lie. My LS has been using GLA tanks and we've been doing just fine.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Why? What difference does it make?

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We are a day away from SE publishing their major class action rehaul plans (although they will come in two parts). It would be no surprise to see that publication render everything you said here incorrect about class actions post-1.20.

They (Matsui and others) have been hyping us up about these plans for quite some time now, so I expect the changes to be significant.

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Actions will undergo major revisions, along with both the underlying mechanics and conditions.

By major revisions, not only do we mean the tweaking of effects and potency of existing actions - we will work from the ground up to redesign and reassign actions based on clearly identified class roles.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

This is just an out right lie. My LS has been using GLA tanks and we've been doing just fine.

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I never said you wouldn't be "fine", I said GLA is not as useful as MRD.

If you use a MRD tank on Ifrit, your DPS will go up.

If you use a MRD tank for stronghold parties, your DPS will go way WAAAAYYYY up.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

It would be no surprise to see that publication render everything you said here incorrect about class actions post-1.20.

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There isn't anything "incorrect" about anything. This is just my analysis of what some of the current problems are, and how they could be fixed.

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Skill Changes -

Light Strike: Defense/EVA up, attack/crit down, lasts 2 minutes (1.5 min cooldown)
Flurry: Defense/EVA down, attack/crit up, lasts 2 minutes (1.5 min cooldown)

This is to incorporate the "stances" idea that they seemed to have abandoned. If you tank, you will use Light Strike, if you DD, you will use Flurry.

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by putting tp moves on a long cool down you have probably negated any dps benefit these skills have. Your tp getting moves are huge for dps in terms of extra dmg and tp building, it also allows you to make better use of skills that need specific conditions, like comrade in arms, murderous intent, dicerning eye, etc. Basically you cant increase the cool down of these skills without drastically reducing dps and usability of various skills.

But yeah, most of your post will probably need a rework when you see the new balance stuff. Even though your overall ideas may still hold up, the implementation and critiques could be very different.

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Originally Posted by Physic

by putting tp moves on a long cool down you have probably negated any dps benefit these skills have. Your tp getting moves are huge for dps in terms of extra dmg and tp building, it also allows you to make better use of skills that need specific conditions,

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You still have pummel.

Edit: I guess I could lower the cooldown on pummel slightly but it's already pretty fast at 30 seconds.

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There isn't anything "incorrect" about anything. This is just my analysis of what some of the current problems are, and how they could be fixed.

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The trouble is that we're between two systems.

What we have now are the remnants of the "design your own class" system we had at release. But with the class changes in 1.20 and the jobs release in 1.21, we'll see the new "defined role" system take shape.

That's why all of this is pointless, especially in light of tomorrow's info release.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

That's why all of this is pointless,

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I don't feel like my feedback as a player regarding class imbalance is pointless, but whatever. If the devs didn't want any feedback they wouldn't keep asking for it.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

You still have pummel.

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you need all three to use such skills effectively, just light strike alone would be a substantial loss in tp generation, 1/3rd less controllable tp generation.

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Originally Posted by Physic

you need all three to use such skills effectively, just light strike alone would be a substantial loss in tp generation, 1/3rd less controllable tp generation.

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OK then, I'll put Heavy Strike back in the game, and reduce the cooldown on Pummel to 15 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I don't feel like my feedback as a player regarding class imbalance is pointless, but whatever. If the devs didn't want any feedback they wouldn't keep asking for it.

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Well you don't really seem to know what you're talking about though.

From example: +200 enmity per use for multishot? Where did you even get this number from?

Just look at Materia, the highest tier gives +12 enmity, but a single ability should give more than 16 times that amount? The only way an Archet would lose hate is when their HP hits 0.

You're spouting suggestions for "balances" when you don't know how those mechanics work under the surface.

Sounds good which means most people on the forums will flame you for it.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Well you don't really seem to know what you're talking about though.

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lol

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

From example: +200 enmity per use for multishot? Where did you even get this number from?

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A single provoke does about 200 points worth of enmity, which is what nocking an arrow will do. This will add some kind of cost to using a skill as powerful as multishot. It will also give archers something to think about for hate management. There's a reason they have skills like quelling strike and subtle release, but if they can't do crazy damage like they used to do, there needs to be something that makes them consider the consequences of increasing their DPS.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Just look at Materia, the highest tier gives +12 enmity, but a single ability should give more than 16 times that amount? The only way an Archet would lose hate is when their HP hits 0.

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+enmity like on materia is not what I'm talking about at all. +enmity on materia acts like Intimidation, where it adds additional enmity onto every action you do. What I'm talking about with multishot is that for every arrow you nock, you generate 200 points of enmity, just as if you cured someone for 200 HP.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

You're spouting suggestions for "balances" when you don't know how those mechanics work under the surface.

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lol

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A single provoke does about 200 points worth of enmity

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And what's your source of information?

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

And what's your source of information?

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http://kanican.livejournal.com/54373.html

Oh, and I meant to say "taunt", not "Provoke". Provoke does more like 400 points of enmity.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

http://kanican.livejournal.com/54373.html

Oh, and I meant to say "taunt", not "Provoke". Provoke does more like 400 points of enmity.

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That'd be useful if it weren't for the fact that they changed battle algorithms in 1.19. A table from 1.18 is useless.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

That'd be useful if it weren't for the fact that they changed battle algorithms in 1.19. A table from 1.18 is useless.

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It's still more applicable than not, but that doesn't diminish my earlier point of needing an enmity cost for multishot that is roughly similar to using one taunt.

I'm hoping that the first jobs are one step in one direction, I agree that all classes should have two directions or specs if you will which they can go in.

Hopefully when they consider new jobs they will have something suiting each class which acts as an opposing role to the ones coming in 1.21.

That being said I'm happy we are getting jobs at all and they can't come soon enough.

Agree that they need to make GLA, PGL, ARC viable in end game and also hoping that blackmage will be pretty powerful as a DD.

The only job I'm worried about with the job system is ARC/BRD although buffs can be important they can also easily be skipped so unless they really bring some good buffs to the party they may find themselves on the side lines once again.

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Originally Posted by Rubicon

Sounds good which means most people on the forums will flame you for it.

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That's ok. Hamsters need to eat fire to live. Little known fact.

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Originally Posted by Rubicon

Sounds good which means most people on the forums will flame you for it.

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I agree lol. Good job Hamster :D

Hehehe, thanks :D

OP updated with some new additions, and typo corrections.

I didn't agree with most changes actually...pretty rare to see since your posts/suggestions are often good. ><

I agree with GLA, PGL and ARC general outlines...but that's it :/ IMO the changes you proposing doesn't seems to actually fix the aspects liseted at outline.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

I agree with GLA, PGL and ARC general outlines...but that's it :/ IMO the changes you proposing doesn't seems to actually fix the aspects liseted at outline.

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How so? The skill changes I listed allow for PGL and GLA to tank better as well as do more damage and provide better utility in unique ways that other classes can't in order to give them reasons to be in any given party.

The changes I made to ARC nullify a lot of the reasons why you don't want ARCs in an Ifrit party, and also increased its utility in DPS and support.

I really like how you list those things, but problem is they need to look at this from a different prospective classes are not it.
they need to make the monsters make more sense then plan what to do with the classes. I agree with most of what you said but it should be based on the monsters and not on the classes, and each class should be good at something and bad at something not less bad at something so the whole game can shine from having different classes. and those bad at something should be able to play but on different parts of the game, and make those monsters that they should excel on drop their items/equip whatever. but am mostly talking exp grinding here is a quote so I don't repeat what am saying.

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Originally Posted by Sheth

I have no idea what kind of changes they are planning, but I hope that they reflect them on the monsters too because they all die the same damn way. That's the definition of boredom. (am talking about exp grinding monsters so all monsters other than NMs and such) so the majority of them.

An example,
Make monsters for example hit hard but miss more kinda like MRD
so a MNK evasion tanking would make sense rathar than a GLD

and viceversa so a GLD would make more sense tanking than a MNK.

Make monsters hit fast so THM can make blind worth it and make the thing last longer

make monsters buff themselves so we can have dispel, it adds alot.

make monsters do shit that make sense to have a different camp based on what jobs are available in the party.

let monsters not link as much as they do now and if they do all party members should wipe, so we can play tactically rather than storm in and get as much kills for chains, so we can think oh it's fun and challenging playing this game and not think only about the exp.

and please make a death more meaningful so people think before they act, so death is a learning experience not just something that happens when HP reaches 0.

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Originally Posted by Sheth

I really like how you list those things, but problem is they need to look at this from a different prospective classes are not it.
they need to make the monsters make more sense then plan what to do with the classes. I agree with most of what you said but it should be based on the monsters and not on the classes, and each class should be good at something and bad at something not less bad at something so the whole game can shine from having different classes. and those bad at something should be able to play but on different parts of the game, and make those monsters that they should excel on drop their items/equip whatever. but am mostly talking exp grinding here is a quote so I don't repeat what am saying.

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monsters actually do have a lot of different things they do, people just ignore/outlevel/ avoid said monsters.

Essentially what they need to do is create content that has you dealing with various monsters at fixed levels. Because people will never fight a gnat if they can avoid it. People will never debuff or prevent a rat from doing defense up. people generally only use their real skills abilities and powers when forced to, grinding is about finding the easiest fights with the most exp rewards.

essentially the problem is grinding will almost always not be challenging,

Well, IMO your suggestions somewhat distort even more the classes.

The removal of sentinel is an example...it is a separated class to share "multiple tank classes" a 100% affinity performance of the basic tanking pack. By removing it, it would actually bring more issues than solutions. I actually would move some actions from GLA to SEN, like Obcess and Cover, that require positioning.

Removing the evade restriction of simian trash is another...it's the core concept of PGL being a retaliation class...if you remove this it also loses its identity. Instead of removing this, would be nice PGL having this increased, allowing a chaining of retaliatory actions, like having Haymaker forcing an opening so you could always follow it with another retaliatory WS, or having Follow Through and Pounce also causing openings so, even if it wasn't facing you, you could start a WS combo.

Another...multishot with provoke-like mechanics? That's not a good idea at all...if they don't want ARC to spam multishot then make more WS affected by if...like multishot adding extra hits to barrage or increasing the number of hits a monster bound by shadowbind could take before freeing from it. Maybe Puncture having a cone AoE increase based on number of nocked arrows.

I particularly liked how ARC and MRD were a basic attack-based class before...but seems like it wasn't FFXIish enough to stay ingame so the best would be adjust the mechanics to the current class concepts...if they want multishot as a buff instead of the main DPS option, so be it...expand the buff options for it.

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Originally Posted by Physic

monsters actually do have a lot of different things they do, people just ignore/outlevel/ avoid said monsters.

Essentially what they need to do is create content that has you dealing with various monsters at fixed levels. Because people will never fight a gnat if they can avoid it. People will never debuff or prevent a rat from doing defense up. people generally only use their real skills abilities and powers when forced to, grinding is about finding the easiest fights with the most exp rewards.

essentially the problem is grinding will almost always not be challenging,

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FFXI disagrees, leveling there was challenging and rewarding, where you would need a team effort to beat a rabbit. (before the introduction of wings of the goddess EP) it was tactical. That's what I would expect from an RPG game developed in Japan.

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Originally Posted by Sheth

FFXI disagrees, leveling there was challenging and rewarding, where you would need a team effort to beat a rabbit. (before the introduction of wings of the goddess EP) it was tactical. That's what I would expect from an RPG game developed in Japan.

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ffxi wasnt challenging in leveling. The major difference was that monsters had more HP. People rarely used any high end tactics on grind mobs, they cured whatever he did. Monsters in this game actually have more variety in types of attacks and abilities they use in general. In fact most of the non beast mobs have all the same skills a charachter does. There is a lot more positional effects as well, and avoidable aoe.

Thing is, people will pick the easiest path, which is tank and spank 9/10 times.

honestly ffxi one mob at a time got pretty dull.

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Originally Posted by Sheth

FFXI disagrees, leveling there was challenging and rewarding, where you would need a team effort to beat a rabbit. (before the introduction of wings of the goddess EP) it was tactical. That's what I would expect from an RPG game developed in Japan.

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"Challenging"? Colibri PT? Bones PT? Rampage PT? Imp PT?

Not really. IMO FFXI was never challenging other than while playing with lowbies...Past 35 it was very easy to grind...the challenging aspect was only for the abilities restrictions of the patheic mechanics of that game...like SAm having to stick with the lv1 WS (forgot the name) until 45 (if not mistaken) when you learn Tachi Jinpu just because the game wasn't able to offer you a single good thing during this period.

IMO the only "challenging" part of FFXI grind was to find enough BRDs...

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Originally Posted by Lienn

"Challenging"? Colibri PT? Bones PT? Rampage PT? Imp PT?

Not really. IMO FFXI was never challenging other than while playing with lowbies...Past 35 it was very easy to grind...the challenging aspect was only for the abilities restrictions of the patheic mechanics of that game...like SAm having to stick with the lv1 WS (forgot the name) until 45 (if not mistaken) when you learn Tachi Jinpu just because the game wasn't able to offer you a single good thing during this period.

IMO the only "challenging" part of FFXI grind was to find enough BRDs...

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Yes it's much more challenging with all of this you mentioned than what we have now, skip the last expansion packs I have no idea which one are you talking about because i quit the game when they introduced some new areas but am sure I was there when they had chains of promathia. Anyways, when I think about Crawler's Nest level area then forward till you reach 75, yes it was very challenging and fun, it takes a team effort. I don't know how they screwed it up because I wasn't there when they did but am guessing the wings of the goddess part where the TP thing you mentioned occurred ?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

OK then, I'll put Heavy Strike back in the game, and reduce the cooldown on Pummel to 15 seconds.

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Yooooooou.... I mean, SE took it out just because it was too soon? During the beta, Heavy Strike was there and some other abilities and action from other classes. I sure hope they reinstate them at later levels in the future!:o

I use "Pummel" all the time just because I don't have anything else to do or use (other than (VictimizeFTW"). I mean, pummel give you TP but not by much. It's just a "filler" action to gain TP and do some dmg.

I would rather it be tweeked and given its own animation other than punching oppose to actual pummeling! (am thinking pummeling from FFVI and how one of the agents from the Matrix, 2:30 used it) That's F!!!ken REAL Pummeling! High Fantasy my @$$ v.v get to work SE XD (kidding) =P







:cool:

:Beer: @2:30 min

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Originally Posted by Physic

ffxi wasnt challenging in leveling. The major difference was that monsters had more HP. People rarely used any high end tactics on grind mobs, they cured whatever he did. Monsters in this game actually have more variety in types of attacks and abilities they use in general. In fact most of the non beast mobs have all the same skills a charachter does. There is a lot more positional effects as well, and avoidable aoe.

Thing is, people will pick the easiest path, which is tank and spank 9/10 times.

honestly ffxi one mob at a time got pretty dull.

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Please give me examples because I can't find any, give me something in FFXIV that needs something like dispel or a good timed AM to finish half of the high HP the mob has...this game doesn't offer any challenge still. And not really I don't agree most monsters sucked in FFXI to begin with (keep in mind I have no idea in which phase you have been playing) mine was when the game had chains of promathia all monsters that we were lvling on were giving us a hard time because we needed to be focused the whole time while playing.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

The removal of sentinel is an example...it is a separated class to share "multiple tank classes" a 100% affinity performance of the basic tanking pack. By removing it, it would actually bring more issues than solutions. I actually would move some actions from GLA to SEN, like Obcess and Cover, that require positioning.

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How would removing the sentinel class and giving all its skills to gladiator be a problem? The only class that ever uses those skills is gladiator, anyway. The only reason "Sentinel" as a class exists is to give shield skills to gladiator. The current implementation is redundant and pointless. The only classes that even use shields are GLA, THM, and CJN, and the two mage classes are not tank classes. They should be given their own magic-based defensive shield skills.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Removing the evade restriction of simian trash is another...it's the core concept of PGL being a retaliation class...if you remove this it also loses its identity. Instead of removing this, would be nice PGL having this increased, allowing a chaining of retaliatory actions, like having Haymaker forcing an opening so you could always follow it with another retaliatory WS, or having Follow Through and Pounce also causing openings so, even if it wasn't facing you, you could start a WS combo.

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The evade restriction might be the core concept of PGL being a retaliation class, but in execution, it fails miserably. It complicates the PGL tank role and diminishes the PGL DD role, since you can't use Simian Thrash when you're DDing at all.

No one ever plays PGL with a retaliation identity because it just doesn't work currently.

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Originally Posted by Lienn

Another...multishot with provoke-like mechanics? That's not a good idea at all...if they don't want ARC to spam multishot then make more WS affected by if...like multishot adding extra hits to barrage or increasing the number of hits a monster bound by shadowbind could take before freeing from it. Maybe Puncture having a cone AoE increase based on number of nocked arrows.

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The goal of my version of multishot isn't to give archer a provoke. It's to give the move a cost so that the archer needs to be aware of when is the right time to use it. Since the move generates hate, you can't use it at the beginning of a pull. You have to pre-nock arrows before a fight, or nock arrows only after the tank has secured hate.

Multishot has its own identity aside from weaponskills and is what makes the archer class unique and special. It should be kept in the realm of normal attacks.


I'm still not sure how you are getting the impression that my skill changes don't align with the outline. Do they not make GLA and PGL better DDs and tanks? Do they not make archer a better DD?

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Originally Posted by Sheth

Yes it's much more challenging with all of this you mentioned than what we have now, skip the last expansion packs I have no idea which one are you talking about because i quit the game when they introduced some new areas but am sure I was there when they had chains of promathia. Anyways, when I think about Crawler's Nest level area then forward till you reach 75, yes it was very challenging and fun, it takes a team effort. I don't know how they screwed it up because I wasn't there when they did but am guessing the wings of the goddess part where the TP thing you mentioned occurred ?

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Nah...bones and rampage PTs happened since Rise of Zilart (NA PS2 release)...the only difference between before and now was the DD type. I don't call challenging a game where the healer can fall asleep, wake an hour later an no one even noticed you were sleeping. It's like i said...FFXI only was challenging 35-...but also because you didn't had good abilities still (they purposely put them 37+ for SJ nerf).

But still, the challenging monsters were always avoided, just like Physics said...in FFXI you had leeches, sheeps, lizards...and they all often ignored exactly because they could offer a challenging battle...it was like goblin, crawlers, worm or crab 1-70 there, then moving to one of the party setups i previously said.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

How would removing the sentinel class and giving all its skills to gladiator be a problem? The only class that ever uses those skills is gladiator, anyway. The only reason "Sentinel" as a class exists is to give shield skills to gladiator. The current implementation is redundant and pointless. The only classes that even use shields are GLA, THM, and CJN, and the two mage classes are not tank classes. They should be given their own magic-based defensive shield skills.

You forgeting this game has 2 tank classes that can use shield. THM does is a tank class (or at least was until the dev team ignorance mess it). It has all aspects a tank class need and, just like ARC, was just "too good" on its role so they nerfed it in a way it lost its characteristics.

The evade restriction might be the core concept of PGL being a retaliation class, but in execution, it fails miserably. It complicates the PGL tank role and diminishes the PGL DD role, since you can't use Simian Thrash when you're DDing at all.

No one ever plays PGL with a retaliation identity because it just doesn't work currently.

PGL worked perfectly until 1.18. Just like GLA...they both could do both DD and tank roles perfectly, without losing their concepts. Again, shame on dev team.

The goal of my version of multishot isn't to give archer a provoke. It's to give the move a cost so that the archer needs to be aware of when is the right time to use it. Since the move generates hate, you can't use it at the beginning of a pull. You have to pre-nock arrows before a fight, or nock arrows only after the tank has secured hate.

Multishot has its own identity aside from weaponskills and is what makes the archer class unique and special. It should be kept in the realm of normal attacks.

The thing about multishot is that it's actually meaningless righ now. It doesn't increase much the damage, it doesn't generate extra TP...if it was to generate enmity even to a provoke then it should become cross class so tanks couls start nocking throwing weapons to use the enmity. =P Before it generated a damage spike followed by an enmity spike...with your suggestion we would have just the enmity spike.

I'm still not sure how you are getting the impression that my skill changes don't align with the outline. Do they not make GLA and PGL better DDs and tanks? Do they not make archer a better DD?

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I'm not saying your suggestions aren't making the classes stronger...but a better parse result doesn't make the class better...and when you give up from the core concepts to just add better numbers you end just like PGL is now...it was extremely fun to play before 1.18...right now it might be way easier to play and stronger...but it's not better than the original class because it lacks in the main aspect a game must have...fun.

Another example is MRD. The current MRD would beat the hell out of the original MRD performance-wise...still, it's not better than the original one since it's boring as hell to play nowadays.

I feel like marauder and gladiator are fairly evenly matched pertaining to tanking. This is only based off of NM fights and the current Primal fight, but I see it like this:

Marauder has more DPS (particularly AOE), but Gladiator has more hp + def (particularly good solo boss tanking). As far as enmity goes, marauder deals damage and gladiator has abilities to sustain enmity. Typically, I start to feel like I have to heal marauder more than gladiator, but in the end the opponent's hp most likely is going down more quickly as well.

On another topic, surprisingly, I was starting to feel classes were more balanced with recent patches. People seem to think archer was severly nerfed, but I also think players haven't fully realized archers potential and how to use archer now. (Try some Dex and remember you have the highest MP pool of all the dps classes.) Everyone thinks Marauder is now overpowered, when in reality they're just particularly good at doing aoe damage. Which I feel marauders always should have been. Pugilists got a big boost with misses now counting as evades for things like Simian Thrash and are particularly good at keeping themselves alive. And we're all aware of the lancer love. =p

Honestly, the only classes that feel particularly muddled right now are the mage ones. Other than conjurer having better heals/raises and thaumaturge having a bit more mp and magical damage, most of their abilities are interchangeable, as are their roles in combat. Since there are only two mage classes currently, they should have more prominently defined positions in combat, which I'm sure we will see in the upcoming patch.

Overall, in my LS we use every single class there is because they are all potentially good for most end-game events. I understand they want to streamline classes more and our input is relatively valuable, but I sort of feel the thoughts of a single person (including my own) are not going to be accurate for an entire player base. I feel like the dev team should put a lot of thought into how they want to change the classes further, and listen to player input, however...

They are developers for a reason. I'd like to see them actually make some of these changes in regards to their own thoughts on how the classes should be.

P.S. Emnity x Multishot = scary idea imo

Pugilist does some of the most damage on Ifrit (More than all the lancers I've played with)
Lancers are great
Pugilist is a lot of fun to play, deals lots of damage, and is a very good self-sustaining class
Marauder is a lot of fun to play, a good tank, and the best aoe!
Gladiator's shield abilities used to be completely overpowered =p
Gladiators have a better MP pool than MRD, more DEF, and more HP
Animation lock is the enemy of every class, but most of all archer.
Archers + Dex = nice! (And they also have a large MP pool as well!)

Mages are the most muddled classes at this time, but the increase in how much HP one can heal and the usefulness of some forgotten spells was well-received in my opinion in the latest patches.
(And though the MP reduction and MP consumption increase was difficult to adjust to, it's more fun to overcome such obstacles when playing mage classes now. It's challenging which is good. <3)