Confusion: Archer to Bard? Where is the Ranger Job?

I just found out that the progression of classes will see Archers utilizing the Bard job. I'm not sure I understand why this is the case. Does some other company own some sort of "Ranger class" trademark?

power rangers lmao

BRD is getting a bow/harp hybrid weapon, so they can shoot things and support the party with songs.

It might make more sense when we get more info on the class changes. 1.19 gave ARC fairly good PIE and MND so I'm wondering if it will get more options for buffing/debuffing through weaponskills instead of dealing damage, and Bard would probably focus on that.

figuring brd's main fun/time constraint was in pulling in ffxi, without that they would of really had nothing so it kinda makes sense that they want to add some real dmg to this class this time around along with there support roll. maybe the musketeer will be the non support ranged attack mele later on when they add it in after jobs.

Thing is people are looking at bard like its come from FF11, this bard is more like you would expect to find in Dragon Quest I'm guessing.

A Ranged DPSer that supports his party with buffs, I imagine you can play archer similarly to how you do now you may need to throw some party buffs out there aswell though.

Hopefully in time we will get multiple Jobs for all classes and ranger will be one of them.

Rng should be a job in the future, but for now it looks like you are stuck with Brd.

I believe the direction to make Arc into BRD (which looks like it still has a bow), is that the game has too many DoW, and although BRD will still be attached to DoW, it will be a gray area of buffs and attack.

Musketeer class is planned, surely RNG could become an adv job of that in the future.

And in general RPG settings BRD can be a great DD with differnating levels of support abilites/spells, just cause it was a "weak" support only type class in XI doesn't make that true for its XIV version.

How I envision a typical RPG Bard; its a class that can enter in meele with daggers, swords or maces, shoot from distance with a gun or crossbow, help boost party morale, giving buffs with songs of valor and bravery as the same time enfeebling the monster with entrancing meloies.

I don't know exactly how is going to be the Job system. I suppose the Job will be a sort of role of the class in the party (Yoshi called it Specialization) .
ATM they're going to introduce only a job per class, however class Archer ==means==> Uses Bow Job => is how to use the bow
Archer may be Ranger in the future playng a high range DD, bard will a support/buffer/debuff etc.
So don't worry, bard will be the first of a list of specializations for Bowsman class

You don't have to be a Bard in all parties. It's simply an add on to Archer that gives you some new skills and I think it prevents you from using certain ones. You don't HAVE to be them in a party, it just gives you a certain job to do outside of Archer.

Just speculation.

Barcher looks great, I'm gonna play that all day. Bard in FFXI was pretty boring, but now that I'll be able to DD when I'm not buffing, it seems pretty cool.

Cool, they killed my favorite type of class GG.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

You don't have to be a Bard in all parties. It's simply an add on to Archer that gives you some new skills and I think it prevents you from using certain ones. You don't HAVE to be them in a party, it just gives you a certain job to do outside of Archer.

Just speculation.

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So why nerf their damage so much?

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Originally Posted by Lavani

Cool, they killed my favorite type of class GG.

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It's likely that neither Archer nor Bard would have fared well in XIV alone. - However, since I'm not the type of person to make a claim and not back it up, a bit of a history lesson and update on MMO building.

Ranged DPS is hard to fit into modern MMO mechanics, where classes have more responsibilities than they used to. In early MMOs, especially over dial-up, battle was basic, laggy, and slow - every class's job was simple. It had to be. Either take damage, do damage, make people take less or do more damage, or heal people who are taking damage. Today, that's not the case. Every job has more responsibilities. Hate rotations, skillchains, snap judgment on single-target heals, timing on "support" abilities - but ranged DPS remains largely unaltered. Stand back, hit hard, don't get yourself killed. While every other job gets more complex, ranged DPS still just stands off to the side and tries to not get hate. This can't continue to be the case; it's not fair, it's not balanced, and it throws the responsibility scale way off.

This is related to, but the flip-side of, the problem that plagues non-damage support classes such as Bard. Jobs that DPS but have support abilities (crowd control, hate management, acute cures, etc.) fare better now than ever - we've brought in the mechanics of split-second timing, positioning, etc. However, non-damage support faces problems from two directions: One, like Archer, it's hard to expand its responsibilities without expanding its capabilities, non-damage support classes still just buff and run (sometimes pulling, but in XIV there really isn't much "pulling"). In order to remain relevant, these classes have to take part in battle to a more complex degree.

Most importantly, in FFXIV, where every class should be able to hold its own solo; at the very least, either the starter class, or the job it evolves into, need to be combat capable. Support-to-Support class-to-job evolution would leave the player helpless to do anything alone.

The solution here, as far as SE is concerned, was to combine the responsibilities of these two jobs, ensuring their continued relevance in the modern MMO age. I think it's a brilliant idea; the job sounds fast-paced, multi-faceted, fun as hell, and their concept art is BEYOND GORGEOUS.

I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Archers in this game, even now, rush into battle, do damage willynilly until the dot goes red, and then just stand there until it goes away. When someone runs off without paying attention and gets aggro? it's usually an archer. When someone's not paying attention and takes hate? It's usually an archer. A little more responsibility, ironically, isn't going to get them (or me) killed.

Nope, supporting is not my cup of tea, and now i'm forced into it. I wouldn't mind improving the raid DPS as long as I don't lose DPS for having those spells or be forced into a stupid song rotation so everyone else can DPS. As of right now, archers dps is terrible, and with them getting support spells, they will be forced to do just sing.

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Originally Posted by Lavani

Nope, supporting is not my cup of tea, and now i'm forced into it. I wouldn't mind improving the raid DPS as long as I don't lose DPS for having those spells or be forced into a stupid song rotation so everyone else can DPS. As of right now, archers dps is terrible, and with them getting support spells, they will be forced to do just sing.

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Chances are that Archer's base damage is dropping because damage buffs will be among the job form's repertoire of songs. Like I said above, in a fast-paced battle, too much of either job's time is spent going back and forth between repeating the same type of thing, or doing no things. Switching back and forth between damaging until you're in danger, and then hitting Chameleon and rebuffing while you cool down will probably go smoothly and look bad-ass.

I'd say to wait and try it before you preemptively go all (no offense) cranky child with a slow-to-warm-up temperament on it. If you still think it sucks, level MRD. Warrior is probably the only job who will never have more responsibilities other than, "Keep kicking that ass."

You'll just see responsibilities like:

• "Kick more ass at the appropriate time."
• "Kick less for a second so I can get hate back."
• "Maybe kick some ass positioning yourself from this angle for a minute."
• "Keep kicking ass, but tank this for a second."
• "Quick, kick more ass than usual before it kills us."
• "Kick a lot of ass from behind me so the mob thinks I did it."

A battle Bard would actually be pretty fun, a couple other select MMO's have them and they end up being a great support DD if this is anything like those you won't be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Lavani

Nope, supporting is not my cup of tea, and now i'm forced into it. I wouldn't mind improving the raid DPS as long as I don't lose DPS for having those spells or be forced into a stupid song rotation so everyone else can DPS. As of right now, archers dps is terrible, and with them getting support spells, they will be forced to do just sing.

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So, wait, you're specifically saying that your dps is more important than the overall raid dps? That's. . . outstanding. . .

I wonder if when they implement musketeer we can switch, or if we can get both jobs cause it will be quest based.

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Originally Posted by Skuld

I wonder if when they implement musketeer we can switch, or if we can get both jobs cause it will be quest based.

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My bet is that Musketeer will evolve into Corsair.

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Originally Posted by Choyi

And in general RPG settings BRD can be a great DD with differnating levels of support abilites/spells, just cause it was a "weak" support only type class in XI doesn't make that true for its XIV version.

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Did you just call BRD weak in FFXI? You know that BRD was the most sought after jobs for years in FFXI, it was a very busy and important job because the support was always good. After what the PT members wanted you could basically give then just about any status benefits. BRD was one of the best job additions in terms of balance, what you refer to as it beaing "weak" was the power to strengthen just about anyone, including itself.

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Originally Posted by Reliquia

Did you just call BRD weak in FFXI? You know that BRD was the most sought after jobs for years in FFXI, it was a very busy and important job because the support was always good. After what the PT members wanted you could basically give then just about any status benefits. BRD was one of the best job additions in terms of balance, what you refer to as it beaing "weak" was the power to strengthen just about anyone, including itself.

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Remember "Good DD" doesn't mean "In Demand Job." Sure, BRDs were highly sought jobs... but stick one alone in a room with a Gigas and ... well... a few notes won't be the only thing that end up flat.

That was part of my point above; BRD can't survive in XIV on its own merits.

I do believe that the ARC class can join the job party as range attack, as Bard clearly is a support type. So imo as a ARC, you can choose to play as a range DD or you can choose to be a party buffer

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

stuff

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Agreed.
Plus in MMOs like WoW, the same is said for Hunter.
*Insert other MMO*
I hate how little responsibility DDs have in most MMOs.
Something goes wrong, (Clearly DDs fault) the WHOLE group either blames the healer or tank.

I do agree BRD is a good fix to ARC, so as to avoid mechanics where people outside of AoEs are the only desired DDs. (All bosses AoE now adays, its the only way programmers know how to make hard fights.)

BUT i also think it was bad for SE to drop such a surprise on people like that.Similar with CNJ going full blown healer, and THM going full blown DD (for those who wanted the opposite, back when it was possible.)

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Remember "Good DD" doesn't mean "In Demand Job." Sure, BRDs were highly sought jobs... but stick one alone in a room with a Gigas and ... well... a few notes won't be the only thing that end up flat.

That was part of my point above; BRD can't survive in XIV on its own merits.

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That might be true, but that's the way they had to balance the job. Basically you knew the cons and pros of the job before accepting it, BRD was by most lvled a second job though, because of the demand and the benefits. But my point was really that being a BRD was never a bad thing in FFXI, the pros far outweighed the cons.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

I do believe that the ARC class can join the job party as range attack, as Bard clearly is a support type. So imo as a ARC, you can choose to play as a range DD or you can choose to be a party buffer

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How dare you insert sound logic in a forum nearly devoid of such?

To quote myself from the Dragoon/wyvern thread:



I think the real problem is ... the people want to have the choice to stick to their playstyle of the original class.. having for now just one job option (in the future there are planned at least 2 job choices for each class)
is the most problem. so its too early to implement hybrids like dragoon + wyvern pet... like its too early for the barde. people who played the lancer want to stick to the pure wielding polearm class, not having a pet.


and archers for example want to stick to their (just shooting with bow "damage dealer role") playstyle, not having the supporter role as a barde.



Thats the really most problem i think... they should have first added jobs for those classes like (dont know) "lancemaster" for lancer (which only wields poles thats it) and for archer for example thief (specified in bows/daggers/ and critical attack). giving the archer the option also to fight in melee like the thief in FFXI with sneak attacks.. and also gaining new bow abillities like (poisoning arrow, hawk eye) etc.


AND THEN later on with 2.0. implementing second jobs like dragoon+wyvern and barde for archer.
that would have been the better choice.


DRG/BRD/SUM only came after "Chains Of Promathia" which has been the 2. addon of FFXI.
for me its like -> pre 2.0. its like "Rise of the Zilart" Addon -> after 2.0. "Chains of Promathia".
CoP was when i started in FFXI
CoP was the first addon which made me interested in playing FFXI (all the interesting classes etc)
like it will be in 2.0.


but i think its, in view to FFXI, a really good decision to give the barde job to a ranged damage dealer.Why? because the barde in FFXI had not that much to do except standing there and "rebuffing" their songs. sometimes they healed a bit when they had whm as a subjob (but they werent that good ad it).
Now in FFXIV the bard has more to do than just rebuffing their group.
buffing will be only that what they'll do besides attacking with their bow.
and the "archer" role receives much more complexity in battle with this. AND archer will become more popular in group of course... so it isnt a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Skuld

I wonder if when they implement musketeer we can switch

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Of course you can. Just equip a gun.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Remember "Good DD" doesn't mean "In Demand Job." Sure, BRDs were highly sought jobs... but stick one alone in a room with a Gigas and ... well... a few notes won't be the only thing that end up flat.

That was part of my point above; BRD can't survive in XIV on its own merits.

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this is not going to be a problem for most ppl. as job's are for party's. if you find yourself alone in a room full of gigas your in the wrong place. i can see the bard being in demand. haste me, slow the mob, increase my attack power, decrease the omob's defence. woot that NM was like a normal mob. right where is ifrit hiding

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Chances are that Archer's base damage is dropping because damage buffs will be among the job form's repertoire of songs. Like I said above, in a fast-paced battle, too much of either job's time is spent going back and forth between repeating the same type of thing, or doing no things. Switching back and forth between damaging until you're in danger, and then hitting Chameleon and rebuffing while you cool down will probably go smoothly and look bad-ass.

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First of all, I don't enjoy melee classes, and I don't enjoy mage dps. I want a ranged physical damage dealer and bard isnt it.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

So, wait, you're specifically saying that your dps is more important than the overall raid dps? That's. . . outstanding. . .

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I'm specifically saying that my dps should be on par with that of other DPS.

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Originally Posted by Shneibel

I do believe that the ARC class can join the job party as range attack, as Bard clearly is a support type. So imo as a ARC, you can choose to play as a range DD or you can choose to be a party buffer

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Yes, you can still be an ARC in parties, and unless they buff the damage to be on par with every other DD, there is no point to bring the ARC when you can bring a LNC.

So unless they make BRD a competitive DD while allowing them to Buff the raid and remain competitive then it's def ruined my fave type of character.

they can fix the ARC dmg by inrease the bow dmg, low the dmg from harp-bow, they are different wep after all

BRD ftw! If you don't like it just don't play it? lol

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Originally Posted by Lavani

I'm specifically saying that my dps should be on par with that of other DPS.

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Okay, that's not really how it read at first, but that's a reasonable statement. It sounded like you were saying, "Screw buffing the other guys, I'm too busy killing things," but if you were actually going for, "Hey, SE, go ahead and give us the buffs, but please don't put in a huge gap between the DPS of various (DPS) jobs to do it," then, yeah, I can agree to that.

Realistically, the only way BRD is going to make it into groups is if (BRD Personal DPS) + (DPS from BRD buffs) > (DPS of the top DD of the month). Or, y'know, if it's close enough that the ability to fight from range and not take damage makes up for it, but we've already been through that FotM. . .

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

How dare you insert sound logic in a forum nearly devoid of such?

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Actually, If they already do some of the lowest damage in the game, and jobs will ENHANCE DDs offense, while lowering their defense, (Sticking to a single role for groups, and going back to classes for solo ability.) then they will only be left FURTHER behind in damage, and will probably do LESS dmg as ARC then as BRD. (Pure guess, but I'm fairly sure it's a safe guess.)

If this was true, I would sorta be happy. (and disappointed at the same time, for conflicting PoV in this matter.)

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Originally Posted by Lavani

First of all, I don't enjoy melee classes, and I don't enjoy mage dps. I want a ranged physical damage dealer and bard isnt it.

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This is exactly where I explain my issues with certain classes, and why games should have more than 3 classes. (aka only 1 for tank, dd, and healer)

In a properly built game, different classes offer different play styles, so that maybe someone who normally would LIKE to tank, but hasn't found the mechanics fun, could find it fun in a class combination that is out of the normal play style, or similar to another class.
Aka mage tank, etc.

We have all seen the DD in armor tanks, the Shield tanks, and evasion tanks.
FFXI sort of saw every class tank, with the proper set ups, but it took forever, and wasn't something you get to do at every level along the way.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Okay, that's not really how it read at first, but that's a reasonable statement. It sounded like you were saying, "Screw buffing the other guys, I'm too busy killing things," but if you were actually going for, "Hey, SE, go ahead and give us the buffs, but please don't put in a huge gap between the DPS of various (DPS) jobs to do it," then, yeah, I can agree to that.

Realistically, the only way BRD is going to make it into groups is if (BRD Personal DPS) + (DPS from BRD buffs) > (DPS of the top DD of the month). Or, y'know, if it's close enough that the ability to fight from range and not take damage makes up for it, but we've already been through that FotM. . .

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The problem is, most parser programs/Damage meters, don't read the "added damage" the other DDs get, as the BUFFERS damage.

It's a mix of both, but in the end, Damage meters SHOULD calculate the "Buff adds 5% more dmg to every attack" as, this player did 100 dmg, so he actually did 95~ish, and 5~ish was yours. (Too lazy to do the actual math.)
So that in the end, the added dmg, + your dmg, is equal to having a 'full DD' in that slot.
Which would require doing less damage than the other DDs (Which actually isn't) In the case of FFXI BRD, you technically did MORE dmg than another DD, who could have been in your spot.

Of course I'm against raising main stats, like accuracy, attack, defense etc. because of: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post422308

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Originally Posted by FilthyDisco

BRD ftw! If you don't like it just don't play it? lol

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Bard is a nice class yes...but I think the thread is about where is the Ranger DD class if this one is moving towards support...Bard and Archer are completely different classes usually :/ In most other MMO rangers are powerful DD that shoot, kite, stun and what not. Bard support with songs is the last thing I would imagine when playing a ranged DD class heh. If I wanna play support I do not think of ranger...

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

Bard is a nice class yes...but I think the thread is about where is the Ranger DD class if this one is moving towards support...Bard and Archer are completely different classes usually :/ In most other MMO rangers are powerful DD that shoot, kite, stun and what not. Bard support with songs is the last thing I would imagine when playing a ranged DD class heh. If I wanna play support I do not think of ranger...

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archers got nerfed coz they were far to powerful. any1 that don't think they were can't have noticed that 2 out of 3 ppl had a bow on their back. so if they nerfed archer coz it was to powerful, there not likely to make a super powered ranger are they

balance is why you are not getting a ranger

They could still give us a ranger type class without making it OP...I have played so many MMO and I usually pick Bow class. I have never found to to be extremely OP (In other MMO, like Lineage II, Aion)

Instead of just nerfing a class and being done with it I wish they could try to balance it. I always felt too that Ranger type classes were strong DD because we have to buy our ammo or make it. We don't just get a sword or axe that we bought one time and get to do good damage for free :)

I also understand the game is changing but when it first came out it was advertising an archer ranged DD type class...so hopefully they will figure out a way to give us that type of class..but I won't hold my breath.

But yeah I see your point >.<

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

The problem is, most parser programs/Damage meters, don't read the "added damage" the other DDs get, as the BUFFERS damage.

It's a mix of both, but in the end, Damage meters SHOULD calculate the "Buff adds 5% more dmg to every attack" as, this player did 100 dmg, so he actually did 95~ish, and 5~ish was yours. (Too lazy to do the actual math.)
So that in the end, the added dmg, + your dmg, is equal to having a 'full DD' in that slot.
Which would require doing less damage than the other DDs (Which actually isn't) In the case of FFXI BRD, you technically did MORE dmg than another DD, who could have been in your spot.

Of course I'm against raising main stats, like accuracy, attack, defense etc. because of: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post422308

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Granted, and this is something of a known issue of parsers. However, it can be worked around by noting a player's DPS in a run without buffs, then noting the change in a second run with buffs (obviously, you'd want more than one run each). I mean, in other situations, this is exactly how you'd test things, no?

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Originally Posted by Lavani

First of all, I don't enjoy melee classes, and I don't enjoy mage dps. I want a ranged physical damage dealer and bard isnt it.

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Jobs are not manditory. You are perfectly entitled to maintain the archer class as a ranged DPS. Once they add stat realotment back. You can scale down all that PIE and MND and add it to your str/dex and hopefully do go to town on some mobs.

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Originally Posted by grandm

archers got nerfed coz they were far to powerful. any1 that don't think they were can't have noticed that 2 out of 3 ppl had a bow on their back. so if they nerfed archer coz it was to powerful, there not likely to make a super powered ranger are they

balance is why you are not getting a ranger

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This has to be by far, the worst sense of balance I have ever read. A game is not balanced because class "A" is stronger than class "B" and "C" for X amount of time, and then nerf class "A" so much that they are no longer viable.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Jobs are not manditory. You are perfectly entitled to maintain the archer class as a ranged DPS. Once they add stat realotment back. You can scale down all that PIE and MND and add it to your str/dex and hopefully do go to town on some mobs.

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As long as ARC is a competitive source of damage with those changes then yeah, I can live with playing my ARC :D. It would be nice to get an advanced job for that type of play style though.