I was thinking something along the lines of a scoreboard/statistics sheet etc at the end of a battle that detailed info such as....
a)How many times you generated aggro, and with what action
b)who you took it from
c)who reclaimed aggro from you, and with what action
d)the actions you did that consistently produced the most emnity
e)enmity numbers would be displayed for every action that was taken to see exactly how the party enmity was from start to finish, and you could see who was close to taking/losing enmity
To be honest it would be better if they had a system where the live mechanic was clearer for these people who just obviously ignore it....maybe like a big red flashing message..."you are about to take aggro!" or "Everyone else is attacking enemy 1 except you!".
Personally I think it's not hard to follow, and that this new system is for babies but I'm tired of the amount of people on DF who obviously don't keep an eye on the threat generation their actions are causing (a substantial % even if it's a minority. Extremist religious factions are a minority but doesn't mean it's not a problem and annoying) and need to be treated as such
People who ignore their threat guage
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04-16-2016, 10:03 PMNezkeys79People who ignore their threat guage
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04-16-2016, 11:31 PMJamillion
There are very few times that someone taking aggro is not directly caused by your own failure as a tank. If it's enough of an issue to you to cause you to hatch this plan the problem is most likely you. If DPS isn't going out of their way to suck and you lose aggro they intend to tank it until it dies since you couldn't. If one DPS is attacking an off target and you can't hold hate you need to MARK your target (no, no one is going to target you to see what your target is, that's stupid and you should be rotating your combos anyway). Otherwise it's expected you'll be able to do your job adequately. If you mark and they ignore it, screw em'.
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04-16-2016, 11:33 PMLunaxiaOption B: Ignore the DPS that keeps attacking a different target to the rest of the party and let the monster eat its face off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezkeys79
They soon learn. -
04-16-2016, 11:39 PMJamillionThat's called being a crappy tank. I main Warrior and I despise tanks that fail the job they queued for then act like it's not their fault. Mark your targets if you can't hold AOE hate, no one wants to play the guessing game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
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04-16-2016, 11:45 PMLunaxiaNo. I am not there to hold their hand and play mother. I can hold hate just fine if I wanted to, but if they see me and the other DPS/ healer attacking the same target and consistently go after another, eventually I'm just going to leave them to it. DPS have one job and that is to attack, and if they're so inept they can't even focus their attacks on the right monster then I'm not going to cover for them. Terrible DPS get enough of a free pass in this game as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamillion
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04-16-2016, 11:49 PMJamillionYour job is to have everything hitting you in the face at all times. If you fail at that AND fail at calling a kill order then stop tanking. Literally the only time I've ever had an issue like that is tanking for my FC leader who regularly does 1800 DPS single target since I have to focus her target heavily. And yes, bad DPS DO get enough of a free pass, which is why it should be trivial to hold hate. Now I will say if it's a large pull and one suicidal DPS is only using single target then fine, let it go, but that doesn't seem to be the OPs case going through his forum history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
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04-17-2016, 12:39 AMMagiusNecros
Honestly every player should be watching their enmity bars. Especially if a tank is undergeared.
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04-17-2016, 08:14 AMNezkeys79replyYou sound like a bandwagoner that adopts the cancerous mentality of some people in DF. Your attitude is that it's ludicrous to suggest the healer or dps may be at fault and automatically start with "you're a failure" or "you can't tank" or "do your job adequately" or "you should be rotating your combos" (which I do btw). Bad players blame tanks for everything. I'm not saying there aren't bad tanks just that the minority of these retard button mashers is enough % to be cancerous and annoyingQuote:
Originally Posted by Jamillion
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04-17-2016, 08:22 AMStouterTaruThe vast majority of dps that don't watch their hate do crap dps anyway, so you shouldn't have issues holding hate over them. That is why the tank is normally and often fairly blamed for being bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezkeys79
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04-17-2016, 09:03 AMfm_fenrirQualifying statement: I play all three tank classes, and noted soft-tank DRG. Not holding threat as a tank is 100% the tank's fault, because they have so many tools to generate and maintain it. You, as the tank, have enough options that even if you miss a mob outright during a pull, you can peel it right off the DPS that's attacking it and bring it back to you; if you can't manage that, then there's something you should know, and you might want to take a seat for this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezkeys79
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04-18-2016, 12:40 AMNezkeys79Um when it's a dps who does good damage but still button mashes it's a problem. Plus in certain early dungeons where you only have flash+2 hit combo on gld/pld it turns into a yo yo war of enmity against some dps while you are waiting for hit 2 of your combo and/or flash to be up (I've tested this extensively by hawkeyeing the enmity guage after every action I do and the dps does, and there is literally nothing more optimal you can do than using 2 hit combo and/or flash spam)Quote:
Originally Posted by StouterTaru
For example:
Fast Blade>Savage Blade(you're top)
Fire(dps is top)
Fast Blade(dps still top)
Fire(dps still top)
Savage Blade and Flash (you're top)
Fire (dps is top again)
In this scenario there is literally fuck all you can do but watch the yo yo. The only thing that will work is if the dps swaps targets or just stops attacking periodically. Stop acting like enmity is always on the tank 100% in any dungeon and if it comes off them at any time in any dungeon (particularly a low level one) they are a shit tank who fails at their job. It's a cancerous unrealistic notion that other bad players use to cover up when they play bad. Everyone should learn how to control their own threat not just the tank -
04-18-2016, 12:42 AMKabooaEarly levels, anyone can tank. Losing threat there is rarely an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezkeys79
Max levels, you have every single tool you need to hold threat unless you are severely outgeared. In that case, odds are the DPS pulling off you are geared enough to act as pseduo-tanks, so it's rarely an issue there.
In short: Calm your tits. -
04-18-2016, 01:12 AMNezkeys79Meh I always have the strongest gear for my level before joining an instance. Holding hate at 50+ is a joke and the amount of times you will lose hate are very small, and IF you do you will always reclaim it instantly with provoke+scorn+halone on top of the shite you get in the lower dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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04-18-2016, 09:22 AMRagologyThere are many times when I don't want to waste a combo finisher on a mob with low health and so I switch targets. Usually though when I'm attacking a target that the tank isn't, its because I see it as more of a threat. Like Exploding enemies, bee that use final sting or mobs with AOE attacks that I can stun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
For the times that I'm attacking the wrong mob because I'm being tunnel visioned, I try to switch to the Tanks target but the tank, being a responsible player, switches to the target I was just attacking and so the two of us are on different targets again. We both wait to see if the other will switch targets and then we both switch at once. Makes it look like I'm trying to avoid the tank when I'm actually trying to sync up with them. -
04-18-2016, 09:44 AMLunaxiaI was talking about trash mobs where it's very obvious who is attacking what, but one of the DPS still fixates on an entirely different target several feet away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragology
Whether it makes me a "crappy" tank or not, I'm not going out of my way to rescue them when they're not even bothering to do their job right. The Hall of the Novice even teaches about this now. -
04-18-2016, 09:46 AMJamillionIf it's large enough percentage to warrant all of the posts you make about it then the problem is almost certainly you. I'm aware there are crap players in every role. I see them every day. I've been blamed for pulling too big by DPS that I've out DPS'd in Defiance. Anyway, I'm sticking by what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezkeys79
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04-18-2016, 09:57 AMNezkeys79You know...I was interested as to what the hall of novice teaches for healing and dps, because if the extent of the learning is "just keep them alive" meh, or for the dps "use all your strongest attacks whenever it's your job to do as much damage as possible at any given time",,,,meh again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
I'll have to check them both out I guess hopefully they have some sound advice on there -
04-18-2016, 10:00 AMNezkeys79And I'm sticking to what I said about you too, because your in your last reply you just displayed the same condescending attitude. You can't defend a player who does an action on the tank or the mob while they are running in to pull and shield lob hasn't even popped up. And that's only one of the retarded things I'm talking about. I can't believe you are still taking this stance that healers and dps are never wrong when it comes to enmity. Also, here's an analogy for you concerning your percentages comment....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamillion
Extremist religious fanatics make up a small minority of the worlds population...doesn't mean it's not a problem and people won't rant about it -
04-18-2016, 10:20 AMLunaxiaI did HotN on my alt for the gear, it was a while ago now so I can't remember everything but two things I distinctly recall them teaching you is a) avoid AoEs (lol) and b) attack the same target the tank is focusing on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezkeys79
It's always a WAR...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamillion
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04-19-2016, 12:41 AMNezkeys79replyHmm so sounds like nothing about enmity there then. maybe they should do this...let them start and then if they do anything early have a message pop up saying "seven hells! you attracted attention because you was the first person to take action on the enemy. wait for the tank and watch your enmity bar or else the mobs will turn on you" or something lol. There should also be something in there abut if they do get aggro a message saying "run towards the tank because pray tell he has the tools to save you. If you run away from him it makes it harder for him to save you". "Just remember to always keep an eye on that there guage!". It's a shame if the other jobs aren't getting some sort of tuition, however basic, on enmity control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
Yeah I've noticed that :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
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04-19-2016, 01:23 AMRawrz
Typically classes will want to maximize dps, but I couldn't see someone attacking an off target unless Dots are up on main/aoe is no longer worth it/aoe is too resource intensive.
As a scholar I'll Dots, bane, shadowflare, aero spam EVERY target (if I'm sure they will all survive), redot/bane if applicable and then broil the mob with the highest health, because to attack a mob that is already stacked with dots and within death from those dots, is a dps loss. This results in aggro some of the time, but most tanks manage or the mob dies before it gets to me. -
04-22-2016, 08:53 PMAquaslashBruh. Have you ever played a DPS? Like ever? The things you suggest would make any DPS a woefully garbage one. We are NOT overflowing with tools to help you keep aggro. Speaking as a DRG main, all I got is elusive jump and that has a 3 minute cooldown. If I rip hate, elusive jump to give it back, and then take hate again because you can't hold aggro, then if you're as well geared as you claim to always be, then you are a bad tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezkeys79
Emnity is 100% your problem and yours alone, ESPECIALLY once you get your tank stance. You have the balls to imply that I need to essentially do less DPS, aka be bad at my job just so you can hold hate and do yours? How about you literally git gud.
I know it's rough starting out. I'm just learning WAR, and I lose hate all the time in the early levels. It's not the healers fault, I just need to overpower and flash more...and maybe move flash to the start of my cross class list so I can use it in Satasha and junk. I dunno, I'm still working it out -
04-22-2016, 09:34 PMStouterTaru
This whole thread reminds me of my favorite DF tank comment ever:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tank that wanted facepull half the dungeon
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04-23-2016, 03:27 AMLeeraSorlan
this is the same guy that shield lobs and waits for enemies to run to him
and the same guy that says he is unable to flash immediately upon engaging with enemies because he has to run out of the aoes that they use.
<_< cant winnem all. DF tanks these days -
04-27-2016, 12:28 AMJpec07
If someone starts attacking different targets (and they're not just spamming AoE, and I have markers out), I'll usually call them out by name and ask them to follow the kill order.
If that works, we continue.
If that doesn't work, we continue, and I may let them pull off of me while complaining to my FC about how Dragoons don't know how to freaking count.
EDIT: had to comment on something.
Yes. What he is suggesting is exactly right. If a tank is doing everything right and you are still pulling off of them, then you are performing poorly in your role. Remember, a dead DPS deals no DPS, so your primary job is to avoid damage and stay alive. That is accomplished in most group contexts by letting the tank tank; and if the tank is struggling to keep off of you, despite doing everything right, then it falls to you to help enable them so that you can survive. Slow your rotation down. Stop dealing damage for a few seconds. Let them get an extra enmity combo off to rebuild a solid hate lead. But by no means should you ignore their plight; doing so consciously ruins the experience for them, and has strong potential to make you dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
Let's put it this way: enmity management is the job of everyone in the group. Tanks should be able to control it well enough when they are geared, but it is still something everyone needs to work together on. Just like you wouldn't stand in an AoE marker to preserve your rotation, you shouldn't pull off the tank. Doing so is tantamount to taking avoidable damage, which is something good players don't do. -
04-27-2016, 06:06 PMAquaslashSounds more like he's shit at his role. If he's properly geared and doing everything right, then I should NEVER be able to steal hate, especially as a god damn dragoon. I should be able to go balls to the walls 100% of the time without a care in the world about pulling aggro. Hell, that's what happens all the time when tanks are even halfway competent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
Cause I totally don't have dots to keep up and buffs to maintain or anything like that.Quote:
Slow your rotation down.
If I EVER have to do this for the sole purpose of the tank holding aggro, and after I've used Elusive Jump, then I'll take the 30 minutes and go crafting. I don't even like doing that shit when I'm healing, and you want me to not punch things in the face when my primary job is to punch things in the face?Quote:
Stop dealing damage for a few seconds.
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04-27-2016, 09:50 PMJpec07Except "properly geared" has a very wide swath of meaning. Fractal and Neverreap have an iLvl 145 barrier to entry, and only scale people down to 210, last I checked (could be 180). If you're in full Eso on your Dragoon and you get in there with a fresh-to-60 tank who didn't know to use the Esos they got from ARF on a weapon, they're "properly geared" according to the game, but you still out-gear them by 65 levels. Even if I'm mistaken and its a 35-point gap to 180, a "properly geared" tank is going to need your help to hold hate off you when you out-gear them so. If you refuse to slow down and tear hate off of them at every turn, not only are you taking avoidable damage, but you're doing little more than wagging your e-peen around in the dungeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
Not that are worth tearing mobs and bosses off the tank and taking unnecessary damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
Please do, because the tank will have a much better time with someone who understands that enmity management is a group responsibility. And just in case you missed it, I'll reiterate my point: The primary job of the DPS role is to avoid any and all damage that can be avoided, so that you do not in any way risk dying. If you die, you do 0 DPS. DPS jobs are ill-equipped to soak damage, and while they may have a handful of defensive cooldowns, they don't have anywhere near the same tools for it that a tank does. A tank should be doing everything they can to take and hold hate, but sometimes that isn't enough. That's when you need to be willing to hold back a little bit. No, it's not fun, but skipping a GCD or two for the tank's benefit is not the end of the world. It's all well and good if you can put out huge numbers, but you need to be ready, willing, and able to take responsibility for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
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04-28-2016, 08:15 AMWhiteArchmageThis exactly, say I go as a SMN intro Fractal and happen to get a fresh faced lvl 60 tank who's struggling enough against the synched down i230 DRG's onslaught that he's only pulling small groups. Now I know that I could use all the tools in my arsenal, Painflare, Bane, Deathflare and do more DPS but...would I, really? He's already having trouble keeping hate against one overeager DPS in single-target, so the second my Deathflare hits I'm getting 2 or more mobs to the face, the healer is busy enough keeping the undergeared tank alive so I'm dead in 2 seconds. Any DPS I could have contributed will have to wait until the healer raises me or I run back from the start of the dungeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
If I pull back my deeps, only using Bane, festers and Quelling Strikes on my Deathflare, would I get bored? maybe. Would I be tempted to pull out Titan-egi? maybe. Would I be contributing more to the run by sticking to his target and pulling my punches instead of having mobs all over the place? hell yes. -
04-28-2016, 08:49 AMKabooaIt's 210.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
But at that point, the 14k hp Black Mage is nearly as durable as the 13k tank. In other words, it's basically a non-factor. -
04-28-2016, 12:32 PMJpec07Not really, no. In fact, this is so wrong that I'm not sure how you can say it with a straight face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
14k on a BLM doesn't go anywhere near as far as 13k on a tank, because in addition to the passive mitigation that tank has from the Def, M.Def, and Parry on their gear, the tank also has their tank stance (read: 20% extra mitigation), as well as a wide bevy of abilities they can use to reduce the damage they're taking. A BLM with 14k HP will be hit about twice as hard as a tank with 13k who uses their cooldowns appropriately - and the BLM also has zero capacity to deal with tankbusters. If that overzealous BLM pulls the boss off the tank, they generally will go splat. -
04-28-2016, 08:41 PMAquaslashThat's not what anyone means by properly geared, and you know it. I'm sure there's a word for such a silly jump to conclusions, but I don't know it so the hell with it. Right off the gate, if I'm in Neverfun, and I see that the poor tank is rocking law gear or even worse, as far as I'm concerned, that's under-geared, and woefully so. I'm probably not gonna bother with anything more than my base rotation at that point. I might even just quit, cause I really really hate that place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
Quote:
Not that are worth tearing mobs and bosses off the tank and taking unnecessary damage.
Quote:
bosses
If the tank has his tank stance, and I tear hate off of him in a boss that tank is bad. Full stop. By the time I get to Full Thrust in my opener, he should have a commanding lead on aggro. The ONLY time this is acceptable is open world hunts because the gear discrepancies are THAT big.Quote:
bosses
First and foremost, if I steal hate off a single mob, then I fully intend to kill that mob by myself. If I should somehow miraculously die, then the fault is mine, not because I stole aggro, but because I didn't do enough damage to kill the thing. By all means though, that never happens because there isn't an add in the game that can survive long enough the the point where I can steal aggro and it kills me. By the time I've even stolen aggro, it's generally at less than 5% and dotted to hell and back. That's why I'm so unforgiving of tanks failing to hold hate against me, because I generally have to WORK to steal the damned aggro in the first place. Or at least I do if they're not shitty tanks, which is the only reason I should ever have to watch my aggro.Quote:
Please do, because the tank will have a much better time with someone who understands that enmity management is a group responsibility. And just in case you missed it, I'll reiterate my point: The primary job of the DPS role is to avoid any and all damage that can be avoided, so that you do not in any way risk dying. If you die, you do 0 DPS. DPS jobs are ill-equipped to soak damage, and while they may have a handful of defensive cooldowns, they don't have anywhere near the same tools for it that a tank does.
Hold back for the tank? Hold back for anyone?Quote:
A tank should be doing everything they can to take and hold hate, but sometimes that isn't enough. That's when you need to be willing to hold back a little bit. No, it's not fun, but skipping a GCD or two for the tank's benefit is not the end of the world. It's all well and good if you can put out huge numbers, but you need to be ready, willing, and able to take responsibility for them.
Do you know what I hate more than anything else in a dungeon? Big pulls. In fact. I passionately hate big pulls. I find my AoE abilities to not only do pathetic damage, but waste TP, even with invigorate, and the mobs don't die any faster. I would much rather deal with small packs where I can easily spread dots and debuffs and keep a steady rotation flow going. You know how many tanks accommodate this? ZERO. You know how many tanks wanna pull entire goddamn rooms when the DPS composition is a DRG and a NIN? ALL OF THEM. Half the time, I'm lucky if the tank moves something to where I can access its rear and flank. So since you tanks don't ever hold back for me, why on Hydealyn should I bother returning the favor? -
04-28-2016, 11:55 PMJpec07So you admit to holding back when you know a tank is incapable of keeping hate off you. Good to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
And you're right; I did take your words to mean something you clearly didn't. Was feeling a bit fiesty yesterday, so I let some fallacious arguments in, and for that I apologize. The point stands that an undergeared tank will have difficulty against a well-geared player. In general, ~30 iLvls is pretty safe (they just may have to use their enmity combo more), but more than that, and your tank may start cursing your existence to their FC if you don't hold back.
Maybe see if the tank needs some advice? Not really required, but if you keep pulling off of them, and they appear to be geared, it might be a win-win if you check to make sure they know the basics of the job/role. There's also the issue of Neverreap and Fractal where there can be a 65-point gear gap. That's pretty insurmountable, even for a WAR in Defiance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
It wouldn't happen if you didn't steal the mob in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
Even if it can't kill you, you're still taking damage you could have avoided.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
Yep. That's right. You should do that if the situation calls for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
Sounds to me like you've gotten a long string of really mediocre tanks who fail to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of their group comp. A good tank will adjust their pulls and their pacing to accommodate the group's ability to do AoE DPS, and will only do ginormous pulls if they have a well-geared SMN or MNK, or maybe an extremely-geared BLM or BRD (or if the party consists of ONLY those classes). Small pulls are much better for every other job/comp, because they don't have great AoE, but excel at single-target - the dungeon will actually go faster with daisy-chained small pulls in a low-AoE comp than if you pull everything at once. On this we can agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
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04-29-2016, 12:17 AMAquaslashThe long and short of it is that all I'm asking for is basic competency in their role. For any tank that is on an equal gear level with me (let's call that within ten ilvls or a level synced instance), this means that they can establish and hold hate without my interference. The only times I should ever have to hold back are massive gear discrepancies, and botched pulls on bosses, where there's generally derps all around anyway. Tanks have more than enough tools in their arsenal to do this with ease, especially at endgame levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
Not only is this the simple standard I hold all tanks to, but it is the standard I hold myself to when I dabble in tanking. It's bad enough that I get lost in literally every dungeon, but so long as I have defiance on, if I lose aggro and someone gets rekt because of it, it is 100% my fault, and I'll never ask them to hold back. I'll just get better.
The point is that I shouldn't be able to even steal mobs from tanks so long as they have their tank stance on.Quote:
It wouldn't happen if you didn't steal the mob in the first place.
Moot point because at that point, I'll have either killed it before it even hit me, or I can self heal away whatever pitiful damage it did and inconvenience no oneQuote:
Even if it can't kill you, you're still taking damage you could have avoided.
But you know what the shitty part is? This is slightly unrelated but imma spin it anyway. People against DPS meters say that I should be able to tell how much damage I'm doing by watching the aggro meter. But now people like you are telling me purposefully put myself at the bottom of the aggro meter. Well gee wilikers batman! What am I supposed to do now?Quote:
Yep. That's right. You should do that if the situation calls for it.
The even worse part is, said tanks who I'd have to hold back for will then start bitching about poor DPS. I'll never be a good DPS at this rate :| -
04-29-2016, 12:52 AMStouterTaruExcept there's no real "bosses" where that applies to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpec07
Dungeon bosses typically don't have tank busters, in fact I take less damage as a BLM when I pull hate on Neverreap 2nd boss (morrowcloud never goes after #1 on the threat list).
With normal primals, you start out with all CDs, and a tank in tank stance should have no issue grabbing hate asap and holding it.
In raids/ex primals, if your BLM has more HP than your tank, your tank shouldn't be there.
For dungeon trash, if the tank can't hold hate on everything in a big pull, they shouldn't be big pulling. If they can't hold hate on everything in a small pull, that's just sad.