So in the live letter they said they're going to nerf MCH's burst damage. Are you kidding? Please do not nerf MCH's burst... That is their thing if you take that away what will a MCH bring to pvp? Their sustained damage is garbage, their LB sucks, they have no self heals other than recoup while also being one of the squishest jobs. Take away their burst damage and MCH will never get any kills again other than kill steals... MCH will just be a target for free kills basically, nothing more.
MCH too bursty?...
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03-28-2016, 01:24 AMCabalabobMCH too bursty?...
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03-28-2016, 02:12 AMFyce
I'm having a deja-vu...
Oh. Right.Quote:
So in the live letter they said they're going to nerf SMN's burst damage. Are you kidding? Please do not nerf SMN's burst... That is their thing if you take that away what will a SMN bring to pvp? Their sustained damage is garbage, their LB sucks, they have no self heals while also being one of the squishest jobs. Take away their burst damage and SMN will never get any kills again other than kill steals... SMN will just be a target for free kills basically, nothing more.
Sorry bud', chances are that your complain won't be listened to. And you'll probably get a nerf to some of your CC as well, without any reason.
http://i.imgur.com/qUpfdOT.jpg -
03-28-2016, 03:15 AMRiceisNiceStill thinking SMN didn't need some form of adjustments? CC is a big factor in a small scale fight like feast. While I agree that some things didn't need to be touched on SMN (such as DoT durations), they needed to be toned down in relation to the cast interrupt changes (moreso if they're going to adjust the walls so it's harder to LoS) and in relation to the other ranged jobs. The bigger problem out of this is that they left WHM/BLM's CC untouched. Even with the adjustments, bind is pretty detrimental to desyncing the other team's burst, especially if they aren't coordinated enough to immediately esuna it (and no one is realistically going to use purify on it when there's TD, full swing, among other things out there)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
And this isn't new either. Practically all of the ranged dps' damage outside of bursts is pitifully low (excluding BLM who previously had different problems), not just SMN. If they wanted to move away from the burst meta, then sure; but heals also need to be adjusted in relation because there's realistically no way for dps to outdps a healer's hps (espesically a WHM) without the arbitrary oom (which then slows down the pacing of the game in generals, and from what I see they want to keep the pacing fast) -
03-28-2016, 04:14 AMFyceDon't you think that it doesn't make sense to try moving away from the burst meta while making healers stronger with the interrupt changes?Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
If SE wants people to try outDPSing the enemy healer's HPS, then you need burst as an answer to instant heals (tetra, bene, E.Dignity, Lustrate...).
If you don't have that burst, the "kill the healer if it's not the one with the defensive buff" will stay.
What's next? Life Surge removed from DRG and Full Thrust at 275 potency? NIN Kassatsu unable to make Raiton crit? BRD Barrage not working with Emp.Arrow?
Unless they want us to settle fights during culling time, and then do an unfair come back with melee LB... but that's dumb because it means "yeah, we don't want yo to burst with your skills, but rather with culling time and melee LB on heavy medals".
I really don't understand what they want to do with the PvP. Especially when they nerf one of the weakest job in terms of CC (SMN) while letting BLM sit on his 'CC king' throne.
The balance is all over the place.
Edit: on the SMN topic, Aetherflow on a 90s cooldown and Bane/Painflare/Deathflare having their potency halved on the second target and above. That would have been better imo. -
03-28-2016, 04:24 AMRiceisNiceIt's a two faced thing that really doesn't make sense , especially in relation to the changes. You're realistically not going to outdps a healer (specifically WHM)'s HPS without any burst or CC (on the enemy healer), even if they don't have the defense buff (unless they're foolish enough to do something like pop B4B or have heavy medal).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
The heavy medal change (along with leaving BLM/WHM's CC unchanged) is probably the most baffling of changes to me. I mentioned it before, even as high as 2 stacks (which is 200 medals) is enough to turn a non-tank into a squishy target that gives Issac Clark a run for his money, while at hte same time it's mostly unchanged because you're still looking at 6+ stacks to bust a tank through healers.
You either want a more frequent burst that emphasises on damage, or a more powerful burst at the cost of having a longer cooldown. Just not...both. Especially when it has very little strings attached to it (compared to say MCH or even BRD because they have to apply their DoTs individually) -
03-28-2016, 05:26 AMlovelikewinter
http://puu.sh/nW5gS.gif
Where's that person that would bring up how mch/brd need a buff in every pvp thread lately, despite it being completely irrelevant to the thread topic?
HAH. -
03-28-2016, 05:30 AMKataTime
I can crit for 7.5K+ with BtE. It's not exactly difficult either. Now granted this is with every single CD stacked, on average without raging strikes its about 4-5K. Average dps has around 9.5-10K life. Not sure taking almost an entire HP bar in a single skill is a great idea. BtE is fine on its own or with something like Hawkeye, but with turret debuff and raging strikes it can be impossible to react against (unless you go full fending). That being said BRD/MCH damage outside of cooldowns is just sad when you compare it to SMN/BLM.
Truth be told, the only reason I am playing MCH IS because of the huge BtE crits, it's survivalbility is really BLEH. It is flexible on CC but surviving fetter ward openers is just not fun on MCH because you literally are at the mercy of your healer. I wouldn't have said it was OP in the feast, since the kill does come at best once every 3 Mins, and I'd rather play a game where the kills come from me as opposed to waiting for LB/culling. In my opinion culling should be an anti turtle mechanic, not something you plan your game around. I think it's really odd that they are nerfing MCH burst, but increasing the frequency of adrenaline spawn - I thought the whole point of the nerf was to get away from 1 shots?
EDIT: Melee LB should be brought down to something like 5k that does not benefit from any damage increase. You still have an on demand big hit, but it doesn't tilt an incompetent team into victory. Mayhaps disable LBs in the last 2 mins of the match? This is why early patch notes are really nice, we don't even know what's coming exactly and how other changes will affect everything as a whole. Need better communication rather than a tidbit of "MCH burst is getting addressed", or just no info at all. -
03-28-2016, 06:07 AMIagainsti
Sad really. I thought Mch burst was huge because there are so many ways to interrupt it. Besides the standard stun/sleep, the burst can fizzle if wildfire is stripped, or if the bind/sleep/stun is removed before BtE hits.
Mch burst may be great, but theres a huge build up, and the CDs can only be used 3 times in a match. -
03-28-2016, 06:24 AMHouston009Popping CDs is not a "huge build up". MCH can bind/stun for themselves and get BtE out before it's even humanly possible to cleanse bind/stun. Raging Strikes is the only CD that can only be used 3 times, the others are 90ish seconds, barring Hypercharge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
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03-28-2016, 07:01 AMIagainstiI'm guessing you don't play Mch....Quote:
Originally Posted by Houston009
You're right though, technically you can get off 4 BtE, but only 3 will be buffed by raging strikes, only 2 will be buff by both RS+HE if you're also maxing wildfire utilization for the match. -
03-28-2016, 07:10 AMHouston009
I'm guessing you don't know me.
What exactly is this "huge build up" that mch has? -
03-28-2016, 07:23 AMCherubJust here to say that you speak out of my soul and I love this pic.<3Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
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03-28-2016, 07:36 AMRiceisNiceRanged/Caster LB already do 4k/5k respectively. Nerfing it's damage defeats the point of it due to the cast timer and animation lock, that it's often "you kill them with it or you don't" sort of deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by KataTime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
"Build up" is the wrong word to use. A better one would be situational or unconventional. It works exactly like trying to bane/fester off after your bio or tri-disaster, and SMNs would understand when I say this; there's a bit of a delay between using bind and BtE to get the triple potency. Stun gun is incredibly unreliable for this due to latency and the off chance that you either don't get the stun off or they're not within your LoS after the fact (and the latter applies to supressive fire, on top of it having a piss poor stun duration especially if DRs are factored). Nor would I be quick to dismiss to just how powerful RS is, it's a flat 20% damage buff even without a trait. Then you also have ricochet which is situational in it's own right because all it takes is one other person being next to your target and you've lost 100 potency right there. Egis and fairies count toward this, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Houston009
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03-28-2016, 12:26 PMKataTime
You are writing a lot of things that are just plain not true.
For one getting a BtE off is a joke, its literally as simple as popping all of your damage CDs (and unlike the tribind fester, it is very responsive) and just hitting bind + BtE. It is so reliable that I don't hesitate doing it on focused targets, because I can hit them both at the same time and it's good enough for the server. Same goes for stun gun.
A lot of your grievances seem like "git gud" issues, somebody not within LoS? Stunning a DR'ed target? Not being able to pull off melee LB? Ricochet hitting more than 1 target because somebody walked in (it's an instant off the freaking GCD)? I'm also not sure whats unconventional/situational about blowing all your cooldowns and hitting a damage button? Does that mean Berserk+Fel Cleave is situational? I just hit it whenever it's up and it works fine (I use the word fine when it doesn't crit =p). -
03-28-2016, 12:33 PMRiceisNiceIt's not as responsive as I'd like to be on my end.The fact that ricochet needs to single them out for full damage is already a factor, not "somebody walked in" (though more often than not, walking out of the group is typically what gets them killed in the first place). I can still get it off without a problem on people that are getting focused down, however you still can't really deny the late detection for things like stunning in melee range, or even blank/knockbacks for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by KataTime
And honestly, I'm not arguing that they're things that you can't play around, I'm saying that they are things that have to be played around anyway, compared other bursts. -
03-28-2016, 05:31 PMMaddoniousThis is my biggest gripe to pvp but everyone lieks to tell me im wrong. I shouldnt have to wait for culling or Heavy medal to get a kill. Healers need an overall nerf (well not sch, I find that easy to deal with) to even allow people to fight properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
Also dont dis my blm cc. Unlike a smn who can throw all his dots on someone and spread them then use 3 more INSTANT moves to burst we blms still have cast times and LoS issues. Without our blm cc helping us in 4v4 to some degree we become worthless. 15s/6s sleeps/binds dont account for much when I can only toss out 2 attacks during that time.
While its low in theory at least you guys have the option to get more dps while moving then we do. Scathe scathe scathe scathe........ yeah...... if only I had the option to remove my turret status in pvp.Quote:
Originally Posted by KataTime
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03-28-2016, 07:15 PMNoelNoelLet me stop you right here, healers do not need a nerf, (nothing needs a nerf except maybe the heavy medal system) people need to get good and focus on the same targets. Have you tried playing healer before even suggesting to nerf them? I encourage you to try it, see how "easy" you find it. Also if you actually have to wait for culling or heavy medals everytime to get kills you should reexamine your BLM gameplay...Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddonious
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03-28-2016, 11:02 PMRiceisNiceIf we're attacking on the move, chances are, we aren't using GB/WM. Our overall damage compared to other jobs (which is already lower to begin with) is with GB/WM, and that's before the ranged damage penalty. Our damage outside of burst really isn't any home to write home about; we have to turret just as much as a BLM with the cast times for the most part, and the payout is typically much lower. Our DPS on-the-go options essentially amounts to nothing just like scathe at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddonious
At this point in time, there's no way that you can out dps a WHM's hps unless there was an outside factor (CCs, coordinated burst,), which are incredibly few and far inbetween. That being said though, there are plenty of options to do so depending on your party composition. What really needs to be adjusted is some of the timers on CCs in relation to the interrupt changes (especially if they're going to make it harder to LoS through walll adjustments, which benefits BLMs more than anything), which isn't exclusive to just WHM/healer nerfs.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoelNoel
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03-29-2016, 02:07 AMSaint_AngelesSpoken like a true non-melee. Have you ever seen the animation lock on that thing? And how long it takes to go off? If it dealt 5k it would make it unbalanced completely the other direction and largely completely useless. I suppose that's not much of an issue if you don't play melee though, so nerf us to death I guess?Quote:
Originally Posted by KataTime
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03-29-2016, 02:09 AMMaddoniousHealers wouldnt be as much of an issue if the diminishing returns allowed us to sleep/control them more. With an entire min of immunity it becomes incredibly hard to hold them in place after the start. They should lower the immunity to all cc down to 30s if they really want us to control them properly. Purify just destroys any really strong cc (blm) that we can place on them atm with only a 90s cd which is just ridiculous in terms of how short the game modes can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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03-29-2016, 02:17 AMRiceisNiceIf you're haphazardly popping purify on just any sleep/bind, you;re not gonna have it for something that's equally as big on a different front, such as full swing or holmgang. It's fine the way it is because it forces out a card on both sides. Even 6 seconds is plenty of time to make something happen in something as fast as feast, especially in relation to the burst damage we have right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddonious
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03-29-2016, 02:38 AMNoelNoelI really wish more good pvp players gave their opinions on forums because reading this or stuff like making sleep last 6 sec feels like it's coming from people who just want to kill stuff in 2 sec without any challenge attached to it. Forums are full of this, it's the only feedback SE gets from us.... Terrifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddonious
Sleep lasting 6 sec lolol. Whatever... Start purifying your healers when they need it. -
03-29-2016, 03:44 AMLilith_Merquise
It's funny, this is apparently so much of an issue that there are barely any supporters of the decision, but there is far more negative feedback on MCH needing to be "Addressed" at all. Why don't you keep your filthy reflexive hands, out my PVP Yosheep.
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03-29-2016, 03:47 AMRiceisNiceTo play devil's advocate, there's a lot less MCH players compared to SMN players. On the inverse, this is the first time I've heard about their burst being that big of a difference that it outshines the other ranged dps, all factors considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise
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03-29-2016, 03:47 AMMaddoniousI are great pvper! I poke the tank and break my own cc \o/. On a serious note however I know what im talking about. People are always afraid of what true competitive fighting is really about and you, like most, are always schoffing at changes made to any character or gameplay to help balance it more. As a blm my main way of fighting in pvp is CC but with the current DRs it makes my cc worthless after the first usage of a match for far to long.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoelNoel
Turret classes cant do that much with 6s in terms of burst beyond mch. I feel like people just pick and choose what they think reality is rather then what is currently is outside of their head. They always think the cards will fall to favor them in the mock up matches in their own renditions but you have to talk how it will actually turn out. People LoS ranged dps so those 6s that healers are down for mean nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
Also you wouldn't use a purify on the first 15s sleep? -
03-29-2016, 03:53 AMRiceisNiceThe irony in this when most of your perspective seems to come from solo queues, yet you ask for changes that affect the entire game meta. That's the point of CCs to give an opening. Even with a solid burst, it's not going to drop anyone unless they were conversely unprepared to deal with that damage. If your healer is out of commission for a full 6 seconds, someone is going to drop to a burst no mater whose it is, not just MCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddonious
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03-29-2016, 04:11 AMLilith_Merquise
That's true, there are a lot more SMNs then MCHs an its only been recently that MCH has become Flavor of the Month but that is the point I"m getting at. It was only changed about a patch ago, and rather then giving it time to wear out it's shine, they see more people playing it and nerf it. Like I've seen a post or two regarding MCH burst, but I haven't seen topics worth of nerf necessities.
And purify is something I utilize if it means I can get a kill, or avoid a death, not because I can't stand standing still for a few seconds. So if someone is at 5% and I get slept, ya I'll pop it and pop them. Or if I'm being chased and get boun and I"m at 50%, I'll pop it. But if my healer is dead and I'ma t 10% an bound, unfortunately it's best to let it happen then waste the CD. if nobody is close to death an I'm slept, ya I'll ride it out because it's not like I'll be in a rush to get back up, and healer will most likely cure me out of it if they are good. It isn't luxurious to stand there unable to o anything, but it is worse to use an ability you didn't need to use or get a kill for it.
It's a lot like League of LEgends Summoner Spells, you don't pop Ignite on someone at 100% HP, or Flash to harass a player but get no kills. If you're going to use em, it better be to avoid feeding a kill or net a kill. If not, you wasted it. -
03-29-2016, 04:17 AMMaddonious4v4 is the only one with rewards so therefore should be the main focus of balance. Sorry to say thats how things work. Also you cant expect people to know when to burst cause the healer is down. No one is gonna know the healer is asleep at that exact 6 secs.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
As I mentioned before stop thinking its the perfect scenario and your team is spot on perfect. In premade sure. But this is all about the solo mode. People are dumber then you give them credit for.
Seems most of your perspective comes from premade or 8v8. So we might as well be at an impass. -
03-29-2016, 04:25 AMRiceisNiceThey have long since recanted that, and we're not even sure when the first season is going to start anymore. And I even mentioned this, it's a terrible format for seasonal rewards, but that's a different issue all together. My point is that the balance should not be directed around the lowest common denominator, because doing that will not allow for a game to evolve if they actually decide to implement ranked matches to matched queues. Poor plays should lead to a loss, honestly speaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddonious
Depending on the circumstances, this is not always the answer. Am I sleeped, the healer is in front of me, and my ninja partner just popped trick attack and his cooldowns? I'm going to pop purify so our burst is coordinated. Is my entire group slept behind a wall from the BLM's swiftcast/nightwing? We're gonna collectively wait and see what their next move is. I'm slept by myself and our cooldowns are down? I'm better off waiting it off because I'm really not going to do much otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddonious
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03-29-2016, 04:50 AMLilith_Merquise
<--- I only play 4v4 Ranked, an I disagree with you @Madonious
enfeeblements are just fine, and if they are placed at the right moment (even if your team doesn't know, you will know when a MNK is going balls out for a SMN) you can swing the tide by even interrupting just 1 GCD rotation, it can mean the difference between death and life. Sure not every match is going to be E-Sports perfect levels of coordination, but addding faster CDs, lower immunity builds, or even longer rates, would be insanely over powered for a game that's already doing well.
Your Job as a BLM, is to drop the big bursts that help the other busty DPS get kills from your long cast times, or to be the killing blow for DPS already lowering a DPS down. And sleep sleep sleep to interrupt those GCDs. Just because you're not killing things doesn't mean the system is wrong, it means your outlook an expectations are wrong. -
03-29-2016, 05:52 AMPetiteAs it is now, MCH burst is so strong when played by good players that they can kill someone before the healer has had time to properly react. Its no wonder I've seen more gold and silver MCHs than any other class. Something has to be done about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
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03-29-2016, 05:54 AMRiceisNiceThere's too many factors to boil it down to being solely the MCH. Would this be an example of what you're talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Petite
Ratings alone are hardly good for judging whether a job is good or not, considering a player can be any job, and the general workings of a rank. -
03-29-2016, 01:15 PMVaeria
LoL...just...LoL. Outside of its burst..why would one even bring mch to pvp? That was the ONE thing that seperated it from brd. And yes...the burst DOES take time to build up, forcing you to leave 90% of your useful skills alone til its ready so that downtime is laughable. ..hell..can't even hold the gun with 2 hands. Mch was the one answer to skillful whms that could pull even mp-less blms back from the brink of death. And now? Just funny.
Thinking back to Seal Rock, ask yourself..what was the number of mchs to smn? See. Even with its supposed OPness, not many bothered with the job..which made skilled users really stand out. Just beginning to wonder what the developers are trying to achieve..seeing as how everytime people find a niche thats effective, it gets busted. I don't play smn, blm, or war, but remember they used to be beautiful damagewise in their own respects. Does Se just not want people to be killed quickly in pvp? Is this Yoshi's revenge for playing as a taru back in ff11 Ballista during Asuran Fists/Sidewinder happy hour?
Will say this...not gonna help the ques any. Less mchs will mean if one doesn't have smn, may opt to go melee..which'll cause ranged shortage (seeing a LOT less blms now even with the patch) Think this is really justa matter of tome farmers getting butt-hurt over getting 1shotted right off the back (with RS being what...180 sec?) and being too lazy to deal with it. FFs..the job's got nothing else to give. :( -
03-29-2016, 01:55 PMLilith_Merquise
lol where are you even viewing people's rankings to even make this claim? You can't even view people's stuff on the character site.... so, what is backing this claim?
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03-29-2016, 02:46 PMChevronone
BRD's burst, if the class is played correctly, is just as deadly in PvP as a MCH's. I can absolutely solo kill any dps without a def buff before a healer can even react.
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03-29-2016, 03:11 PMEumenide
Looks like they didn't nerf mch after all when looking at patch notes
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03-29-2016, 03:51 PMDimitrii
At least all the machinists can finally step down from that ledge now (though since these arent the final adjustments yet probably best to stay on your roof tops lol). I have no idea why they felt NIN needed to have a gap closer on a 40 sec recast when they along with DRG have two gap closers already. Its almost as frequent as monk's shoulder tackle which is 30 sec but with shoulder tackle being the monks lone gap closer i could understand its low recast unlike this freebie they handed nins. Though since both stun I suppose its not as useful of a gap closer as it could have been had it not had the stun attached to it..
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03-29-2016, 07:27 PMPetiteI'm more puzzled as to why they lowered CDs for Somersault and Ill Wind. Were people clamoring for them to be lowered? I must have missed the memo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
So NIN and MNK anti-caster/healer abilities got further buffed while DRG still can only hope their target's stun resilience isn't maxed out to interrupt them. Cool.
Sigh, I guess its time to try out MNK.
From match result scoreboards. Chill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilith_Merquise
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03-29-2016, 09:17 PMGeologo
I think they buffed a little the malee classes talking on terms of caster interrupts most of all, considering the 15% hp treshold for mages, and keeping the DRG untouched because it still can hit hard enough to interrupt "better" than other melee.
As heal/caster I honestly think that Somersault and Ill Wind buff can be a skillful reply to a flat buff (15% treshold).
Also tried to give a free buff to DRK, but in my opinion it didn't change it anyway.
The 2 things that actually made me chuckle a little was the "Oh crap we forgot to nerf MCH as previously announced" and the Farshot buff, both things are not game changer to me but I just felt it a little odd.
I hope they won't change it anyway on the Season One start, so players won't be able to see if it's all fine before it :/ -
03-29-2016, 11:27 PMKingKoush
MCH is the only class that can take you down without you even having a chance to retaliate. Within a second you can go from 70% hp to 0% without even going through hoops to stop it (With no medals). I would rather get hit by Melee LB then tango with a MCH because at least with Melee LB I can survive possibly and Benedict.