DPS checks vs mechanics

The worst thing you could have done was make dps checks in fights. From what I have seen is people want to deal with mechanics and no dps checks. But hey you will never change or fix anything.

With no DPS check in a fight, why bother taking DPS? Y'all are squishy. Just take 6 tanks and 2 healers instead.

Who cares about having a full party at that point? Just take 2 tanks and 2 healers and 4-man all 8-man content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

With no DPS check in a fight, why bother taking DPS? Y'all are squishy. Just take 6 tanks and 2 healers instead.

---

You and the OP are both right, DPS checks should exist, harsh DPS checks should not be mechanics of a fight. Soft DPS checks are fine (things like meteors are fun and creative), and like you said, enrage is a necessity, but should be balanced so that beating it doesn't become one of the main mechanics of the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolly

The worst thing you could have done was make dps checks in fights. From what I have seen is people want to deal with mechanics and no dps checks. But hey you will never change or fix anything.

---

Less checks and more mechanics in next raid.

The DPS check in a fight is just another mechanic. It adds engaging gameplay. If all a player had to do was just show up, run in circles, and there was zero pressure or incentive to play your job effectively the entire chemistry of the game would be demolished. So, um, a DPS check is a mechanic.

The only instance I can assume is fair reference for a harsh DPS check is Alexander Savage. And not even all of Alexander Savage, just A3S in particular. Since we have the statistics on clears from the NA side, I'm assuming the majority of players haven't even reached that content to justify complaining about it. Things like "island integrity" in the Bismark trial make sense, and add an element of danger to what would otherwise be a snoozefest.

I hate the concept of wiping if the DPS check is failed. I'd rather have large damage or a debuff or something inflicted instead of a wipe. Something player skill could recover from. Because of the DPS or wipe mechanics, fights are too scripted. If things don't go 100% as planned, people give up and wipe. I'd prefer fights that give you a chance to recover from a failed DPS check.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You and the OP are both right, DPS checks should exist, harsh DPS checks should not be mechanics of a fight.

---

Well, they need to be harsh enough that you won't be inclined to just replace DPS with either healers or tanks. So the more narrow the DPS gap between DPS and other roles, the harsher the DPS checks need to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You and the OP are both right, DPS checks should exist, harsh DPS checks should not be mechanics of a fight. Soft DPS checks are fine (things like meteors are fun and creative), and like you said, enrage is a necessity, but should be balanced so that beating it doesn't become one of the main mechanics of the fight.

---

I agree. My comment was meant to demonstrate the absurdity of what OP is asking for.

Asking for DPS checks to be completely removed = making DPS classes all but obsolete.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brill_

I hate the concept of wiping if the DPS check is failed. I'd rather have large damage or a debuff or something inflicted instead of a wipe. Something player skill could recover from. Because of the DPS or wipe mechanics, fights are too scripted. If things don't go 100% as planned, people give up and wipe. I'd prefer fights that give you a chance to recover from a failed DPS check.

---

Yes. Please put the onus on the healers to power through large damage or an intense debuff if the dps fail; they should be the ones with the player skill to save the entire party. Then, if the party still wipes feel free to blame them and not the dps performing in a sub-par manner. Good idea! :/

Fights typically aren't made for players to "recover" from failing at a dps check. They are made to wipe the group, so that they have to go back and keeping working on the fight to continually improve at executing its requirements. Going through that experience, also in turn, breeds a better player. They become more situationally aware (hopefully), and more successful at executing their rotations (maintaining optimal dps) while engaging in harder mechanics in said fight and beyond.

sigh...
is that really how the new generation is thinking?

Its as if you never played good games.
One of the best memories I have from games with no DPS checks!
You dont know anything if you say it will make classes obsolete or if you say you just need to run in circles...

Its called freedom and who you are to judge other players decisions?
If a group of friends likes to go in and try it with 8 PLD why you force on them what you think is right? you are wrong to force them!
And I said trying, it does not mean it becomes harder or easier or even if it is possible at all...
The balancing is meant to make it FUN but isnt made to make it impossible!
A good game is having more than one way to beat obstacles but here in ffxiv we are forced to do it with the only "possibility"...
Listening to your arguments it sounds like every sandbox game or tabletop game is a failure, i just wonder why they make more fun than ffxiv?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

Less checks and more mechanics in next raid.

---

Hope dies last :)

They aren't mutually exclusive and I'll give you 3 examples of varying difficulty.

People fail the DPS checks in say, A3s, because they can't actually handle DPSing while doing mechanics. They either tunnel vision or fail mechanics, leading to deaths, DPS loss, wipes. I've never heard of a group disbanding there because they couldn't make the enrage timer. When you get there you'll eventually win.

People fail the Sable Price in the Aery all the time, not because the check is particularly hard but because they have to start paying attention to what is happening around them while doing their rotation half-correctly.

Another DPS check that I see people fail so much that I have to issue a warning whenever I get it is Ramuh's Grey Arbiters. People never fail it because they lack the DPS to make it, it's extremely low. They fail it because they can't be bothered doing the mechanic, which requires peeling off Ramuh and killing the Arbiters.

DPS checks usually aren't the problem.

DPS check are a mechanic, and an important one, they are just over used and abused by devs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kerrigen

They aren't mutually exclusive and I'll give you 3 examples of varying difficulty.

People fail the DPS checks in say, A3s, because they can't actually handle DPSing while doing mechanics. They either tunnel vision or fail mechanics, leading to deaths, DPS loss, wipes. I've never heard of a group disbanding there because they couldn't make the enrage timer. When you get there you'll eventually win.

People fail the Sable Price in the Aery all the time, not because the check is particularly hard but because they have to start paying attention to what is happening around them while doing their rotation half-correctly.

Another DPS check that I see people fail so much that I have to issue a warning whenever I get it is Ramuh's Grey Arbiters. People never fail it because they lack the DPS to make it, it's extremely low. They fail it because they can't be bothered doing the mechanic, which requires peeling off Ramuh and killing the Arbiters.

DPS checks usually aren't the problem.

---

Sounds like you doing that with all 8 having iLvL of 210...
its just not true what you say!

Giving one example: having a bit low skillspeed result in skipping one skill which result in less DPS and in a fight with 8 minutes it sums up to a lot missing DPS...
I have seen statics braking apart just because 3% difference in boss HP and players yelling at each other: "push it", "push it"...
Edit: To add -> Thats why players mostly die before enrage, because they try to push it over the limit and fail on avoiding mechanics because they like to add one more skill on the boss before running...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yukiko

Sounds like you doing that with all 8 having iLvL of 210...
its just not true what you say!

Giving one example: having a bit low skillspeed result in skipping one skill which result in less DPS and in a fight with 8 minutes it sums up to a lot missing DPS...
I have seen statics braking apart just because 3% difference in boss HP and players yelling at each other: "push it", "push it"...
Edit: To add -> Thats why players mostly die before enrage, because they try to push it over the limit and fail on avoiding mechanics because they like to add one more skill on the boss before running...

---

Sorry, but if a player can't or won't optimize their gear/stats, and that in turn is causing them substantial amounts of dps downtime, then they probably shouldn't be raiding harder content in the first place; that is a hindrance on the entire party. They should be sticking to dungeons, primals, and raiding things like story mode (aka "Normal") or ARK etc.

While it's true that some deaths in raids are caused by a player trying to sneak in an extra hit or two on a boss, I would have to say that is typically not the reason that mechanics are failed. IMO the majority of mechanical failure tends to stem from field/situational awareness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syrehn

Sorry, but if a player can't or won't optimize their gear/stats, and that in turn is causing them substantial amounts of dps downtime, then they probably shouldn't be raiding harder content in the first place; that is a hindrance on the entire party. They should be raiding story mode (aka "Normal") or things like ARK etc.

---

I am sure you giving me now a list of all jobs and their gear... Do you even know them all?
Its not the first time i heard about "you need gear from coil to beat coil", same with alexander!
Its not the DPS or stats that are bad, its the combination of them - try to mix voidark, esos and alexander -> you will miss something!
Most players are focusing to reach the required acc (which is another example why to fail DPS checks) but it result in having less skillspeed depending on job

Yuki, your implication that people who disagree with you "must not have played good games" is both condescending and short-sighted. While we all are entitled to an opinion of what makes a game functionally good, the fact that you identify the isuue as "Statics breaking apart due to a 3%" margin of a boss' HP is far from a good example as to why DPS checks are bad. You're ultimately arguing against a skill cap, which is foolish. The content is optional, there is a normal mode that you can play. You don't have to subject yourself to the difficult mechanic, and you finding it to be a flaw does in no way mean it is a detriment to gameplay. A DPS check is nothing more than coordination, much like another poster said in regards to Ramuh. Having done all of that content when it was released, your citation that "we probably did it in i210 gear" is inherently wrong. Many, many players defeated these challenges when they were released and difficult. Do not presume to diminish the accomplishments of others so dismissively. If you don't equate coordination with skill, you'd be mistaken. Fun is subjective, as you said. Getting and being good at a game is fun to a lot of people. Accomplishment is fun.

You will never find a vertical progression game with no DPS checks. DPS checks are essentially "do you know your job? OK, how is your gear?" They provide the reason to stay locked into the gear treadmill, which is how the game retains subs. Endgame encounters without some form of DPS check will never happen.

Regardless, mechanic only encounters are no more a test of skill than DPS check only encounters. Anyone can play jump rope, and anyone can memorize the first hundred digits of pi and rattle them off. Its when you merge the two that skill comes in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Yuki, your implication that people who disagree with you "must not have played good games" is both condescending and short-sighted. While we all are entitled to an opinion of what makes a game functionally good, the fact that you identify the isuue

---

Thats not what i said, but well... whatever, you will turn around words anyway to fit it as you wish...
It may helps to read the whole and not just pickup pieces...
Indeed i am thinking that "good games" are where i have gotten "best memories"...
It would be strange to call games where i have gotten "best memories" as "bad games"...
Edit: And those "best memories" were in games with no DPS checks, do you get the connection?!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yukiko

I am sure you giving me now a list of all jobs and their gear... Do you even know them all?
Its not the first time i heard about "you need gear from coil to beat coil", same with alexander!
Its not the DPS or stats that are bad, its the combination of them - try to mix voidark, esos and alexander -> you will miss something!
Most players are focusing to reach the required acc (which is another example why to fail DPS checks) but it result in having less skillspeed depending on job

---

I'm just going to leave this little snippet from what I said right here in case you missed it and highlight the appropriate portions...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syrehn

Sorry, but if a player can't or won't optimize their gear/stats, and that in turn is causing them substantial amounts of dps downtime....

---

Now, to address your comment about jobs/gear/stats. It's not my job as the healer of the party to know the best stats/rotations/gear for all the other jobs in my party. It's my job to know my optimal healer stats/gear to play the class to my best ability; this is achieved through research on my job. The same can be said for anyone else. Know the job that you're raiding on.

The onus is on each individual player that is progression raiding savage level content to know their gear/stat combos; no one else.

That being said, if someone in the raid group is struggling dps wise and it's noticeably causing issues then it's discussed. Team mates will help look into what could be causing potential stat/gear/performance issues and try to help fix them. If that player is unwilling to accept help or change then they don't belong in the group. Period.

DPS checks are a lazy mechanic and are frustrating because they can be simply out-geared. We seem to have a lot more DPS-check focused mechanics in Heavensward than I ever remember in ARR. Even so, you still needed high DPS. I think a great example is T9. This fight, mechanically, is quite challenging. I unsynced coil with 6 newbies and 1 other person who had cleared them with me before. We raced through every turn, except T9. We were stuck on T9 for quite awhile as the team grew to learn the mechanics of the fight. It's certainly easier now that we were unsynced and doing more damage, but that wasn't the focus mechanic. In my opinion, T9 is the best designed fight in this game, and it would be great to see more fights with that sort of complexity.

I think fights should encourage you to have good DPS, but over-gearing (high DPS) shouldn't trivialize the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurie

Blah.

---

The sarcasm clearly went over your head.

For the other part of your post. How about Turn 5, or Turn 13? Or, more recently, Thordan Extreme. There are fights with more complex mechanics. Yoshi has all ready addressed the point that the dps checks in Savage were too difficult. Why are we still talking about it, when the issue has all ready been addressed and Midas will, supposedly, return to Final Coil level of difficulty?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yukiko

Thats not what i said, but well... whatever, you will turn around words anyway to fit it as you wish...
It may helps to read the whole and not just pickup pieces...
Indeed i am thinking that "good games" are where i have gotten "best memories"...
It would be strange to call games where i have gotten "best memories" as "bad games"...
Edit: And those "best memories" were in games with no DPS checks, do you get the connection?!

---

This is actually an argument that I have quite often with people. Just because you like something, it doesn't make it good. It is possible to recognize that something is bad and still like it. Some of my favorite movies are horrible movies from an objective stand point. Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle? Terrible movie, but one of my favorites. A Knight's Tale? Bad movie that I can enjoy every single time it comes on. Objectivity goes a long way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Klamor

The sarcasm clearly went over your head.

---

Ah indeed it did. I thought he was serious. I'll adjust my post, as the rest of my point stands.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syrehn

I'm just going to leave this little snippet from what I said right here in case you missed it and highlight the appropriate portions...

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yukiko

Its not the first time i heard about "you need gear from coil to beat coil", same with alexander!

---

You should consider looking at other jobs if you argue like that because you argue like every other job than yours dont have stat problems...
Try to compare some as example take a mnk who can only beat AS2 so far which means no AS3 or AS4 equip and look at the differences in stats, its not entirely that the players did not do research its mostly the fixed stats on gearsets that prevent customising them to your needs... Lets see, the new materia system may fix that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SnugglesD

This is actually an argument that I have quite often with people. Just because you like something, it doesn't make it good. It is possible to recognize that something is bad and still like it. Some of my favorite movies are horrible movies from an objective stand point. Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle? Terrible movie, but one of my favorites. A Knight's Tale? Bad movie that I can enjoy every single time it comes on. Objectivity goes a long way.

---

Human beings are the sum of experiences made through life, if you argue now with "everything is relative" we can perish being humans...
You can say its my opinion and its subjective but i do not force it on anyone. I never said you are playing bad games!
What i said was "as if..." and then i have even given a reason what was meant with "good game" from this viewpoint.
Now if you try to change the viewpoint but keeping the said parameters it will not work...

Lets draw a line from point A to point B to point C to point D... a Square when we look from top, a line when we look from sides...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yukiko

You should consider looking at other jobs if you argue like that because you argue like every other job than yours dont have stat problems...
Try to compare some as example take a mnk who can only beat AS2 so far which means no AS3 or AS4 equip and look at the differences in stats, its not entirely that the players did not do research its mostly the fixed stats on gearsets that prevent customising them to your needs... Lets see, the new materia system may fix that.

---

Again...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syrehn

Sorry, but if a player can't or won't optimize their gear/stats, and that in turn is causing them substantial amounts of dps downtime....

---

Please take note of the parts that say "can't" or "won't". This is usually indicative of players having the option but choosing not to.

Also, don't put words in my mouth. I never said there aren't stat problems on other jobs but clearly, players optimizing to the best of their abilities and executing mechanics appropriately (situational awareness goes a long way) can still complete challenging content and perform at an optimal level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yukiko

sigh...
is that really how the new generation is thinking?

Its as if you never played good games.
One of the best memories I have from games with no DPS checks!
You dont know anything if you say it will make classes obsolete or if you say you just need to run in circles...

---

Welp, that certainly didn't take long for someone to get condescending.

Try making your point without being insulting, then maybe people will listen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Welp, that certainly didn't take long for someone to get condescending.
Try making your point without being insulting, then maybe people will listen.

---

Thanks, but maybe giving an example will help more than to say "no".
Just knowing it will be insulting doesnt help anything to change it if you dont know other words.
And in that part its not my opinion when i say about "classes obsolete" or "running in circles" because its a fact - there are games with no DPS checks and you can run in circles and still wipe hard, same with games where you will wipe when just going in with one class... so what i was trying to say in that sentence is: "if you argue that way, then you have not experienced a game where it did not happen". Is that less insulting? Just give an example please for players who are not good in english speaking...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yukiko

Just give an example please for players who are not good in english speaking...

---

Saying "If you don't agree with me, you don't know anything" seems like it would be insulting in any language. o.o

DPS check is an artificial why to make all roles pull their equal share in the encounter. Healers and tank have a very visual indicator on whether they are good enough for the encounter, dps is less visible so SE added the "DPS Check". If tank can't meet the requirement, wipe. If healers can't keep up, wipe. If dps can't meet the requirement, just takes a very loooong time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

DPS check is an artificial why to make all roles pull their equal share in the encounter. Healers and tank have a very visual indicator on whether they are good enough for the encounter, dps is less visible so SE added the "DPS Check". If tank can't meet the requirement, wipe. If healers can't keep up, wipe. If dps can't meet the requirement, just takes a very loooong time.

---

I wouldn't say its artificial, its really the only way to know if DPS are any good at their jobs.

There are level 60 dps that do less than what I could do at lvl 50.

I don't think they should be removed..they shouldn't be as obnoxious as they can be.

I love how people leave out the equation of some people cheat to win these fights. Se is a lot more lenient on people who use bots to perform thier dps rotation and no telling how many high end Raiders use bots so no having harsh dps checks only breeds more cheaters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whiteroom

DPS check are a mechanic, and an important one, they are just over used and abused by devs.

---

It's only important since the devs make the punishment that much more severe. Not enough strength? Your whole group is f***ed. Thnx for keeping us alive for so long for nothing healers. DPS checks is a poor mans mechanic if you ask me. I can enter that in any game boss and it becomes monotonous and just plain lazy. I understand if a bad guy is charging his ultimate attack and you need to beat him up till he gets interrupted but fighting something fast enough before it decides to explode on you and kill you is stupid. Why? because why don't you f***ing blow up before we even touch you!?

Kill enemies quick before more come in? Why not send the damn horde after us!? You have a move that could wipe us in one move if we take too long to kill you trying our hardest to stay alive? Why didn't you do it before instead of f***ing with us for 15 mins!? DPS check: bad excuse for unimaginative boss fights and limited freedom to experiment.

I see why they did it though. its to make sure premade parties that like to experiment will have a tough time if they have 4 tanks, 2 dps and 2 healers for example. Its to prevent any sort of creative style the players may have so we'd have to play "Their" way. Creativity and fun in battle is forbidden apparently, not for old fights since they gave us an unsync option, thnx for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vlady

I love how people leave out the equation of some people cheat to win these fights. Se is a lot more lenient on people who use bots to perform thier dps rotation and no telling how many high end Raiders use bots so no having harsh dps checks only breeds more cheaters.

---

You think dps checks stop this? Bots are only possible since SE made the bosses so brain dead that they just do the same thing in rotations and hp triggers, making it easy to learn "phases" (man i hate that now). All these fights is like learning a dance, in which there is no danger as long as you memorize it. If SE would stop using repetition in fights instead of random dangers, players would have to learn and improvise for future battles. Bots wouldn't be able to do anything in those fights because it'd never be the same.

Dps checks wouldn't do a thing, its just more dps rotations. bosses that learn from you would fix that easily. Self aware bosses. now that'd be a thing. And yes, insta kill moves would screw you over if that was real, there fault for adding them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurogaea

It's only important since the devs make the punishment that much more severe. Not enough strength? Your whole group is f***ed. Thnx for keeping us alive for so long for nothing healers. DPS checks is a poor mans mechanic if you ask me. I can enter that in any game boss and it becomes monotonous and just plain lazy. I understand if a bad guy is charging his ultimate attack and you need to beat him up till he gets interrupted but fighting something fast enough before it decides to explode on you and kill you is stupid. Why? because why don't you f***ing blow up before we even touch you!?

Kill enemies quick before more come in? Why not send the damn horde after us!? You have a move that could wipe us in one move if we take too long to kill you trying our hardest to stay alive? Why didn't you do it before instead of f***ing with us for 15 mins!? DPS check: bad excuse for unimaginative boss fights and limited freedom to experiment.

I see why they did it though. its to make sure premade parties that like to experiment will have a tough time if they have 4 tanks, 2 dps and 2 healers for example. Its to prevent any sort of creative style the players may have so we'd have to play "Their" way. Creativity and fun in battle is forbidden apparently, not for old fights since they gave us an unsync option, thnx for that.

---

They are not a "Poor mans mechanic", they are a basic mechanic that insures dps be at least somewhat competent in their role. Like I said before, the devs just rely overly much on them. It is a very important mechanic since ensures the dps be on point, the same way a heal check or tank buster type mechanic does for the other too roles.

If your gripe is with there needing to be a reason for it, then it is with the lore behind the check, not the mechanic itself.

Also, all they have to do to allow for "creativity" is to make the check less tight, but with how much the playerbase is babied in this area (dps, but that goes into a whole longer discussion, that will involve parsers and all the fear that comes with it.) I think that's a bad idea. And tbh, I don't find stacking heals and tanks to be creative, just cheesing it.

As far as I'm concerned, they need more dps checks in the form of individual targets so that everyone has to be at least semi capable in their role, rather than a couple dps getting carried through.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Dps checks wouldn't do a thing, its just more dps rotations. bosses that learn from you would fix that easily. Self aware bosses. now that'd be a thing. And yes, insta kill moves would screw you over if that was real, there fault for adding them.

---

kill boss fast or he get too smart = DPS check

A misquote buzzing around your head will cause you to swat around the air to get it to go away. After 5-10 minutes you'll enrage and do the double hand clap and cause an instant death attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cromi_Jobly

A misquote buzzing around your head will cause you to swat around the air to get it to go away. After 5-10 minutes you'll enrage and do the double hand clap and cause an instant death attack.

---

https://38.media.tumblr.com/91de130d...tnjio1_500.gif