PLD would benefit from the ability to battle raise

Right now, if the healer goes down and you don't have a summoner in the party, it's a difficult task of recovering from that situation.

Since PLD can raise outside of battle, it would be very handy to allow them to raise in battle in case this happens, I don't want to make the Job OP, but I feel that it fits in with the lore, and would be handy to have.

I'm sure this would introduce balance issues, so hopefully those could be worked out, I'd just think that there would be a CD on their ability to battle rez, something like 30 minutes, so you get one opportunity to get the healer back up.

Thanks for your time and consideration. :)

It wouldn't work in the same fashion why clemency is bad, main tanking means your cast times will be interrupted, tank swapping would also be cumbersome because of the cd on provoke and it can be a wrench in the spanners for most fights

Small niche use, no Swiftcast, only available as OT, etc.

This seems like a perfect use for Tempered Will, especially for OT/DPSadin. Add a Surecast effect if you really wanted to be using it for MT PLD, I guess, but just adding a toggle that unlocks Raise while Tempered Will is up would be fine for an "oh lord, we're losing" backup plan.

Sure, not having Swiftcast sucks, but a delayed raise is better than no raise at all.

Don't you need my Med II ? smn's bane and monk's fists of fire too, while we're at it ? No thank you.

No, because PLD has effectively unlimited MP and doesn't really use it on anything, so it would completely negate the resource penalty that's supposed to happen when you raise.

Pld's don't need the battle riase, they just need to have skill speed being able to affect their cast times for clemency cause its such a slow cast time for that move.

Edit: Ultimately, pld just needs better chemistry with its own toolkit with cross-class skills needing to be on the back burner but should be looked at some point.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

Don't you need my Med II ? smn's bane and monk's fists of fire too, while we're at it ? No thank you.

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Not at all. Not my objective one bit to make PLD some other job. They can equip raise, but it's useless at this point, so no reason to do so. Would be nice if this was an option, it wouldn't take away from other jobs. My only concern would be the other Tanks might feel unable to help parties recover. And perhaps the answer is to make Phoenix Downs stack-able and usable in battle, with a large CD as well.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

This seems like a perfect use for Tempered Will, especially for OT/DPSadin. Add a Surecast effect if you really wanted to be using it for MT PLD, I guess, but just adding a toggle that unlocks Raise while Tempered Will is up would be fine

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This could work. :)

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

Don't you need my Med II ? smn's bane and monk's fists of fire too, while we're at it ? No thank you.

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... Why would you fight this? Like are you just that married to suddenly needing to throw a massive chunk of MP directly in the garbage because someone missed a splat?
Paladin having battle-raise is a great idea. Weakness already prevents ANY raise from being OP.

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Originally Posted by Kumori_Kumo

... Why would you fight this? Like are you just that married to suddenly needing to throw a massive chunk of MP directly in the garbage because someone missed a splat?
Paladin having battle-raise is a great idea. Weakness already prevents ANY raise from being OP.

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Keeping PLD from accessing swiftcast also means a DPSadin (the only PLD that could really afford to cast Raise) has to spend 8 full seconds casting Raise on the unfortunate DRG who thought he could win a game of chicken with an AOE. That's a pretty significant drop in output for a DPSadin, and it burns half his MP without the benefit of Sheltron rapidly restoring his MP.

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Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

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Another great point! Yeah I'm thinking about it but just not really coming up with any good reason for them not to have it. Fits lore, fits utility, plenty of hard tradeoffs; seems like a no-brainer.

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

This could work. :)

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This, or any of the other several hundred suggestions on the forums, would definitely work... but I wouldn't hold my breath that it will be implemented.

This exact same idea has been spat out (sometimes in the near exact same wording) in about a dozen other forums by a hundred other people. The response has always been the same: Ignore it and hope it goes away. The forum community has given enough Pld feedback to SE about how they might improve Pld utility that they could have rebuilt this job from the ground up by now without having to have done any of the actual brainstorming for themselves, but the closest thing we've ever seen at an attempt to make improvements was removing Shield Swipe off the GCD, a relatively small change with a barely noticeable improvement to single target Dps at the expense of Tp conservation.

I think it's a great idea, without swiftcast it would be a niche skill at best so I don't think balance would be an issue personally.

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Originally Posted by Delmontyb

Since PLD can raise outside of battle, it would be very handy to allow them to raise in battle in case this happens, I don't want to make the Job OP, but I feel that it fits in with the lore, and would be handy to have.

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Given that we already have the skill, I will never even begin to understand how allowing us to stand still for 6+ seconds to cast it in battle can be considered OP... I've posted on this topic before as well, and completely agree about giving PLD battle raise ability. I don't see any potential for a balance issue, and anyone arguing that this would somehow make PLD a second healer is just way off base IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Given that we already have the skill, I will never even begin to understand how allowing us to stand still for 6+ seconds to cast it in battle can be considered OP... I've posted on this topic before as well, and completely agree about giving PLD battle raise ability. I don't see any potential for a balance issue, and anyone arguing that this would somehow make PLD a second healer is just way off base IMHO.

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It's not OP in any way, in fact it's largely useless. The dev team would need to implement, test, and balance it correctly which would be a massive waste of time for something that has a niche use when PLD has other problems that need addressing way more than this.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

It's not OP in any way, in fact it's largely useless. The dev team would need to implement, test, and balance it correctly which would be a massive waste of time for something that has a niche use when PLD has other problems that need addressing way more than this.

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Implement what? It's a simple trait (that already exists for CNJ) on a skill. How much development and testing do you suppose that requires. As for balance, none is needed, it takes a short glacial age to cast and can be interrupted, like Clemency. Your MT isn't likely to be casting a Battle Raise because of that, so it would primarily be an off tank utility. But with the huge cast time and quite large MP use, it's quite balanced enough already. I'm really suspicious of posters who act like giving PLD the battle raise trait would be some huge ordeal for the Developers, or in any way unbalancing to the game or job.Sometimes I think those negative views of the idea are driven by chauvinism for other jobs rather than analysis of the actual impact.

As for the rest of PLDs problems, Let's take another look at the role of Determination. Determination affects damage output, mitigation strength and the strength of incoming cures. If PLD was traited to allow VIT to boost Detemination, and Determination was not such a minor factor in damage calculations, most of PLDs issues would go away overnight, along with the indecision over whether to choose fending or slaying accessories. Additionally, changing Shield/Sword oath so that they are more fluid in use, and taking that fod awful 15s delay off Shield Swipe would do wonders.

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Originally Posted by Februs

the closest thing we've ever seen at an attempt to make improvements was removing Shield Swipe off the GCD, a relatively small change with a barely noticeable improvement to single target Dps at the expense of Tp conservation.

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I know that the theory craft suggests that there is some minor improvement to single target DPS, but I'm not convinced that in actual play, it plays out as predicted. Since you can force blocks pretty effectively, the former Shield Swipe had potential to both boost dps and conserve TP. Now it's of questionable DPS benefit, hurts TP conservation, and ties up two other abilities to force 'proc' the skill as it's cool down ends. I find myself agreeing with those who see the changes to shield swipe as quite detrimental to the skill and job.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Implement what?

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It wouldn't be an OT utility. It would have 2 extremely situational uses:

1.) In a 4man dungeon where you have no SMN, Hallowed and Raise a healer that died for whatever reason instead of wiping and starting over.
2.) In 8man content wherein both healers have died and you have no SMN or the SMN is dead or something, you Raise one of the healers and they try really hard to fix the situation instead of wiping and starting over.

Honestly, sure, implement it, who cares, enjoy your useless crossclass skill being slightly less useless but still ultimately useless. I do not have a clue why PLDs want this so bad, surely focus on... I dunno... your other problems that actually matter and not "can I have this weird niche quality of life change pls?".

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

As for the rest of PLDs problems, Let's take another look at the role of Determination. Determination affects damage output, mitigation strength and the strength of incoming cures.

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Determination only affects damage output.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

your other problems that actually matter

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Such as? PLD's main problem is that it has the worst MT DPS, and slightly worse mitigation than DRK in heavy magic fights; in DPSadin mode PLD is comparable to DRK, and has less issues with threat creep because Savage is built into their main DPS rotation. They also maintain access to their self-heal without having to dip back into tank stance, which has been more useful to me than I'd care to admit.

Edit: I don't think you could really improve PLD's MT DPS without changing core features of the job. FOF is mad strong for its uptime, but giving PLD access to something like Maim or Dark side would just make PLD MT insanely strong (since FOF would still be available to PLD).

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

It wouldn't be an OT utility. It would have 2 extremely situational uses:

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I think it has more than 2 situational uses

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

1.) In a 4man dungeon where you have no SMN, Hallowed and Raise a healer that died for whatever reason instead of wiping and starting over.

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Yes, and? How is this limited? I was not aware that every 4 man group was equipped with a Summoner...or that lacking a summoner was somehow rare.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

2.) In 8man content wherein both healers have died and you have no SMN or the SMN is dead or something, you Raise one of the healers and they try really hard to fix the situation instead of wiping and starting over.

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Personally, I would rather that a PLD who is off tanking take the time out to raise a healer, than have the DPS loss of a Summoner doing the same thing.
Your entire attitude says that a) you won't play PLD, and b) you don't like it either way. You're so dismissive of the ability, and yet you speak out against the idea. Why do you care if you care so little about PLD and those who play it?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Determination only affects damage output.

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Nope. It' is part of the calculation of enmity for Flash, and it also affects incoming cures.

I can't produce a link, but I remember reading (a long time ago) that in addition to impacting the damage done by weapon skills it also factored into anything that STR was used to calculate, so it had an impact on damage blocked and parried. I can't find that link, so I'll have to leave that one where is lays, although logically, it *should* affect both. However since DET's role was nerfed with 3.0, it's entirely possible that even if it did affect blocking/parrying before now, it no longer does.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Nope. It' is part of the calculation of enmity for Flash, and it also affects incoming cures.

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It is a part of the enmity calculation for Flash, however that has nothing to do with damage mitigation or incoming cures. The incoming cure thing is a misunderstanding of the tooltip since 2.0, it affects YOUR OWN cures, not cures on you.

Anyway, just wanted to clear that up. You guys have fun.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

It is a part of the enmity calculation for Flash, however that has nothing to do with damage mitigation or incoming cures. The incoming cure thing is a misunderstanding of the tooltip since 2.0, it affects YOUR OWN cures, not cures on you.

Anyway, just wanted to clear that up. You guys have fun.

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That's great, it's still two more things than just impacting damage as you previously claimed.

Either way, you have fun too. Determination would still make an excellent candidate for a secondary stat that could be used to affect how tanks play and their damage (among other things) is calculated.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I know that the theory craft suggests that there is some minor improvement to single target DPS, but I'm not convinced that in actual play, it plays out as predicted. Since you can force blocks pretty effectively, the former Shield Swipe had potential to both boost dps and conserve TP. Now it's of questionable DPS benefit, hurts TP conservation, and ties up two other abilities to force 'proc' the skill as it's cool down ends. I find myself agreeing with those who see the changes to shield swipe as quite detrimental to the skill and job.

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It depends on the circumstance, but yes. For the most part, taking Shield Swipe off of the GCD was a nerf to Pld's. oGCD Shield Swipe is a Dps increase on single targets. There's no doubt, but the difference is tiny, it only applies to single target Dps, and it comes at a huge cost.

Tp consumption is higher now and Shield Swipe's potency is lower. Both of these things counterbalance the tiny increase seen in oGCD Shield Swipe's Dps increase, because when the Pld runs out of Tp they suffer a greater Dps loss then they gained. Maintaining Shield Swipes at the minimum during such down time is still not a Dps increase, because the potency was nerfed. If the Pld is in a fight in which they can maintain their Tp (such as Thordan, where there is a lot of downtime) then oGCD Shield Swipe is an increase, but in any fight in which they maintain 100% uptime on the boss it is a decrease.

Further, in Mob tanking it always a decrease in Dps and enmity. Over 15s, RoH combined potency is 1220 in which the first move does not grant enmity. GCD Shield Swipe (using bulwark) could replace RoH for a combined potency of 1260 in which every move granted enmity. Further, you could use a combo move in between each Shield Swipe proc to increase Dps and enmity even more. oGCD Shield Swipe cannot do this, and still results in massive Tp drains if the Pld somehow manages to hold enmity using only RoH. It results in reduced enmity and potency. Pld's also have to use Flash more now, which is a 100% reduction in dps over spamming shield swipe.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It wouldn't work in the same fashion why clemency is bad, main tanking means your cast times will be interrupted, tank swapping would also be cumbersome because of the cd on provoke and it can be a wrench in the spanners for most fights

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A wrench IS a spanner.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It wouldn't work in the same fashion why clemency is bad, main tanking means your cast times will be interrupted, tank swapping would also be cumbersome because of the cd on provoke and it can be a wrench in the spanners for most fights

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Only if we had access to Surecast.

yes, paladin should be able to use raise in battle. and you don't have to argue at all, because it has nothing to do with the paladin

it has something to do with the whm ^^/

if the paladin can use raise in battle the whm will get a new trait instead of the useless battle-raise trait wich does nothing else than preventing the paladin from raise in battle... so yeah, this will probably buff the whm more than the pld. yes please ^__^

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Originally Posted by Tint

yes, paladin should be able to use raise in battle. and you don't have to argue at all, because it has nothing to do with the paladin

it has something to do with the whm ^^/

if the paladin can use raise in battle the whm will get a new trait instead of the useless battle-raise trait wich does nothing else than preventing the paladin from raise in battle... so yeah, this will probably buff the whm more than the pld. yes please ^__^

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The new trait would reduce Raise's cast time to like 7 seconds instead of 8 like they did with Stoneskin or something like that tho :'D I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

On the topic of battle raising for PLD, I think it would be an okay utility thing, but I also think PLD needs other fixes to their party support, which is the way the dev team seemed to be heading with the 3.0 skills but sort of sucked at implementing.

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, because PLD has effectively unlimited MP and doesn't really use it on anything, so it would completely negate the resource penalty that's supposed to happen when you raise.

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I'm against it too, but honestly, he suggested a 30 minute cooldown. That...that wouldn't be overpowered. It wouldn't even make them the preferred Tank, just give an option.

Phoenix Down should be readily available and useable in battle by everyone. What kind of FF game doesn't allow the entire party to use a cheap stock of phoenix down? It makes a good emergency recovery anyway.

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Originally Posted by Callback

Phoenix Down should be readily available and useable in battle by everyone. What kind of FF game doesn't allow the entire party to use a cheap stock of phoenix down? It makes a good emergency recovery anyway.

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I have to admit that I was a little disappointed back when I first started playing this game that the items have such a pitiful role. My old FF instincts had me stockpiling healing items ... only to find out that they weren't really useful at all (aside from using Ether's as part of a caster rotation to extend their Dmg potency).

This is a bit of a side note, but I really want Chemist to be the next healer role to enter the game, just to bring back some of that old school Final Fantasy feeling. Maybe they could mix their own tonics or something, I dunno. I just think it would be cool to have a job that actually got some use out of healing items, even if they weren't stock healing items like potions or phoenix downs.