Bring back interesting trash packs in savage!

I know most will probably disagree with me, but I was actually horribly disappointed when I learned that Faust (ew) is the only trash in the entirety of alexander savage.

I wanted to see the goblins at the start of A2 have something neat, or have an interesting mechanic to get past the randomly generated steam room before faust. Or even something cool with the giant scorpion in A3.

Maybe SE was just too lazy to put in 'shortcuts' this time around (which would also be a necessity if they brought trash back), but I really hope this won't become the norm. :( There were so many cool points in coil outside of boss fights that were so much fun, especially with goofing off trying to get your static teammates killed and what have you.

eh no thanks, its amusing maybe the first 5 or so times you do it but honestly at the end of the day i just want to get to my boss fight and not waste time, my static only gets to raid for like 2 hours twice a week, and we're stuck badly on A3s still so for me it would just become annoying.

doesnt help either that A2s is litterally a 10 minute long trash fight...dont think we need even more trash for that one :P

the trash we longed for

Yeah i am going with no thanks here. First few times may be interesting, after that its just adding on more time to raids.

Nope. A2s is already the trash mob packs floor. No thanks.

I'd prefer the "raids" in this game actually be designed as raids tbh, i'm not seeing much difference in design between doing Alex and a super buffed Trial fight outside of A2s currently.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

I'd prefer the "raids" in this game actually be designed as raids tbh, i'm not seeing much difference in design between doing Alex and a super buffed Trial fight outside of A2s currently.

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In fact, savage raid is A1s+A2s+A3s+A4s. The whole floors are the raid with checkpoints between each floor during 1 week.

That's why a trial fight has nothing to do with alex.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

I'd prefer the "raids" in this game actually be designed as raids tbh, i'm not seeing much difference in design between doing Alex and a super buffed Trial fight outside of A2s currently.

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That's because it saves a lot of time (thus money) doing it the way it is now. It works in their favor that a lot of people also don't want pointless trash pulls. The only way that trash pulls stop actually being pointless is to make them a big part of the raid itself. This is something that Dynamis from FFXI was infamous for. The trash was practically the main target of going there. Each of them had a small chance to drop endgame loot, endgame currency, and, in the process of killing off trash packs, you'd kill mobs that provided some sort of benefit to the raid, which included time extensions.

A lot of us are rather hopeful that the airship content will be something along the lines of this, due to the fact that the loot drops varied ilvl loot depending on their rarity/difficulty to obtain a chest. It'll be extremely lame if it's basically expected to average 1-3 random tiered equip in total obtained per raid, assuming a weekly lockout as well. Hoo boy will that situation be a huge disappointment.

As an example, T2 trash mobs was a core mechanic, and it was interesting.

But A2/A3 normal trash mobs are useless and boring.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

That's because it saves a lot of time (thus money) doing it the way it is now. It works in their favor that a lot of people also don't want pointless trash pulls. The only way that trash pulls stop actually being pointless is to make them a big part of the raid itself. This is something that Dynamis from FFXI was infamous for. The trash was practically the main target of going there. Each of them had a small chance to drop endgame loot, endgame currency, and, in the process of killing off trash packs, you'd kill mobs that provided some sort of benefit to the raid, which included time extensions.

A lot of us are rather hopeful that the airship content will be something along the lines of this, due to the fact that the loot drops varied ilvl loot depending on their rarity/difficulty to obtain a chest. It'll be extremely lame if it's basically expected to average 1-3 random tiered equip in total obtained per raid, assuming a weekly lockout as well. Hoo boy will that situation be a huge disappointment.

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Oh i know and I'm in that same boat, that doesn't change the fact that what they call "raids" in this game barely pass as such.

It's a shame that a few of the turns in the BCoB series (Turns 1, 2, 7, 8, 10, 11) were closer to what most would consider classic raid design, if anything Alexander feels like a step backwards. Personally I'd be all for a Dynamis / Limbus / Nyzul style trash fix for current and future raid content, i mean it's not like they cant make them drop TT cards, housing mats, or crafting / upgrade materials based on their difficulty.

But I'm aware that's just a pipe dream at this point.

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Originally Posted by Khyan

As an example, T2 trash mobs was a core mechanic, and it was interesting.

But A2/A3 normal trash mobs are useless and boring.

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Only boring because they're useless, make them worth something and people will start to care.

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Originally Posted by Khyan

In fact, savage raid is A1s+A2s+A3s+A4s. The whole floors are the raid with checkpoints between each floor during 1 week.

That's why a trial fight has nothing to do with alex.

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From a design perspective making them broken up trials still doesn't make them different from trials, if a primal gauntlet were released with similar mechanics / difficulty as the current highest Savage fights there would literally be no difference in content labels.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

Only boring because they're useless, make them worth something and people will start to care.

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It would be even more boring in A2S since the fight is already a trash mob pack fight with mechanics. I think actual floors aren't designed with trash mobs in mind. Maybe in A5+.

Maybe it's just cause I'm a MNK, but I hate having to clear waves of trash mobs... And just making the ones we have matter more, wouldn't change my mind on that.

I rather have something like Faust, but at the same time, he isn't really anything fun...

Like have been mentioned, T2 had the only meaningful and kinda fun trash mobs. I mean, they altered the final fight, and they weren't just some random trash that wasn't related to the boss at all. IMO the best overall raid design yet. It wasn't the best looking one, and definitely not the best boss fight, but I want them to do something similar in new Alex Savages. (ofc don't mean the enrage strat)

I dont see trash interesting in whole FFXIV game, so I am not supporting this idea.
I enjoyed trash in vanilla wow, where it gives live to dungeon, there were patrols, multiple pack together agroing, different handling of different mobs etc. Yes in other hand it was annoying to kill trash for one hour until you reach boss but, it gives life to raids/dungeons/structures.

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Originally Posted by LunnaRavenheart

I dont see trash interesting in whole FFXIV game, so I am not supporting this idea.
I enjoyed trash in vanilla wow, where it gives live to dungeon, there were patrols, multiple pack together agroing, different handling of different mobs etc. Yes in other hand it was annoying to kill trash for one hour until you reach boss but, it gives life to raids/dungeons/structures.

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I agree work this. The trash in dungeons and raids in this game is boring and pointless other than slowing you down a few minutes here and there. I hardly ever feel threatened by any trash pulls (save occasionally bees... hate Final Sting, it's a cheap mechanic).

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Yeah i am going with no thanks here. First few times may be interesting, after that its just adding on more time to raids.

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This is why we will never get bigger funner raids. This mentality.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

This is why we will never get bigger funner raids. This mentality.

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Adding trash does not increase the fun, just the time it takes to get it over with.

I hope they keep trash out of the future raids too. it doesn't serve a purpose, and most people are against it.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

Adding trash does not increase the fun, just the time it takes to get it over with.

I hope they keep trash out of the future raids too. it doesn't serve a purpose, and most people are against it.

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But trash pulls, when done properly, can well serve the same purpose as the DPS and healing checks we get on bosses right now, case in point: Faust on Savage, while not trash, serves this purpose as well. Trash can also be set up in ways that require group strategies you will needed on boss mechanics, i.e. splitting groups between tanks, making sure tanks are grabbing the proper sets of adds, making sure that DPS is prioritizing kills properly.

The way it is seen now is that trash mobs are just that, throw away encounters just there to slow you down a little, that you rush in and zerg so you can move on to the interesting parts of the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

Adding trash does not increase the fun, just the time it takes to get it over with.

I hope they keep trash out of the future raids too. it doesn't serve a purpose, and most people are against it.

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You don't want a raid you want a trial. Trash in between stuff didn't have to be pointless they could make them drop rare mats as well as chests that have a chance of giving you a gear piece from that raid. Could also make it if you clear side stuff extra chests.

They don't even have to put the stuff in story just put it in the high end stuff.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

But trash pulls, when done properly, can well serve the same purpose as the DPS and healing checks we get on bosses right now, case in point: Faust on Savage, while not trash, serves this purpose as well. Trash can also be set up in ways that require group strategies you will needed on boss mechanics, i.e. splitting groups between tanks, making sure tanks are grabbing the proper sets of adds, making sure that DPS is prioritizing kills properly.

The way it is seen now is that trash mobs are just that, throw away encounters just there to slow you down a little, that you rush in and zerg so you can move on to the interesting parts of the dungeon.

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I fear wer in the generation of gameing where people don't want to do work.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

I fear wer in the generation of gameing where people don't want to do work.

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Sadly yes. Which is a shame... Some of the best victories I've had while raiding in other games actually came from the moment we got a particularly difficult trash pull down and really learned how to do it. My favorite, of course, is learning that in Tower of Orthanc (LotRO) in the Shadow Wing that we would easily kill the second trash pull if we just ran straight from the first to the second without stopping to plan... Ironic that it worked that way, but we got a running joke from it where of we ever sat around too long we'd start saying, "Too much planning, we're going to die." Pretty funny, but it was just something special for our group and it came from trash, and not a boss.

The lack of trash has been around for all endgame raiding.

t1: Had lots of trash, but 90% of parties just had a tank pull and die so they could be skipped.
t2: No trash.
t3: Trampolines. That is all.
t4: Similar to A2S. No trash pulls, but trash for a "boss"
t5: No trash.

t6: 2 trash pulls.
t7: Annoying trash pulls pugs complained about.
t8: Minor trash, skip rest if you know how to not push doors too early.
t9: No trash.

t10: Skipable trash.
t11: See t7.
t12: No trash.
t13: No trash.

Now we have Alexander.

A1: Faust
A1S: Faust.
A2: See t7 and t11. "Trash" for boss as well.
A2S: "Trash" for boss.
A3: As a healer, I hate this trash the most. Freaken poisons on everyone. >:c
A3S: No trash.
A4: No trash.
A4S: No trash.

Savage "trash" (basically Faust) does not save your progress the way Coil did. If you left A1S without clearing, you have to fight Faust again, meaning any trash in the other turns would have been more annoying than anything if they existed. I'm glad Savage doesn't have extra trash. You're doing Savage to fight harder bosses and get 210 gear, not deal with Goblins that hit harder for no reason.

Trash would only work in savage if they re-introduce shortcuts, but I don't think that would coincide with the forced party composition this cyce(mechanics that make raids REQUIRE 2 tanks/2 healers) as every group would single tank trash for more dps then switch back for real boss.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Sadly yes. Which is a shame... Some of the best victories I've had while raiding in other games actually came from the moment we got a particularly difficult trash pull down and really learned how to do it. My favorite, of course, is learning that in Tower of Orthanc (LotRO) in the Shadow Wing that we would easily kill the second trash pull if we just ran straight from the first to the second without stopping to plan... Ironic that it worked that way, but we got a running joke from it where of we ever sat around too long we'd start saying, "Too much planning, we're going to die." Pretty funny, but it was just something special for our group and it came from trash, and not a boss.

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I only did dysmanis in ffxi to me that was fun never mad it to any of the bosses there and only did it a total of 3 times still best fun I had in that game. Never made it to sea and sky sadly due to how the story set up was needing a full party to do any of the story battles there.

Bosses have enought gear/dps check to put trash mobs before the encounter.

The only reason tu put trash mob is for increase the time wasted during raids an probably an useful loot. FFXIV trash mob haven't loot so...My answer is not thanks.

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Originally Posted by rappa

Bosses have enought gear/dps check to put trash mobs before the encounter.

The only reason tu put trash mob is for increase the time wasted during raids an probably an useful loot. FFXIV trash mob haven't loot so...My answer is not thanks.

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But here's the thing, as I said before, you can use that trash to move those checks -off- of the bosses. The effect of this is twofold, 1) boss fights immediately become less grueling, 2) the whole of the raid becomes more challenging and worthwhile. The gear at the end becomes a result of beating the whole raid, not just the boss. And if done right, the raid won't be any longer than it currently is.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

This is why we will never get bigger funner raids. This mentality.

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Yeah becuase having pointless trash before a boss is really a "mentality" now isnt it. Turn 1 and 6 may have done it well, but alexander certainly hasnt, neither did final coils.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

You don't want a raid you want a trial. Trash in between stuff didn't have to be pointless they could make them drop rare mats as well as chests that have a chance of giving you a gear piece from that raid. Could also make it if you clear side stuff extra chests.

They don't even have to put the stuff in story just put it in the high end stuff.

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And this isnt what was being put forward in the OP. What is being talked about is trash being there for the sake of being there. No mention of changing trash to be more than trash, and being a functional aspect of the raid which drop mats or loot.

I wouldn't call the trash packs "interesting" in FFxiv's raiding.

Well, I suppose the crystal tower's packs were interesting enough, but coil, and now alexander's trash are just boring "deeps that" thingies.

Correct me if I'm wrong as I was not playing MMOs back then, but didn't the term "Raid" come about because in Everquest you gathered a large group (~72) players in order to make a quick attack on the various targets within and then get out of (i.e. "Raid") a dangerous location?

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Correct me if I'm wrong as I was not playing MMOs back then, but didn't the term "Raid" come about because in Everquest you gathered a large group (~72) players in order to make a quick attack on the various targets within and then get out of (i.e. "Raid") a dangerous location?

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Yes, but those were unorganized and didn't really have a format. You just got in and did whatever and the goal was set by the players and the reward was whatever you got out of it. WoW introduced raiding as an organized attack on a specific target with specific goals and rewards. It took something that was a thing people were doing randomly on their own and made it an official activity. Of course, when you are 'raiding' a target, you don't just rush in and attack that target without opposition. Usually it's a battle all the way to the target (of difficulty appropriate to the final battle) and then you beat the target and get out.

I'm okay with trash if it drops something (like BoEs in WoW raids). Trash that's only there to be annoying and add extra time is stupid, however.

FFXIV raids don't feel like raids, but it's not because they lack interesting trash, it's because they're broken down into so many zones. "Raiding" 1 room doesn't exactly feel very grandiose. CT was the closest thing to a legit raid this game has, and even that was an illusion (see all this tower space you CAN'T visit?). Void Ark looks like it will try to emulate CT. BCoB is a close second, but the rooms still feel a bit small. I get Alex is inside a tiny robot, but I wish they would've made the inside larger. Naxx was inside a tiny building, but it didn't feel that way.

It's a shame the less viable raids (CT) feel more epic than the legit challenging ones we spend so much time in.