Savage - A1/2 vs A3/4 - To big of a jump?

I've been running a raid group for some time, and while we are not a 'server first' group we typically do not have any trouble getting the job done. That was up until we hit A3. This seems to actually be a very common trend with other various groups I have talked to in that they just hit a wall with A3 savage. Now, I do understand the idea was to make the new endgame raid content more difficult to give more a challenge but uhh.. Yea, its a bit overkill.



I've even been seeing a large trend in PF's recruiting new people for savage groups due to 1-3 members holding a group back. Lets face it, not everyone is a genius with a 402340 IQ. I don't want to be forced on removing members because even though they are good, they are not great.

Currently the difficulty on my fictional scale seems to be as followed
Alex Normal - all - difficulty - 1
Alex Savage - F1 - difficulty - 4
Alex Savage - F2 - difficulty - 5
Alex Savage - F3 - difficulty - 8
Alex Savage - F4 - difficulty - idk 9?

That's just a personal feel to give you an idea of how i view the spike in difficulty.


With that being said, I do question if A3/4 savage was the right place to increase the difficulty spike so heavily and I actually do have another idea that has been generally well accepted when I've talked about it with fellows raiders.

Why not create 1 more additional raid content that is truly savage? Maybe change current savage to "hard" and have a 3rd endgame content that is "savage". Bring the difficulty of A3S and A4S on my scale down to 6 and 7 respectively, and create a new raid with difficulty of 10. (yes make it harder).

With that being said, A common thing i've heard is "but i don't wanna see 3 versions of the same fight". Which is very understandable. So idea! Why not make a "Crystal Tower (savage)" 8 man fights. There would obviously need to be a fair amount of re-working involved, but hey, why not? Would just simply need to use the 4 bosses in LotA for current. 1 instance per boss. 4 total fights. When next ilvl/new raids comes out, use ST, and when 3rd series comes out, use WoD.

This would obviously create a "demand" or "reason to do these fights" issue, specifically with gear drops. You had a great system with 2nd/final coil in terms of gear progression. I think you made a GREAT improvement with the weekly tokens and standardizing how the slots drop floor specific. I actually would like to see this remain the same. What I would propose is new gear dropped from this savage mode.

Considering the extreme difficulty, specially if it was made harder, why not give them better gear? Currently the ilvl for weekly tomes is 200, and the max from raid is 210. Next patch I'm going to assume, from the trend of previous patches, you'll release 220 and 230 gear. Well, why not release the 220 gear with the savage mode? Sure they will be slightly ahead in stats for a short while, till the next ilvl increase, in which case they would just be ahead of the curve for future patches. But only that patch. (in theory? long term effects might skew in their favor?)

Considering the very small amount of people currently clearing A3, let alone the 4(?) groups that have cleared A4, I don't much see a problem with them having slightly higher ilvl gear. I don't think it would be game breaking for those super exceptional people to have slightly better gear for a short time. I also think it would benefit the "casual" endgame raiders like myself to not get so frustrated.

Either way, just an idea. Figure i'd throw it out there.

A1S and A2S should've been made mechanically more difficult.
They've gotten ridiculously easy due to more and better gear and don't offer much of a challenge anymore.

Whilst A3S and A4S "suddenly" recquire the flawless execution we're used to from Coil.

This is meant to be savage. If your group is not capable of doing it , then savage is not for you . I know I've never entered savage

Im perfectly fine with this hump. A good motivation for all in our group to "git gud" as we're currently progressing on A3S. It is a turn which will require several weeks for an average John Doe Raidgroup to clear it. Our goal is to clear it before 3.1 hits, then A4S will come which we wanna clear before 3.2 hits with a new raid :) A1S/A2S were both very bring, but A3S is definitely fun with all that stuff happening.

Thats pretty much my point. Floor one and two are fairly simple, and on par with coil. Historically my group took roughly 10 hours to learn 6-8 and 10-12 and about 15-20 hours to learn 9 and 13. After that we typicay went 1 for 1 save for the random d/c or screw up. This is about how long A1 and A2 took. We are currently at twenty hours and still working on add phase.

While i do understand the difficult spike, and the need for harder content, i do not feel they implemented it in the correct way. They have 50% of the series being on par with normal coil and the other half being on par with savage coil. I just feel the difficulty shouldnt be split half way thru the series of events like that.

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Originally Posted by Metterschlingel

Im perfectly fine with this hump. A good motivation for all in our group to "git gud" as we're currently progressing on A3S. It is a turn which will require several weeks for an average John Doe Raidgroup to clear it. Our goal is to clear it before 3.1 hits, then A4S will come which we wanna clear before 3.2 hits with a new raid :) A1S/A2S were both very bring, but A3S is definitely fun with all that stuff happening.

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That is pretty much my mindset with my group also in terms of time to kill but my big issue is if they are going to nerf A3S and A4S. Or if they are going to start handing out welfare upgrade items from hunts/VA and make the point of doing these turns fairly moot. I'm sure you can see my need for concern as they typically like to see people able to hit max ilvl before next ilvl increase comes into play.

I'm pretty sure they said they don't plan on ever merging AS via echo or what not. It's not meant for everyone.

I'm sure they'll release the upgrade items eventually but that doesn't make the turns moot. I know a ton of people who just want that Gobwalker mount really badly

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Originally Posted by Ashelia_Ferron

I'm pretty sure they said they don't plan on ever merging AS via echo or what not. It's not meant for everyone.

I'm sure they'll release the upgrade items eventually but that doesn't make the turns moot. I know a ton of people who just want that Gobwalker mount really badly

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Unless they plan to add an iLv sync, more gear will from later patches will be an Echo.

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Originally Posted by MrTherm

Why not create 1 more additional raid content that is truly savage? Maybe change current savage to "hard" and have a 3rd endgame content that is "savage".

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Let's make 9 different difficulties. Or how about 15? Yeah, a different difficulty for every type of player. You can get a slider to adjust the AI, or better yet, you can actually pick which attacks the boss will use. Yeah, a sorta "Final Fantasy Raid Maker." Gimme a break.

You aren't good so you whine that you didn't get to experience story in coil. So SE caters to you and gives you Alexander normal. Now you whine some more that SAVAGE is too hard. SAVAGE!!!

You want something in between. But then what? After that, you'll find something else to complain about. You want the same gear that savage players get, or who knows.

Related to the OP's topic, I've always wondered why Yoshi P created Savage with the sole purpose of making it *even harder* than Coil (Unnerfed)?

(Note: Our group had T13 on farm before echo, but we're not close to any kind of "world records" or anything.)

Yoshi P has continually stated how he wants FF XIV to be accessible to all; to make sure it's easier for players to see the content, etc.

I totally get that the hardest of the hardcore want challenging content, or else they'd get bored and leave, but to this day I still run into players (from 2.0 era) who haven't cleared Turn 13.

It just felt weird that with all that talk about "casual" and "accessibility" that he goes and makes Alexander even harder than Coil? :confused:

It almost feels like the Combat Team is making new difficulty settings just to cater to the Hardest Core groups only, but if 99% of the player base can't clear it, is that ideal?

What's going to happen as new End Game Raids come out over time? Will the combat team keep upping the ante so that now it might take Lucrezia or other World's First groups... 2 - 3 MONTHS to clear? Which means the average End Game static would take 9 Months or more? (obviously it'd be nerfed by then, but as an example...)

It would be nice to hear from the Dev Team as to their philosophy on this.

I guess too many teams were clearing T13 pre-nerfs. Or maybe it's because the very best raid teams completed them too fast. Be as it may, there will be way less Savage Alex completees than their Coil counterparts if this keeps up. It's pretty sad a lot of decent/good groups are breaking at A3S, when it's not even the last raid.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Yoshi P has continually stated how he wants FF XIV to be accessible to all; to make sure it's easier for players to see the content, etc.

It just felt weird that with all that talk about "casual" and "accessibility" that he goes and makes Alexander even harder than Coil? :confused:

It almost feels like the Combat Team is making new difficulty settings just to cater to the Hardest Core groups only, but if 99% of the player base can't clear it, is that ideal?

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I don't find it odd at all; it's not meant for casual players. The game is accessible for people. The upgrade is for people who have been asking for more challenging stuff. Are you saying that SE should ignore a portion of their fan base because you don't like it? It looks like to me they are trying to provide options for many types of players. You have people who live to pvp, people who love story, 24/7 raiders, crafters, etc.
Let me be clear. I will probably never do Alex savage. I'm good but not that good. I don't, however, see the point in complaining about the difficulty level. SE wanted something that the players had to work to get to, and there is a part of the fans asking for that very thing. There is nothing wrong with that. If they want to make content that players have to work to get better at, that should be applauded. I'm glad people are finding it so difficult; people tend to appreciate things more when they have to work for them. :)

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Yoshi P has continually stated how he wants FF XIV to be accessible to all; to make sure it's easier for players to see the content, etc.

I totally get that the hardest of the hardcore want challenging content, or else they'd get bored and leave, but to this day I still run into players (from 2.0 era) who haven't cleared Turn 13.

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There is no need to make every content accessible for everyone. It doesn't even have story. It is meant to be super-difficult. On the other side, it isn't nintendo-hard. :D Also, if you are not good enough you don't have to clear it now but can wait for gear upgrades.

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Originally Posted by Metterschlingel

There is no need to make every content accessible for everyone. It doesn't even have story. It is meant to be super-difficult. On the other side, it isn't nintendo-hard. :D Also, if you are not good enough you don't have to clear it now but can wait for gear upgrades.

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I think your miss-understanding the point. Its not about the difficulty being to hard, its about where they placed the difficulty spike. A1S+A2S are very close to old coil, and A3S+A4S are a bit of a new breed of difficulty. Having two completely separate difficulties in the same series just makes little to no sense. The mid-core raiders can do A1S+A2S rather easily while they will suffer in A3S+A4S. This wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't all in a sense share the same ilvl gear. I understand they tried to balance it with body/legs/weapon being in later turns as they do have greater stats on them, but it really doesn't feel right and/or balanced.

My other issue is that a lot of groups that are attempting A3S have found 1-2 members that have issues with a certain mechanic. And sometimes its the entire group, just with separate mechanics, but often times that 1 or 2 members gets singled out and 'banished' from the raid group. While this is fairly common with endgame communities, the amount of PF's I've been seeing and from other raid leaders I've spoken to, the amount that this is happening is STAGGERING.

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Originally Posted by MrTherm

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they already stated, that a1+2 have final coil difficulty and a3+4 have 2nd coil savage difficulty, its all working as intended

ff14 is a theme park

alex normal for bad - casual people
a1+2 savage for casual - semi hardcore people
a3+4 for hardcore raider

ignore that double post xD

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

they already stated, that a1+2 have final coil difficulty and a3+4 have 2nd coil savage difficulty, its all working as intended

ff14 is a theme park

alex normal for bad - casual people
a1+2 savage for casual - semi hardcore people
a3+4 for hardcore raider

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I do understand that its "working as intended" but my issue is that the "intended" could be done a better way.

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Originally Posted by MrTherm

I do understand that its "working as intended" but my issue is that the "intended" could be done a better way.

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You're right, the better way would have been to make A1S and A2S just as hard A3S and A4S. Then we would have only had to worry about two difficulties, story and raid.

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Originally Posted by Pots_Talos

You're right, the better way would have been to make A1S and A2S just as hard A3S and A4S. Then we would have only had to worry about two difficulties, story and raid.

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The problem with that becomes that story mode is just that. For story. The difficulty is a joke+1. So what happens to the mid-core raiders? What becomes their purpose to log on and play?

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Originally Posted by MrTherm

The problem with that becomes that story mode is just that. For story. The difficulty is a joke+1. So what happens to the mid-core raiders? What becomes their purpose to log on and play?

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a1+a2 savage

if this is working as intended they need to fire everyone who created it.

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Originally Posted by AnimaS

if this is working as intended they need to fire everyone who created it.

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Or at least use one of those barrels full of cash from all the minion sales to hire more poeple to create more content

People complaining that they're doing content for a small percentage of the population only need to stop being so entitled.

They already gave away the story bit, the bosses are thematically the same and the only real reward you get to show for it is dyable armor and a mount.

It's a harder version of the fight for people who are interested in doing harder content, the only exclusivity is the difficulty. If you don't like it don't do it.

If you want more easier content, ask for that, don't ask for a reduction of what is currently a measly 4 (2 really, A1S and A2S are not that "inaccessible") bosses each 6 months for those who are interested in progression.

I'm going to be real with you OP: Not only do I think they should not touch Alexander Savage in ANY way, I also feel that the method they used for Alex Normal should have been in Coil since the beginning. However, I understand why they did what they did, when they did.

To be fair, I have very little interest (atm) in the content that those endgame elitist overlords (AKA "Ensidian E-Sports Contract Seekers" as I like to call them) do, but I for one would not deny them such a challenge. And furthermore, I don't mind if it takes people ages to get more A4S clears. At this point in the game, the fewer groups that have cleared A4S, the better IMO. It gives them the ability to say they're the good wheat cut from the chaff - the chaff in this case being the few who demand instant rewards and easy faceroll BS.

If I had but one complaint, I would say this: the mindsets of the endgame elitist overlords should not seep into territory below that. In addition, I do believe that they should have Savage Modes for both ARR and HW Primals. People are complaining that Bis/Rav EX aren't hard enough (at least on my server) - IMO I'm agreeing with them somewhat. It feels a lot like EX is going to become the new Hard Mode if they don't go and draw lines here. Or just go and call the "Normal" modes what they actually are: "Easy Mode".

In any case, give them a little more to do so that later on, I can have content that I will want to actually test my mettle on - even if such content would be irrelevant gear-wise.

OP - That's what normal mode alexander is there for....the 99 percent of people that can't do savage. Most of the game is accessible...The dungeons, the primals, alexander normal, (24 man when it's released). The only content that can be considered hardcore is AS3/4 (1-2 are more like old coil difficulty). If anything I think the main complaint that everyone has is there isn't enough dungeons, raids, etc...not the difficulty.

Don't get it. If A3S is too hard, stick to story mode, that is the exact reason it is there?

I think some of you are missing the point. Its not the fact that its "to difficult" that I have a problem with. Its the rapid spike of difficulty between story(joke) to A1S/A2S to A3S/A4S, specifically between the 1/2 and 3/4.

I just don't understand why they made the first half of the savage content so easy and the second half so difficult. There is just a problem with the inconsistency in the difficulty. As person above said "they need to draw a line somewhere" (to lazy to quote) well, why did they draw the line in the middle of the savage content?

There is a problem with A3S in that it enforces certain group set ups to clear without waiting more weeks/months to gear up. Our group is having major problems with DPS checks that we didn't have before.

Our group set up: PLD WAR MNK NIN SMN BRD WHM SCH
Optimal group set up: DRK WAR DRG NIN BLM BRD WHM SCH

We have a far from optimal set up we always having dps issues we lack a lot of burst dps and no group buff synergy (drg buffing bard, drg giving crit buff for burst ect), getting past hand of pain is hard so that we have to have both tanks use slaying accessories, and use the limit break, while the dps use all their cooldowns. That leads us into the adds phase where we just do not have the dps to kill the adds.

Changes that could be made, it would require 3 people changing jobs, pld->drk, mnk->drg, and smn->blm, to get the cookie cutter set up that everyone is using. However we are not going to do that because we have several weeks of esoterics.

Game shouldn't be set up in such a way that using one certain group set up which the community has determined the best cuts off so much time to clearing the zone.

As someone who always enjoyed Coil and always tried to clear every tier before Echo, I'm really disappointed with the way Savage has been implemented. It's an order of magnitude more difficult and stringent than Coil was in ARR, and I'm now left without suitable raid content. People can say all they want that Savage isn't meant for everyone, and that's fine, but there were a lot of players that could clear Coil that don't find the increase in difficulty for Savage enjoyable.

What about those of us that can easily clear Normal and still want a challenge? We used to have raid content that was relatively accessible but still difficult. Now we only have the very easy and accessible Normal and the exclusionary Savage.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

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That's not a composition issue, but a player issue.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Our group set up: PLD WAR MNK NIN SMN BRD WHM SCH
Optimal group set up: DRK WAR DRG NIN BLM BRD WHM SCH.

Game shouldn't be set up in such a way that using one certain group set up which the community has determined the best cuts off so much time to clearing the zone.

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What the hell? Groups have downed A3s with that set up.....this is clearly a player issue.
http://i.imgur.com/OsBEBbL.png LOOK AT THAT same composition as you guys, except your posting on the forums complaining to the world about how its impossible with your composition in the words of the all powerful and wise Yoshi-P "Get Good"

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...n-Thread/page8

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Originally Posted by Sedation

That's not a composition issue, but a player issue.

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I really doubt that seeing how beat every other coil pre nerf and pre catch up patch. Just hitting walls with dps checks on A3 have no issue with mechanics otherwise. We raid about 2 hours a week though so if it doesn't get done in that time then it won't get done.

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LOOK AT THAT same composition as you guys, except your posting on the forums complaining to the world about how its impossible with your composition in the words of the all powerful and wise Yoshi-P "Get Good"

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...n-Thread/page8

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I looked though that post I see 1 group with that set up beat it. I am probably like one of the best players that plays paladin out there so player skill on my part isn't the issue. Most of the groups do have stuff like a drg which offers you higher group dps and makes the fight easier.

Zumi, your group isnt playing optimally then. We can pass the Hand-DPS check even with MNK, BRD, SMN, SMN (our dps setups vary on who is available each week) without LB. A3S is the first relevant encounter in the game which shows you how bad you really are and that you have to "git gud". Nobody cares about any coil stuff anymore and if you cleared it prenerf or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I looked though that post I see 1 group with that set up beat it. I am probably like one of the best players that plays paladin out there so player skill on my part isn't the issue. Most of the groups do have stuff like a drg which offers you higher group dps and makes the fight easier.

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I literally found that example on my servers last a3s kill on the progression thread. I DIDNT EVEN LOOK. I understand players like you need to keep finding excuses to make yourselves feel better.

This is not coil anymore. A3S is harder then any fight coil offered (excluding Savage coil in i110)

Here you want to see that its player skill holding you back? http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#boss=20&metric=speed go through as many groups as possible , there's quite a few groups that downed it with your setup, weeks ago, meaning they had less gear then you do.

Better yet prove to us right now, your group is performing optimally post a parse of your groups dps at HOP, and I will guarantee you, you guys are not performing to standard.

Before we start comparing parses, i think everyone missed an important thing Zumi said. They only do raids for 2 hours a week. Its very understandable for them to be having difficulty in A3S. There is a lot of mechanics to learn in that fight and it does require a lot of time to practice. How many hours have most clear groups put in towards progression?

Zumi's group seems to be a good example of how the lack of "mid-core" content is effecting raiders. Well. Maybe its just lack of content in general. Still underwhelmed at the amount of content in HW.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Our group set up: PLD WAR MNK NIN SMN BRD WHM SCH
Optimal group set up: DRK WAR DRG NIN BLM BRD WHM SCH

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqnwxWjQGI4

Good luck out there.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqnwxWjQGI4

Good luck out there.

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That's some good PLD dps.

The reason the difficulty spike is so high in A3S is that it is the first fight in this game that has a mechanic check, a healer check, multiple tight dps checks, and a tank check. Every other fight failed to bring these together, and because it brings all of this together, it is IMO the best fight in the game. It is literally a static killer just because it will show you the weak link in your group very very fast.

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Originally Posted by Skapoc

The reason the difficulty spike is so high in A3S is that it is the first fight in this game that has a mechanic check, a healer check, multiple tight dps checks, and a tank check. Every other fight failed to bring these together, and because it brings all of this together, it is IMO the best fight in the game. It is literally a static killer just because it will show you the weak link in your group very very fast.

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Not trying to be an ashat but you are just beating a dead horse with that one and its a bit off topic of the point i was trying (and failed it seems) to make.

Short recap of thread - they didn't make enough content endgame content regardless of its for casual/mid/high tier players. They didn't separate the mid/high tier content so a lot of high end raiders complain about the joke that is A1S/A2S and mid tier cry that they can't do A3S-A4S. More and properly separated content would fix this.

To me, A3S seems to require nearly the same perfection as T11, 12 and 13. Of course, I'm talking about before everyone was fully i130 and you could afford to lose someone to stupid death. All of those mechanics were unforgiving. And if you were "too careful" with preparing for mechanics and losing uptime on the boss, you'd fail to meet the DPS check.