BRD/MCH Fixed!

Or at least SQEX thinks they are.

Personally, I think it's hilarious that people are complaining about their DPS being absurdly low, and your method of remedying that, is to further lower the Potency of their attacks.

Also, we can't TOGGLE OFF Gauss Barrel now, because of the 15 second recast. Once it's on, it's on for at least 15 seconds.

SE be trollin', yo.

You need to do your math better.
Yes, they lowered the potency of some attacks, but exchanged that for added damage on EVERYTHING else.
You CAN'T deny that you WILL be doing more damage under the effects of WM or GB than you were before the patch.

Is it enough? Does it make BRD/MCH DPS in line with the other ones? I don't know, most likely not, and it likely never will because you have buffs and stuff.
But it's undeniably more.

Still not going to use Gauss Barrel.
Having my autoattacks and mobility are more valuable to me.

But hey, /golfclap to those who view this as a fix.

If you value mobility over DPS, go for it.

I've already noticed the difference while in Alexander.
The option to toggle, even with a cooldown, is much better.


And for real, if your idea of "fixing" was to remove the stances...they clearly weren't going to.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

If you value mobility over DPS, go for it.

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Can't DPS if you're dead.

The changing WM to a stance instead of a cast is good, not sure about the severe decrease on the potency of so many skills however. I have yet to try measuring the DPS increase/decrease but based on the cast timers for skills while under WM not changing alongside the potency decreases I have a feeling if there is any DPS increase it will be marginal at best and potentially not an increase at all due to the 20>30% WM increase benefit offset by those potency decreases. I will have to check in game though to be sure, I would like people who have already done some tests prior to and after the patch comparing parser data to say if they noticed any difference.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Can't DPS if you're dead.

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Yes because having a cast bar is the same as being dead.

They made WM/GB instant cast and increased damage to 30%. They lowered potency on a couple moves but gained not only instant cast of their turret buff but 10% more damage to -everything- else.

If you're going to whine, at least do it right.

The extra 10% damage on your DoTs from Wanderer's Minuet more than makes up for the potency hit Sidewinder took, not sure about Machinist though. That isn't even factoring in anything else but the DoTs potency, I'm far too lazy to think about the effect it will have on the rotation as a whole, but it's very apparent that Sidewinders potency nerf was to balance out the 10% buff on DoTs, while Empyreal Arrows nerf was simply to balance out the 10% damage buff it gets (240+20%=288, 220+30%=286, not a massive difference).

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Can't DPS if you're dead.

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stop moaning and learn to move like casters and healers do - last I checked they had cast bars and weren't dead.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Can't DPS if you're dead.

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You have a BLM at 60. You should know that you can DPS with cast times.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

decrease on the potency of so many skills

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2 skills got nerfed in potency.
The rest were not touched. Those two that did get hit, have a rather high recast time, so yeah... All in all it's a buff, as long as you are under WM/GB.

Gauss now ogcd instant cast and yes a small potency decrease to 2 ability's which were only used for the first 15 secs and never used again?

This is a massive boost for us, do you even mch?

It won't be fixed, but atleast both skills can be thrown into your rotation. For mch I've been doing GB every 20seconds, so I can use Gauss Round. It's a slight dps increase, not a lot, but they're on the right track.

Only problem I have with it is do the other players think it's enough to finally allow mch's to their end game runs?

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Originally Posted by NoahArks

It won't be fixed, but atleast both skills can be thrown into your rotation. For mch I've been doing GB every 20seconds, so I can use Gauss Round. It's a slight dps increase, not a lot, but they're on the right track.

Only problem I have with it is do the other players think it's enough to finally allow mch's to their end game runs?

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While BRD and MCH don't have the best DPS out there themselves, they can help their team do better. You won't find these numbers anywhere...
But their DPS IS enough for end game content. It was tested as such. Nobody is saying it's the same as SMN's, or NIN's... But it's enough.
The fact that people don't want these jobs in their endgame runs is just player mentality, and their attempt to hide their sub-par DPS on superior DPS classes. :X

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

You have a BLM at 60. You should know that you can DPS with cast times.

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its not cast times, its the damage that BLM does , if they made the BRD/MCH damage = to that of a BLM, no one would be complaining. pretty sure its not their.. so, I don't think its as much about the cast times vs damage.

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Originally Posted by TheMunimai

stop moaning and learn to move like casters and healers do - last I checked they had cast bars and weren't dead.

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If people wanted to play like a caster they would of made one instead because at least they have extremely high DPS output unlike BRD. Currently it feels like for many the BRD now plays like a caster (stuck to the ground while 'casting' your skills and skills cancelled if move at all)...only the new BRD caster class is doing a small fraction of the DPS output of that other BLM caster class so I can completely understand how these changes have ruined the BRD class for many. BLM for example is not dead despite using cast timers because it does a shit load of damage, bards with cast timers and being rooted to the ground unless take a massive 'additional' DPS loss on top of the many other DPS losses get from both skill use debuffs, low WD and low potency so do not have that same luxury or that same benefit that other casters have.

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Originally Posted by NoahArks

It won't be fixed, but atleast both skills can be thrown into your rotation. For mch I've been doing GB every 20seconds, so I can use Gauss Round. It's a slight dps increase, not a lot, but they're on the right track.

Only problem I have with it is do the other players think it's enough to finally allow mch's to their end game runs?

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Why would you only use GB every 20secs? You're killing your overall potency. No wonder ppl think MCH in general have crap dps.

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Originally Posted by TheMunimai

stop moaning and learn to move like casters and healers do - last I checked they had cast bars and weren't dead.

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Not the play style we picked a bard for.

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Originally Posted by Wigett

its not cast times, its the damage that BLM does , if they made the BRD/MCH damage = to that of a BLM, no one would be complaining. pretty sure its not their.. so, I don't think its as much about the cast times vs damage.

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I've never said that the DPS of BRD/MCH is the same as BLM. And it never will be, as long as you have support abilities that make the whole party do more DPS...
The thing is, if you want to do your best possible DPS as BRD/MCH, you have to play similar to BLM, since there already is a class that plays that way, it clearly shows that it's possible to do.

I understand people complaining about BRD/MCH not doing "enough" damage. I do NOT understand people complaining about the 3.01 changes, ESPECIALLY those calling it a nerf.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

I've never said that the DPS of BRD/MCH is the same as BLM. And it never will be, as long as you have support abilities that make the whole party do more DPS...
The thing is, if you want to do your best possible DPS as BRD/MCH, you have to play similar to BLM, since there already is a class that plays that way, it clearly shows that it's possible to do.

I understand people complaining about BRD/MCH not doing "enough" damage. I do NOT understand people complaining about the 3.01 changes, ESPECIALLY those calling it a nerf.

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Understood. I agree, im not ready to say "nerf" until I spend a week or so getting a feel for it. I am glad they did something, hopefully we (bars/mch) can find a way to make this change something that works for us.. :) keeping my fingers crossed.

Pretty easy to understand, we didn't want the play style change, no amount of buffs will change that it's jarring to switch between having all your abilities on cast times and then on instant, try it, it's confusing as hell and quite honestly bad game design.

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Originally Posted by Lyaha

Pretty easy to understand, we didn't want the play style change, no amount of buffs will change that it's jarring to switch between having all your abilities on cast times and then on instant, try it, it's confusing as hell and quite honestly bad game design.

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honestly being 100% mobile with 100% uptimes was bad game design. This is about fixing that. Sucks for the people who loved drawing figure-8's in the arena while doing fights, but it's not going anywhere. Deal with it or change jobs.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

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You do realize that we barely ever use those tp/mp songs. I can understand a -15% dmg loss while in support mode. But I don't understand why we are using plastic bullets and arrows 100% of the time. The loss to mobility does not add up to the damage increase we get from GB/WM. If you actually do the math we only gained a 5% to 10% damage increase if you are lucky with procs. We lost Auto attacks which was 20% of brds and mch total damage + slapped on a cast time for each skill unless its a proc. So all in all its a 5% increase to over all damage with GB and WM on. For GB/WM to be a real gain in dps then turn auto attacks back on.

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Originally Posted by Vyshan

Or at least SQEX thinks they are.

Personally, I think it's hilarious that people are complaining about their DPS being absurdly low, and your method of remedying that, is to further lower the Potency of their attacks.

Also, we can't TOGGLE OFF Gauss Barrel now, because of the 15 second recast. Once it's on, it's on for at least 15 seconds.

SE be trollin', yo.

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Yeah youre jumping the gun here IMO. The nerfed abilities were (to my understanding) under long-ish recast timers. WM get a 10% boost, meaning every single other ability we've used up until now got a 10% boost while only a few got hit with a 10%-30% nerf. Not to mention we got some of that "precious" mobility back being able to recast WM on the fly so long as you dont do it every time you need to take a baby step. You should be able to turn off GB/WM whenever you want, youre not stuck with it for 15 seconds... you just have to wait 15 seconds before turning it back on.

Still needs more IMO but not bad for like a 2 week fix considering they wanted to gauge the performances with the new raids before making any further changes.

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

knowing they wouldn't be as powerful as melee or casters but that's besides the point.

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Uh... no, if I sign up for a DPS class I expect to be as equal as possible to the rest of them. Not some closet support hybrid thats only really valuable when playing in a bad group that cant manage their TP/MP. If youd like to kindly point me to the "in-game" description of BRD I may have missed that says we will always be gimped DPS then im all ears.

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Originally Posted by TheMunimai

stop moaning and learn to move like casters and healers do - last I checked they had cast bars and weren't dead.

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They're used to playing a class/job that has them and they chose them knowing that. Bards chose bard for multiple reasons, one, insta dps, knowing they wouldn't be as powerful as melee or casters but that's besides the point.
I will, however, reserve my judgment until I have tried these "fixes" myself. I will be curious to see what ppl think that have tried it out in a serious attempt to get the dps that ppl got accustomed to prior to HW. Also as I've not yet entered Alexander I have not seen all the mechanics to see how mobile brd/mch needs to be. If the content was designed around a lesser need to dodge or dodging but with time in-between to pop wm/gb on then maybe not such a bad thing. I would love to still know what they discussed when they were thinking up the HW abilities. Just curious.
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Has anyone actually played the damn jobs yet and saw a difference?

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Originally Posted by Mhikail

Has anyone actually played the damn jobs yet and saw a difference?

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Doubt it. Just knee-jerk reactions to the seemingly overall 10%-30% nerf to our newer abilities while WM just got a 10% boost. Doesnt look good on paper but a 10% boost to every other shot we have plus an instant (hopefully off GCD) cast of WM can make a big difference. I doubt we're suddenly OP but I doubt they went through the trouble only to keep up in the shit position we were in before.

All I'm seeing is bad bards complaining that they aren't able to run everywhere like idiots with no reason at all.
Well, if WM can make you learn how to position yourself and anticipate stuff, it seems like a nice change.

Besides, if they get used to cast times, we'll hopefully see Foe Requiem and Swiftsongs more often. Who knows.


I might even start playing bard because of WM.

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Originally Posted by Kayote

Uh... no, if I sign up for a DPS class I expect to be as equal as possible to the rest of them. Not some closet support hybrid thats only really valuable when playing in a bad group that cant manage their TP/MP. If youd like to kindly point me to the "in-game" description of BRD I may have missed that says we will always be gimped DPS then im all ears.

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Guessing you skipped the job quest cutscenes? or didn't read the text when you talked to Jehantel?

"What does a bard do?
... the bard I would speak of is one born from a battle-hardened archer--one who sings his/her songs in the heat of combat to inspire his/her comrades to ever greater feats of martial prowess. ... the archer does the only thing he/she can: he/she sings. And in that raw melody resides the power to stir the souls of men. That, my friend, is the true definition of a bard, and one that few now remember."

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Originally Posted by AreeyaJaidee

Why would you only use GB every 20secs? You're killing your overall potency. No wonder ppl think MCH in general have crap dps.

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I mostly use it in combination with wildfire. Only using GB then I can get around the 2.5k on wildfire. I still have to see how my rotation will work at endgame, though. But what I've seen through using the aggro meter, I'm not that far behind a drg.

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Originally Posted by CastyMcgee

Guessing you skipped the job quest cutscenes? or didn't read the text when you talked to Jehantel?

"What does a bard do?
... the bard I would speak of is one born from a battle-hardened archer--one who sings his/her songs in the heat of combat to inspire his/her comrades to ever greater feats of martial prowess. ... the archer does the only thing he/she can: he/she sings. And in that raw melody resides the power to stir the souls of men. That, my friend, is the true definition of a bard, and one that few now remember."

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Where did I say we dont sing? Where does that say our DPS will always be gimped? Not only is that some glorified lore 30 levels into the game but I dont see where is says we're not really DPS, contradicting everything the player was told from the minute he picked his class/role and future job.

i like the new changes alot... feels alot better than what it was b4 theres really simple solution to help both parties

those that like dps over mobility = use WM/guass
those that prefer mobility over dps = dont use WM/gauss

pretty simple when you think about it :P

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Originally Posted by CastyMcgee

one who sings his/her songs in the heat of combat to inspire his/her comrades to ever greater feats of martial prowess. ... the archer does the only thing he/she can: he/she sings. And in that raw melody resides the power to stir the souls of men. That, my friend, is the true definition of a bard, and one that few now remember."

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Yes, quite ironic at the moment, isn't it?
Only thing I'll say is that our songs do not inspire to greater feats of martial prowess. They allow people to attack for longer, but not hit harder.
To me, that's the biggest failing of the Bard Job. If the bard raised everyone elses DPS, then no-one would care if we hit like a wet paper towel.

I want nothing more than to support. Not to heal, not to tank, but to help everyone else do better. Make everyone feel like they are kicking the crap out of the enemy, while I stand in the back, smiling faintly and singing.

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Originally Posted by codofwisdom

Yes, quite ironic at the moment, isn't it?
Only thing I'll say is that our songs do not inspire to greater feats of martial prowess. They allow people to attack for longer, but not hit harder.
To me, that's the biggest failing of the Bard Job. If the bard raised everyone elses DPS, then no-one would care if we hit like a wet paper towel.

I want nothing more than to support. Not to heal, not to tank, but to help everyone else do better. Make everyone feel like they are kicking the crap out of the enemy, while I stand in the back, smiling faintly and singing.

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It's funny, cause as a Ninja I can raise everyone's dps and we're top tier dps.

In the end though, BRDs have had gimped dps for most of 2.0 but they were always pretty much guaranteed a spot.
Part of the reason was the support, the other part was the mobility.
But they're moving away from the mobility part with WM. So they should have more damage than they used to.

It would be nice if there was more support or utility to them (both BRD and MCH) as well, once it doesn't cause BRD/MCH stacking.
They're probably never going to be true support as you wish. If there was, they'd have to add a specific support role slot to avoid a myriad of issues with comp.

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Originally Posted by codofwisdom

I want nothing more than to support. Not to heal, not to tank, but to help everyone else do better. Make everyone feel like they are kicking the crap out of the enemy, while I stand in the back, smiling faintly and singing.

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A valid point, as well. I'm totally fine with being a low dps class, if I could actually SUPPORT the group. But our group support is limited to being a potion with hitpoints. Where are our group buffs that do other things, like increase secondary stats? (Determination, crit chance, parry for instance).

But no, we're just potions with hitpoints. And because other jobs have skills that help with mp/tp regen, we're not even critically vital potions with hitpoints, unless people are screwing up on a regular basis.

OK... I am not a BRD, I have never played a BRD, but why is everyone ignoring Foe Requiem? It's a huge boost to caster DPS looking at the numbers.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

OK... I am not a BRD, I have never played a BRD, but why is everyone ignoring Foe Requiem? It's a huge boost to caster DPS looking at the numbers.

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You are correct. In a group of BLMs, a Bard has lots of friends. But if you consider the fact that 14 out of 22 of the available classes use physical damage, this is less useful.
My other wish is for a physical Foe's Requiem.

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Originally Posted by Lyaha

Not the play style we picked a bard for.

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Style and playability has nothing to do with my point at all.

The person I originally quoted made the point that lack of mobility made bards dead .... My point was - just because you have to "Cast" doesn't make you dead at all.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

OK... I am not a BRD, I have never played a BRD, but why is everyone ignoring Foe Requiem? It's a huge boost to caster DPS looking at the numbers.

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Foe Requiem requires that you have a bunch of caster dps. But what if your dps is ninjas and dragoons? It's benefit is then minimal. Also, it drains the bards MP ridiculously fast, so it can only be maintained for a few seconds per minute.

Also, if they have to be running tp/mp song, they can't run Requiem.