Shadow Wall vs Vengeance!

Vengeance:
Every time someone attacks you they take 50 potency in damage.
Reduces damage taken by 30%.
Duration: 15s
Reuse: 120s

Shadow Wall
Reduces damage taken by 30%.
Duration: 10s
Reuse: 180s


Something needs changed. Vengeance is 100x better then Shadow Wall. I would change it to something like this.

Shadow Wall
Every time something attacks you, you heal for 50 potency.
Reduces damage taken by 30%
Duration: 15s
Reuse: 120s

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Shadow Wall
Every time something attacks you, you heal for 50 potency.
Reduces damage taken by 30%
Duration: 15s
Reuse: 120s

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It's funny, because with all the things they take from FFXI..I figured they would have at least took a look at Dark Knight's Dread Spikes and worked it in accordingly. Heck, I expected THAT to be the 5 minute CD.

Umm pardon me but why are we comparing skills in a vaccume here?

It's better to look at the big picture rather skill by skill:

DRK Defensive skills (not counting HP skills):
-Foresight (20% reduction, 20s)
-Shadowskin (20% reduction, 20s)
-Grit (20% reduction, toggle)
-Dark Dance (30% parry, 20s)
-Dark Mind (15-30% magic damage reduction, 10s)
-Shadow Wall (30% reduction, 10s)
-Living Dead (HP won't drop below 1, 10s) This one is arguably better than Holy Ground since there are attacks Holy Ground won't block.

WAR Defensive skills (not counting HP skills):
-Foresight (20% reduction, 20s)
-Vengeance (30% reduction + spikes, 15s)
-Defiance (2-10% parry based on stacks)
-Inner Beast (20% reduction every Infuriated, if used for it)
-Raw Intuition (100% parry from front, 100% crit received damage from side and back, 20s)

Overall they are very close. Don't just compare skill to skill.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

It's better to look at the big picture rather skill by skill:

DRK Defensive skills (not counting HP skills):
-Foresight (20% reduction, 20s)
-Shadowskin (20% reduction, 20s)
-Grit (20% reduction, toggle)
-Dark Dance (30% parry, 20s)
-Dark Mind (15-30% magic damage reduction, 10s)
-Shadow Wall (30% reduction, 10s)
-Living Dead (HP won't drop below 1, 10s) This one is arguably better than Holy Ground since there are attacks Holy Ground won't block.

WAR Defensive skills (not counting HP skills):
-Foresight (20% reduction, 20s)
-Vengeance (30% reduction + spikes, 15s)
-Defiance (2-10% parry based on stacks)
-Inner Beast (20% reduction every Infuriated, if used for it)
-Raw Intuition (100% parry from front, 100% crit received damage from side and back, 20s)

Overall they are very close. Don't just compare skill to skill.

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If Hallowed Ground/Holmgang won't block them, Living Dead isn't an exception. I can tell you Ramuh didn't give two shakes that I used Living Dead without the mitigation buff for Shock Strike. Nit picking aside, it's funny how we can make 40% reduction(Grit and Shadowskin) and yet still feel as soft as a Warrior. And it is important to look at skill by skill. If you look at the big picture all the time, you might miss some of the fine details in that big picture.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

If Hallowed Ground/Holmgang won't block them, Living Dead isn't an exception. I can tell you Ramuh didn't give two shakes that I used Living Dead without the mitigation buff for Shock Strike.

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That is a very special case attack. The mechanic is designed that if you don't get 3 surge protection, you lose.

What I'm talking about is that there are some high damage attacks that are not blocked by Holy Ground. But Living Dead isn't mitigation, so there's nothing about blocking. You are kept at 1 HP, regardless of the damage you take.

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Nit picking aside, it's funny how we can make 40% reduction(Grit and Shadowskin) and yet still feel as soft as a Warrior. And it is important to look at skill by skill. If you look at the big picture all the time, you might miss some of the fine details in that big picture.

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I did look at skill by skill. Notice how I listed all of them. What I was saying is you can't COMPARE skill by skill and expect them to be the same because there are mitigating factors based on the OTHER skills available in a job's set.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

It's better to look at the big picture rather skill by skill:

DRK Defensive skills (not counting HP skills):
-Foresight (20% reduction, 20s)

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No, 20% more defense. Much, much less than 20% reduction. Besides other issues. You don't have holmgang on there. And if you count Grit you need to count Defiance's hp and healing buffs. Those amount to very nearly the exact same thing as Grit (or Sword Oath for that matter)

IMO Shadow Wall needs to take vengeance's timer or gain a pretty big secondary effect to justify the timer.

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

IMO Shadow Wall needs to take vengeance's timer or gain a pretty big secondary effect to justify the timer.

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This.

People who are looking at the 'big picture' as they call it, are blind to how Dark Knights really work. We're Paladins without a shield, and with a hell of a lot less mitigation. Those individual pieces MAKE UP the big picture people seem to be so focused on.

When you go into an encounter, you don't pop everything you have right off the bat, you use individual skills when you need to. And in that case, when something isn't adding up right, it's incredibly apparent.

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

No, 20% more defense. Much, much less than 20% reduction. Besides other issues. You don't have holmgang on there. And if you count Grit you need to count Defiance's hp and healing buffs. Those amount to very nearly the exact same thing as Grit (or Sword Oath for that matter)

IMO Shadow Wall needs to take vengeance's timer or gain a pretty big secondary effect to justify the timer.

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Yup, I did mistype Foresight, but since both jobs have access to it, the typo isn't really relevant. And yes, I did forget Holmgang, apologies. Though since Living Dead and Holmgang are similar, again it's not really a big deal.

I can count Grit because it gives damage reduction. The only mitigation-related part of Defiance is Parry. If you want me to include all the HP stuff as well, then I'd have to do so far DRK too, and again it comes out as very comparable.

And I do agree Shadow Wall needs some tweaking, but only because it's a direct copy of Sentinel minus the 10% bonus Paladin has from their trait (making Sentinel 40%). Personally I like the idea of adding a small "Darkness" absorption shield or something.

But that wasn't the point. The point is you can't just take two skills out of context, put them in a vacuum and make judgments. You have to consider the whole package.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

That is a very special case attack. The mechanic is designed that if you don't get 3 surge protection, you lose.

What I'm talking about is that there are some high damage attacks that are not blocked by Holy Ground. But Living Dead isn't mitigation, so there's nothing about blocking. You are kept at 1 HP, regardless of the damage you take..

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Hrm? I would need to know such attacks. While Tanking is not my main, in the times that I have tanked, there hasn't been anything HG(off the top of my head at least) that I was unable to nullify if pressed early to make up for server delay.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

I did look at skill by skill. Notice how I listed all of them. What I was saying is you can't COMPARE skill by skill and expect them to be the same because there are mitigating factors based on the OTHER skills available in a job's set.

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Here's the thing, it's obvious they picked Vengeance because it's essentially your version of Shadow Wall(Sentinel). However, tell us why Shadow Wall's CD is Longer, Duration is Shorter and does less than Warrior's? As someone else mentioned, we're not stacking Defensive CDs. You can argue Defiance vs. Grit if you want, but do remember you too have access to that 20% Reduction at any time(Then you also have a 10% Parry(20% Damage reduction, ayyyy) and Healing Restored Buff upon you to boot). And who the heck is going to toggle Grit? Once Grit, always Grit. The MP Cost just to enter it is silly.

-Foresight: Defense does very little to actual damage mitigation. Research this before posting about it.

-Shadowskin: This is inferior in every way to Ib for raiding. You can have IB up for every tank buster with a little skill, and infuriate for any failures.

-Dark Dance: Can't dodge busters, a 30% chance to reduce a parryable attack by 20% is pretty crap.

-Dark Mind
This is a saving grace and actually good.

-Shadow Wall
Inferior to vengeance(duration, cd), inferior to sentinel(strength)

-Living Dead
I laughed at this. The same mechs that insta kill insta kill both (Tested in ads/allagan rot). 10 seconds of letting your healers heal the party vs stressing about you (since benediction doesnt count as having healed your full hp)

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Originally Posted by Ditto

This.

People who are looking at the 'big picture' as they call it, are blind to how Dark Knights really work. We're Paladins without a shield, and with a hell of a lot less mitigation. Those individual pieces MAKE UP the big picture people seem to be so focused on.

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If you want to argue DRK is unacceptably inferior to War and Pally that is fine go ahead.

But dont do it by taking one skill from each and saying that Skill A is better than Skill B. Because while that may be so, chances are thier is some skill in class B that is likely just as better than a skill in class A.

Basically saying

Skill A > Skill B ==> Class A > Class B

Is a poor way to make an argument.

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Originally Posted by Timat

If you want to argue DRK is unacceptably inferior to War and Pally that is fine go ahead.

But dont do it by taking one skill from each and saying that Skill A is better than Skill B. Because while that may be so, chances are thier is some skill in class B that is likely just as better than a skill in class A.

Basically saying

Skill A > Skill B ==> Class A > Class B

Is a poor way to make an argument.

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Of course it is, but when there's more negatives to Drk than there is positives, there is obviously a problem. Skills aren't the only thing that make a class tanky, yet a class as a whole is made up of their skills, and other mechanics that are class specific. Each one ff those things is an individual piece of what makes up a class, and determines how that class will perform.

Without looking at pieces in specific, you overlook everything.

Really makes me laugh when people just go listing out a bunch of skills Drk has and then say nothing is wrong. Talk about ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Timat

If you want to argue DRK is unacceptably inferior to War and Pally that is fine go ahead.

But dont do it by taking one skill from each and saying that Skill A is better than Skill B. Because while that may be so, chances are thier is some skill in class B that is likely just as better than a skill in class A.

Basically saying

Skill A > Skill B ==> Class A > Class B

Is a poor way to make an argument.

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Err...I feel like this statement contradicts itself. You tell the person to argue that X Class if Inferior to X Class. But then if they try to bring in points to justify that, it's a poor way to argue it?

Really Talathion this guy again?!? FYI people he use to post dumb stuff like this on the EQ2 berserker forums, trying to get some sort of change. In the end he just became a joke on that forum...

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

Err...I feel like this statement contradicts itself. You tell the person to argue that X Class if Inferior to X Class. But then if they try to bring in points to justify that, it's a poor way to argue it?

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Cherry picking one skill as you entire argument is not getting your point across well.

If you want to argue that DRK is below the others then ARGUE THAT POINT

Do not harp on Vengence and Shadow Wall alone though...sure you may use that as a point but making that you central argument...that shadow wall needs to be changed cause vengence is not good.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

I can count Grit because it gives damage reduction. The only mitigation-related part of Defiance is Parry. If you want me to include all the HP stuff as well, then I'd have to do so far DRK too, and again it comes out as very comparable.

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There is a vast difference in healing and max health increased. Max health increased can be compared to mitigation due to the way that raids work in FFXIV. Yes I compare to raids because that is where the difference in skills between the classes will really show.
The way raids work in FFXIV currently is that bosses have tank buster hits that does massive damage which can 1hit KO or close to if you are not weary. Damage mitigation prevents this from happening, just as having more health over all can prevent you from dying to these devastating attacks. In between these big hits the tanks are not really that stressed and healers spend most of their times healing other people. So yes, skills that add to max HP has to be taken into consideration like Defiance and Thrill of Battle. Skills that only heals however, not as much.

You cant apply meaningful damage debuffs as an OT, and you are restricted as an MT to a proc that has a 10 second gap in its uptime. Your other buster mechanisms are rampart(shadowskin) and shadow wall(30% with sentinel cd). Everything else you get, is cross class. Foresight doesnt do diddly on busters, conva and awarness are givens.

You have enough cooldowns where you can go through 2 busters with 1 meaningful cooldown each, and then based off the fight MIGHT have shadow skin up, MIGHT not. You certainly wont have wall up again anytime soon. Warriors will have an IB up for ever buster, vengeance is cake. Paladins actually arnt all that dismillar but have incredibly good 'other' cds--Sheltron is useable on every buster (30sec cd), Bulwark is leagues better than shadow dance (since with base shield rates, you are getting into 'assured to proc' territory).

Not sure what else to say? Its a fine tank for dungeons?

Ok, let's look at this more comparitively:

Inner Beast > Shadowskin = Rampart
Shield Oath > Grit > Defiance (though the damage penalty for DRK is less, meaning faster fights)
Bulwark > Raw Intuition > Dark Dance
Dark Mind = Unique, no real comparison
Vengeance > Sentinel > Shadow Wall
Hallowed Ground > Holmgang ~= Living Dead

On pure mitigation, DRK is generally below WAR and PLD, but not cripplingly so. Souleater, Abyssal Drain, and Sole Survivor help make up the shortcomings somewhat. But you also have to remember that as Main Tank, DRK puts out a lot more damage than a PLD, meaning shorter fights. Not sure about WAR.

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Originally Posted by Timat

Cherry picking one skill as you entire argument is not getting your point across well.

If you want to argue that DRK is below the others then ARGUE THAT POINT

Do not harp on Vengence and Shadow Wall alone though...sure you may use that as a point but making that you central argument...that shadow wall needs to be changed cause vengence is not good.

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That's fine and dandy. I can see that.

The original post was not citing anything about DRK being bad compared to other classes. Just simply that Vengeance was much better. We can all see why. It was then brought into "Looking into the Bigger Picture" where it slowly brought the others skills into light(which still are meh in comparison overall save Dark Mind). And here we are.

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Originally Posted by Marveth

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Everything said

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^ This is 100% accurate. I tanks for 2 years as a warrior (up to t13 pre echo). Basically if tank health at a particular phase is X (any number) then a tank buster will generally hit for X+30% so without some extra mitigation, you tend to die. A warrior increasing their health up 25% is effectively a layer of mitigation and works as effectively as grit/shield oath. I.E

if i have 10K health, and a 13K attack is coming in, then a paladin will take 10.4K damage, and a warrior will still take the 13K but would have had 12.5K health (basically, both are death by a similar margin, and if both pop 1 cd, they are suddenly NOT dead but a similar margin).

Edit: Simpler math is, pld/drk take 20% less damage against a pool of numbers, where warriors have 25% more in that pool of numbers. A value applied to the pool is more or less the same % of the pool.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

But you also have to remember that as Main Tank, DRK puts out a lot more damage than a PLD, meaning shorter fights. Not sure about WAR.

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That's nice and all when it comes down to trash mobs and stuff. But when it comes to MT on a Raid? It's not that simple. The damage is still there. The good mitigation skills are not.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

Hallowed Ground > Holmgang ~= Living Dead

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Hollowed Ground > Holmgang > Living Dead

Holmgang doesn't instant kill you like Living Dead does if your HP isn't topped off completely (Benediction doesn't work) throughout the duration of walking dead.. I like the idea of the skill, I really do, but the way they executed it, it's a crappier Holmgang, only executed the same way hollowed ground is. (Don't need a target, doesn't bind you, etc.)

It could definitely use a change, but they haven't fixed Holmgang yet, so I have no hope for Living Dead getting many adjustments either. I only hope they don't butcher the skill and make it some generic oh shit button like Holmgang is, and instead try to keep it more unique to a Drk's theme, and closer to their style of combat.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

On pure mitigation, DRK is generally below WAR and PLD, but not cripplingly so. Souleater, Abyssal Drain, and Sole Survivor help make up the shortcomings somewhat. But you also have to remember that as Main Tank, DRK puts out a lot more damage than a PLD, meaning shorter fights. Not sure about WAR.

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It's to the point where I'd say Drk IS cripplingly below PLD. Less so below War, but War is still leagues ahead, especially right now seeing as it's Warriors time to shine, and they seem to be the most demanded tank currently, even in MT situations.

Personally I feel as if Drk doesn't do that much more damage than a Paladin could do to where it'd actually be considered an advantage. Drk's have nothing on a War's DPS either, especially if the War knows how to stance dance. In a Drk's case, we cannot enable Grit without using a GCD, and a retarded amount of MP. The MP requirement of which I always thought was just silly.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Hollowed Ground > Holmgang > Living Dead

Holmgang doesn't instant kill you like Living Dead does if your HP isn't topped off completely (Benediction doesn't work) throughout the duration of walking dead.. I like the idea of the skill, I really do, but the way they executed it, it's a crappier Holmgang, only executed the same way hollowed ground is. (Don't need a target, doesn't bind you, etc.)

It could definitely use a change, but they haven't fixed Holmgang yet, so I have no hope for Living Dead getting many adjustments either.

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Benediction not working is a bug. The problem is that Bene just "resets HP" it doesn't "cure" as far as the programming is concerned. So it's not removing the debuff (although someone in another thread claimed that a bene they received actually did remove the debuff). I'm sure that will be fixed.

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It's to the point where I'd say Drk IS cripplingly below PLD. Less so below War, but War is still leagues ahead, especially right now seeing as it's Warriors time to shine, and they seem to be the most demanded tank currently, even in MT situations.

Personally I feel as if Drk doesn't do that much more damage than a Paladin could do to where it'd actually be considered an advantage. Drk's have nothing on a War's DPS either, especially if the War knows how to stance dance. In a Drk's case, we cannot enable Grit without using a GCD, and a retarded amount of MP. The MP requirement of which I always thought was just silly.

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Again, I don't think it's cripplingly lower than either, nor is WAR "leagues ahead". PLD is definitely the "safer" option for MTing, but end-game content won't be impossible for DRKs. OT they have the advantage over PLD and aren't far behind WAR. For min/maxing groups, it does leave DRK in a bad position at the moment since those groups likely won't want a DRK.

However, I do want to say that a PLD in Shield Oath and a DRK in Grit, the DRK does far more damage than the PLD. Far more.

PLD is a better OT. It provides
10% damage debuff that is unique, vs one that isnt/applied by monks
Can heal targets for 1200 potency heals TWICE before break(3.5K non crit at i160)
Provides melee a 10% health shield(tank health)
Can cover the MT if a damage share is needed (MT in trouble).

Secondly, the PLD that has been tanking with Xeno posted on reddit he is keeping up with wars ST damage (not multi, obv).

Darkside 15% damage buff is compared to 10% (over time) for FoF. DRK have 1900 potency of OGCD attacks per minute (ignore dark passenger as its trash for the mana, as well as Salt the Earth because it takes 2 clicks and a delay--its not really an OGCD attack, eats a gcd). A paladin has 1100 ogcd per minute. Taking a 2.0 delay weapon with -no- attack speed/skill speed, you are adding another 1500 potency of damage over a minute from sword oath. Does Paladin out dps DRK? I doubt it--but you saying 'far more' is not based off math and parses, just placibo and gut feeling.

A paladin in shield oath is doing .88 damage (-20% + 10% from FoF over time) vs a dark knight is doing .92 (-20% + 15% from dark side). When you equate in oGCDS, a Dark certainly is going to do more damage while MT'ing but per above(especially at the loss of sword oath), but in general -- in progression raiding, no one is going to care about the tanks damage--your job is to survive busters and make the healers job as easy as possible so they can heal the dps that do the *REAL DAMAGE*. That said, I'm glad with the direction of paladins, i think everyone is going to prefer them as an MT and are kind of a mandatory bring along at this point. Take least damage, can heal themselves or others in a pinch, bring the most utility. Dark might compete for farm tanking.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

PLD is definitely the "safer" option for MTing, but end-game content won't be impossible for DRKs.

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Just as nothing was impossible for a Warrior in 2.0. All tanks can fill any role, but it doesn't mean it's going to be a clean fight, or that the class is going to do it's job as MT effectively enough to relieve stress and worry on the rest of the group. I mean there is a reason people preferred Paladin as a MT over a Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

OT they have the advantage over PLD and aren't far behind WAR. For min/maxing groups, it does leave DRK in a bad position at the moment since those groups likely won't want a DRK.

However, I do want to say that a PLD in Shield Oath and a DRK in Grit, the DRK does far more damage than the PLD. Far more.

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Well this confirms it then, you have no idea what you're talking about (Even more so based on your posts in other relevant threads). Nor do you seem to know how the general raid community feels in terms of actually wanting to succeed. Min/Max group or not, if the group wants a Paladin or War as a MT because they make the fight more smooth, they will look for those classes in specific. Better tanking kit = less stress on healers = smoother run = better chance of success.

That is literally common sense, and the Party Finder (And static recruiting PF listings) have always been filled with them.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

A paladin in shield oath is doing .88 damage (-20% + 10% from FoF over time) vs a dark knight is doing .92 (-20% + 15% from dark side). When you equate in oGCDS, a Dark certainly is going to do more damage while MT'ing but per above(especially at the loss of sword oath), but in general -- in progression raiding, no one is going to care about the tanks damage--your job is to survive busters and make the healers job as easy as possible so they can heal the dps that do the *REAL DAMAGE*. That said, I'm glad with the direction of paladins, i think everyone is going to prefer them as an MT and are kind of a mandatory bring along at this point. Take least damage, can heal themselves or others in a pinch, bring the most utility. Dark might compete for farm tanking.

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Shield oath is -30% damage, not 20%. Darkside can be kept up indefinitely, FoF cannot.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Just as nothing was impossible for a Warrior in 2.0. All tanks can fill any role, but it doesn't mean it's going to be a clean fight, or that the class is going to do it's job as MT effectively enough to relieve stress and worry on the rest of the group. I mean there is a reason people preferred Paladin as a MT over a Warrior.

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There's no stress for any content but Coil (and whatever the new raid is going to be).

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Nor do you seem to know how the general raid community feels in terms of actually wanting to succeed. Min/Max group or not, if the group wants a Paladin or War as a MT because they make the fight more smooth, they will look for those classes in specific. Better tanking kit = less stress on healers = smoother run = better chance of success.

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I'm well aware, but thanks for the ad homs instead of actually validly arguing a point.

Yes, a lot of the "raid community" are min/maxers. That's very common. And so yes, it is going to make it harder for DRKs to participate in raids until SE does something to make DRKs perception better, as I said. That doesn't make DRKs "cripplingly worse" than PLD or WAR. They are right in the middle of a PLD or WAR, which is seen as a negative by min/maxers.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Shield oath is -30% damage, not 20%. Darkside can be kept up indefinitely, FoF cannot.

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Shield oath is 20% damage reduction and damage dealt reduction. Grit and Shield Oath are identical.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Shield oath is -30% damage, not 20%. Darkside can be kept up indefinitely, FoF cannot.

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You continue to lose credibility.

If you looked at the math, you would understand FoF uptime isnt listed, its its effect over time, which frankly if you know how burst works is better for FoF (during its 30% window, key powers can be strung together in succession, and before it falls a new Goring Blade DoT can be put up to clipt he damage buff). The new paladin powers have extraordinary potency without a mana mechanic to gimmick off. Royal Authority does 13% more damage than Power Swing and considerably more than a non dark arted soul eater(which Drks fighting single bosses do not have 'infinite mana' like they do in dungeons with multiple strikes triggering blood price). Goring Blade is kept up at all times (similar to scourge, just hitting harder over its duration which, being shorter means the 220 base potency is being reapplied more frequently).

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

Shield oath is 20% damage reduction and damage dealt reduction. Grit and Shield Oath are identical.

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Yeah, I just logged in to confirm. When I'm posting I'm usually at work, so I can't be logged into the game to check stats, so I use other websites. Apparently the one I was using was out of date.

[removed for being dumb]

Isn't Sentinel 40% damage reduction...?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Isn't Sentinel 40% damage reduction...?

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Wow I guess it is. That's what I get for not paying attention to traits

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Originally Posted by Faytte

That said, I'm glad with the direction of paladins, i think everyone is going to prefer them as an MT and are kind of a mandatory bring along at this point. Take least damage, can heal themselves or others in a pinch, bring the most utility. Dark might compete for farm tanking.

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TBH sounds like you WANT PLD to be the only viable (or best) MT and for the others to not have a chance.