If you disable cleric stance during combat, when would you use it?

Genuinely curious. What are the out-of-combat applications of cleric stance?

Uh. None, actually. I mean seriously none. That's because it's... not a combat skill. If it were toggleable out of combat I imagine the intention is that you prep it in advance while soloing.

If this is in regards to the other topic today, this could have been merged with it, probably.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Uh. None, actually. I mean seriously none. That's because it's... not a combat skill. If it were toggleable out of combat I imagine the intention is that you prep it in advance while soloing.

If this is in regards to the other topic today, this could have been merged with it, probably.

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That would kinda suck for healing oneself in solo content with harder hitting mobs, though.

And, yeah, I just didn't want to get tangled up in should a healer DPS flamewars.

you know, you're probably the wisest one of us all to back away slowly from that! Good on you.

And yeah it would probably suck for gimping heals. I dunno, I imagine the idea just isn't thought out super well. I can see the intent behind it, but generally lowering a class's options is not a good idea if you can help it. Damage, maybe, but you don't want to deny people options.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

you know, you're probably the wisest one of us all to back away slowly from that! Good on you.

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Well... It might just follow us here, but at least for now, we're having a reasonable discussion.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

I can see the intent behind it, but generally lowering a class's options is not a good idea if you can help it.

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Agreed wholeheartedly. And I will admit I'm kind of excited about the options we're getting from the new skills.

As Faust mentioned, if assuming that particular poster was thinking "it can't be toggled during combat" pretty much prep all your HoT's / Mitigations before you engage a single mob, then kill that single mob and restore your HP?

Could you imagine the shenanigans that can happen if a tank pulls a mob train while you're still in Cleric's and you can't toggle out? Commence the lulz!

If Clerics Stance was suddenly "ineffectual" in combat, you would hear all the CNJs/WHMs screaming for a new ability because that effectively makes Clerics Stance a useless ability in the spell book.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

If Clerics Stance was suddenly "ineffectual" in combat, you would hear all the CNJs/WHMs screaming for a new ability because that effectively makes Clerics Stance a useless ability in the spell book.

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They're very loud. I still don't have something to replace Haymaker or One-Ilm Punch in my MNK skill list.

I do like the look of the new healer role skills in Heavensward, though. Aero3 seems to accomplish the AoE DPS without being near as intrusive as Holy is in parties, which I enjoy the sound of.

You forgot the SCH and upcoming AST would complain as well if Cleric Stance was made ineffective. Actually I would suspect more SCH than CNJ/WHM would complain about it but it's just a suspicion.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

They're very loud. I still don't have something to replace Haymaker or One-Ilm Punch in my MNK skill list.

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While I agree, the key defining point is Haymaker / One-Ilm Punch / other moves of similar nature are at least still "remotely useful on the borderline of useless". By making "Clerics Stance" do nothing, it is the epitome of "useless" and should be replaced with something. Yes, I know, it's a small semantics things, but I feel its an important semantic because at least everything else in this game is remotely useful at some form of the game (yes, even Tri-Disaster in PvP).

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Originally Posted by desufin

You forgot the SCH and upcoming AST would complain as well if Cleric Stance was made ineffective. Actually I would suspect more SCH than CNJ/WHM would complain about it but it's just a suspicion.

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The reason I said specifically CNJ/WHM is because at least SCH and AST will have the option to CC something else. CNJ/WHMs won't have that option if they do make Cleric's Stance useless, sadly.

With that being said, I'm not saying any other cross class at this time will actually be useful either >>; I guess I can take Blizzard II on SCH if I don't have access to Cleric Stance for the bind effect. . .?

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

As Faust mentioned, if assuming that particular poster was thinking "it can't be toggled during combat" pretty much prep all your HoT's / Mitigations before you engage a single mob, then kill that single mob and restore your HP?

Could you imagine the shenanigans that can happen if a tank pulls a mob train while you're still in Cleric's and you can't toggle out? Commence the lulz!

If Clerics Stance was suddenly "ineffectual" in combat, you would hear all the CNJs/WHMs screaming for a new ability because that effectively makes Clerics Stance a useless ability in the spell book.

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I am actually really curious about precisely how Assize will work, and if/how Cleric will affect it. Well, not too much longer till the expac...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I am actually really curious about precisely how Assize will work, and if/how Cleric will affect it. Well, not too much longer till the expac...

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We'll find out and I don't want to say "this is how's it going to be done" but there are a couple of ways to do it

1) The attack portion is based on your INT/MATK and the heal portion based on your MND - therefore it's either a weak heal + potent damage or potent heal + weak damage
2) Heals everyone in some capacity in the AoE (split evenly / everyone gets healed for damage done / etc) based on the amount of damage done for it <<< this feels too OP in my mind
3) Does damaged to the target(s) based on the amount of people hit healedby the AoE <<<< also feels OP in my mind, but not as OP as #2 depending on your layout and the range of the heal
4) Always does a set amount of damage and heal based on character ilvl / weapon MD

Like you said, I guess we'll find out :)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Snip!

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Actually, the inverse of 2 might be neat- make it do damage based on the amount of HP healed by it. So it'd be ideally used after a large raid-hitting mechanic where you'd be doing AoE heals anyway, but you get a nice big hit on a cooldown with it.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

Actually, the inverse of 2 might be neat- make it do damage based on the amount of HP healed by it. So it'd be ideally used after a large raid-hitting mechanic where you'd be doing AoE heals anyway, but you get a nice big hit on a cooldown with it.

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Yeah, actually that was what I was trying to say for #3, but apparently I fudged that up. lol.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

3) Does damage to the target(s) based on the amount of people hit healed by the AoE <<<< also feels OP in my mind, but not as OP as #2 depending on your layout and the range of the heal

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Oops

There are ways to balance #2 and #3... a high MP cost, for example, a long-ish cooldown, some sort of stack management, etc. DPS healing really appeals to me though (I played an assault rifle healer in TSW).

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I am actually really curious about precisely how Assize will work, and if/how Cleric will affect it. Well, not too much longer till the expac...

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Do you think they named it Assize to mock us asking for bigger butts? XD

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Do you think they named it Assize to mock us asking for bigger butts? XD

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That, or we're putting in a court minigame. Phoenix Wright, Ace White Mage.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Could you imagine the shenanigans that can happen if a tank pulls a mob train while you're still in Cleric's and you can't toggle out? Commence the lulz!

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Ahahahaa-! *Curls into a ball, sucks thumb and rocks in a corner*
I cry every time tanks/DPS get the heal debuff from bosses - let alone having to heal mass pulls like that.

I think the only time it could be used is a high-geared healer in a super low level dungeon, where you *could* run a good chunk of the dungeon and leave Cleric on the entire way... but would make it difficult if you have low level tanks with low gear ending up over their heads.

Using that formula + soloing content - the healer would have to see and decide to engage to turn Cleric on.... majority of the time, aggro is snagged unintentionally, or something spawned nearby (thank you very much, fates on top of quest areas).... in which case they hadn't expected it and are either without larger heals if left on or, if left off, without good DPS to defend oneself (A good defense is a good offense.... until you're hit within a millimeter of your HP).

I think everyone is looking at this all wrong. We'd be guaranteed a dps slot now! People would just have to cross-class Physick or Cure then we'd all be on the same playing field. Although I'm pretty sure my Cure 1 still heals for more, while in cleric stance, then another person cross-classing it. They could also cross class the marauder skill that lets you leach HP on hit. Then no one would need heals!

In all seriousness though, it would be hilarious if we couldn't take cleric stance off during combat. I'd be kicked out of so many groups. "Sorry, forgot cleric stance was... guys? guys? Where'd everyone go? Why is there a loading scree... oh damn it."

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Genuinely curious. What are the out-of-combat applications of cleric stance?

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Solo play.

I would hate to be sitting there just waiting for an ally to get hit, so I can heal them. I've played Tera and seen how the healers are in the dungeons. They look bored as hell. If I was stuck in one stance the whole fight I would probably just turn on follow place Eos on sic and go to sleep.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I am actually really curious about precisely how Assize will work, and if/how Cleric will affect it. Well, not too much longer till the expac...

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I've been wondering about that one myself
Will the damage just equal the healing or will it be like a cleric stance flip-flop to choose what you want the main component of it to be

Either way has ups and downs too for how it can be used

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

I would hate to be sitting there just waiting for an ally to get hit, so I can heal them. I've played Tera and seen how the healers are in the dungeons. They look bored as hell. If I was stuck in one stance the whole fight I would probably just turn on follow place Eos on sic and go to sleep.

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Could still DPS. Dont *need* CS for that.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

I would hate to be sitting there just waiting for an ally to get hit, so I can heal them. I've played Tera and seen how the healers are in the dungeons. They look bored as hell. If I was stuck in one stance the whole fight I would probably just turn on follow place Eos on sic and go to sleep.

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I may or may not have been guilty of this with SCH in low level dungeons. >.> <.<

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Could still DPS. Dont *need* CS for that.

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You kind of do. DPSing outside of CS is incredibly ineffective. As in "only a little better than solely auto-attacking with your book or cane" ineffective.

At lower levels where all caster gear comes with both INT and MND it isn't as noticeable of a difference, but the gap between bothering to turn on CS and not becomes enormous when you end up with MND-only equipment.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Could still DPS. Dont *need* CS for that.

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Cleric Stance: My DoTs + Shadowflare tick for about 600 damage per tick and my Energy Drains hit for about 600 damage non-crit. Ruin hits for about 300 damage.
Without Cleric Stance: My DoTs + Shadowflare tick for about 200 damage per tick and my Energy Drain hits for about 200 damage non-crit. Ruin hits for about 100 damage.
Shouldn't be too hard to see how hard this gimps my damage output? Hint: I lose 66% of my potential output.
If SE really was stupid enough to give in and remove Cleric Stance, what do you think would happen? Everyone would stop DPSing and heal only? People either stop playing healers, because they lost a part of it that was fun to them, or people would just DPS without Cleric Stance, which leaves you with the same problem (not recieving heals), but actually removes a good portion of DPS from your group.

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Originally Posted by amihavingfunyet

If SE really was stupid enough to give in and remove Cleric Stance, what do you think would happen? Everyone would stop DPSing and heal only? People either stop playing healers, because they lost a part of it that was fun to them, or people would just DPS without Cleric Stance, which leaves you with the same problem (not recieving heals), but actually removes a good portion of DPS from your group.

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The problem is the mechanic itself means that when you are in CS, you are not being a (effective) healer.

Here's a bunch of scenarios and how they would likely play out:

1.) CS disappears altogether from the game.

- Players would still DPS, whine about how hard solo-content is (indeed I did the entire Conjurer/WHM healer storyline without it, because it made healing worse and had no perceived increase in DPS at the time, hence all leveling was done from dungeons) and likely groan about picking healer for dungeons. Every solo piece of content (eg Alexendrite) becomes impossible even with BiS gear, instead forcing players to do "harder" solo stuff on a DPS job instead.

2) CS disappears only from Dungeon instances (Already gone from PvP)

- No change from how things are now, except players would just complain that DPS is pointless on a healer, why have any DPS skills at all, and thus this argument changes from "why did you get rid of CS" to "Why did you Nerf healers?" See PvP. Some people who were actually skillful at DPS stance dances would complain, but generally it would not change things in any significant way.

3) CS disappears only from the Dungeon instances AND certain skills are disabled to enforce roles selected during DF:
- Healers unable to enter the dungeon with CS, and CS can not be toggled during the dungeon. DPS skills with no effects are disabled (which is just Stone II)
- Tanks are unable to use their DPS stance, and can not use self-healing or cross-classed healing.
- DPS casters can not use cross-classed healing skills, ACN/SMN can not target another player with Psysick, DPS non-casters can not use their self-healing skills.

This results in players having to play the dungeons like they were designed, but unable to salvage a situation where the healer is dead. So this makes things largely more frustrating for hard content, as weak players can't be carried by strong players anymore.

4) CS cast time, time it can be used and cooldown are changed to make "full time" CS impossible. Otherwise unchanged.

- Let's say CS had a timer like Adloquium has, otherwise unchanged. This disincentive "spamming" DPS, while otherwise still allowing strategic use.
- If it had a longer CD before recast (eg 30 seconds,) then players would also consider more strategic use of DPS instead of full-time DPS.
- If it had instead a long cast time (like raise) that would also require more strategic use of DPS, or one could burn their swiftcast it if it's really needed.
- Players would complain that this makes spammable DPS actions useless to consider. Which is the point. The timer alone, or the timer combined with the longer CD would still be fair without making the healer a "preferred DPS" in content. A longer cast time would likely just make people not use it at all.


5) CS works more like Aetherflow, where CS must be used before Damage-only skills.

- If it could only be used "for the next 5 DPS actions" while a CD ticks down, that would also get rid of the "full time DPS WHM" while not destroying healing capacity. DPS damage-only skills would require that CS be used (So Aero, Aero II, and Stone II), using DPS skills with debuff effects (Stone I, Blizzard II, Holy, Fluid Aura) without CS would double the effect of the debuff (heavy, stun, bind,) while using CS before would also increase the DPS to the levels they are now.
- I think this is an interesting compromise, but it changes the skill mechanic too much, and likely players would think that WHM became "Scholarized"

6) CS goes back to V1.2 Mechanics where it only buffs DPS a flat 20% and debuffs healing 20%

- V1.2 also had Sacred Prism which turned some skills into a "Attack all targets" instead of single targets. A more strategic skill that turns the next DPS skill into an AOE or buffs the next cure? It's unrelated to the PvP action of the same name in the current version.
- You have to also consider how slow the pace of play was in 1.2. A "full time" turned on CS had no "stance dancing", and you couldn't just avoid AOE's by walking out of them. So in 1.2 CS was more strategic than it is now, as damage was a lot harder to avoid.

7) Turning CS on before selecting DF puts you into the DPS queue, and CS state is locked on. Turning CS off before entering DF puts you into the healer queue and does not allow you to turn CS on or off during combat.

- I think this is probably the most "fair" solution while minimizing the amount of existing complaints. Allows players to use healers as a DPS in a DPS role, allows players who want to heal-only or decide when to use CS on a battle-by-battle basis instead of the healer slot being consumed by players who only want a faster queue.
- This however requires re-evaluating game balance since Healer characters DPS output were never taken into consideration in designing the dungeons. Likewise it presents the potential problem of the healers being the "best" characters to use for all content. So even if a healer could queue as a DPS, the healer should not be able to out-DPS the dedicated DPS on otherwise identical BiS iLevel gear grades.
- This may cause players to want to kick healer characters that aren't in the role they want for the content selected.

8) Changing the CS mechanic so that it can not be toggled while in combat (like StoneSkin II)

- This would allow some instances to use only one healer, but would also result in a lot more players being kicked for using or not using CS.
- This would be consistent with some upcoming mechanics being talked about for the Astrologian but probably make certain healer roles less popular with those that want to DPS and those that do not want to DPS.

9) Leaving the CS mechanic as it is now, but locking out DPS skills/Healer skills

- This would make CS less error-prone, and players less likely to cast Swift-Holy without it.
- This would otherwise not solve the problem of "full-time DPS-healer"'s who queue as a healer for faster queues.

10) Leaving the CS mechanic as it is now, but removing it from the cross-classable skill list.

- This would make SCH unable to use it, and make the SCH a less viable DPS. It would likely also prevent the AST from being used as a DPS.
- This does nothing to solve the problem of players taking up healer slots in content and then only DPS'ing.


Some combination of the above may also work, allowing healers to just queue as DPS or Healers and giving a permanent CS buff/debuff while the CS skill itself is not available for DPS.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

yadda yadda yadda

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force removing an important mechanic of healer classes is not going to magically make bad healers good no matter how much you want to try and complain and justify it and it's not even a problem that needs fixing. Bad player misusing a skill is not the skills fault
With ninja threat manipulations skills coming soon, malicious player misusing skill will probably be even more common of a problem. Will you be back asking for skills entirely based on party play be disabled in parties then?

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Originally Posted by Nihility

force removing an important mechanic of healer classes is not going to magically make bad healers good no matter how much you want to try and complain and justify it and it's not even a problem that needs fixing.

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In the context of the game, it would require making the game so extremely inflexible that you can do nothing but follow the choreography, rather than actually decide what is is a best use of MP and Cooldowns.

If we wanted to get rid of "players with bad intent" rather than encourage good behaviors, locking out CS in dungeons would be the lowest-effort solution. Rather the game needs to give players what they want, which is allowing healers to queue as DPS so their DPS actually matters, leaving the healer slot to the players that actually queued to do healing. Maybe we can call these players "red healers" and change the icon from green to red.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If we wanted to get rid of "players with bad intent" rather than encourage good behaviors, locking out CS in dungeons would be the lowest-effort solution.

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How would that be a "solution". For any content where DPS checks are a thing, the blame gets shifted to someone else and turns the situation into a blame game. In other words: Nothing new, just a different scapegoat. However, it is a fact that each encounter has a certain required healing output during specific moments of the encounter. If this healing output is met, the party stays in good shape. If it's not met, then the party will slowly bleed out. But no encounter requires both healers to be healing full time, just like how tanks aren't both tanking full time. Or are you going to argue that tanks should always be tanking like how healers should always be healing?

Dealing damage as a healer is not mandatory. No one ever stated that. It is a big plus and definitely something to aim for when a player's trying to improve their own capabilities and competence. Inability to do so is simply lack of practice. Unwilling to do so, on the other hand, could be classified as laziness or responsibility dodging. You know what it's called if a healer contributes with damage? It's making the encounter more forgiving. Maybe not for the healers themselves, but definitely for those who are "supposed" to do damage. You probably won't get recognition for doing so or any commendations for it. But glory hogs among healers is a different story.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Rather the game needs to give players what they want, which is allowing healers to queue as DPS so their DPS actually matters, leaving the healer slot to the players that actually queued to do healing. Maybe we can call these players "red healers" and change the icon from green to red.

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This isn't much different from "rather giving players what they want"

Edit:
Before you requote on me, KisaiTenshi, go read this first:

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

I just can't get over the fact that there are players so vexed that others try to play well and maximize their job that they want to drag everyone down to their level. And they don't see the irony in this, in getting incredibly mad that people are enjoying a meta towards DPS and their solution is to force others to play the way they like playing instead.

Imagine you're driving on the road and there's a stubborn, bitter cyclist on the road ahead. Instead of giving way they just block traffic and make everyone go their pace. That's what this boils down to, small insecure people who want to make job boring and tedious to a lot of players because even though they get mad when others tell them how to do their job, they want to do the same back.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Rather the game needs to give players what they want, which is allowing healers to queue as DPS so their DPS actually matters, leaving the healer slot to the players that actually queued to do healing. Maybe we can call these players "red healers" and change the icon from green to red.

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I don't recall ever running into a healer who only wanted to DPS; I have never met a healer who queued up as a healer just to DPS because the queue was faster, and people entering CS doesn't mean they focus on dealing damage rather than healing. Like I asked in the other thread, why does it seem like it's all or nothing with you? You seem to have an issue grasping that a good healer in FFXIV can keep the party alive and can also deal damage during healing down time.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

~Snip~

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Why even bother playing the game if all you're trying to do is encourage the lowest common denominator with zero allowance for deviation? Where's the fun in that? I enjoy having the tools to encourage high levels of play and adaptability. Please do not take that away from me.

I can't believe this is even being debated, really.

To answer the original question, no. I'd never use it.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The problem is the mechanic itself means that when you are in CS, you are not being a (effective) healer.

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I assume that you mean that literally, and it is true in that sense, but in the bigger picture it's important to note that CS makes for incredibly effective healers. Unnecessary healing converted to additional damage = more efficient progress towards duty completion and fewer opportunities for bad things to happen.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

This results in players having to play the dungeons like they were designed.

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You're positioning your own assumptions as fact again. Unless you can page Yoshida over here or else find a quote that says something to the effect of "Despite having given healers (and off-tanks, for that matter) abilities to increase their damage, it never, ever occurred to us that players would want to use them to complete duties more quickly," you can't credibly throw out statements about "how dungeons were designed" or "what the developers intended."

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I don't recall ever running into a healer who only wanted to DPS; I have never met a healer who queued up as a healer just to DPS because the queue was faster, and people entering CS doesn't mean they focus on dealing damage rather than healing.

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Really? Because I get those like... 35-50% of the time in DF queues, if the content is level 50. It really is an issue; though generally speaking it can be solved with a vote kick if the healer is being a jerk about it. My main issue personally is them doing too much damage(Mostly just holy spam), and while I'm cool with healers DPSing if they're comfortable with it, it should never invalidate the people dedicated to DPS with the longer queues. So seeing things like "We need more attack skills SE can we have Holygajablahblah" or "I want more water spells give me more fluid auras" or "If you take away CS I won't heal and that means no one will heal and you'll never get to do a dungeon again so nyah" both discourages debate of things like balance and makes me wonder how many healers value DPSing above healing. That should not be a thing- the "Healer is DPS with a faster queue" mentality exists because of just how high their damage potential is and how ignorable healing is for the most part when you overgear content.

Personally, I think the best solution is to nerf Cleric Stance, as well(Or holy. Ughhhh holy.). But y'know, not remove it being toggled in combat at all. Though it would solve the problem, it'd overdo it. I recognize any nerfing of healer damage will make healers just shout and cry and claw innocent people and creatures' eyes out because the healing community is the loudest to cry about problems outside the summoners, but I think a simple solution might just be to make Cleric Stance swap a percentage of INT and MND, as opposed to all of it. It'd mean their damage potential isn't enough to outdo DPS in any situation, and that if they mess up stancedancing or something goes wrong their healing isn't entirely destroyed. Maybe like 75-80% instead of 100%.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

My main issue personally is them doing too much damage(Mostly just holy spam)

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*blink* What? I think this is the first time I've ever seen anyone admit to being annoyed that their dungeon runs or add phases were taking less time due to Holy use. Holy is a useless spell for boss fights (except the odd fight with lots of adds), and everyone wants to clear trash faster anyway, so what's the issue? You also can't really compare WHM AoE to, say, MNK AoE. If you compare it to that of a strong AoE DPS Job like BLM, the BLM will pull ahead for several reasons (e.g. Holy having a hefty MP cost, the WHM lacking sufficient MP sustain to keep it up perpetually, the BLM having enormous potency during AF phase, and the WHM occasionally having things to do like, say, healing).

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

It'd mean their damage potential isn't enough to outdo DPS in any situation.

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Given that the majority of DPS players don't even approach their damage potential in any situation right now, no thank you. If more players really tried to improve and to play well, we wouldn't even be discussing this right now. An excellent healer can and will out-damage a poor DPS in most any situation, but the same can be said of a tank vs. DPS, especially the OT.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Why even bother playing the game if all you're trying to do is encourage the lowest common denominator with zero allowance for deviation? Where's the fun in that? I enjoy having the tools to encourage high levels of play and adaptability. Please do not take that away from me.

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Isn't that what I said? Not much fun in an inflexible designs. But at the same time, if you make every role a DPS, then every dungeon run is a race to the finish instead of a collaborative effort. Games that do this are worse, because then it encourages just soloing the content through brute-force, and is no fun for anyone but the first player to do it.

Each "pull" without a tank should flatten a party in 5 seconds. Each pull without a healer should cause a wipe in 5 seconds. Each pull without any DPS should take an agonizingly long time as the tank and healer would have to slow-burn the mobs down. Anything other than than this for the "3-role" system in FFXIV is a bad dungeon design balance. If you lose the tank or healer during a pull then it really should be a wipe, every time.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I assume that you mean that literally, and it is true in that sense, but in the bigger picture it's important to note that CS makes for incredibly effective healers. Unnecessary healing converted to additional damage = more efficient progress towards duty completion and fewer opportunities for bad things to happen.

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Right, the DPS-WHM who enters the dungeon in CS, and never turns it off, is certainly playing poorly, especially when the SCH co-healer might have better DPS output with much less risk. But as I mentioned before, players are certainly queuing as healer and then choosing not to heal on 8-man/24-man content.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

You're positioning your own assumptions as fact again. Unless you can page Yoshida over here or else find a quote that says something to the effect of "Despite having given healers (and off-tanks, for that matter) abilities to increase their damage, it never, ever occurred to us that players would want to use them to complete duties more quickly," you can't credibly throw out statements about "how dungeons were designed" or "what the developers intended."

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That's exactly what is being said.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-Event-5-19%29

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Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

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The dungeons are designed against the DPS output at the minimum ilevel minus 15% to clear it. Up until this interview was posted, there was some posters who were adamant that healer DPS was required to get past all DPS checks regardless of gear. NO. Only if the DPS is being carried by the healer. If everyone is overgeared, the added DPS from the healer shaves a few seconds off a clear. If the Healer is geared better than the DPS to a point that the dungeon can't be cleared without their DPS output, then the DPS just plain are terrible at their job.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

*blink* What? I think this is the first time I've ever seen anyone admit to being annoyed that their dungeon runs or add phases were taking less time due to Holy use. Holy is a useless spell for boss fights (except the odd fight with lots of adds), and everyone wants to clear trash faster anyway, so what's the issue? You also can't really compare WHM AoE to, say, MNK AoE. If you compare it to that of a strong AoE DPS Job like BLM, the BLM will pull ahead for several reasons (e.g. Holy having a hefty MP cost, the WHM lacking sufficient MP sustain to keep it up perpetually, the BLM having enormous potency during AF phase, and the WHM occasionally having things to do like, say, healing).

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You know which bosses are good for Holy? The MSQ because they have lots of adds. Outside of those, I can't think of one where all the adds dogpile onto the healer.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Given that the majority of DPS players don't even approach their damage potential in any situation right now, no thank you. If more players really tried to improve and to play well, we wouldn't even be discussing this right now. An excellent healer can and will out-damage a poor DPS in most any situation, but the same can be said of a tank vs. DPS, especially the OT.

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If there was a way to implicitly queue for DPS using a Tank or Healer, with a permanent stance-lock, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because then those that don't want to MT or don't want to Heal can just DPS and quit taking up the "fast queue" , it's bad enough that there aren't enough players who want to play the roles.

I'm actually surprised SE doesn't have dungeon mechanics that specifically target one healer in a way that would make "fast queue"'ers think twice. Like imagine a mechanic that causes all players to drop to 1hp and if both healers don't use their party healing in the next 5 second the entire party wipes.

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Originally Posted by Atlaworks

snip

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I've personally run into healers who refuse to use CS. They will sit at 100% MP aND do nothing if healing is not required.

I have run into healers who cast Cure II and Medica II randomly, and do nothing else.

I've had co-healers who did nothing at all.

I have never seen a healer try to be a 5/6th DPS.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That's exactly what is being said.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-Event-5-19%29


The dungeons are designed against the DPS output at the minimum ilevel minus 15% to clear it.

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Right, here's where you make up your own little story again. You should pay closer attention to this part:

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Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

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Meaning: BCOB turn 2+ weren't designed for i70, SCOB turn 2+ weren't designed for i90 and FCOB turn 2+ weren't designed for i110. While those were the highest level equipment obtainable before you could do coil - With exception of BCOB as it was introduced with the maximum item level at that time.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I've personally run into healers who refuse to use CS. They will sit at 100% MP aND do nothing if healing is not required.

I have run into healers who cast Cure II and Medica II randomly, and do nothing else.

I've had co-healers who did nothing at all.

I have never seen a healer try to be a 5/6th DPS.

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You should really buy a jumbo cactpot ticket.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Erm...

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If I can be completely honest, half the time I queue as healer because I can pull out a lot of dps, with the minor annoyance of having to occasionally throw up a heal or two.