Healers advice for tanks

I found it interesting from another discussion that dragging a mob along to the next pack can disrupt the healer role, I think it was mp regeneration.

But as someone who has yet to level a healer, I was curious as to what else I may do that makes life for my healers difficult. I was wondering what the most common tank faux pas are? Or even some of the not so common? What do we do to make you close your eyes, slap your forehead and shake your head?

Chain pulling in that fashion is frustrating as a whm that likes to holy, I'm counting on the out of battle ticks to replenish my mp. Plus, I like to buff with stoneskin or adloquium just before the last mob in a pack dies, which is more difficult when the tank takes off before the last mob is dead. It's not usually a huge deal, but killing everything allows for a more streamlined process, where everyone starts every pull with near full HP/MP/TP, which is always nice when dealing with bigger pulls.

The only other thing that tans my hide is when a tank pulls a train for a speed run, and fails to tag each mob as they are picked up. Grabbing everything lets me re-stoneskin/galvanize mid pull if necessary, and let's me start cure bombing right away with much less risk of pulling hate.

Otherwise, a tank that follows the basics, holds hate, mitigates, and positions mobs tightly and keeping cleaves off the party, is doing fine by me.

"Things that make healing difficult" that Tanks do include:

1) Dragging mobs doesn't reset aggro so
- Natural MP/HP regen doesn't return to 3X rate
- Skills that can't be used during combat can't be used (eg StoneSkin II), The Praetorium is super-bad for this when skipping groups of monsters, because they never release their aggro-lock.

2) OverPulling/Speedpulling without saying where you're going to stop.
- In some other dungeons it's possible for the geography of the dungeon to get in the way, so avoid taking corners (usually at the end of stairs), otherwise the heals will miss if the healer isn't directly behind you.

3) Standing in avoidable AOE's on purpose, this is something newbies do. If you're still doing this by level 30, stop tanking.

4) Not using the Tank stance (Defiance/Shield Oath.) So if you're not using them in dungeons, the healer is probably pulling enmity away from you every second heal.

5) Not waiting for stoneskin (WHM/CNJ) before overpulling/boss-pulling.

6) Not waiting for MP/TP to regenerate on all players before pulling the boss.

7) Not calling MT in CT. I think I end up in the party with the main tank more than half the time, but I don't really know this until the boss has a target. At least twice I've been in parties with the MT, and the MT gets 1-hit-stomped several seconds in. If you're not geared enough, don't call MT.

Shield Oath is level 40

Those that love doing big pulls will hate you for pulling small groups in a never ending battle train.
Those that love doing small pulls in a never ending battle train will hate you for pulliing big groups :/

There is just no way to make everyone happy...

But everyone loves a Tank that keeps the mobs on them and needs as little heals as possible.

I find it pretty rare that tanks drag half dead mobs to the next pack, thankfully. It's generally impractical due to the fact that your out of combat regeneration doesn't kick in when dragging mobs like that, which can lead to MP/TP issues, especially when AoEing.

One common sin is that the majority of the tanks I encounter through the Duty Finder are really bad at using defensive abilities. They virtually go unused the entire dungeon run unless I let them drop to 20% remaining HP or something (usually planned, I tend to Holy spam and Benediction the tank to continue Holy spamming whenever Benediction's off cooldown, pretty much), which is amazingly annoying on really large pulls (3+ packs). And tank busters will more or less never be mitigated, even with a 5 second cast time and blinking neon sign telegraphs.

Edit: I was also just reminded of the other extreme of this issue. Tanks (or heck, even DPS) who pop every single cooldown they have before the pull, wait like five-ten seconds, wasting between all of the cooldown or half of it once the boss is actually engaged. I've had some especially dumb Warriors start off with Berserk, activate everything, and then get Pacified as they bodypull the boss. You can imagine how smooth the pull is in that scenario, even with a quick Esuna. :p

Paladins are usually good enough at switching to Sword Oath when not tanking, but Warriors will more often than not continue off-tanking/DPSing in Defiance. -_-

The worst things that I'm annoyed with everytime it happens :

- The tank pulls when I'm still in the middle of casting shield/stoneskin.
- The tank starts running, pulls a few mobs, stops, flash flash flash, then keeps running to the next pack for a "bigger" pack. Well, as soon as you stopped, I assumed we were gonna fight, and I burst my cd such as Divine Seal, Presence of Mind... All that for nothing.

- The tank pulls a huge pack, then thinks it's enough, stops, and "stands" without doing anything else than a mere flash combo. When it's a large pack, it may occur that the tank is already below 30% hp when he stops running. To top you off, we need something else than "Cure". So we may need "Cure 2" or even a "benediction" and when we are in such situation, we cannot wait until you're finished settling all the mobs. To prevent that, I really like when the tank can cast "Invincible" on himself (even better when announced in chat) just before he finishes pulling, so that we can tell "Ok, he casted it, I can afford to wait a bit to cast my cures and give him time to settle aggro well".
- A tank is usually our primary target, we don't need a tank to call for "Berserk ends, debuff me please". We already know. (at least if the healer is good enough)
- Anything that involves "healing improvement" should be annouced in the chatbox. You cast "Convalescence" ? Let us know ! Our healing may vary depending on it.
- About "Cover". Not many healers are aware of that skill. They see themselves being "buffed", and don't have a clue about what that icon means. I've seen some even trying to dispell it...Very often, they'll even run away and get out of range. A macro will help . "I cover you, <t>, please stay close"
- Provocation deserves an announcement (same as switching MT/OT). As an example, I was running WoD yesterday, and MT wasn't in my party. I thought "Fine then, I'll go fill a meteor, as I can sprint". By the time I went back to the boss, tanks had switched and I found my tank dead.

I want to echo what some other people have said: poor cooldown use, dragging mobs to new packs so I cant get out of combat regen, popping 3-5 cooldowns right before pulling, cutting corners while multipulling, and failing to tag targets while multipulling are big ones for me.

The three biggest though are pulling before everyone is ready, ignorance of mobs attacking the healer, and improper use of provoke.

1) Pulling before everyone is ready: Alright, I get it. A lot of people are in a hurry and want to get things done. But if your healer currently has 200 mana or half your party is watching the mid trial cutscene in Battle in the Big Keep, it may be a good idea to wait for just a little bit longer. That's all I ask. Really.

2) Ignorance of mobs attacking the healer: Not noticing, or failing to get something off of me when I'm not even using holy or aoe healing. This has been cropping up a lot when I've been helping with King Mog HM, where people keep letting me tank Ruffletuft in the first phase. There are two tanks, that shouldn't ever happen. Sometimes, people even make me tank both of the "tanky" moogles after the second phase starts, indefinitely. I can do this somewhat if I run out at the appropriate times, but this ties me up in self healing and basically forces the second healer to do everything else. If I get a charm + ruffletuft whirlwind? Bye bye. Basically, all I'm asking here is that I don't have to do ridiculous amounts of tanking for the entire fight. Oh, and just provoking isn't going to work. I probably have regen going just to survive, and that's just going to bring it right back, which brings me to...

3) Improper use of provoke: I would call this the worst offense but for one simple reason: the tooltip on provoke is very unclear about what it actually does. So for any inexperienced tank who might be reading this, here you go: provoke puts you one threat point above the next highest person on that target. That means anything, a cure, a regen or medica II tick, a single attack ability, is going to take that back. How do you solve this? By establishing dominance after provoking, of course. Always follow up with a tomohawk/shield toss at a distance or a skull sunder / savage blade / rage of halone / butcher's block at close range. I heard the second piece of the combo (skull / savage) can be pretty effective because it hits faster, but someone can correct me if that's wrong. Anyway, this is very important. I see so many tanks who try to use provoke as a stand alone threat ability, and then I get sad when the mob goes right back to the other target. Sometimes, they even do it when they're well into the lead, and then a dps catches up to them because they threw themselves backward in threat. Don't do this.

I hate most, when I've yet to identify if the tank intends to pull big mobs (as I -rarely ever- get a notification of 'big pulls' beforehand) - they stop at a mob and mull around a few moments at the mob..... so I assume they're not collecting more. So, I cure to top off and add Regen... and they take off again to go collect more for a bigger pull. >_>
If for what ever reason was needed to stop (checking aggro is tagged on all, etc)... if you see the regen, either click it off or don't continue running x.x

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Originally Posted by Echoloc

Shield Oath is level 40

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I had to mention this because yesterday I had a tank in Cutters Cry who was level 38 using Sword Oath (which is 30) and not Shield Oath (which is 40) and every heal would change the Enmity from green to yellow, and a second heal would turn it red. So I have no idea if the tank knew that was happening, but he was losing HP rather fast so I figured either he was doing something wrong or was poorly geared. But he had all those other level 50's so I was like ????

It is highly impractical for the tank to tag every single mob as they are pulling, every time you flash during the pull is 1 less time before needing to riot blade during the kill.

This can lead to 2-3 less flashes on each mob and in turn agro on the whm or blm from their aoe spam. The tank is better off using sprint and running straight to the pack they intend on stopping at while everyone follows behind (this is a pally perspective btw, warrior I dunno use overpower or something). When they get to the pack they want to finish at, EVERYONE needs a second or 2 of patience, dps, heals, tanks.

The final pack won't do enough damage to take the tank down low and if they sprinted past they should still have a good chunk of stoneskin. When the rest of the mobs get close pop a BIG cooldown first, sentinel or bulwark for that big initial hit and start flash spam.

After the first flash gets everything divine seal regen cure 2 top the tank up and cleric stance holy spam, bulwark or sentinel should be just wearing off as you start up your holy. The tank now has 7 seconds of stun time where they wont take any damage and the divine sealed regen should top them up during that 7 seconds for the damage taken during that first holy. As soon as they see the 1 second stun icon, pop rampart/convalescence or foresight depending on which is up. Continue holy spam as much as you can until tank needs heals.

You might say well the tank can just riot blade and get that mp back and then flash again, this is inefficient though and results in needing to wait for the tanks mp to regen back up between pulls. One full bar of flashing is usually enough to hold hate against a full hp bar worth of damage on a mob, the tank should drain themselves completely and then riot back up so that they can do the next pull right away for the quickest possible run. Next pull same thing, pop the other big cooldown, wait til 1 second holy stun, rampart/foresight.

Of course this all requires coordination though and is usually reserved for FC/friends groups, in df you never really know what the healer or tank is going to do next so its easier on everyone to just take it a bit slower.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

It is highly impractical for the tank to tag every single mob as they are pulling, every time you flash during the pull is 1 less time before needing to riot blade during the kill.

This can lead to 2-3 less flashes on each mob and in turn agro on the whm or blm from their aoe spam. The tank is better off using sprint and running straight to the pack they intend on stopping at while everyone follows behind (this is a pally perspective btw, warrior I dunno use overpower or something). When they get to the pack they want to finish at, EVERYONE needs a second or 2 of patience, dps, heals, tanks.

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I wouldn't recommend tagging with flash, for the very reason you stated. When I'm tanking, I shield lob enemies as they run behind me, or use CoS and spirits within as I pass by. I've tried the sprint method, and it is viable, but it requires more coordination and communication, as you said. By tagging everything I assure that I have a lead on everything before the battle even starts, and I still have full mp to start flash spamming. Just my take on it.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

I wouldn't recommend tagging with flash, for the very reason you stated. When I'm tanking, I shield lob enemies as they run behind me, or use CoS and spirits within as I pass by. I've tried the sprint method, and it is viable, but it requires more coordination and communication, as you said. By tagging everything I assure that I have a lead on everything before the battle even starts, and I still have full mp to start flash spamming. Just my take on it.

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Imo, this the better approach in a DF setting as opposed to sprinting off.
This gives the healer the opportunity to refresh Stoneskin along the way and use E4E early and need no communication really.

I've had tanks with melee accessories stance swapping all the time trying to pull more dps, result? -70 encdps for me, +20 dps for the tank from the usual dungeon run. Only made my life harder for no goddamn good reason.

So yea my only advice is if your healer is willing to dps, don't make the healer life harder and go full mitigation (at least melded str acc, not melee poetics crap). Mobs die faster mainly if the whm goes holy happy.

Tank stance dancing in a SR setting is a bad idea regardless of gearing.
For a WAR Str accs in Defiance works perfectly fine, while PLD and Speedrun is mostly flashing and I don't see the benefit in Str geared PLD in a Speedrun.

Tanks that don't do anything to hold hate or seemingly don't realize that heals get massive aggro simply for healing. My last tank yesterday would mark a pack of mobs and aggro them all but then do nothing to keep the hate on himself.

The tanks who, once I get aggro, do nothing about it, even when I run to them. I've run to you. The mob's right there, eating my behind. Do you thing. Don't make me scream 'halp! halp! halp! I'm dying!' in party chat. XD

Then there was that one time a tank actually ran off to pull another pack of mobs while I had a mob from the pack before still chomping on me. It's like 'hello! Please don't run off to kill another group while I'm tanking this mob for you... >________>'

To sum it up: tanks who aren't aware of what's happening beside killing the mob.

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Originally Posted by EmeraldAres

I heard the second piece of the combo (skull / savage) can be pretty effective because it hits faster, but someone can correct me if that's wrong.

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The third hit does significantly more enmity than the third, but (for paladins at least) it doesn't do anything until its overly-long animation completes. The second hit generates less enmity but has a much quicker animation, so it's more useful for generating aggro fast after a provoke.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

3) Standing in avoidable AOE's on purpose, this is something newbies do. If you're still doing this by level 30, stop tanking.

6) Not waiting for MP/TP to regenerate on all players before pulling the boss.

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These are my little pet peeves. And-

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5) Not waiting for stoneskin (WHM/CNJ) before overpulling/boss-pulling.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

- The tank pulls when I'm still in the middle of casting shield/stoneskin.

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These, these, especially these.


And also (I didn't see it mentioned), tanks should acquaint themselves with their ability to manually remove Regen or Medica II if they are in a rush. I personally am self-conscious about not refreshing HoTs when I feel the pack will die before majority of the duration of the HoTs will finish, but there are those times where Medica II or maybe even possibly Regen will have 2 or 3 seconds left when you grab the next pack. I think we have an idea of what hapens next.


And before anyone jumps on me about it, I don't condone putting up Regen or Medica II right before the mobs die, but sometimes the timing just so happens that way and the next pack isn't a very far run. That and I do see it happen to other WHMs when I'm not on healer. The ensuing shenanigans are preventable.

Eh, don't really care what you do outside of raids as long as you keep aggro and use your cooldowns. I've more miffed by tanks that won't use cooldowns during trash pulls, thinking they're saving them for bosses, than anything else listed in this thread so far.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

So yea my only advice is if your healer is willing to dps, don't make the healer life harder and go full mitigation (at least melded str acc, not melee poetics crap). Mobs die faster mainly if the whm goes holy happy.

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This is less a fault of gear and more a fault of the tank's skill. Though I do agree as a general rule, if you're not a great tank and your healer is DPSing then you shouldn't be bothering with full STR accessories.

Tanks please wait the five seconds for your buffs.

Like seriously nothing makes me angrier than running off without Protect. I don't care if you don't "need" it, it's a courtesy thing. Is it so hard to stand for a second????

Tanks that insist on mass pulls and refuse to tag all the enemies are my biggest pet peeve. If you don't tag them, I can't heal you or else I'm tanking. If you're at 150 HP when you STOP pulling, you are going to die. Use effing cool downs and tag everything as you run and THEN you'll be a proper tank.

Pop your cooldowns and avoid dmg. Don't force us to be heal slaves.

Wait for mp regen before aggroing the boss. It's the right thing to do.

In my experience with healing, (relatively meager though it may be compared to people who heal as their main), Tanks need to try and at least consider that we healers are not gods, especially when using the duty roulette to enter lower dungeons where we lack our endgame abilities. I've seen more than a few tanks who go from running end game content with two healers to re-running small dungeons and grabbing large groups of enemies that do more damage than a single healer can manage. They then proceed to blame the healer. I've also seen this when I've gone in as DPS, so it's not simply because my skill is lacking in the matter. This usually happens within the first few groups of enemies, so I guess what I'm really saying is to take it slow at first on the healer instead of simply assuming they can fix whatever you throw at them. Other than that, one thing I recommend is to try and keep your healer in your line of sight. If they start to cast a healing spell and you walk around the corner, it cancels it which means you not only don't get that health restoration, but now they have to rush to catch up and start to recast to keep you alive....

It drives me insane when tanks pull huge mobs. Especially when it's someone's first time in a dungeon. I find it really inconsiderate. The amount of times a tank has ran through collecting huge groups of enemies and I've had to waste stacks to lustrate them to keep them alive.

The worst case was when I recently did Ampador for the first time and made it clear in the chat box I was new and the tank ran all the way to the first boss door, died, then I got it in the neck. It's really unfair.

Tanks, if you're going to speed run an Expert Roulette dungeon, pop your defensive buffs. For those who are going tank when their tanks are low geared, DO NOT QUEUE AS TANK IN EXPERT ROULETTE!

If their gear level allows them to queue for expert roulette why shouldn't they...
just don't try to SR it with low end gear

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Tanks, if you're going to speed run an Expert Roulette dungeon, pop your defensive buffs. For those who are going tank when their tanks are low geared, DO NOT QUEUE AS TANK IN EXPERT ROULETTE!

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i would say make a premade group. if you go random you have to deal with it. (new) tanks need stones / alexmaps / whatever too.

Another quick question, for some dungeons, I can have trouble holding enmity with regen up. Is this to do with the timing of the cast? Do I need to work on my rotations, or is there an optimum time to cast regen that doesn't impact enmity as much?

if the names of the monsters are not red (you have only face-aggro) the healer will pull aggro with any heal. if regen is up and you are pulling new mobs the healer will pull instant aggro. you can remove regen from yourself. or you just let the healer die xD depends on the situation. the healer should not cast regen pre-pull.

Regen should only be a problem if you have it up while pulling.
Like Tint said, check your buffs (if paried with WHM) and click off regen before you pull.

If the healer is still getting aggro by "normal" healing (= regen + occasional cures) you are doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i would say make a premade group. if you go random you have to deal with it. (new) tanks need stones / alexmaps / whatever too.

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Being new doesn't mean the same as someone going in as tank for the tank bonus. People that want to be tank TRY, there is a difference.

You were just bashing the gear.

In my experience they guy jumping in for the bonus is most likely in Soldiery/WoD gear and not using CD and such, so while they blow it's not a gearing issue.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

Tanks, if you're going to speed run an Expert Roulette dungeon, pop your defensive buffs. For those who are going tank when their tanks are low geared, DO NOT QUEUE AS TANK IN EXPERT ROULETTE!

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Expert roulette dungeons drop ilvl 100 gear and awards substantial poetic tomes for completing. Sure sounds ideal for a tank looking to gear up. If they take it easy and use cooldowns, there should be no issue for them. If they lose hate, surely the healer can handle a stray mob. Don't be selfish, the run won't take 60 minutes unless the tank is bad, in which case things will be messy regardless of ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Tint

if the names of the monsters are not red (you have only face-aggro) the healer will pull aggro with any heal. if regen is up and you are pulling new mobs the healer will pull instant aggro. you can remove regen from yourself. or you just let the healer die xD depends on the situation. the healer should not cast regen pre-pull.

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I swear asking tanks to click off regen is like pulling teeth. I'm forced to memorize the time between pulls so I can space out regens. Sometimes I don't even pop regen due to derptanks wanting to SR but can't hold hate and pull by running into mobs....

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Originally Posted by Tint

if the names of the monsters are not red (you have only face-aggro) the healer will pull aggro with any heal. if regen is up and you are pulling new mobs the healer will pull instant aggro. you can remove regen from yourself. or you just let the healer die xD depends on the situation. the healer should not cast regen pre-pull.

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This is gold info for me. You just saved some lucky healers life in the future :)

Most of what I can think of for tanks making healing harder is already mentioned here. The tanks not realising they can remove "Regen" or the similar heal over time effect of Medica II being one of the more common one in that tanks don't honestly seem to know about it. Sure, no healer who know their job places it intentionally on the tank pre pull. But as much as tanks on occasion missing a mob who comes to chew healer (can be fixed by tank picking it up), or dps accidentally picking a wrong target to shoot (can be fixed by changing the target) healer can judge a situation or timing a bit wrong and place it so towards the end of the fight (what, they killed all the mobs already) that it's still ticking during the next pull. Except here the healer can't really fix it herself, the tank needs to disable the buff. And as one tank said when I tried to mention of it, "I don't watch my buffs"

In relation to that, one thing tanks (as well as dps) could do to ease healers work, watch your debuffs. Throughout the content there is stuff that can't be removed, and which should be taken into accord. From a WoD run, "please, if you have piles of vulnerability debuffs stacked up, don't try to tank or take meteors unless absolutely necessary."

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Originally Posted by Tint

if the names of the monsters are not red (you have only face-aggro) the healer will pull aggro with any heal. if regen is up and you are pulling new mobs the healer will pull instant aggro. you can remove regen from yourself. or you just let the healer die xD depends on the situation. the healer should not cast regen pre-pull.

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This is gold info for me. You just saved some lucky healers life in the future :)

I think most people covered annoying things Tanks do in this thread. Tanks not claiming threat on mobs then expecting me to heal them on the run or to be able to keep running and claim all mobs with 100hp and be saved. Then they die and call me a trash Healer while the DPS giggle. Tanks with no idea how CD's work who have armor made of paper that try to speed pull. You will be cut to ribbons you can maybe be saved once by benediction. Then i get called a trash Healer for not being able to keep them alive with desperate cure II's and regen with divine seal.

If you stop with a bunch of mobs i am going to start my healing and holy process. Do not keep going. I am not a mind reader i don't know how many mobs you can pull or how many you intend to pull i can only react to you as i watch you and sprint to stay with whatever you are doing. Don't ever Tank on a ramp then run up and down it with mobs it can LoS the healer causing them to miss heals. The last pull on KotL is a pain in the ass for this.

Most importantly the mark of a great Tank is not keeping aggro it's knowing when you have lost it. The threat table changes constantly and there will be times a massive DPS crit or a heal chain pulls aggro from you. That snap back is something the best Tanks can pull off the mob barely ran away from them and they got it back. Just remember threat,positioning and CD's if you can handle these three things i think you can become every Healers dream Tank the kind that makes it super easy on them so they have much more freedom to help the group have the quickest run.

Another thing worthy of note that a lot of Tanks ignore or don't know about you can turn regen off. At the top where you see your buffs list or wherever you keep it on your UI you can right click on regen and turn it off if you have some time left or you are about to pull another pack and it was put on you.

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Originally Posted by Niamh_Rillemaugh

Eh, don't really care what you do outside of raids as long as you keep aggro and use your cooldowns. I've more miffed by tanks that won't use cooldowns during trash pulls, thinking they're saving them for bosses, than anything else listed in this thread so far.

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I'm going to second this one, particularly with big pulls. Most things I can work around. This... on small pulls it cripples my ability to stance dance, on big pulls it can dramatically increase the chance of OOM/wiping.