3 Star token rotation help

So I am finally able to 3 star NQ for weaver, gsm, and carpenter but hit a wall. All of the 3 star token HQ rotations have tricks of the trade but never figured I would need it. I have WVR GSM CUL CPT all at 50 and the rest 15. Is there a non ToT rotation to HQ 3 star?

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Originally Posted by cramerb535

So I am finally able to 3 star NQ for weaver, gsm, and carpenter but hit a wall. All of the 3 star token HQ rotations have tricks of the trade but never figured I would need it. I have WVR GSM CUL CPT all at 50 and the rest 15. Is there a non ToT rotation to HQ 3 star?

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I'm gonna need some more details here, but are you referring to the tokens for Manual IIs? The ones you need 3 hq of? Because those are only 3 stars in visuals.. they're probably among the toughest crafts you'll have to do.. You need ToT to get as much cp as possible to bait for an excellent/good condition on your byregots.

BTW, if you're getting into 3 stars, I recommend you get the rest of your classes to 50.. You'll start needing Piece by Piece, Rapid Synthesis, Ingenuity II, Comfort Zone.. pretty much all the level 50 cross classes come into play at 3 stars.. Interestingly, Innovation kinda starts being useless..

If you're uncomfortable with having to rely on RNG and reclaiming, I'd suggest you don't go beyond 3 stars anyway.. Since all the crafts beyond that point is going to be much of the same, if you don't enjoy the gut wrenching feeling of failing hasty touches 3-4 times in a row on a 1.5 million gil craft, you could either increase your bank roll so it hurts less, or you could just stop at 2 stars.

CP is the most important stat a crafter has. The more CP you have, the longer you can keep a synth going and the higher you can pump its quality. So, abilities that EARN you CP, or SAVE you CP are among the most important abilities you have. Comfort Zone and Tricks of the Trade both earn you CP. Hasty Touch and Rapid Synthesis both save you CP.

Rather than ask for a rotation that doesn't use TotT, instead get used to using it. 3- and 4-star synths, you should be mashing TotT pretty much any time you see a Good condition pop up.

If you're asking for an "automatic" macro, one where you can press a button and the macro will grind out a HQ product for you - no such thing exists. Even with optimal gear, it is not currently possible to have enough CP to guarantee a HQ synth on 3- and 4-star crafts (or even a significantly high chance of a HQ synth) without using TotT to extend your CP pool.

Is there a reason that you're against using ToT? These are already <100% recipes, and not having/using important skills makes them even harder. If you keep throwing money at them eventually you can make it, but in the end it would be faster and cheaper just to get your other crafts to 50 and learn how to use the skills.

If you are referring to Master books II turn in items, then no, you cannot do it without Tricks of the Trade. These are the hardest recipes to HQ in this game (hardest = RNG if you prefer).

Without TOTT, you will get like 15% change of HQ at each craft. That's not enough when it comes to Fieldcraft demima III x2 recipe. You'll throw away millions of gils for your crafts.

If you want to become a 4* crafter, I would advice you to get all your crafts at 50 to unlock all the cross class skills. This is not such a big deal with Ixaly daily quests. They are doing tons of xp.

If you get all your crafts at 50, just click this link for the turn in tokens rotation (one page of my personal crafting rotations guide).

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Originally Posted by cramerb535

So I am finally able to 3 star NQ for weaver, gsm, and carpenter but hit a wall. All of the 3 star token HQ rotations have tricks of the trade but never figured I would need it. I have WVR GSM CUL CPT all at 50 and the rest 15. Is there a non ToT rotation to HQ 3 star?

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What are you talking about? ToT is a level 15 alchemist ability. Why would you not have this?

Unless you're talking about Comfort Zone (level 50 alc ability)? You *can* do anything without comfort zone, it's just going to be harder to do.

@OP

Short Answer: No.

As others have said, you need to lvl up your other classes. BSM ARM and ALC especially

You'll be using their lvl50 actions fo shizzle

Edit: Any method without CZ, Ing2, PbP would require a lot of good RNG that you're never going to get.

As stated level other jobs to 50 even with max melds everything 50 these are purely luck based with a tiny amount of skill required

RNG RNG RNG RNG RNG

last night did my wvr book, iq5 popped waste not II had 11 attempts of hasty available...got 1

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Originally Posted by Stupiduglytaru

last night did my wvr book, iq5 popped waste not II had 11 attempts of hasty available...got 1

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You are seriously crafting with Waste Not II ? That's to my opinion the worst skill ever. Probably the only one I never used. The problem with it is it's very not adaptable. It's the most cost efficient only on paper. Master Mend II and Manipulation is the only way !!
(have a look at my rotations guide in my sign if you want, there is a rotation dedicated to these tokens, I did 3/8 master books II with only 8 FCIII lost)

Wisdombeer if cp is available waste not and waste not II are viable its alot of cp efficient than MM
I would only cross skill waste not I, did my gsm books last night in 3 hq in 5 attempts
8 steps for 142 cp? (includes SHII) vs 160 master meld 6 steps vs 92 for 3 steps?
If cp is not the issue but pure quality increases are needed its the way to go
Waste not I still allows you to take 1 good whilsit maintaining its 4 steps
For 3star and 4 star mat making i use waste not in my rotation and HQ these very easily from nq mats
I would rather use my rotations offering 12-14 touches

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

What are you talking about? ToT is a level 15 alchemist ability. Why would you not have this?

Unless you're talking about Comfort Zone (level 50 alc ability)? You *can* do anything without comfort zone, it's just going to be harder to do.

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He probably just wants to eliminate RNG in his crafting rotations.. I know a crafter that's like that.. He did his lucis tokens with a static macro that gave 15-20% hq and just kept running it instead of trying to do a manual rotation because he doesn't feel comfortable with all the RNG. I'm not saying I'd agree with that decision, but it's what some people choose to do.

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Originally Posted by Wisdombeer

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8FC3 lost isn't really such an amazing feat to brag about.. Especially regarding Manual II tokens which is hugely RNG dependent.. I got most of mine without losing a single FC3.. then ran into issues on my WVR book with bad RNG, I think I lost 10 on that one alone.

Anyway, I wouldn't use WN for 40 durability crafts but for 80 durability, WN2 does work wonders.
The basic SH2 -> WN2 -> Hasty x 4 -> SH2 -> Hasty x 5 -> rotation, along with a couple of hasty touches filled in earlier in the beginning with progress rotation can give you more touch actions than a manipulation/master's mend rotation.

Besides, your manual II token recipe only has 11 hasty touches and assumes going for Byregots on IQ 10 or IQ 11.. Of course you can adapt since you can take pretty much all the ToTT that comes your way, but really, looking at your results. It doesn't really seem to be any different than mine and it seems you got some very good RNG during the bait phase, you failed almost no bait attempts except during your CRP tokens.

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Originally Posted by Stupiduglytaru

Wisdombeer if cp is available waste not and waste not II are viable its alot of cp efficient than MM
[...]
8 steps for 142 cp? (includes SHII) vs 160 master meld 6 steps vs 92 for 3 steps?
[...]
I would rather use my rotations offering 12-14 touches

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You are missing something. WNII does only give a 4 step bonus, not 8. If you are 80 durability and you cast WNII then 8 HT's, you are 40 durability. consequently, you could cast 8 HT's for the durability price of 4. This means the cost of an additional step with WNII is 24.5 CP per step. With MMII, it is 26.7 CP per step. Indeed it does make a difference, but at the cost of flexibility.

Can you provide a complete rotation (with final phase, BB, PBP and so on) that is 14 touches for these tokens ? My rotations are not perfect and I would be glad to learn how a WNII rotation can do better. I banged my head too much on WN and WNII in the past.

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Originally Posted by Wisdombeer

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No, actually upon closer inspection and trying out the rotations myself, I realized I also didn't use WN for my manual II tokens.
Where WN does come in handy for me is when I'm doing batch crafts using macros.. Either just a simple 2 step macro with Great Strides condition check built-in or 4-5 step macro with ToTT conditionals and CP branches.

But you're right, for completely manual crafting, barring just plain horrible ToTT procs (1 or less) I think master's mend approach is more reliable.

Once im in tonight will work it out properly, i always manual craft never ever macro. I adjust my rotations constantly depending on cp and rng fun-ness
Theres only certain crafts where you can actually fit in both waste not's as cross skills, i stayed away from wn when first reaching 3star all that time ago but upon doing ltw master books i gave it a shot, since then waste not II is always in my cross skills and with space WNII
I still use masters mend II for the first stage off the top of my head
CZ > IQ > SHII > PBP > PBP > RS > HT > HT (refresh SHII and CZ during this phase if plenty of good pops) may also be 2 RS cant remember
I take to either 20/80 10/80 depending when a SHII will fall off all depends on RNG goods
MMII now depending on cp and cz procs left i either pop SHII > WN (knowing that with no good pops i can still finish the BB phase of GS > Inno > Ingen > BB > CSII x2?
However if cp looks healthy enough to take a WNII rotation i will stick it in
With WN you can take 1 good proc without effecting its use

Sounds a bit confusing i know, but with these books the rotation can change quite a bit and it's pointless sticking to a strict rotation

if all goes to plan roughly 3 ht's from first 80/80 > 20/80 phase
WNII phase 80 > 45/80 (7 x HT) + 2 x HT to take to 25/80, BB phase leaving 15/80 for 2 x CSII finish

12 touches in total im missing some this i know XD

i will be toying around with a rotation tonight involving no MMII

Now in terms of the MMII vs WNII debate
i wrongly put SHII as 22cp we know its 25cp so

WNII 148 cp (includes 2x SHII) 8 Touches available 35/80 (which is still 4 durability turns available)
MMII 190 (includes SHII + 1/5 of the SHII to cover) 6 durability given
WNII 148÷8 touches = 18.5 per touch
MMII 190÷6 touches = 31.66 per touch

MMII dont get me wrong should be used unless another way is found without it, but the choice here really is between what we use after the first MMII phase whether it be a 2nd MM/MMII/Manipulation/WN/WNII

WNII comes out on top by along way

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Originally Posted by Gillionaire

8FC3 lost isn't really such an amazing feat to brag about.. [...] I got most of mine without losing a single FC3.. then ran into issues on my WVR book with bad RNG
[...]and it seems you got some very good RNG during the bait phase[...]

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You know, I saw topics created by players saying to SE they were loosing plenty FCIII (tens of FCIII... even one post with 30+ FCIII for one Master book II). Even if the numbers in these topics were maybe a bit exagerated, these players were really pissed off after tens of rotation. If you are happy with your rotation, keep it and dont change anything.

About baits : with two baits, you have a 58% chance of getting a good. Yes, mathematically, it's a 1 - 0.75 ^ 3 chance, roughly 58% (assuming the chance of Good condition is 25%, a number I read somewhere but cannot find now where). So I dont think my baits were especially lucky. What does count is : you MUST have the CP's to bait.

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Originally Posted by Gillionaire

No, actually upon closer inspection and trying out the rotations myself, I realized I also didn't use WN for my manual II tokens.
Where WN does come in handy for me is when I'm doing batch crafts using macros..

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Then we do the same. I'm also using WN for macros.

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Originally Posted by Stupiduglytaru

Once im in tonight will work it out properly[...]

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I'm interested, please post a complete rotation. I'll try to make a few tests on my spreadsheet to see how WNII does fit after a MMII.

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Originally Posted by Stupiduglytaru

WNII 148 cp (includes 2x SHII) 8 Touches available 35/80 (which is still 4 durability turns available)
MMII 190 (includes SHII + 1/5 of the SHII to cover) 6 durability given
WNII 148÷8 touches = 18.5 per touch
MMII 190÷6 touches = 31.66 per touch

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The 148 CP count for WNII is fine.
The 190 CP count for MMII is false. You forgot to count that WNII does take 40 durability out of your base 80. For MMII, that's zero. If you want to be fair, you must count 10 touches for MMII. You also forgot to consider that MMII has at least 8 chances for TOTT. With 25% chance of TOTT, this means 40 CP gain in means. In the end, it's more 150 / 10 = 15 per touch (according to your calculation).

Edit : BTW sorry, I'm stuck at 1k letters per post... that's pretty anoying.

depend on your BB phase whether a single cs or double cs you can never make full use of those 10 SHII so techinally speaking 7/8 SHII's if RNG is not popping a good but i see your point

I have a few ideas floating about whether its possible to WNII > Mani > WN tho how many goods will be required (during the mani phase is an issue) techinally the most CP efficient way to hit a 10+ touch rotation on paper (well off the top of my head right now driving XD)

MMII is king so far for your first phase we should really be comparing it to MM/2ndMMII/Mani/WN

Not using WNII or MMII or MM or WN or Mani is clearly more efficient.

SHII > HTx5 = 25 CP for 5 touches, 5 CP/touch.

You're really not seeing Wisdombeer's points.

He made that point earlier about how WNII is only good in paper. What you did is simply write it out why this seems good in paper.

ToT's massive CP recovery is the reason why manipulation or MMII is good because an SHII costs just about one ToT. Meaning, for every time you proc ToT, that SH2 you just did was "practically free".

On top of that, ToT will enable more manipulation, giving a lot more durabilities even if they are costlier, just because ToT is giving a lot of CP back.

Here is a screenshot to explain "the power of Tricks of the Trades". You cannot do this with a non-flexible rotation :

http://www.final-fantasy.ch/upload/ff14001.png

If I remember well, this was MMII + MMII + Manip.

Ok, it does not happen very often. But it is not the first time I complete a 100% HQ 3* craft with only HT's. I'm still at IQ11. What you dont see on screen is : I still have 71 CP, enough for GS + BB. I don't remember if the components were all NQ, but as I almost never NQ any 3* recipe, I dont see why I would have used any HQ mats.

i understand fully the effectiveness of goods, im fully aware of mani mmii blah blah. The situations i use WNII your fully not getting, after my first MMII having the cp to pop a WNII (whilst maintaining BB finish cp) is more effecient than any other way unless you literally are getting limitless goods.

Its all situational thats what your clearly not getting aswell, dependent on good procs and rngness being able alter your rotations for this is key with these and 3star+ nq mat only crafts

Anyone who got to 4 star using their own rotations and spent time learning the skills should know that MM, MM2, WN, WN2 and MANIP all have their uses and can be more efficient and CP cost effective depending on the situation.

MM vs MANIP: SH2: 1 stack left, 20D left. HT -> MM over MANIP, otherwise MANIP costs 88 + 5 = 93 cp.

WN2 vs MM2: these should be compared since they serve different purposes. MM2 is used to prolong a synth while WN2 is used as a finisher.

MM2: 9 steps at cost of 210 cp because only 3 steps were considered as cost. 50/80D left.
WN2: 138 for 7 steps at the cost of 3 steps w/ 2 SH2's left. 45/80D left.

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Both have their merits and are good depending on the situation. If you lack the CP for MMII, then a WNII finisher is more than just a viable option.

We understood the supposed efficiency of WN2. The problem isn't so much efficiency, rather that efficiency is only good for when you are not involved in any RNG. The problem with WN2 and efficiency argument is with the HT.

If for every single step on WN2 is a basic touch, then efficiency is the key.

However, given the non-100% nature of HT on SHII, it is usually more favorable for more chances of striking HT, which can only be reached through ToT + Manip combo. In other words, the playing field here is not efficiency.

When high or 100% HQ chance can be reached through the available CP, such as using WN, SH, BT, then yes, efficiency is key. But unless there is a fixed rotation that doesn't involve RNG for those crafts, efficiency is a 2nd priority.

Waste Not is a very viable skill.

Waste Not II is much less so.

Waste Not at least only lasts 4 turns. So your 56 CP get you 2 more turns at a cost of 28 CP per turn.
Manipulation gets you 3 more turns. So your 88 CP gets you those 3 turns at a cost of 29.333 CP per turn. Barely more expensive, and also a bit more flexible.

Waste Not 2 lasts 8 turns. Your 98 CP, in theory, should gain you 4 turns, at a cost of 24.5 CP per turn. Right?

Wrong.

Waste Not 1/2 skills are only fully cost effective if you use Durability every single time while the buff is active. Now, thanks to the fact that 5 Durability are just as good as 10 for finishing the recipe, you can use *ONE* non-Durability move during a Waste Not 1/2 without reducing its cost effectiveness. The second one increases the cost savings by reducing the need for the reduced durability use.

Say what?

WN lasts 4 turns. SH2->WN->HTx4 is a common block, especially in 40 durability recipes, that gets you four shots of an 80% success rate 100% efficiency Touch and lowers Durability by a grand total of 20 points (0 loss->0 loss->5 loss->5 loss->5 loss->5 loss).
If you get a single Good in there and pop Tricks rather than the HT, you get (though the ToT can be anywhere after the WN) SH2->WN->HTx3->ToT at a cost of only 15 Durability. The extra 5 Durability not used are just as good as a full 10 Durability chunk, effectively granting you that fourth HT (or some other durability using move) even though WN has worn off.

WN2 lasts 8 turns. SH2->WN2-> gives you 8 moves before the buff fades. No problem, using SH2 again as the fifth move will save the 5 Durability just like the ToT in the WN just did above. And, as far as that goes, you'd be right.

But, that completely ignores the ToT procs you will want to use. SH2->WN2->HTx4->SH2->ToT->HTx2 eats 30 Durability. That means that you only gained 3 turns from the WN2, not 4. Those 3 turns cost you 32.666 CP each. If you get more than just the one ToT proc, that will reduce the effectiveness even further, and over 8 turns, you can very well get several ToT procs.

At 32.666 CP per turn, WN2 is less effective than MM1 or MM2.

So lets look at the gains, shall we? I've seen, at most, 3 Good conditions in any period of 8 turns. Good->Normal can only repeat itself 3 times from what I've seen, before it goes into at least 2 Normal conditions back to back.
SH2->WN2->ToT->HT->ToT->HT->ToT->SH2->HTx2. That WN2 cost you 98 CP, cost you 20 Durability and only gave you 2 extra turns. You gained 60 CP back, but spent 25 of them on SH2, for a real return of only 35. 98 spent - 35 back = 63 spent. 63 spent on 2 turns is 31.5 CP per turn ... if you want to look at it that way. In actuality, it cost you 49 CP per turn, and gave you 35 CP back, to play with later.

WN2 is only good if your plan is to ignore Good conditions. Otherwise, it is the least effective Durability Games move there is.

I prepared a rotation that is using a WNII finisher. But I am not convinced it is even possible to use it. Here it is :

http://www.final-fantasy.ch/upload/rot32.png

And here is my personal rotation from my guide :

http://www.final-fantasy.ch/upload/rot31.png

Yes, the WNII finisher leads to a 12 HT's rotation instead of 11. That's clearly an advantage. I made a WNII rotation that needs the exact same amount of TOTT, 5. It does require 6 additional base CP, 394 (can be reached, but with good melding). The big drawback is : you need 5 TOTT proc under 13 steps. That's not going to happen. My usual rotation needs 5 TOTT proc under 20+ steps, which is quite common.

And in fact, if you get 5 TOTT procs under 13 steps, there is a HIGH chance they will come under SHII. If so, you need an additional SHII, so in fact 7 TOTT proc under 13 steps. No, clearly, I wont bet on this...

(hope my Excel WNII rotation has no mistakes, did not test it IG)

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxPY...p=docslist_api

Didnt have much time last night to build a full set of rotations however have 2 comparisons of MM II vs. WNII + WNI with 0 good procs on both so far, will transfer this to google sheets tonight and will start comparing with random good conditons added

Both rotations with 0 goods had a 8 ht touches

just working on good conditons during wn phases now

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Originally Posted by Wisdombeer

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The sheer amount of wasted cp makes me sad. :( Don't even know what to say about those rotations.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrZ

The sheer amount of wasted cp makes me sad.

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The sheer amount of arguments in your post makes me sad.

I would be glad to improve my rotations based on your advices. But I cannot do so without a bit more information. Can you provide a better rotation ?

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Originally Posted by Wisdombeer

The sheer amount of arguments in your post makes me sad.

I would be glad to improve my rotations based on your advices. But I cannot do so without a bit more information. Can you provide a better rotation ?

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I gave you a hint, that should be more than enough if you want to improve.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrZ

I gave you a hint, that should be more than enough if you want to improve.

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Ehhh you're probably just trolling.. But either way.
Only CP wasted is the Observed and cutting SH2 short by 1 hasty touch, thus using SH2 before the finisher to incorporate the HT etc. etc.

But if you know how to actually read rotations, that's not a rigid rotation suggested, and SH2 only has 4 hasties below to suggest room for ToTT, if you can get down to 20 CP before SH2 runs out, you could switch to SH instead etc..

Observe... well Observe.. can't fix that with the cross class limitations..

If you know how to read rotations, you'd be able to visualize it into a general boolean guide.

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Originally Posted by Gillionaire

Ehhh you're probably just trolling.. But either way.
Only CP wasted is the Observed and cutting SH2 short by 1 hasty touch, thus using SH2 before the finisher to incorporate the HT etc. etc.

But if you know how to actually read rotations, that's not a rigid rotation suggested, and SH2 only has 4 hasties below to suggest room for ToTT, if you can get down to 20 CP before SH2 runs out, you could switch to SH instead etc..

Observe... well Observe.. can't fix that with the cross class limitations..

If you know how to read rotations, you'd be able to visualize it into a general boolean guide.

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I'll be nice and give you guys one more hint, he has a total of 75 cp wasted in the his standard rotation, regardless of being a boolean guide or not.

Sad that SE is focusing on casual crafters in 3.0 rather than dedicated crafters that invest time and money into getting a good rotation down, rather than looking for hand me outs.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrZ

I'll be nice and give you guys one more hint, he has a total of 75 cp wasted in the his standard rotation, regardless of being a boolean guide or not.

Sad that SE is focusing on casual crafters in 3.0 rather than dedicated crafters that invest time and money into getting a good rotation down, rather than looking for hand me outs.

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Let me guess,

Replace PbP with Rapid Synth, 30CP
2 Observes, 28 CP.
Add another CZ, 14 CP.
Swap SH2 with SH for Byregot's finisher, 3CP.

Total 75CP?

I don't think that rotation's possible as a fresh 3 star crafter though..


But keep going, I like this game.. and who knows what I might learn from it.

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Originally Posted by Gillionaire

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RS cannot replace PBP for all gear situation. The first PBP is 240 points. In comparison, a RS under Ingen II is like 150 to 190 depending of your craftmanship. And I dont see why you would wait Lucis to get Master book II. So it's more likely 160 than 180. The second PBP is questionable, it's around 170 points worth.

2 Observes, 28 CP, please tell me what skill to bait. That's something I'd like to improve.

I often place a third CZ. But hard to make it appear in a rotation as the cast is highly TOTT dependent.

The 3 CP of SH instead of SH2... hmm... you often want to add a HT under the last SH. Which mean you'll want a SH2 for 10 additional percents.

Ho and Zephyr, you should read the main entry of my guide. These rotations are not for accomplished crafters but more a "jump-in". What you propose is mostly situation-dependent, so it's pretty hard to write it correctly in a guide. But I'll consider these.

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Originally Posted by Wisdombeer

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Oh I'm aware, I was just trying to come up with the 75 cp figure which could be considered "superfluous" and yes, that only works for high craftsmanship plus the RS are 80% and not 90% like PbP.

My message was in fact adressed to Zephyr, even if the quote is from your post (you do provide concrete informations while Zephyr apparently loves trolling).

The fact that PBP is 90% let also use it out of a SH2. To be faire, the price of PBP should be reduced by around 1/4 of the SH2 cost. I would count more 10 CP if the second PBP is replaced by a RS.

What I'd like to get from Zephyr is an optimization of my rotation that is working (because the 75 CP is just fancy trolling, you wont get them all at once), that do only require 4 TOTT (-80 CP at the end), and that conserve the 2 baits which are essential to get a Good condition on materials. I'll try to find a solution when I have a bit of time. But I must invest more the replacement of the second PBP by a RS under 400-420 craftmanship. I dont even think it's working or worth it.

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Originally Posted by Gillionaire

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Apparently there is a 3 post per day limit for me :( I very very very nearly bit, i wrote out a whole detailed explanation but i chose not to post it :). I'll drop more hints since we're playing a game ^^


Let's look at what we know.
1) That's a 3 star rotation for an item with 801 difficulty, 8964 quality and 80 durability
2) Before being able to do 3 star, you require Artisan Main hand, FULLY melded AF set, and only +3cp melded onto the militia offhand to hit. 394 craftsmanship, 378control and 398 cp with food.

Now and here is the funny part. I went back to my old 3 star gear and tried the rotation as a "new/fresh" 3 star crafter would and i came up short, couldn't complete the synth. 2x PbP, ING2 + 2x RS and CSII wasn't enough progress to complete the synth.

But objectively looking at the rotation: the 2x pBp and 2x RS is very standard at only the cost of a SHII. The Observes are well, wasted steps and wasted cp since there are "other" methods of baiting out a condition. Anyone attempting this craft has Melded AF gear + artisan MH + at least unmelded Artisan OH. 426 craftsmanship, 395 control, 398 CP. So i don't understand why the rotation assumes a low of 388 cp when cp is easy + cheap to meld and should be prioritized over anything. I didn't even think about the additional CZ but that would add more CP :) Also, i mistyped. It is 73, not 75 and yet think of what you can do with an additional 73 + 14 CP in that rotation. When i see a rotation that almost wastes 100 CP, i just have to shake my head a little, granted i might not have done it in the most polite manner but i do know what i'm talking about and am trying to help ^^

One last thought, but there are other cross last skills that can and should be utilized, so why not use Basic Syntheses under SHI or SHII over CSII, just a thought about working it in, if you do it right you still get 2 bait opportunities for the right condition.

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Originally Posted by Wisdombeer

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Once you're at 3 star stats, there is no "jump-in" crafters, you either know what you're doing or you don't. The above rotation shows me that you don't, i didn't want to say it outright but you got all defensive and hostile, i guess your name suits you. I don't give hand outs, this isn't a game where crafters collaborate, they compete but i don't mind helping out ^^ so you can take the hints i gave you and try and figure it out for yourself or brush me off as a troll; your call.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrZ

Once you're at 3 star stats, there is no "jump-in" crafters

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The OP apparently says the contrary.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrZ

this isn't a game where crafters collaborate, they compete but i don't mind helping out

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Well, then we are of the same kind. I'm trying to help, nothing more. And I do consider your hints seriously.

As you said, you did not answered with a very polite manner. Dont be surprised if you got "defensive and hostile" answers.

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Originally Posted by Wisdombeer

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I've fiddled with your rotation a little bit more.. and I think you can bait twice with 18 CP without using Observe. But you do end up losing 10 durability.
It goes like this.


CZ -> IQ -> SH2 -> PbP -> PbP -> RS -> RS -> then onto the quality work.
You save 32 CP here and a cross class slot from not needing Ingen 2. If you fail, or more than 1 ToTT pops, you could always push the RS over to next SH2 so it's pretty flexible.

Then the finisher.
SH -> GS -> Innov -> CS2 -> Byregots -> CS2.

You do end up using 10 more dura for synthesis step but considering the 32 CP you save from not using Ingen 2 and 14 less CP for 2 baits.. 46 CP has to be more than enough to cover 10 durability loss.

It does look like you need around 420 Craftsmanship.. which would depend on whether you're doing the manual before or AFTER your supra.. I don't like to invest in my off hands before Supra.. But I guess it could work for some people Craftsmanship req can be lowered to about 400 by using 1 standard synthesis for 15 CP under SH as a finisher..


If I'd thought about the rotation I just mentioned before getting all my books, I think I would've certainly used it, but for a guide, it makes things way more complicated.. I have mixed feelings about it.

This is not more complex to show in a guide than the one I did put in it.
What you propose is really close to the 4* rotation I put in the guide for 453+ craftmanship. I'll try this in real situation soon, I still have GSM, ARM and ALC books to do (I was not in a hurry since I almost dont craft any 4* to sell but needed artisan and foragers).

I do have GSM artisan tool but do not have ALC artisan tool. So I'll be able to test with around 440 craftmanship and < 420. Need to find what is the minimum value.