The Wyrmking vs. Thordan

I finally got around to unlocking Dragoon, and just completed the level 35 quest, where Ser Alberic told me the story about Ishgard's founding and the skirmish with Nidhogg. (i.e. the plot point for Heavenward mentioned at Las Vegas fan festival)

One thing I can't help but notice in the tale is that Thordan seemed to start it by attacking the wyrmking unprovoked. Obviously Ishgard is going to be extremely biased, but the tale as told doesn't exactly indicate Nidhogg approached with hostile intent.

Though given Ishgard's shady nature and who they may or may not be harboring within their walls, I do wonder if the missing Eye and ensuing blood feud is not the only "sins" the rising chorus is preaching about.

My take on the story was that Nidhogg came swooping down and Thordan leaped up to intercept.

I think its almost without question there is more to the tale. However I doubt its going to be clear cut on either side. While the Ishgardian founder may have been guilty of wrongs, Nidhogg and the Dravanians have not discriminate in their war, slaughtering the weak as ruthlessly as they have the strong. From my experience of FF14, I expect we will find issue with both sides. Its also possible both sides are getting played by Ascians.

Also there is the comment in 2.5 that there are two Wyrmlords in Eorzea. That could suggest that the Dravanian leadership could have it's own factions. That could create an interesting politic dynamic among the Dravanians.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

My take on the story was that Nidhogg came swooping down and Thordan leaped up to intercept.

I think its almost without question there is more to the tale. However I doubt its going to be clear cut on either side. While the Ishgardian founder may have been guilty of wrongs, Nidhogg and the Dravanians have not discriminate in their war, slaughtering the weak as ruthlessly as they have the strong. From my experience of FF14, I expect we will find issue with both sides. Its also possible both sides are getting played by Ascians.

Also there is the comment in 2.5 that there are two Wyrmlords in Eorzea. That could suggest that the Dravanian leadership could have it's own factions. That could create an interesting politic dynamic among the Dravanians.

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Those two Lords, mayhaps, being Nidhogg and the King of Kings, Midgardsormr.

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Originally Posted by PotatoSalad

Those two Lords, mayhaps, being Nidhogg and the King of Kings, Midgardsormr.

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It's Midgarsormr himself that states two of his sons are presently in Eorzea.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

It's Midgarsormr himself that states two of his sons are presently in Eorzea.

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o3o

Oh, right-o! I forgot 'bout that detail! :D

Well, isn't Midgy one of the first dragons born in Eorzea? If so, maybe he's referring to one as Bahamut?

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Originally Posted by PotatoSalad

o3o

Oh, right-o! I forgot 'bout that detail! :D

Well, isn't Midgy one of the first dragons born in Eorzea? If so, maybe he's referring to one as Bahamut?

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Aye. In fact, Midgarsormr is supposedly the first dragon and sired seven sons.

Bahamut might make sense if you haven't finished coil, but is that the real Bahamut or a aethereal manifestation of him? Actually, considering that the coil storyline ended before patch 2.5a, even his primal form is dead. Besides, even if Bahamut had never been entrapped by the Allagan in the 3rd astral era, he'd still be in Meracydia with his people dragon horde, which is not in the realm of Eorzea.

So, while Bahamut was probably one of Midgardsormr's children, he's not one of the sons he references being in Eorzea.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Though given Ishgard's shady nature and who they may or may not be harboring within their walls, I do wonder if the missing Eye and ensuing blood feud is not the only "sins" the rising chorus is preaching about.

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I have a feeling the Ascians have had a finger in Ishgard since at least that first battle.

Reposting from another thread;

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Could it be that someone empowered by Halone came to Thordan, converted him and his men from their previous religion, and guided them to the Holy See? Maybe once conflict between the Ishgardians and Dravanians began, this 'Saint' "betrayed" the people she had led by consorting with their new-found enemy.

What if the Dravanians aren't as bad as they're made out to be...?

What if Ishgard fell under Ascian influence not long after it was founded, and their Saint remained pure thanks to a certain divine gift, defecting to the side of lesser evil to put an end to a senseless war?

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Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

I have a feeling the Ascians have had a finger in Ishgard since at least that first battle.

Reposting from another thread;


Thoughts?

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I just finished the Dragoon Job story and that ending gives me the feeling that whatever happened in the past, Nidhogg is rather fallen these days. It's not clear but I suspect that whatever started this who conflict wasn't nearly as clear cut (trying to avoid spoilers) and involved failings on both sides. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest to learn that the Ascians have been playing both sides. Possibly to keep both sides from every allying since that would be detrimental to their plans.

Whoever the other Dragon Lord is, I have a feeling they are more likely to be moderate. What we have seen of Nidhogg is he is positively burning with hatred. Every time he wakens he rampages slaughtering pretty indiscriminately. Heavenward seems likely to be mainly about us trying to end the ancient conflict and bridge the divide between the Dragons and Ishgardians. That's why I don't think we will be taking a specific side but rather wrestling with both sides to finally end the conflict.

Dravanians actually being the "good" guys is too easy, and ultimately contrary to the "dark fantasy" they're aiming for. The writers are still trying to find a consistent tone, though, so I suspect we'll see story arcs backing both sides before getting to the truth both of them are hiding. The dragons (at least some of them) have proven themselves to be sapient beings, but continue maintaining their "senseless monster" facade to further their current war of attrition. They're not to blame, but also not blameless.

The Ascians are definitely manipulating the whole thing to their usual cryptic ends, but I'd like to think they (as in, the writers) know enough world history to know that war is rarely, if ever, born from purely evil intentions, and that reconciling "differences" is a much more complex process than simply holding peace talks and telling the naughty children to behave.

Honor, faith, and patriotism are the pretty dress worn by a really ugly, misshapen, Queen Brahne-shaped blob of real-world considerations. Trade routes and natural resources are two of the largest causes of war, especially "holy wars," but the fine line between greed and necessity is the first to blur when a cause needs justification. And the rest is just escalation.

I think they have seeded that. The Leader of the Temple Knights makes comment that he likes to believe the Fury values the lives of her followers over the deaths of her enemies. I think the big clincher in this who thing will be truth. Unmasking the reasons for the war in the first place. We have seen potential moderates in the Ishgardians and I imagine there will be ones among the Dragons.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

That's why I don't think we will be taking a specific side but rather wrestling with both sides to finally end the conflict.

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Someone's already tried this and they ended up playing host to a primal entity. We'll have to do a much better job than said person if we plan to avoid what the Ascians seem to want us for. We'll probably end up playing right into their hands as usual though.


On another note, I feel as though the Ascians gained control over the theocracy 15-17 years ago, when Ishgard withdrew from the Eorzean Alliance - having Ishgard instead focus on continuing the endless conflict, rather than helping the realm as a whole, and hopefully bringing rise to two more primals.

Iceheart frankly didn't seem to have been particularly neutral. We really don't know her relations to the Dragons. Her solution to the war seems to have been to tip the balance in the favour of the Dravanians. While this would deal with the corruption within Ishgard it would probably involve the devastation of Ishgard and the slaughter of its people. Considering that little prophecy thing we got awhile back from Yoshi-P I think we need an intact Ishgard purged of the Ascians influence.

"To naught but the Ivory Spear shall ebon mail yield, Yet Her point remains ever trained upon scales of black. Peer deep into the dust which swirls in our wakes, And know the bloody dance of the light and dark to be everlasting."

From that last line, also suspect the Ascians have had their hand in Ishgard's affairs for centuries, perhaps since the beginning. We may yet discover the same is true for the Dravanians too.

The way I interpret that quote; Ishgard's victory(?) against the Dravanian Horde. "dust which swirls in our wake" is alluding to the dragon(s) taking flight, signaling resolution, and when said dust settles, we'll know what caused this tireless conflict. The war between Hydaelyn and Zodiark has, and will continue to, claim many casualties.

Neither side is good nor bad, both just pawns being manipulated by the Ascians against Hydaelyn.

It's anyone guess as to when the corruption began, I just find Ishgard's withdrawal suspicious...

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Aye. In fact, Midgarsormr is supposedly the first dragon and sired seven sons.

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And we will meat all seven of them. Yoshie-P mentioned in the PAX presentation that the story will deal with the seven evil wyrmkings

"Evil" was the interpreter's goof, though. Yoshi-P said nothing about them being evil.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

And we will meat all seven of them. Yoshie-P mentioned in the PAX presentation that the story will deal with the seven evil wyrmkings

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Guess that puts the idea that Bahamut was Midgardsormrs son to rest... Unless we're going to deal with him again through some means, but I'm doubting that somewhat.

I'm sticking to my theory;

• The Twelve were Allag Warrior of Light who survived Xandes Calamity and helped people to the point they were transformed into Gods/Eikons by history.
• Midgardsormr came after/around the same time as Xandes Calamity (perhaps as a survivor of Meracydia). An agreement was met between him and the Warriors of Light (who represent Hydaelyn, hence that connection) for him to protect Allag relics and prevent their misuse. Specifically Crystal Tower.
• He fathered seven sons, Nidhogg being one who was charged with protecting the Allag Sky Fortress. Nidhogg now calls for help as Ishgard proceeds with their plans, resulting in the Rising Chorus.
• Ishgards first sin was taking the location which acts as a path to this fortress, which Nidhogg was originally controlling/guarding. The second mistake they are about to make, is going there and activating it. They want to for religious/war reasons (either to reach their promised land (similar to the Covenant in Halo?), or to wipe out the dragons, or both). Ascians are helping them because activating it will cause enough Chaos to bring about a Rejoining or whatever. Dragons want to stop Ishgard because common sense.
• Midgardsormr guarded the Lake, which was actually Crystal Towers resting place. Garleans work on Bozja Citadel pre-1.0 in an attempt to recreate Crystal Tower and bring down Dalamud, then they move for Mor Dhona when that fails. Thus Midgardsormr acts resulting in the Battle for Silvertear Skies. He ultimately failed, which is why he can now absolve that contract since there is no real reason for him to guard the area anymore; Instead he will guard us, the new Warriors of Light.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

<theory>

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I'm still trying to figure out if the game is implying that Midgardsormr has been around since at least the start of the cycle of the eras. I mean, for one, his name means World Serpent. But then you have little things here and there such as this from the German:

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Originally Posted by Midgardsormr

Am Anbeginn gewährte Hydaelyn mir Schutz und Licht. Mir steht nicht zu, mich über ihre Wahl zu stellen.
At the beginning, Hydaelyn granted me protection and light. I have no place to put myself before Her choice.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm still trying to figure out if the game is implying that Midgardsormr has been around since at least the start of the cycle of the eras. I mean, for one, his name means World Serpent. But then you have little things here and there such as this from the German:

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For me, I just can't get my head around what he was doing during the Allagans reign if he predates them. I'm given to disregard his name, given Jourmangand (and Thor) show up in World of Darkness with no importance, and the German could be interpreted in various ways (at the beginning of time, at the beginning of current events, etc.).

Bozja Citadel and Project Meteor all tying back to Crystal Tower as reasoning for Midgardsormr taking out the Agrius just really works for me. Mor Dhona being created by the Twelve as the center of the world and source of all aether (power)? For the Allag Crystal Tower was the center of their Empire and source of its power. Were he guarding the place during their reign... Either he is incompetent and just didn't care about the Voidgate-opening-Tower being built (or his heirs war?) or we're missing some epic battle that went on, but I have no context for that.

Then there are the Allagan Runestones... Basic stone carvings either fit the Allags early years, or follow the Calamity. The fact that Dalamud features on one of the Runestones tells me they came after. Either the surviving Allag created the Twelve or turned back to religion following their fall, which is certainly possible I'll admit. The quote on the Triple Triad card for Urianger also puts me in the mind that The Twelve were just the old Warriors of Light; "Truth interpreted is truth transformed. Today's heroes may yet become tomorrow's gods...or something else.", also perhaps explaining Primal origins (the "something else"). Previous Warriors of Light, heroes of the past, make a pact with Midgardsormr as Hydaelyns representatives, history interprets events over and over until they become gods.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

"Evil" was the interpreter's goof, though. Yoshi-P said nothing about them being evil.

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Them not being evil makes more sense. Midy doesnt act like an antagonist. By the by this interpreter girl made a lot of blunders. It was especially noticable as an interpreter. It shows that YOshi-P usually goes with Koji. They work well together. Still she was very cute.

Some weird tidbits i got that dragons aren't evil just outright pissed off is that when you defeat shiva she says "Dear please forgive them" meaning she tried and failed to stop the war.

Ascians being in control of every thing is clear in the final cutscene of the 2.4? there is the scene when they put the holy pope and behind his throne is an ascian smiling.

This expansion will bring to light that neither side is good or bad and war is messy.

It also struck me that we might just end up siding with neither and forcing a truce to team up and foil the Empire's designs on the Allagan's Floating Continent! Wouldn't that be Disney...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

It also struck me that we might just end up siding with neither and forcing a truce to team up and foil the Empire's designs on the Allagan's Floating Continent! Wouldn't that be Disney...

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Possible, but mostly likely an Ascian plan will have to be foiled. At least by proxy. Gaius was "helped" by Lahabrea and I am sure he had his dirty hands in project meteor as well.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Possible, but mostly likely an Ascian plan will have to be foiled. At least by proxy. Gaius was "helped" by Lahabrea and I am sure he had his dirty hands in project meteor as well.

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Undoubtedly so. The mothercrystal was hit pretty hard by bahamut's two minutes of fame, maybe Dalamud was an idea initially brought to the allag by Ascians? it would make sense in the scheme of things, there really hasn't been anything found to be redeemable at all about them (besides the we were here first pity card).

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

maybe Dalamud was an idea initially brought to the allag by Ascians?

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This is a safe bet, I'd say. I mean, in my mind, the best way to drain aether from Hydaelyn would be to imprison and sustain as many of these aetherial entities as possible (which the Allagan did/attempted). This would not only consume mass amounts of aether, but keep it from returning to the stream. It's possible the Paragons even did this indirectly by introducing them to a few certain statues, showing them "Gods" could be used as a source of great power.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Aye. In fact, Midgarsormr is supposedly the first dragon and sired seven sons.

Bahamut might make sense if you haven't finished coil, but is that the real Bahamut or a aethereal manifestation of him? Actually, considering that the coil storyline ended before patch 2.5a, even his primal form is dead. Besides, even if Bahamut had never been entrapped by the Allagan in the 3rd astral era, he'd still be in Meracydia with his people dragon horde, which is not in the realm of Eorzea.

So, while Bahamut was probably one of Midgardsormr's children, he's not one of the sons he references being in Eorzea.

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I was under the impression that somehow, Bahamut being referred to as a Dreadwyrm made him different from a "Dragon", but i know dragons go through metamorphosis as they age. Are he and Midgardsormr even the same type of being?

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Originally Posted by Edellis

I was under the impression that somehow, Bahamut being referred to as a Dreadwyrm made him different from a "Dragon", but i know dragons go through metamorphosis as they age. Are he and Midgardsormr even the same type of being?

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Dreadwyrm simply means that he's a Wyrm (Great Dragon) that is greatly feared. He and Midgardsormr were both Scalekin (dragons), but the Bahamut we see is actually the primal version. The true Bahamut is believed to have died centuries past. How this primal form differs from his living form isn't exactly known.

However, I've heard that in the expansion we'll fight all seven sons of Midgardsormr and, well, we can't really fight a non-existent Bahamut, can we? So, perhaps he wasn't a son of Midgardsormr, but he's still said to be "of the first brood" I believe and was definitely the father of the Meracydian Horde.

The interview at PAX East mentioned we'd fight seven wyrm kings in Heavensward, but it wasn't stated that they also were Migardsormr's sons. The seven and seven might link up to show that's the case, but we haven't had any confirmation of that yet.

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Originally Posted by Reinhart

The interview at PAX East mentioned we'd fight seven wyrm kings in Heavensward, but it wasn't stated that they also were Migardsormr's sons. The seven and seven might link up to show that's the case, but we haven't had any confirmation of that yet.

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Ah, Thanks for clearin' that up!

It could very well be that you fight a bahamut in Heavensward.

Power is apparently proportional to how much aether/many crystals you use. And you can summon the same primal over and over. Maybe someone summons him with a teacup full?

"Oh gods, they summoned Bahamut?!" "Yeah...he's about a yalm tall"

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

"Oh gods, they summoned Bahamut?!" "Yeah...he's about a yalm tall"

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http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...pseimwc2xz.png

/10characters

Only problem I see with that is you can't Summon two of the same Primal at once (egi are something else). So, what happens to the people who haven't beaten t13 in this scenario?

Yoshida talks about Heavensward as if it's a second season. By that logic, T13 could be treated like an episode from season 1 that some players just missed when it aired?

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Yoshida talks about Heavensward as if it's a second season. By that logic, T13 could be treated like an episode from season 1 that some players just missed when it aired?

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Unless they completely lock coil, or change the way the lore works with it (instead of exploring it yourselves, you explore it using the echo on the twins or one of the WoL who cleared it), due to the time bubble in the story you could do the coil storyline at any time during the msq. It's like trying to put Hildibrand into the msq.

Uh oh, we're back on this issue again. Run and hide, Moose!

The best way to look at it is by patch, IMO. If Coil ended in patch 2.5 then those events precede everything 3.0 and on. Don't strain yourselves trying to make real-world sense of it.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

The best way to look at it is by patch, IMO. If Coil ended in patch 2.5 then those events precede everything 3.0 and on. Don't strain yourselves trying to make real-world sense of it.

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That was what I was trying to say. Thanks, treuhavik!

So far, SE hasn't really been big on the "pretend it happened before now" thing, carefully wording even the Ishgardian quests to make sense regardless of whether they're rude to you because Ishgard's closed, or rude to you because "Just because we're open now doesn't mean we like adventurers! Get off my snow!"

It's entirely possible that the two scenarios will remain mostly discrete; it might not matter if you wrap up Alexander and do most of 4.0 content before you decide, "Sure, whatever, let's grab Alisaie and go see what the truth of the Calamity was." If they do decide to bring any of that back, including Bahamut, they just need to make the clearing of the Coils a prerequisite.

Take, for instance, Kam'lanaut and Eald'narche of Final Fantasy XI. In order to start Rise of the Zilart, you had to be past the "main scenario" mission where you meet the leader of Jeuno, since he was about to be revealed as the FFXI version of an Allagan and stabbed in the face. He would make a comeback at the end of Chains of Promathia, so in order to finish Chains of Promathia, you also had to have finished Rise of the Zilart.

Discrete isolation v. progression flags are SE's usual M.O. for the bubble expanding for time passage without bursting due to time movement.

One or the other will likely end up happening for the Coils, imho. (That or time travel, again, Wings of the Goddess.)

Expect Anonymoose to have an answer besides the "oh, well they just can't" that everyone else seems to love throwing around. As someone who will probably never play XI, I found that quite informative. Honestly, the entire thing is a topic that never really occurred to me until I found out just how far they'd go to preserve the current status-quo.

Still can't say I'm a huge fan of the long-term implications popping up between "awesome and important characters tied down by optional end-game quests" (I can think of seven just off the top of my head) and Yoshida's (assumed) stance on "not requiring old raids for new content," but 2.5 isn't over yet, and we still know nothing about 3.0's quest progression.

I seem to recall something about them working on a way for players to experience the story from the Binding Coil, so that may become a requirement instead of clearing the OHKO-tastic T5-9-13. Or it was just a stealth hint at work on story-mode Alexander.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

(That or time travel, again, Wings of the Goddess.)

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Forget time travel, we have the echo!

All they need to do is put a flag at one of the new quests - if you havent completed the coils, you get an echo-rundown of what happened there. That takes care of your story mode and the whole time-bending thing. That way, the newer player would be on the same page as us when going back to kill Bahamut Prime for the umpteenth time.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Forget time travel, we have the echo!

All they need to do is put a flag at one of the new quests - if you havent completed the coils, you get an echo-rundown of what happened there. That takes care of your story mode and the whole time-bending thing. That way, the newer player would be on the same page as us when going back to kill Bahamut Prime for the umpteenth time.

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Yes, dammit. It's about time we used the echo for more than a tempering shield and a universal translator. You know like becomming freaking immortal. Or time compression maybe. Or anything.

So apparently there is a Famitsu interview from Pax East that confirms Bahamut as one of the seven children of Midgardsomr.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ast_interview/

That's the reddit page its summarised on. I'm guessing that means when they spoke of the Wyrm Lords at Pax East it didn't necessarily mean we would actually be meeting all seven, just learning about them.

On a side note, this got me thinking that perhaps the issues that started the Dragonsong war may have their roots all the way back to the time of the Allag. Certainly that would have probably created a lot of dragons with a good deal of hatred towards humans and such.