Okay, so... my group is currently in T11, and one of our tanks had been going WAR for T10 and T11 for weeks, while the other has been going PLD. Last raid night, he decided to go PLD instead. His reasoning is that WAR have horrible survivability later on in turns 12 and 13. He also commented that he just wants the easy/lazy job, which to me sounds like the only real reason.
Now, when the group formed, he joined as PLD, so I don't feel right trying to make him go WAR. However, I'm kind of annoyed about three things:
1. The loss of Storm's Path. I realize there are a lot of mixed thoughts on this ability, but the way I see it, it's essentially a free Sacred Soil that can add up with other mitigation abilities for big hits. In one of our last runs, Nerve Cloud somehow killed two people, and I assume an extra 10% protection would've most likely prevented that.
2. Storm's Eye. We have a NIN in the party. Keeping Eye up for NIN is actually a substantial dps increase that not only helps the relatively tight dps checks for FCoB, but just simply makes runs faster with fewer chances of things going wrong.
3. His WAR dps can be up to the low 200s... his PLD dps averaged 130 in our last T11 raid night. Dps is not his job, and I understand that, but it's just another noticeable loss, and what looks to me like no benefit.
So... opinions? It looks to me like there's too much utility going out the window for what to me looks like zero benefit. But that's why I'm here, to see if WAR really are terrible in the last two turns and aren't all that reliable.
Thanks in advance for any replies :)
WAR viability in T12 and T13?
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12-06-2014, 11:38 AMThanatosPrimordialisWAR viability in T12 and T13?
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12-06-2014, 11:41 AMmelflomil
tell him to go back to WAR or replace, simple. lol you basically nailed it with all your points
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12-06-2014, 12:47 PMTrivariumOri
Personally I feel like all the content can be completed with most compositions but to answer the 3 statements.
1. Having Storm's Path is better than not having it.
2. Storm's Eye is indeed a big increase to not only ninja dps but the paladin too.
3. Both of those parses are unacceptable at that level and with no doubt the HA wep?
Though I am only on 10-12 and can't speak for 13, warrior survivability doesn't seem to be an issue if the warrior playing knows they're class. My only concern is that they want to run paladin because its the lazy option, I wouldn't want that kind of person in my group. -
12-06-2014, 10:37 PMBrannigan
The last two turns are built for warrior tanks. The tank killer moves all come out in 50s~1 minute intervals, meaning a warrior can blow something nice pretty much every time he has to tank them. However, warrior performance on turn 3 and 4 shouldn't matter to this guy or your group, because you need to get past turn 2. Even if the fight is doable for your party without Storm's Path, the cushion it provides is enough to justify taking a warrior. Storm's Eye for the ninja is just icing on the cake.
TrivariumOri basically summed up my thoughts: it's concerning that you said he wants to play paladin because it's lazier/easier and then he only pulls 130 dps. Even for full time Shield Oath that seems very low, especially if the ninja was keeping up the slashing debuff. -
12-06-2014, 11:14 PMSirTaint
130 in T11 is just terrible. I do 175 but I don't even spam my GCDs in the last phase.
(I call out all the moves and let our WAR maintain hate which makes Heads way easier to deal with since I'm always the one that provoke and then he takes it right back)
WAR is extremely good in T12, unchained while MTing, IB+another CD for revelation and great snap agro for the bennu.
You need a new tank unfortunately, he obviously isn't dedicated or knowledgeable. -
12-07-2014, 01:15 AMSleigh
Your WAR wants to go from WAR + PLD to PLD + PLD? That's such a terrible idea, even with a potential NIN putting up SE. WAR has a lot of benefits over PLD overall; more TP efficient, more damaging ST and AoE, more aggro, and constant 20% mitigation available roughly every 15s. PLD's main reasons for existing are the RoH STR debuff, which with my testing is just about 10% actual mitigation from AAs/cleaves/most mega-attacks, and a lengthy set of strong CDs which work in tandem with another tank's in FCoB.
As much as I agree with you in theory, no group I've seen, including my own, uses WAR MT in T13. Probably because you really want SP + SE uptime maxed out, which is much harder as MT with a Sword Oath PLD on your ass, and also because shield blocking is really strong P1/P2. I'd very much like to see WAR do particularly well and PLD go Sword Oath but as of now no one does it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
Maybe WAR should hold the boss in final phase since outgoing damage tones down. I'd like to try it but it'd be harder to gear for, since most people use an i90 + STR accessory right-side for WAR in the OT role, which is risky to throw in the MT role in T13 even in a phase where it's just mostly AAs combined with mechanics and one breath cleave a minute. -
12-07-2014, 01:43 AMGildartsEncore did the fight with WAR MT, 115 weapons and killed before enrageQuote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
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12-07-2014, 01:55 AMThanatosPrimordialis
Thanks for the responses everyone. Yeah, I kinda figured I was right about a WAR being better for the group. Again, my only concern is that he DID join the group as PLD, and I don't feel very good about essentially demanding someone to switch to a job that they didn't originally intend to play. But again, it IS better for the group as a whole, and the biggest thing for me at the moment is having such an uncooperative person in the group.
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12-07-2014, 02:58 AMCGMidlanderIt's not about him. It's about the group.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThanatosPrimordialis
If he just wants to be lazy, then his attitude is not beneficial for the group and his spot in the group should probably be questioned. -
12-09-2014, 05:25 AMDhexJust going to echo this. I run on PLD and I push 175-180 with a full VIT build in Tank stance the entire fight and I have to clip my combos to prevent running out of TP. Maybe he's missing? Accuracy problems?Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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12-09-2014, 05:33 AMEllatrixDoing T13 with anything but PLD MT WAR OT is just a poor decision. WAR gets hit so much harder and provides significant utility in OT role that is impossible to do from MT role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gildarts
Doing FCoB with anything other than PLD+WAR is also a poor decision. -
12-09-2014, 07:15 AMSwordCoheirIf the DPS difference is that significant then something is amiss with his gear or his rotations need work. In either case he should at least be sporting an i110 weapon on either job and since PLD and WAR share the same gear his highest level weapon should be the determining factor of which job he comes as unless PLD or WAR is specifically needed for a mechanic in that fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhex
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12-09-2014, 10:53 AMInstrumentalityYou might say warrior gets hit 20% harder than Paladin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
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12-09-2014, 11:44 AMEllatrixWAR gets hit significantly harder than just 20%. Look into this fancy thing called a Shield. Oh, and T13 spikes for P1/2 are tuned perfectly around PLD mitigation timers; WAR is going to be deficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Instrumentality
And while an argument could be made that WAR MT is better in P4, the major drawback is that it is no longer safe to wear full Ruby, which is going to cut down WAR damage output considerably for the rest of the fight. -
12-09-2014, 12:18 PMInstrumentalityYou mean like the dreadwyrm shield I have on my paladin? I wouldn't know anything about that. Warrior main tanks are also a notable dps increase over paladin main tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
And there is no way on earth a warrior doesn't have inner beast for every single damage spike on turn 13 so I have no idea why paladins also being able to cooldown the exact same moves is somehow exceedingly better.
By the way, I am a paladin and I main tank turn 13. I just think it's hilarious that anyone would ever act like warriors aren't 100% viable and in some situations better to main tank on turn 13 with. -
12-09-2014, 12:33 PMEllatrix
There are numerous reasons why WAR OT is superior for T13, and only some of them have to do with tank damage (and PLD still mitigates far better). There's also keeping up Eye/Path fulltime as OT, which is impossible to do while MT while not losing aggro to PLD, and keeping Path up is important.
So let's recap:
- PLD takes significantly less damage than WAR
- WAR cannot maintain debuffs and hold aggro off PLD while MT
This is pretty clear cut. -
12-09-2014, 01:21 PMInstrumentalityExcept none of what you said is true other than in completely RNG situations where shield blocks happen absurdly frequently? A warrior with proper use of UBIR versus a paladin completely maxing out damage output (aka not skipping fracture) won't rip hate in the first phase, which is the ONLY phase where it might even be remotely possible to steal threat in full strength gear versus a melded gear warrior. If the paladin is thirty points in strength might make it possible to make a comeback in the second phase if they skip fracture to increase their threat generation or stay in shield oath because they hate doing good DPS or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
Not to mention that Path is by no means essential to surviving any mechanic in turn 13. So no you do not "have" to keep it up. Just like you don't "have" to main tank as a paladin, because warriors are 100% viable and in some cases preferred. -
12-09-2014, 01:29 PMHaxetc
Ellatrix. Was just curious. How many i130 weapons did you guys have on your clear?
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12-09-2014, 01:35 PMEllatrix
3, and we had plenty of time before enrage (it just started doing Megaflare after 5th Akh Morn).
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12-09-2014, 02:05 PMHaxetc
I find it hard to see your points as legitimate reasons seeing as how our WAR MT is doing 36 more dps than your PLD and our SCH is doing 34 more dps than yours. The fact that our SCH was able to DPS as much as he did should show that a WAR MT can mitigate damage just fine and do more damage in the MT role. I don't really understand your logic in getting so triggered over WAR MT :/
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12-09-2014, 02:09 PMEllatrix
Because it's inferior. Our SCH chose to not dps as much to make the fight safer as our dps was sufficient. Your FC killed it shortly after we did anyway and the only reason you didn't have i130 weapons is because you chose to have DPS spend poetics on gear upgrades cause you were trying to kill it a week earlier.
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12-09-2014, 02:11 PMHaxetcSo our SCH felt safer with a WAR tank than your SCH did with a PLD tank? Your DPS was barely enough to make it through this fight and that's with 3 i130 weapons. I don't understand your logic unless there isn't any behind your posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
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12-09-2014, 02:19 PMEllatrix
Our kill was 13:53. Yours was about 13:58. So I suppose your DPS was also "barely" enough to make it through.
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12-09-2014, 02:27 PMThanatosPrimordialis
Seems I was pretty much right about my assumption that WAR is a great job to have for FCoB, especially better than double PLD. I did have him go WAR last night. However, he was severely under performing. There were attempts where I would get to my fourth Dancing Edge before I saw a Storm's Eye. I didn't see Eye kept up consistently throughout any encounter, which led to either having to put DE, or be unbuffed for an unknown period of time. There were times where I didn't see Eye OR path up. And the best part... one our second time instanced in T11, which was made up of 7 attempts (didn't check for the first instance), his DPS averaged 158.
I've SEEN him keep Eye up throughout fights, and I've seen him do 200+ as WAR in fights. I strongly believe he was under performing on purpose as an immature way to speak against having to go WAR. Or maybe he believes I'll just have him go PLD for doing poorly as WAR. Either way, instead of accusing him of deliberately doing that (though I strongly believe is what's going on), I'll just tell him what I saw, that if it was on purpose it has to stop immediately, and if it wasn't on purpose, I'll direct him to a good tanking video guide or something, like Xeno's. *sigh* I feel like I'm dealing with a child -_- -
12-09-2014, 02:29 PMHaxetc
We didn't kill it after your group and we probably spent less time on than your group did. That isn't the point tho. The point is our SCH was able to DPS more than your SCH and our WAR didn't have any problem in the MT role. The point of this thread was the OP asking about WAR survivability so why are you getting so triggered? WAR MT = more DPS while losing nothing. Pls
Your group had 12 more weapon damage lol. Are you seriously not taking into consideration the DPS increase from that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
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12-09-2014, 02:36 PMEllatrix
We killed it on Friday night, you killed it on Saturday afternoon. You did clear T12 before us so... you had more time on T13. Your DPS also had i130 body pieces so they had that upgrade in addition to not having to use as much i90 crafted for the VIT, so sure weapon is important but it isn't the only thing to keep in consideration.
PLD is still flat out better than WAR in the MT role for T13. If you choose to do WAR, yes it can work, but that doesn't make it the better choice or even make it a neutral choice. -
12-09-2014, 02:48 PMHaxetc
I looked at the time and date posted and figure you killed it on the 15th. If you did kill it on the 14th than it would have been a few hours before us. This isn't even the point lol. If you want to get into who was better off for the fight DPS wise it was definitely your group other than the PLD MT. There is no way that us buying soldiery gear puts us close to what you guys had. If you were still wearing VIT accessories after getting the i130 weapons it wouldn't make sense. I don't rly understand how you think you know what gear we bought lol. Also, we didn't really put much time into 13. If you're going off our T12 kill date than you're doing it wrong since we didn't spend any time in there on the first week and I took a few days off in the second week :/ Still, nothing is showing how PLD MT is better than WAR MT. Pls halp.
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12-09-2014, 02:49 PMHaxetcYou have yet to post anything of relevance showing that :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
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12-09-2014, 03:26 PMlulunami
In response to the OP, WAR is very viable in T12 and T13 and all of FCoB.
WAR can have Inner Beast for every tank killer move and can be paired with Vengeance/ToB/etc. so very good mitigation. Storm's Path is good to have up for those really damaging moves should you need it. Storm's Eye is a dps boost to PLD and NIN. WAR has great snap aggro so good for quickly picking up adds too.
Not to mention, WAR can provide a good amount of dps as MT or OT. If your WAR chooses to use STR melded acessories, it will increase group's total dps as well.
Basically, a properly played WAR will add more of a benefit to your group than another PLD in my opinion, so I disagree with your PLD's assertion that WAR is not viable/survivable in T12 and T13. -
12-09-2014, 06:13 PMEllatrixYou mean except for every other point I've already made?Quote:
Originally Posted by Haxetc
Sure, if you want to take more tank damage and higher raid damage, go WAR MT. The combined damage of PLD WAR and SCH is going to be about the same anyway. -
12-10-2014, 01:59 AMJinkazuya
We didn't save up to buy i130 weapons for the simple reason as it was beaten on first week by groups that had alot of time to spend and we can probably do as well if we had as much time. So we went ahead and bought best in slot items rather than those quickly obselete i130 weapons.
Also spending 3-4hours for 4-5nights on second week is not really trying to clear it quicker. -
12-10-2014, 02:17 AMHaxetcHow would you be taking more raid damage? LolQuote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
Also, how are you really taking more tank damage. You have more HP in defiance, the 20% mitigation is equivalent to the 20% enhanced healing potency received from defiance and you get IB for every big attack. But pls, do continue to be triggered about WAR MT :) -
12-10-2014, 04:58 AMEllatrixIf you somehow think WAR takes less damage than PLD, there is little hope for you. You now make another person that seems to have been carried through T13 by their group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haxetc
Hint: Defiance is +25%HP but only +20% increased healing, for a start. Also something something shield. You should try reading my previous posts in the thread, you might learn something. -
12-10-2014, 05:29 AMSpookyGhost
There's a 4% healing difference between PLD and WAR, which is meant to be made up by WAR's own self healing. PLD and WAR are essentially equal in that sense. The whole "having a shield" thing is important to consider, though. While RNG mitigation and therefore unreliable on big hits, they have a higher chance to proc a block or a parry than a WAR has to proc just parry.
I'd say sacrificing consistency for slightly more raid DPS isn't worth it. I don't think PLD is the end all be all for T13, WAR is perfectly capable of tanking it, but I think there are some underlying issues with WAR MT. You'd need to use SE->SP constantly as MT or OT due to how many mechanics are consistently dealing damage to the raid from Bahamut. This can cause a lot of problems with PLD OT, especially if the WAR is using VIT accessories or both are Ruby. IB also isn't anything special in T13, PLD CDs line up pretty well for Bahamut as they did for Nael. So the argument that WAR would have IB + something for every Flatten is kinda "meh". PLD also has the ability to Hallowed one of those Flattens which I'd say is better than having an IB for each one in it's own right.
But yeah. WAR can do it, but I'd say PLD has a bigger cushion for progression. Maybe once it's completely outgeared and Path isn't necessary, WAR could bump up just for the quicker kill (potentially) but outside of that I'd rather stick a PLD on MT duty. -
12-10-2014, 05:35 AMSirTaint
Dual WAR is best and we all know it.
1,2,3 MT WAR
SP,SE,BB OT WAR -
12-11-2014, 05:07 PMZarkovitch
i think your war as burnout playing war that happened to me too.me & our old pld was tired to play our classes when we begin fcob we decide switch,we never go back. & yeah war is pretty useful for t12-13 storm path/eye is good stuff.he's maybe tired to play off tank want to main tank like i did on early fcob.
if doesn't want cooperated with group then find a other war or... switch to war & he's gonna be pld (suggestion). -
12-13-2014, 10:27 AMCeodore
As much as I love Paladins and playing Paladin, I hate having a Paladin with me as another tank when I am a Paladin. Simply put, the spice of life is variety. Variety in the bedroom, variety in food, and variety in your party. 2 Paladins playing together or 2 Warriors playing together is kind of like what I would think fighting Siamese twins would look like. Stumbling all over one another but stuck together. Paladin and Warrior combos are synergetic. Neither one of them overwrites the others skills, and everyone gets to do their best. He doesn't want to play warrior, then let him play Paladin... somewhere else. This is, of course, assuming that your Paladin doesn't want to switch.