Punished by the game for being a Dragoon. (Magic defense and 2.4)

Hello,

Unlike to recent discussions about dragoon being unbalanced and stuffs in the way they dps or buffs as a direct comparison to ninja (which isn't the subject of my thread, please leave the debate for another thread :p)

My static and I decided to show you a little preview of the real problem about drg, what is a dragoon's life in FCOB right now and how they re punished by the game itself, not because of bad gameplay or bad luck... But just because their magic defense is way too low :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSQuL9gC470 ***Blood for Blood wasn't used before nerve cloud in this video!*** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbDqGo4mmQs
Special detail about the above video : Nerve Cloud which appear everytime after the adds phase end (as a signature attack) always critical in the higher damages tier for everyone, there is no RNG involved with this attack.
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Our Dragoon mate is an amazing player and he always do a proper job during raids, but get constantly punished by the game itself for playing a job he like... This is unfair and sad.

This is the whole point of this thread : having a dragoon in your team for fcob will make fights harder to deal with, it will slow down your raid progression, your dragoon will need special-extra cares and sometimes it won't even be enough, this is unfair for dragoons. :

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Originally Posted by Alomeigne

I totally agree with what has been said here. My group tried all of once to mitigate the Nerve Cloud without a tank lb and I got hit for 6760 damage...with adlo, stoneskin, fairy etc up. If a class has to babied through a mechanic, it should at least have some payoff...but as of right now, especially in T11, there is no payoff at all for playing dragoon :(. (Well, except for how fun I find it, but fun does not push down raid progression :/.)

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Originally Posted by Kyros

It is VERY noticeable in FCoB. The thing is that it seems SE balances Physical attacks around healers, so an unavoidable mechanic needs to be at least survivable by mages who have the least Physical defense. However, the team balances Magic attacks around other DPS's, so they only need be survivable by MNK/NIN/BRD, leaving DRG in the cold.

It's got to the point where we have to take extra precautions to let our DRG live. We crafted him some i90 VIT-melded accesories (Comlpetly uneeded by the other DPS classes, and further impairs his DPS), we have the BLM use Apocatastasis on him for any big hit, and he is perma-stoneskin'd for T10 in case he gets Prey (Since Adlo alone won't save him). We don't take this precautions with anyone else, unless they are weakened.

To me, it makes no sense that a class with positionals, closest to the danger and wearing a heavier suit of armor than everyone else takes more damage. Specially considering DRG shared a lot of TANK items at lower levels. If anything, their magic def should at least equal MNK/NIN/BRD.

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Thanks for your feedbacks Alomeigne and Kyros /bow.

Critical balance issue for dragoons while respecting the traditional trinity "2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps" and the future healer job released in 3.0 :

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Originally Posted by Ryel

No single job should require an "optimal" party setup to survive on their own merit, whether the party contains 2 SCH, 2 WHM, or a solitary healer should have ZERO effect on the Dragoon's native survivability especially considering this is NOT the case for any other job.

Add to this the fact that there are only 2 Healing jobs available in the game currently, it's not even that uncommon to see groups running 2 SCH or 2 WHM if for no other reason than the lack of an available alternative.

Dragoon should not be penalized for a party attempting to be flexible in it's composition.

As the example given, if the next healer released doesn't have a form of Magic Damage mitigation is Dragoon only going to be viable in parties that specifically have a White Mage as a healer? That condition alone would be enough to bar them from almost all endgame content in favor of another DPS (remember no other DPS has this problem currently) if a party cannot meet that criteria.

Lets not act like this isn't an issue.

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Also...

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In that video its actually your whms fault that the drg died.

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Originally Posted by Vinyl

They don't actually seem to have a white mage. I just see two scholars. Dragoon in our static never gets one shotted there with proper stoneskin buff.

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You re not getting the point, it's not about a fault matter, it's about the fact that if our dragoon was playing monk or any other dps, he would have lived. It's again the same problem on T12, if our dragoon isn't shielded for a whitefire : he can get one shot, especially as double sch, other people won't need a shield and survives.

Also²...
Since some people seems to doubt if "blood for blood" was used or not before Nerve cloud :

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Originally Posted by Ryans

They can claim the Dragoon didn't have blood for blood, but unless they are actually certain he didn't then none of this matters. I don't know about you, but I don't think highly enough of humanity as to tell the truth when it doesn't suit their desires. I would just like more definitive proof of whether or not the Dragoon did have blood for blood or not.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Like other people have said was blood for blood up? I never seen anyone get hit for that much then again we stoneskin everyone. There isn't enough before the video to see if he used it or not.

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We made another video to prove that "blood for blood" wasn't used. (when our dragoon got raised, he used it right away to continue dps, which prove what we told you :p) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbDqGo4mmQs
I'm not here to fight with someone arguments because there is no need to :p the fact is clear enough : if our dragoon was a mnk or a ninja or anything else he wouldn't get one shot like that.
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Note : Please, if you agree that dragoon need a boost of their magic defense, thumb-up this thread :) It would be sad to see more people quitting dragoon's job just to get rid of an unfair and unbalanced problem.

The Lost City of Ampdapor. "Idiot! Halfwit!"

Honestly though, the magic/physical defense ratio seems like a unneeded archaic design at this point of the game. Example from WoW, most people had enough defense (or HP) that they'd take relatively the same amount of damage from unavoidable AoEs, either that or it was static damage reduced only by resistance. It was actually on the tank's (as well as warriors) that'd have a miserable magic defense, but they had enough hp to take magic hits.

Independently if it's a casual or a hardcore raid, a player shouldn't be pushed away from a class he likes because he is constantly punished by mechanics of which he has no control over. it might be the best players ever, dodge every single aoe and keep a high dps... but since there's no way for them to increase their magic resistance they will be in a perpetual disadvantage in comparison to others.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The Lost City of Ampdapor. "Idiot! Halfwit!"

Honestly though, the magic/physical defense ratio seems like a unneeded archaic design at this point of the game. Example from WoW, most people had enough defense (or HP) that they'd take relatively the same amount of damage from unavoidable AoEs, either that or it was static damage reduced only by resistance. It was actually on the tank's (as well as warriors) that'd have a miserable magic defense, but they had enough hp to take magic hits.

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Nothing against having stats like magic defence and evasion, it's part of what make classes diverse and interesting. Normalization of attributes would only turn the game bland. The problem with Dragoons is that they have lass magic resistance than a crafter!

I honestly never understood why Dragoon has lower magic defense... I mean... It's a Job that is supposed to specialize in fighting magical fire breathing lizards, right? If anything I'd expect them to have the highest magic defense...

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Originally Posted by Edenholt

Nothing against having stats like magic defence and evasion, it's part of what make classes diverse and interesting. Normalization of attributes would only turn the game bland. The problem with Dragoons is that they have lass magic resistance than a crafter!

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And crafting gear uses the same defense budgeting as caster gear. You're essentially saying a caster has more magic defense than a DRG.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

And crafting gear uses the same defense budgeting as caster gear. You're essentially saying a caster has more magic defense than a DRG.

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A Caster/Crafter in NQ i55 has better Magic Defense than a Dragoon in i130.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

A Caster/Crafter in NQ i55 has better Magic Defense than a Dragoon in i130.

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And a DRG in NQ i55 has more physical defense than a caster in i130.

But really, I'm just nitpicking here; but simply saying "DRG such a low magic defense, a caster has more than him wearing low level gear!" doesn't depict why it's a bad element of the game and needs to be changed, because the opposite is also true (a caster has such a low physical defense, a DRG has more than him wearing low level gear)

I've always seen DRG as a bit of an odd duck myself. The justification for why they don't get a lot of things is that "they can take physical hits better"
But really what good is that for a non-tank class? Sure there are plenty of physical AOEs out there, but i've noticed the lion's share of them tend to be point blank.
I'm normally not one for homogenizing stat layouts, but as far as defenses go, if they're getting slaughtered by things other DPS classes can shrug off (made even worse by the fact that the i110 MNK and NIN gear technically gives nice meaty boosts to physical mitigation by giving both STR and DEX, thus making the discrepancy even larger at that particular tier) there's something wrong.
And as someone point out...they're warriors specifically trained to fight DRAGONS. Big scaly monsters with MAGIC BREATH. Yet they take magical hits worse than CHEFS. It's like sending firefighters to fight fires in fur suits!

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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Think of it this way: why is there threads about DRG poor magic DEF, while there is none on Caster's physical DEF? As far as I know casters never worry about physical attacks unless they are doing solo content. Bosses/adds are tanked by the tanks and they can simply cast away. No raid wide physical AOE attacks that can hurt them. But there is an abundance of Magic AoE in end game that hurts the DRG a lot.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

But really, I'm just nitpicking here; but simply saying "DRG such a low magic defense, a caster has more than him wearing low level gear!" doesn't depict why it's a bad element of the game and needs to be changed, because the opposite is also true (a caster has such a low physical defense, a DRG has more than him wearing low level gear)

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the trouble is more of 80% of the attack from end game are magical attack, leading to a unfair disadvantage for the dragoon. most of the physical attack are the auto attack from the boss, generally you will get magical damage for the AoE and stuff like this. this difference of magical defense have no sense, since if the dragoon are killer of dragon. this last one will use magical type damage like breath. why them defense will be weak against them enemy main weapon?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

the trouble is more of 80% of the attack from end game are magical attack, leading to a unfair disadvantage for the dragoon. most of the physical attack are the auto attack from the boss, generally you will get magical damage for the AoE and stuff like this. this difference of magical defense have no sense, since if the dragoon are killer of dragon. this last one will use magical type damage like breath. why them defense will be weak against them enemy main weapon?

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I know, thats what I mentioned in the 2nd post of the topic. I already said I was nitpicking at the whole "DRG has less defense than a crafter!" bit.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I know, thats what I mentioned in the 2nd post of the topic. I already said I was nitpicking at the whole "DRG has less defense than a crafter!" bit.

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my bad, sorry, just i can understand the point of the dragoon, when i don't understand why they must have less M.def. it's a bit like, the reason behind, why the dragoon jump don't turn them invincible when not on the ground. worst the whole mechanic make this skill dangerous. we can argue that it will be used for nullify some attack, but the dragoon have something else to bother that nullify attack.

In that video its actually your whms fault that the drg died. Nobody is stoneskined for nerve cloud. When the party is killing the egg he has enough time to stoneskin everyone because very little damage is going out on the party at that point. You want a change when the fight isn't being properly executed.

The whole mdef thing is just a flavor type thing most likly they can off tank adds better then say a mage. Some people use a drg to tank the garuda ex add because they have higher physical def so they only need 1 tank.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In that video its actually your whms fault that the drg died. Nobody is stoneskined for nerve cloud. When the party is killing the egg he has enough time to stoneskin everyone because very little damage is going out on the party at that point. You want a change when the fight isn't being properly executed.

The whole mdef thing is just a flavor type thing most likly they can off tank adds better then say a mage. Some people use a drg to tank the garuda ex add because they have higher physical def so they only need 1 tank.

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They don't actually seem to have a white mage. I just see two scholars. Dragoon in our static never gets one shotted there with proper stoneskin buff.

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Originally Posted by Vinyl

They don't actually seem to have a white mage. I just see two scholars. Dragoon in our static never gets one shotted there with proper stoneskin buff.

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SCH can still stoneskin there is no reason not to do it almost no damage is going out when you are killing the egg. Do you want to take the risk of someone dying cause the game decides to hit them in the higher damage range?

A lot of dragoon deaths come from using b4b at the wrong time. In t10, charge can kill you because of b4b when you would have survived.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

SCH can still stoneskin there is no reason not to do it almost no damage is going out when you are killing the egg. Do you want to take the risk of someone dying cause the game decides to hit them in the higher damage range?

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No, I agree with you. There's plenty of skills and spells you can use to to make sure your entire group survives that aoe and it doesn't seem they were using all of them and the dragoon suffers because of it. I was simply pointing out there was no white mage.

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Originally Posted by Vinyl

They don't actually seem to have a white mage. I just see two scholars. Dragoon in our static never gets one shotted there with proper stoneskin buff.

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You understand that it only reinforce our argument, right? Why Dragoons need any special protection while everybody else survive while under the same circumstance and having the same buffs? Good the Dragoons have high phy defence, but when all the one shot mechanics are based on magic damage it's a bit useless, as it's unlikely we'll be using a DRG to tank anything in a progression raid. We actually take care to keep him alive but for the sake of demonstration we picked a video in which everybody had the same buffs to show how "weird" it is. You can't use dated content to justify the low magic defence, because it's hard to find someone doing end game content and performing such stunt while undergeared.

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Originally Posted by Edenholt

You understand that it only reinforce our argument, right? Why Dragoons need any special protection while everybody else survive while under the same circumstance and having the same buffs? Good the Dragoons have high phy defence, but when all the one shot mechanics are based on magic damage it's a bit useless, as it's unlikely we'll be using a DRG to tank anything in a progression raid. We actually take care to keep him alive but for the sake of demonstration we picked a video in which everybody had the same buffs to show how "weird" it is. You can't use dated content to justify the low magic defence, because it's hard to find someone doing end game content and performing such stunt while undergeared.

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DPS that gets extra pampering and requires more attention to survive, yet output similar, if not less dps than others with less utility.

There's a big disconnect between stuff that's meant for soloing and stuff that's actually used in endgame. I can sort of see the logic behind giving them more physical defense while soloing or in low level content if they accidentally pull hate, especially since it's a class and a job that naturally generates more hate and that's why it's given a hate dump ability vs classes that naturally generate less hate because they don't have a way to dump it or reduce it, but that's thrown out the window the second they reach proper endgame.

There's nothing they can realistically off off tank in endgame, aka Coil, aside from maybe the FF13 adds in T4 in a farm party with a solo tank, but that's it, and I guess CT/ST maybe but that's not really what you'd call proper endgame but sure let's give it that. Same thing with say Haymaker being great while soloing but turning completely useless in endgame, unless you get really really lucky and most of the time that means purposefully or accidentally getting hit by stuff to proc it.

It's also a side effect of mixing stuff clearly meant for PvP into PvE, it's probable they could have intended for defense to actually work in PvP but decided against it sometime during its development, but still left their stats like that for PvE. They could have meant to make them more resistant against physical classes in PvP, but weaker against casters, only to really screw them over in PvE especially since that lower Magic Defense doesn't provide a counter advantage in Coil when almost all the damage, unavoidable too, from Coil mechanics is magic based.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

SCH can still stoneskin there is no reason not to do it almost no damage is going out when you are killing the egg. Do you want to take the risk of someone dying cause the game decides to hit them in the higher damage range?

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I'm sorry but your argument is false, Nerve cloud attack right after the egg is always in the highest critical numbers (for everyone), that's the reason why we made this comparison, everyone lived with about 500 to 2k HP (more for tanks of course), with the same buffs our dragoon died.

Quoting youm's reply from youtube for more details :

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No blood for blood. Storm's path, virus and dragon kick on the boss, adloq on everyone and fairy buff. We usually use the tank LB as well, as even with stoneskin the DRG still dies (no magic def on sch protect, and only 10% with sch stoneskin isnt enough to make him survive). The tank lb kicked in a second too late on this attempt, and the drg clearly died despite the fact the rest of the group still had over 10% of their health left. (He took 6.6k dmg while the rest of the group only took 4.9k).

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Also...

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In that video its actually your whms fault that the drg died.

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Originally Posted by Vinyl

They don't actually seem to have a white mage. I just see two scholars. Dragoon in our static never gets one shotted there with proper stoneskin buff.

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You re not getting the point, it's not about a fault matter, it's about the fact that if our dragoon was playing monk or any other dps, he would have lived. It's again the same problem on T12, if our dragoon isn't shielded for a whitefire : he will get one shot, other people won't need a shield and survives.

I'm not here to fight with someone arguments because there is no need to :p the fact is clear enough : if our dragoon was a mnk or a ninja or anything else he wouldn't get one shot like that.
This is the whole point of this thread : having a dragoon in your team for fcob will make fights harder to deal with, it will slow down your raid progression, your dragoon will need special-extra cares and sometimes it won't even be enough, this is unfair for dragoons.

I know people say the Dragoon didn't have blood for blood up because it isn't shown on the buff list, but it entirely possible that he did. It only shows a limited number of debuffs/buffs on the party list. Unless you can definitively tell us that he did not have blood for blood up, that video has no merit. Dragoon has less magic defense, but more HP. Given the same buffs and ilvl, a Dragoon will survive just as well as any other melee.

Is that so hard to read the post right above your?

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Originally Posted by Ryans

I know people say the Dragoon didn't have blood for blood up because it isn't shown on the buff list, but it entirely possible that he did. It only shows a limited number of debuffs/buffs on the party list. Unless you can definitively tell us that he did not have blood for blood up, that video has no merit.

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Duh, read above, requoting for you :

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No blood for blood.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Given the same buffs and ilvl, a Dragoon will survive just as well as any other melee.

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False :/ especially in fcob :

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

It's again the same problem on T12, if our dragoon isn't shielded for a whitefire : he will get one shot, other people won't need a shield and survives.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I honestly never understood why Dragoon has lower magic defense... I mean... It's a Job that is supposed to specialize in fighting magical fire breathing lizards, right? If anything I'd expect them to have the highest magic defense...

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This right here, folks.

I totally agree with what has been said here. My group tried all of once to mitigate the Nerve Cloud without a tank lb and I got hit for 6760 damage...with adlo, stoneskin, fairy etc up. If a class has to babied through a mechanic, it should at least have some payoff...but as of right now, especially in T11, there is no payoff at all for playing dragoon :(. (Well, except for how fun I find it, but fun does not push down raid progression :/.)

DRG Magic def doesn't worry me, that's how they designed the class around the other tools they have.

What worries me is, how did FCoB successfully passed several QA tests without noticing this critical issue? Did they never use a DRG for testing? Or did they test using i130 gear?

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Originally Posted by Alukah

What worries me is, how did FCoB successfully passed several QA tests without noticing this critical issue? Did they never use a DRG for testing? Or did they test using i130 gear?

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They probably tested with a party in full i120-130 gear under the assumption that this is the "intended" item level for the encounters.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

SCH can still stoneskin there is no reason not to do it almost no damage is going out when you are killing the egg. Do you want to take the risk of someone dying cause the game decides to hit them in the higher damage range?

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interesting thing, no one had stone skin. even with stone skin, unless he was topped off, he still would have died. OP said he took 6.6k dmg. take 600 for stone skin, and still not enough.

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Originally Posted by Krr

They probably tested with a party in full i120-130 gear under the assumption that this is the "intended" item level for the encounters.

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More than likely they're tested with full sets of the available gear up to that point.
For example, full High Allagan, or i120 gear plus drops from the previous turn.
It's actually a rather interesting issue in testing. See, those that test are basically at the level of the FCs/groups that clear within the first week in terms of skill. And they have to do that every single day multiple times.
So chances are it's a testing oversight due to the testers being too good at their jobs. Over time content we struggle with can become like spinning a wheel of barnyard animal noises to them.

Really doubt they tested Turn 13 with 110. I'm sure they only tested with 125-130 because that's meant to be the intended level.

These are probably the intended ilevels.

Turn 10: 110-115
Turn 11: 115-120
Turn 12: 120-125
Turn 13: 125-130

I showed the video to a few DRG friends and they agree that the magic defence needs to be buffed. However, they've also mentioned that the video doesn't show the actual buff list of that DRG so we were kind of skeptical about it because of the way the game arranges your buffs (Debuffs > Healer Buffs > Etc buffs). Meaning, even though you say that he didn't have blood for blood up, it is entirely possible that blood for blood was up during the attack for the video.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I showed the video to a few DRG friends and they agree that the magic defence needs to be buffed. However, they've also mentioned that the video doesn't show the actual buff list of that DRG so we were kind of skeptical about it because of the way the game arranges your buffs (Debuffs > Healer Buffs > Etc buffs). Meaning, even though you say that he didn't have blood for blood up, it is entirely possible that blood for blood was up during the attack for the video.

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If you really wanted to you could just watch for his falling icons to verify this. However this is a known issue with dragoons so I am opt to agree with the OP.

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

Is that so hard to read the post right above your?

Duh, read above, requoting for you :



False :/ especially in fcob :

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Yes I read all the posts before mine. They can claim the Dragoon didn't have blood for blood, but unless they are actually certain he didn't then none of this matters. I don't know about you, but I don't think highly enough of humanity as to tell the truth when it doesn't suit their desires. I would just like more definitive proof of whether or not the Dragoon did have blood for blood or not.

do you ever went amdapor keep 1 year ago? bards etc lost half hp from sucubus fireball, dragoons were 1 shot

no matter if they used b4b or not

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I honestly never understood why Dragoon has lower magic defense... I mean... It's a Job that is supposed to specialize in fighting magical fire breathing lizards, right? If anything I'd expect them to have the highest magic defense...

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This is what I caught, and thought.. lol, are they serious? It's like no wonder Ishgard still fighting them Dragons.

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Originally Posted by HulveinBlitz

This is what I caught, and thought.. lol, are they serious? It's like no wonder Ishgard still fighting them Dragons.

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Then Derplander strolls into Ishgard to help, and goes "Let me nerf my defense and delete my magic defense to help with these dragons!", before promptly using Elusive Jump to fall off a bridge.

It would actually be kind of nice if they made Dragoons low magic defense somehow mechanically relevant... Like, an ability which absorbs 50% magic damage and enhances your next Jump with it. That way OK they have low magic defense, but at least they're using it to create a bigger boost of damage (taking 1000 damage with low magic defense and adding 500 to a Jump > taking 900 with high magic defense and only adding 450 to Jump).

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

If you really wanted to you could just watch for his falling icons to verify this. However this is a known issue with dragoons so I am opt to agree with the OP.

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Yes, I agree with the OP, and a lot of DRGs I know agree too. But the fact is that the video doesnt show if the DRG had blood for blood or not, nor does it show the buff activating or dropping off.

Like other people have said was blood for blood up? I never seen anyone get hit for that much then again we stoneskin everyone. There isn't enough before the video to see if he used it or not.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

It would actually be kind of nice if they made Dragoons low magic defense somehow mechanically relevant... Like, an ability which absorbs 50% magic damage and enhances your next Jump with it. That way OK they have low magic defense, but at least they're using it to create a bigger boost of damage (taking 1000 damage with low magic defense and adding 500 to a Jump > taking 900 with high magic defense and only adding 450 to Jump).

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I really like this idea.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

interesting thing, no one had stone skin. even with stone skin, unless he was topped off, he still would have died. OP said he took 6.6k dmg. take 600 for stone skin, and still not enough.

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I see that there wasn't a WHM but had there been a whm stoneskin would of mitigated 1080 damage at 6k hp. Most do have a whm though.