Remove the Class System in 3.0

SE should remove the class system in 3.0 and just have Jobs because the class system serves no purpose except to restrict jobs and it's a relic from 1.0 that's out of place in A Realm Reborn.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

SE should remove the class system in 3.0 and just have Jobs because the class system serves no purpose except to restrict jobs and it's a relic from 1.0 that's out of place in A Realm Reborn.

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Could you clarify what you mean by "Restrict Jobs"?

I think they should have had Jobs start at level 1 and be powered up and more focused (kinda like they are now) versions of the classes needed to gain them. Then leave classes more generalized with a wider range of cross skills to select. This would hopefully add more depth and make both more useful depending on your situation. Right now there really is no need to be a class once you get the job.

They've already said they're redoing the way those work.
That, combined with the fact that, unlike all the other classes, ROG has an actual set visual aesthetic, tells me we might be seeing a split.
It's restrictive as it stands because there's not much tweaking you can do when adding a new job to suddenly make it take another role entirely.
For example, if you wanted to make CNJ a DPS job, you'd give them ALL DPS abilities but they'd still have some of the strongest heals in the game. ACN/SMN/SCH is the only real exception since the class/jobs were designed from the beginning to be split between heals and DPS.
The only current way to keep the system is to have certain abilities tweaked by being a different job a la Carbuncle->Eos/Garuda Egi

Didn't they talk about re-doing a few things for 3.0?

~History~:
First we just had classes.
Then they added jobs to attach to the classes with the intention that classes be better suited for solo play and Jobs be better for group play.
No one went back to classes, because any perceivable advantage they provided to solo players wasn't enough to bother with it.
Now we got a system that feels almost entirely arbitrary.

And that's basically it.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

Didn't they talk about re-doing a few things for 3.0?

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Did they? I don't see them removing classes due to rogue/ninja coming out.
They wouldn't waste the dev time on something that would just be removed and by removed I mean the rogue portion.

What? Did you do a thread like this in every subforum?
Renowned orders like the dragoons and the monks don't want to talk to novices who can barely hold a weapon. Get over it.
Wanna now why the class system stays? A new class will come next week. SE won't add to a system that will disappear in the forseeable future.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

What? Did you do a thread like this in every subforum?
Renowned orders like the dragoons and the monks don't want to talk to novices who can barely hold a weapon. Get over it.
Wanna now why the class system stays? A new class will come next week. SE won't add to a system that will disappear in the forseeable future.

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To be fair it's possible, in 1.0 they spent 3-6 months making gear for 1.0 even though they wouldn't use any of those resources once 2.0 hit, so it's not hard to consider that while we have Rogue/NIN now that comes 3.0 they won't change the class system.

The reason why it wouldn't change now with the release of a new class is two reason, it's patch 2.4 and patch 3.0 won't hit til spring 2015, that's still a 5-6 months away nearly half a year. So with the time in between and if expansions work anything like XI another group is currently working on the expansion.

For a little info with XI the expansion packs were done by different teams, when one dev group was working on the game another group worked on making the expansion pack and then they switched places when the expansion hit, the other group would make the expansion pack and the group who made the expansion pack would patch the updates for that content which they worked on.

If 14 has the same group split then those working on 3.0 might have also been working on a system to revamp the class system however it's something that wouldn't be done til 3.0 hits which means that they could either not release ROG/NIN til 3.0 or release it with their current system in mind and then revamp it come 2015.

Heck look at WoW for example, how many times have they changed their systems, the way skill trees worked, the implementation of becoming stronger etc etc. MMOs are a very flexible design so what we see now can drastically change in 6 months. But like all things it takes time to produce it and because it takes time the devs have to consider is it better to just scrap ROG/NIN for what it is or release it now and make said changes come 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

~History~:
First we just had classes.
Then they added jobs to attach to the classes with the intention that classes be better suited for solo play and Jobs be better for group play.
No one went back to classes, because any perceivable advantage they provided to solo players wasn't enough to bother with it.
Now we got a system that feels almost entirely arbitrary.

And that's basically it.

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fixed it for you.
It doesn't help that when you get to 50 and get enough gear, your class doesn't make much of a difference anymore.
Also there are a few weird things people don't realize about the classes/jobs...for example, in a fight with skilled enough people, a Bard doesn't actually use their songs or rain of death. which makes me wonder at the potential viability of a pure archer.
Unfortunately they can't equip the relic weapon, so there's that.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

Could you clarify what you mean by "Restrict Jobs"?

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"Summoner and Scholar should be split so Summoner can be a pet job and Scholar can be a healer tactical job"

Please look forward to it.

He does this only all the time.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

for example, in a fight with skilled enough people, a Bard doesn't actually use their songs.

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Wut? Maybe with skilled enough people, the brd doesn't need to play ballad. But the brd needs to play tp song, for example, in turn 8, especially if there is a skilled mnk in the party.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

fixed it for you.
In a fight with skilled enough people, a Bard doesn't actually use their songs or rain of death. which makes me wonder at the potential viability of a pure archer.
Unfortunately they can't equip the relic weapon, so there's that.

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Uhh I dont know what kind of group youre in but a BRDs songs are needed. TP Song in T8 for Melee, Foe Req and Mages Ballad for Casters Nuking.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

Wut? Maybe with skilled enough people, the brd doesn't need to play ballad. But the brd needs to play tp song, for example, in turn 8, especially if there is a skilled mnk in the party.

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A DRG is generally gonna run out of TP before the MNK. Especially if the DRG does what its supposed to do and die mid-fight.

I like classes, simply because it makes the Job feel more special from a lore perspective. Lots of people are thaumaturges, anyone can train to be one! But you're a black mage because you're awesome. So it gets "discarded" in usage. I don't really think that's a bad thing.

The second reason is that I like one class being able to split into different roles like Summoner and Scholar. They should keep doing that, they just need to make bonus points a per-job thing when the split causes you to use a new primary stat.
The idea you're limiting jobs to X weapons or Y skills is artificial and fixable.

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

The second reason is that I like one class being able to split into different roles like Summoner and Scholar. They should keep doing that, they just need to make bonus points a per-job thing when the split causes you to use a new primary stat.
The idea you're limiting jobs to X weapons or Y skills is artificial and fixable.

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My real disagreement with the system they have in place now is that the class and job share levels. I'd love to see you unlock a new job but it starts at level 1 (or hey, it starts at 30, why not...) but has its own advancement in levels from there. Your example brings up the big problem with it. Summoner and Scholar. I focused on Scholar before anything in 2.0, was my first 50. And you know what? I magically had a level 50 Summoner too that I just had to do a handful of quests to unlock.

It'll be the same if they add new jobs to existing classes if the system stays as is. Something has to change. If, for example, in 3.0 they add Dark Knight as a job for... i dunno. Lets say Gladiator because swords (Really, Just using it as an example, not saying it will or should be this class or anything of the sort). That means a level 50 Paladin just has to do about five quests or so, then they have a level 50 Dark Knight.

I would say give the Class system time to expand. It does no harm to the game being there. You are going on a progressive route to 50 ability and level wise. Not to mention, what Yoshi-P said during the expansion announcements was "New Jobs", meaning possibly just new jobs attached to a previous class. Only thing SE really needs to change is letting you allocate stats within a job and not the class itself.

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Originally Posted by Mysteran

My real disagreement with the system they have in place now is that the class and job share levels. I'd love to see you unlock a new job but it starts at level 1 (or hey, it starts at 30, why not...) but has its own advancement in levels from there. Your example brings up the big problem with it. Summoner and Scholar. I focused on Scholar before anything in 2.0, was my first 50. And you know what? I magically had a level 50 Summoner too that I just had to do a handful of quests to unlock.

It'll be the same if they add new jobs to existing classes if the system stays as is. Something has to change. If, for example, in 3.0 they add Dark Knight as a job for... i dunno. Lets say Gladiator because swords (Really, Just using it as an example, not saying it will or should be this class or anything of the sort). That means a level 50 Paladin just has to do about five quests or so, then they have a level 50 Dark Knight.

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That PLD still needs to get gear for DRK, assuming DRK is the melee DPS counterpart. Which arguably is the hard part of getting a character ready, not necessarily the route from 1-50.

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Originally Posted by Valmar

Uhh I dont know what kind of group youre in but a BRDs songs are needed. TP Song in T8 for Melee, Foe Req and Mages Ballad for Casters Nuking.

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Foe Req and Mage's Ballad aren't strictly needed. It's not like healers run out of MP in every fight, and in my experience if they ARE there's a wipe coming soon whether or not ballad is up. Foe req is a convenience more than anything and completely pointless if you have no caster DPS in your party.
TP song maybe, but i've only seen one fight where that's cited. Recovery from death doesn't count, as my assumption is against encounters where no one is actually messing up.
Just as there ARE situations where the songs could come in handy or are necessary, there are also situations where they collect dust on the hotbar. Most of the songs are catered towards situations where people are dying. If no one in the party is dying, there's no need to sing.
Again things like t8 and Moggle Mog EX are the exception.

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Originally Posted by Mysteran

I focused on Scholar before anything in 2.0, was my first 50. And you know what? I magically had a level 50 Summoner too that I just had to do a handful of quests to unlock.

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no, you have a lv 50 ACN; and that ACN learned SMN and SCH skills, through job stones. you just did the same thing with SMN, as you did with SCH.
you don't level up SCH, you lv up ACN.
you don't lv up PLD, you lv up GLD; as such, if DRK comes from GLD, then you already know how to use a sword, so you just unlock your DRK skills from quests, like with every other job.
classes=wep skill level, which is why classes are tied to weps.

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Originally Posted by Mysteran

My real disagreement with the system they have in place now is that the class and job share levels. I'd love to see you unlock a new job but it starts at level 1 (or hey, it starts at 30, why not...) but has its own advancement in levels from there. Your example brings up the big problem with it. Summoner and Scholar. I focused on Scholar before anything in 2.0, was my first 50. And you know what? I magically had a level 50 Summoner too that I just had to do a handful of quests to unlock.

It'll be the same if they add new jobs to existing classes if the system stays as is. Something has to change. If, for example, in 3.0 they add Dark Knight as a job for... i dunno. Lets say Gladiator because swords (Really, Just using it as an example, not saying it will or should be this class or anything of the sort). That means a level 50 Paladin just has to do about five quests or so, then they have a level 50 Dark Knight.

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THIS. tbh, this is the only major problem with the class system. Everything else is relatively minor and could be fixed via tweaks. Job levels should not be equal to class levels. They should have their own level that is independent of your class. Classes should be more generalized and designed to branch into multiple jobs. For example, the basic Gladiator should be a tanky DPS hybrid. It should have multiple style stubs, such as sword&board (tank style), one-handed w/o shield or two-handed sword w/ heavy armor (DPS style), etc. They would have skills that apply across the class (but perhaps have special procs that occur when using specific weapons). Then, the Jobs are specialized versions of specific styles. Paladin uses tank-style Gladiator skills. Dark Knight uses DPS-style skills.

Also, classes should have extremely open cross-class ability access, while jobs should be extremely narrow (perhaps only allow skills from the primary class and the secondary class). Add in generalized high-level class gear that can be crafted, and you've got a workable system.

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Originally Posted by Mysteran

Your example brings up the big problem with it. Summoner and Scholar. I focused on Scholar before anything in 2.0, was my first 50. And you know what? I magically had a level 50 Summoner too that I just had to do a handful of quests to unlock.

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I see that as an advantage, not a problem. It gives people flexibility and saves time. It also makes it easier to try a new role which might help generate new tanks or healers and keep people interested.

Make classes into seperate jobs. Revamp the skill sets.

While I can't find a quote on it, they have said that there is an inherent issue in adding jobs to existing classes. If we take DRK as an example, were it to come from MRD or PLD all the moves that currently generate enmity would have to be altered when equipping the DRK crystal. In addition, there is the limitation of weapons. If you want DRK to use a scythe, in the current system the only way to make that happen is to implement a new base class that uses scythes. This would leave DRK locked into using an axe or a sword. This pretty much means that splitting jobs from a base class won't happen again.

As to the Classes vs Jobs, it could be viable to keep them around assuming that the base stats given by the job crystal were simply redistributed to the base class. Then choosing to forgo the crystal would not hamper DPS/Health/Mana in such an overwhelming way. If there is no plan on doing so, then the only reason for Classes to exist is novelty. That being said, my FC has had a lot of fun using classes with cross class skills to do things that are well out of the ordinary. For example, using an Archer with Provoke and a few defensive cooldowns to tank Titan HM.

I feel that in the long run, the devs would be doing themselves a favor to scrap Classes as soon as possible in order to mainline development of new Jobs, but we will just have to wait and see.

Yeah they should toss away classes.

They can keep classes in terms of a Job name/Title of Skill. Just remove option to switch between class to job.

Archer->Ranger->Bard
Marauder->Executioner->Warrior
Rouge->Thief->Ninja
Lancer->Templar-> Dragoon
Thaumaturge->Necomancer-> Blackmage
Knight-> Deathbringer-> DarkKnight

Going from 1 to another just mainly means you went up another 20-30 levels.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Foe Req and Mage's Ballad aren't strictly needed. It's not like healers run out of MP in every fight, and in my experience if they ARE there's a wipe coming soon whether or not ballad is up.
Again things like t8 and Moggle Mog EX are the exception.

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Sure, songs can be situational especially if you're overgeared for content but when it comes to progression bard songs are must. Mp ballad was great for progression in turn 7 since it allowed you to recover from multiple deaths. On turn 8 tp song is great for monk and drgs and mp ballad can be clutch sometimes depending on the situation. Smn's need it too at one point because they don't have infinite resources like blms. On turn 9 foe's requiem is a good way to get out of the heavensfall phase as quickly as possible especially before you outgear it.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Heck look at WoW for example, how many times have they changed their systems, the way skill trees worked, the implementation of becoming stronger etc etc. MMOs are a very flexible design so what we see now can drastically change in 6 months. But like all things it takes time to produce it and because it takes time the devs have to consider is it better to just scrap ROG/NIN for what it is or release it now and make said changes come 3.0.

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Yes it changed every x-pack. And everyone except for Metzen hates the current one. It's a sure sign that wow is indeed dying that they can't create a progression system (the very essence of MMORPGs) that survives for more than a year. I love the fealing of progressing from a simple lancer into an effin dragoon. Or from a lowly pugilist into a monk.

They talked about it. My guess is they will redo it in a way they can add jobs without the cross-class ability and attribute points stress.

To be honest, our current system is a horrible 1.0 remnant which should be removed.

actually the cross-class system has potential, but there is barely any freedom for it :/. I would like to see more flexibilty in cross class ability/trait selections, that would churn up things and make them more interesting for classes since they have more options to choose from then jobs! Everything is so underwhelming strict and unflexible ._.

obviously this only works if you let the classes also equip highend stuff gear

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Originally Posted by Daragust

In addition, there is the limitation of weapons. If you want DRK to use a scythe, in the current system the only way to make that happen is to implement a new base class that uses scythes. This would leave DRK locked into using an axe or a sword

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There's no reason at all that jobs/classes can't use different weapons. They're "Gladiator's Arms" not Gladiator's swords. Conjurers and Thaums both use 1 and 2-handed weapons. So you have Gladiator's Arm which is a scythe. It's also clearly possible to prevent a Paladin from holding a scythe in this case given Summoners can't use Scholar books. And as you see on Relic Weapons and Armor, it's possible to keep a straight gladiator from using a scythe too.

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I feel that in the long run, the devs would be doing themselves a favor to scrap Classes as soon as possible in order to mainline development of new Jobs, but we will just have to wait and see.

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Considering all jobs need a full set of skills how is is going to be any different? Calling a Thaumaturge a Black Mage from the beginning instead of level 30 does nothing to change anything. Everything has to still be there with or without the aspect of class. Keeping classes, at worst, they need to think of synergy to make it branch to two jobs.

Jobs ONLY make sense if each class has more than one. Otherwise it's simply a new name for the same thing.
Either:
* Expand upon the available jobs for each class
or
* Remove the "Job" system entirely.

There's tons of creative options out there for Job designs ranging from Magic using Tanks to Speedy Scythe Wielding attackers. Under no circumstances do designs have to be rigid or focused on the same "Arms" the base class started with. Here's some more of the interesting weapons I've had in MMOs;
*Scythe
*Kusarigama
*Twin Swords
*Sword+Magic Gauntlet
*Cross Bow
*Hammer

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

There's no reason at all that jobs/classes can't use different weapons. They're "Gladiator's Arms" not Gladiator's swords. Conjurers and Thaums both use 1 and 2-handed weapons. So you have Gladiator's Arm which is a scythe. It's also clearly possible to prevent a Paladin from holding a scythe in this case given Summoners can't use Scholar books. And as you see on Relic Weapons and Armor, it's possible to keep a straight gladiator from using a scythe too.

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The actual problem with DRK coming from GLA is two-fold; You do not swing, or even hold, a scythe/zweihander like you would a broadsword. That means adding new animations for every single non-magic skill (notice how using Stone Skin on PLD is the same animation as WHM doing it); GLA is very, very heavily rooted in tanking.

As said in the Gamerescape interview, the fact that there is no mention of new classes but only new multiple jobs during Las Vegas Fanfest was a good catch.

I hope we'll see more about the system changes regarding jobs this week end during the London FanFest, on top of some of the new jobs revealed.

Can't wait! :)

The class system is a relic from 1.0 they should remove it because it is so useless for the most part. Nobody plays classes except for leveling and once you hit level cap and if you play a class you are gimping yourself and missing key abilities. They would probably have to do a kind of big redesign if they took it out. The best time for that is at an expansion release.

They very well might do it because at fanfest they said new jobs and mentioned nothing about classes.

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Originally Posted by kiraan

As said in the Gamerescape interview, the fact that there is no mention of new classes but only new multiple jobs during Las Vegas Fanfest was a good catch.

I hope we'll see more about the system changes regarding jobs this week end during the London FanFest, on top of some of the new jobs revealed.

Can't wait! :)

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Could also mean that new jobs are just added to already made classes and you will get instant level 50 for new job. :P

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Originally Posted by Valmar

Uhh I dont know what kind of group youre in but a BRDs songs are helpful. TP Song in T8 for Melee, Foe Req and Mages Ballad for Casters Nuking.

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Fixed it for you.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

The class system is a relic from 1.0 they should remove it because it is so useless for the most part. Nobody plays classes except for leveling and once you hit level cap and if you play a class you are gimping yourself and missing key abilities. They would probably have to do a kind of big redesign if they took it out. The best time for that is at an expansion release.

They very well might do it because at fanfest they said new jobs and mentioned nothing about classes.

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Odd one out being MRD/WAR. LNC too can be an effective OT in Garuda Ex.

What if they totally redisigned new abilities for the classes,, split them from jobs and made them their own jobs?

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Originally Posted by Tempting

Could also mean that new jobs are just added to already made classes and you will get instant level 50 for new job. :P

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True, but i hope at least they'll find a solution for the instant level 50 job if you happen to have the base class at 50 already

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

Considering all jobs need a full set of skills how is is going to be any different? Calling a Thaumaturge a Black Mage from the beginning instead of level 30 does nothing to change anything. Everything has to still be there with or without the aspect of class. Keeping classes, at worst, they need to think of synergy to make it branch to two jobs.

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Which, as I stated, is causing them to have to work around the system. True every job will require a set of actions, but having to come up with that way to change things like enmity modifiers on abilities just to support a system that is no longer really valid is just a work around. Removing it and giving separate actions really does mainline development especially now with only one class to have to split (arcanist). If they were to decide to do it after adding more additional jobs its more work. Speaking as a developer, it is almost always more effort to continue to support a legacy idea with patches than it is to devote the upfront cost of changing it. The issue is, most people only look at the initial investment instead of the cost paid in continual upkeep.

My initial reaction.
http://i.imgur.com/WfPHCmq.gif

And then I saw that Akiza was the OP.
http://media2.giphy.com/media/d9YpHmnGFp1ny/200_s.gif

SE could change class level into weapon level and with weapon level 30 you unlock the job(s) for the weapon

I think that would be less confusing for some players here