Paladins are a rodeo clown. Warriors are a matador.

I am on the last two books to finish my Animus relic for Paladin. The shield was upgraded first, so it's the last two books for the Curtana to be upgraded. And I am totally burned out.

I freakin hate this quest so very much. Sure, I am so extremely tired of camping FATEs that only spawn once every hour or two, killing monsters that die in 5 hits and doing these stupid levequests.

But most of all I am sick, sick, SICK of tanking low level dungeons on a Paladin.


Ordinarily I never do the low level dungeon DF because of how much I hate running them on a Paladin.

Paladin is the most boring class pre-level 50, I still can't believe we don't have an AoE attack until level 50. And even then it is lolScorn. Oh boy, auto-attack damage to a group once every 25 seconds. I'm sure those Warriors with Overpower and 2.5 second cooldown Steel Cyclone are jealous, amirite?

I am actually looking forward to mindlessly farming FATEs for Alexandrite, because at least I won't have to run these low level dungeons anymore to complete my books, where I have to spam Flash and the Riot Blade combo for MP while hoping the DPS actually use their AoE attacks.

The funny thing: I wouldn't mind doing these low-level dungeons if Overpower was a cross-class skill for Paladins.

Also, it is rather funny seeing people think Paladins have a higher DPS potential than Warriors do.

=Against trash mobs=
Warriors can spam AoE damage. Paladins cannot.

Winner: Warrior

=Against bosses=
Warriors can buff their damage higher than Paladins, and keep the buff up longer. Warriors can also reduce the enemy's resistance to the slashing damage the Warrior inflicts, another thing that Paladins cannot do.

Winner: Warrior

This isn't rocket science guys.

You can try as much statistical voodoo to justify a world where Paladins can out-DPS Warriors but that isn't how the game is designed.

Believe me, I hate it as much as anyone. I hate tanking daily DF runs because half the time I end up with DPS who suck and fights drag out longer than they ought to, and without the ability to do AoE damage (lolScorn) I'm rather limited in my ability to improve the situation. As mentioned before, this is especially painful in pre-50 dungeons.

I have no idea why someone at SE thought Paladins should spam Flash to hold hate on packs of trash mobs for someone else to kill while spamming buffs to last long enough for the DPS to do their job, while Warriors can just spam two different AoE attacks to annihilate the trash mobs directly.

Paladins are like a rodeo clown -- we distract the bull for other folks to deal with --, whereas Warriors are a matador -- who kills the bull directly.

You wonder why DF queries are so long for anyone except tanks; the problem is simple: Paladins have a frustrating playstyle because they have no real AoE damage, which is a big deal because the majority of enemies fought in a DF are packs of trash mobs.

When there is only two classes in the game for tanking, you probably don't want one of them to be kind of frustrating to play.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Also, it is rather funny seeing people think Paladins have a higher DPS potential than Warriors do.

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What you smokin' boy? Nobody says that.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

snip

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I never really came across anyone who thought PLD could match WAR in terms of damage.

Actually, it should be common knowledge that Warrior beats Paladin any day in damage output.

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Originally Posted by Double

I never really came across anyone who thought PLD could match WAR in terms of damage.

Actually, it should be common knowledge that Warrior beats Paladin any day in damage output.

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some paladin still spread the false information that paladin with sword oath can do more damage than warrior *sighs* i still wait to see a paladin land some critical at 1100+

PLD needs some love from the devs. CoS needs some more DeePS and Shield Swipe should bonus RoH, also if they changed the damage dealing reduction of Shield Oath from 20% to 12% the PLD would still do less damage than a WAR, but it wouldn't be so embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by Double

I never really came across anyone who thought PLD could match WAR in terms of damage.

Actually, it should be common knowledge that Warrior beats Paladin any day in damage output.

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Go hang out in the Tank forums sometime.

It really depends on the situation. According to a study done on BG, a PLD in Sword Oath will out DPS a Warrior outside Defiance. But a Paladin in Shield Oath loses to a Warrior in Defiance. A Marauder, on the other hand, will out-DPS a PLD in Sword Oath. Not sure where Gladiator falls on that. (Similar gear, of course)

But anyway, that's why you see a lot of Paladins in Second Coil taking the off-tank position. After doing similar dps checks with the WAR in my static, the results seems to follow the research.

But to the original poster, I agree that Paladin is incredibly boring in low level dungeons.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

some paladin still spread the false information that paladin with sword oath can do more damage than warrior *sighs* i still wait to see a paladin land some critical at 1100+

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Big numbers syndrome is curable if you seek medical attention.

Sword Oath adds up. As OT PLD is not "miles behind" WAR. WAR trumps PLD easily in terms of DPS when comparing Defiance WAR to Shield Oath PLD. But battle of the off-tanks is not so easily decided.

Having dealt with PLD back when WAR was terrible; one's aggressive, one is defensive. "This isn't rocket science guys."

Better cool downs. Easier to play and manage. Hallowed Ground compared to Lolgang. PLD beat WAR DPS on OT every time because of the pacify on Zerk and RNG crits suck compared to SwO (Which is consistant FREE damage) and healers won't cleanse it. On main tanking? Sure. I'd agree PLD needs some work, especially low level (I don't see why they don't get Shield Oath early on). I'd go WAR any day.

Plus, low dungeons always suck. They take too long to run with all 3 of your abilities. >_>

Just to throw in my 2 gil, as a WHM, I prefer to join a party with PLD tank. I don't know why, but I seem to have harder time when I heal WAR. They seem more squishy. They sometimes instantly die during mad massive pull and I feel like I'm a shitty healer. Or maybe I really do suck as a healer. :'(

Whenever I join a Roulette, I constantly pray to get a PLD tank. If I emerge in Stone Vigil with a WAR tank, I want to /facedesk (or /facekeyboard).

Yes PLD don't have spike damage to splash to the whole group of enemies, but they seem to have notably higher survivability. And when I duo with my PLD friend, I feel invincible. We could duo pretty much anything that's outside of Duty Finder. I believe many healers out there also have much love for the Paladins!

Sorry to hear you hate your job. It's sad.

Yay first post. :p

Anyways I feel like people like to bash on pld a lot when compared to war, when they are two different jobs. Also if its damage and numbers you want to put out why not play a DPS class instead?

For pre-lvl50 dungeons I don't care if I'm pumping out high numbers or doing damage to every monster we encounter, that's what the dps are for, what I care about is that I'm doing my job, which is soaking up damage and keeping the attention of monsters and trust me, it feels good when you do it right and your party will appreciate you for it. I've heard lots of stories of what tanks don't do when running dungeons that makes me smh, both pld and war.

But I'll admit at times it can be hard doing that in pre-lvl50 dungeons but that's only because your dps are being impatient, really it's a group effort and if your dps or even healer are running around doing things they shouldn't than you're going to have to put in some extra effort into things or go with the whole "you own it/that's your problem now."

I haven't touched warrior nore does it interest me at the moment but the main job of war and pld is being the tank, holding aggro and letting everyone else do their job, everyone has a role and when all done right it makes things fun.

There's meant to be a difference in playstyle. Paladins are supposed to be iron walls that mitigate damage. They are the proactive tanks. Warriors are supposed to be the walls of living wood that slowly heal. They are the reactive tanks.

A lot of a Warrior's healing potential is highly dependent on damage dealt, which is the reason why WAR DPS is so high. We don't have nearly the same defensive capabilities Paladins do. We have Foresight as our only defensive buff. That's it. Nothing else. Warriors also get garbage for cross-class abilities. For ideal abilities, we get... what, Provoke? That's pretty much it for useful Warrior abilities. Paladins get MRD's Foresight and Bloodbath as well as CNJ's Stoneskin.

Does a Defiance Warrior deal more damage than a Shield Oath Paladin? Sure, but there is a very good reason for that, and that reason has to do with being able to shrug off the kinds of hits that a Warrior has difficulty dealing with, like Twintania's Death Sentence.

It's common sense that a 2-handed axe would deal more damage than a one-handed blade and a shield, and it makes just as much sense for a shield to block more damage than a 2-handed axe. That's just logic. And the game reflects that quite well. If you want to deal more damage as a tank, play the tank with the heavier weapon. Otherwise, take pride in the fact that you can mitigate a hell of a lot more damage than I could ever hope to just due to things like a natural Block rate, three times as many defensive buffs, and a damage mitigation spell tied to universal cooldown.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

some paladin still spread the false information that paladin with sword oath can do more damage than warrior *sighs* i still wait to see a paladin land some critical at 1100+

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It's not false information :l

Spike damage != DPS

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Originally Posted by Aleczan

Just to throw in my 2 gil, as a WHM, I prefer to join a party with PLD tank. I don't know why, but I seem to have harder time when I heal WAR. They seem more squishy. They sometimes instantly die during mad massive pull and I feel like I'm a shitty healer. Or maybe I really do suck as a healer. :'(

Whenever I join a Roulette, I constantly pray to get a PLD tank. If I emerge in Stone Vigil with a WAR tank, I want to /facedesk (or /facekeyboard).

Yes PLD don't have spike damage to splash to the whole group of enemies, but they seem to have notably higher survivability. And when I duo with my PLD friend, I feel invincible. We could duo pretty much anything that's outside of Duty Finder. I believe many healers out there also have much love for the Paladins!

Sorry to hear you hate your job. It's sad.

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as a warrior i could solo everything outside of duty finder and Rank A/S :p

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Originally Posted by VesperiaTonberry

as a warrior i could solo everything outside of duty finder and Rank A/S :p

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XD Just curious, what about G5 Treasure map? Like those that spawn Alpha Morbol or Alpha Chimera?

FYI, we cheated and summoned 2 chocobos, though.

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Originally Posted by Aleczan

XD Just curious, what about G5 Treasure map? Like those that spawn Alpha Morbol or Alpha Chimera?

FYI, we cheated and summoned 2 chocobos, though.

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yup solo'd them,
for morbol just save stun for bad breath, chimera is just survive the damage lol

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Originally Posted by VesperiaTonberry

yup solo'd them,
for morbol just save stun for bad breath, chimera is just survive the damage lol

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That's awesome.!

Maybe I just had bad luck with Roulette and WAR tanks. One WAR pulled everything until the last room before first boss in Dzemael and died and rage quit on me while BRD said it was my fault. That and so many other unlucky instances with WAR tanks that became my Duty Finder nightmares.....

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Originally Posted by Amenian

What you smokin' boy? Nobody says that.

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Paladins have higher dps in sword oath and less in shield. Paladins make better ots when you want the extra deeps.

Paladins need love, I agree. They could start by having their interrupt taken off the GCD and letting Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn pack more of a punch.

That said, as a Warrior, you can't really spam Overpower, or you'll run out of TP really fast. It's a very important, useful, and conspicuously fun ability, but it's been very carefully designed to punish you if you get too carried away. The presiding theme of the Warrior job is savagery, disciplined.

I hated every little second of leveling PLD, and well both low level tanks are just terribly designed, it's no wonder no one wants to play tanks, instead of stepping stones they have giant walls, and god forbid if you get a synced dps while you're not synced, hope you have the best gear at your level.

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Originally Posted by Aleczan

That's awesome.!

Maybe I just had bad luck with Roulette and WAR tanks. One WAR pulled everything until the last room before first boss in Dzemael and died and rage quit on me while BRD said it was my fault. That and so many other unlucky instances with WAR tanks that became my Duty Finder nightmares.....

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i always look at the party composition for big pull and ask them if they want it or not
although most of the time i avoid big pull on lowbie dungeon (gear scaling suck)
i hope we will meet someday at DF : )

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Originally Posted by VesperiaTonberry

as a warrior i could solo everything outside of duty finder and Rank A/S :p

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This.

Leveling my Gladiator, I had to party a lot to complete FATEs. If there wasn't another class around I was pretty much screwed, not because I could not take hits but because I couldn't kill all 3-4 mobs attacking me before my HP went to zero.

Even on my Conjurer I could do FATEs without a group, because I'd just run away and heal / sleep. Contrast to my level 50 Paladin, who is only able to solo FATES because my item level is still high even when synched down. And even then, while I can solo a FATE it is pretty damn painful experience and only possible because my Chocobo is a healer. Trying to kill a lv48+ FATE boss at 3 am while solo is tough on a Paladin if the adds get at you, only because you have to kill them 1 by 1.

It's not impossible, but my Summoner would do it faster and with less effort.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

I hated every little second of leveling PLD, and well both low level tanks are just terribly designed, it's no wonder no one wants to play tanks, instead of stepping stones they have giant walls, and god forbid if you get a synced dps while you're not synced, hope you have the best gear at your level.

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OMG Yes, this is sad but true. I've been helping friends through the 3 first dungeons (Sastasha-Tamtara-Copperbell) and she is a brand new player, on GLA. The other DPS persons, if they are synced from 50, always pulled hate. It was almost enough to make my GLA friend cry. She tried so hard, and mobs still run everywhere, even when I was helping her by giving advice through voice chat...

Recently, although GLA friend got to level 30 and changed to PLD and we were under level sync while helping the THM friend through the same 3 dungeons, hate still flew everywhere. We had one friendly and very understanding BLM last night and they even apologized for pulling hate. S/he was also very patient with us and said lots of nice stuff. THAT kindness and encouragement from the BLM helped both of my friends a lot.

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Originally Posted by VesperiaTonberry

i always look at the party composition for big pull and ask them if they want it or not
although most of the time i avoid big pull on lowbie dungeon (gear scaling suck)
i hope we will meet someday at DF : )

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Thanks! I hope too. I wish people were more informative and communicative in Duty Finder. It is always better to discuss plan and agree on what to do and what not to do, than to just blindly dive in. I'm mainly scared of Duty Finder because people don't talk and just do it their own way without trying to be a team player. I have equally bad times in DF when it is DPS who does not cooperate. Started to develop a minor case of DF phobia, LOL.

My experience with Warriors in DF is vastly better than my experience with Paladins.

However, class design isn't entirely the reason. Probably, more new players are drawn to the classic sword/shield archetype and don't pick up on precisely how their chosen role is meant to be played. Which, y'know, isn't too big a problem as long as you're willing to learn and roll with it, but the GLDs in low-level dungeons figuring they'll just wear leather armor so that they can DPS instead of tank... :rolleyes: Still, it's probably frustrating figuring you'd be the epic unstoppable sword-wielding hero...and, I mean, you kinda are...but finding that you might as well be armed with a butterknife for all the damage you do isn't much fun.

Warrior's got a bit more technicality to it as well, so it probably appeals to the more cerebral, performance-focused player, who tend to do very well in groups (save for insufferable tunnel-visioned DPS for whom no one can pull fast enough)

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

We have Foresight as our only defensive buff. That's it. Nothing else. Warriors also get garbage for cross-class abilities. For ideal abilities, we get... what, Provoke? That's pretty much it for useful Warrior abilities.

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You're incorrect on both fields. MRD/WAR get Vengeance at level 46, which lowers damage taken by 30% for 15s. That's nothing to sneeze at for a defensive option, nor is Inner Beast at level 35 (job quest), which lowers damage taken by 20%. Combined, that's a 50% damage reduction, and Inner Beast can be used anytime you get 5 stacks of Wrath (meaning you can constantly have this ready for when a boss is about to use a burst move, such as Twintania's Death Sentence).

As for ideal abilities for Cross-class from PLD, you're forgetting Convalescence (20% healing increase) and Awareness (lowers odds of suffering a Critical). We can also get Featherfoot and Internal Release to help with mitigating damage (dodging is also useful) and raising the enmity gained (dem crits), and Second Wind for that glorious 15% Max HP heal THAT CAN CRIT. So there are in fact good options for the WAR class to mitigate damage and for a few other things.

Tanking with PLD in lower levels isn't impossible. I use to have a huge problem with it till I learned to just be a Flashadin pretty much throughout the dungeon. I've seen plenty of PLDs charging in, using one flash (typically misplaced not even hitting all the mobs) and then forget the ability entirely. Is it fun? Hell no, but its effective till you get your Shield Oath and full single target combo.

My biggest gripe with PLD is alongside those talking about its effectiveness while soloing. This is the first Paladin I've played in any game where his cure is complete, utter trash. I'm fine with the class/job being the one taking longer to kill stuff solo, but needs the throughput to do so. Rip out Cure from CNJ sub-class and throw PLD a heavy MP cost cure. Make it 20% MP or something, I don't care; just make it useful like previous Paladins, strong cures and low MP pools.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Paladin is the most boring class pre-level 50, I still can't believe we don't have an AoE attack until level 50. And even then it is lolScorn. Oh boy, auto-attack damage to a group once every 25 seconds. I'm sure those Warriors with Overpower and 2.5 second cooldown Steel Cyclone are jealous, amirite?

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Oddly enough, I'm finding the same thing with Warrior being dull as sin compared to PLD. At least as a Gladiator I had defense CD to pop, as a marauder it's basically "me big brute, me smack you" which is about as mindless as it gets.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

I am actually looking forward to mindlessly farming FATEs for Alexandrite, because at least I won't have to run these low level dungeons anymore to complete my books, where I have to spam Flash and the Riot Blade combo for MP while hoping the DPS actually use their AoE attacks.

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Well, there's no cure for a rubbish Paladin. If you're spamming Riot Blade... you're doing it wrong. Savage Blade still has an enmity boost on it, so use it. Riot Blade does nothing for your enmity, and it's mild damage boost isn't going to save the WHM from aggro.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Also, it is rather funny seeing people think Paladins have a higher DPS potential than Warriors do.

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It's rather funny seeing Warriors assume that because they have a higher 'spike' damage that they can out DPS a Paladin. In the battle over time, Paladin wins.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

=Against trash mobs=
Warriors can spam AoE damage. Paladins cannot.[

Winner: Warrior

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Sure they can... they can also run out of TP in half the time by doing so. Paladin doesn't NEED to spam AoE to keep mobs. If you're doing this, you need to learn you job a little better.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

=Against bosses=
Warriors can buff their damage higher than Paladins, and keep the buff up longer. Warriors can also reduce the enemy's resistance to the slashing damage the Warrior inflicts, another thing that Paladins cannot do.

Winner: Warrior

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Are you a tank or a DPS? It sounds like you really want to level Dragoon or Monk, not a tank. Maybe you should look at a different job if you're aiming for big numbers. Again, all of that is just spike damage and doesn't necessarily represent all DPS.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Paladins are like a rodeo clown -- we distract the bull for other folks to deal with --, whereas Warriors are a matador -- who kills the bull directly.

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Yeah.. funny how Matadors always end up gored. I guess that's a pretty good analogy.

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

When there is only two classes in the game for tanking, you probably don't want one of them to be kind of frustrating to play.

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Yeah, for me that's Warrior. Sorry, but I didn't sign up to be a TANK just to play another lacklustre DPS. You can boast about your 'awesome' damage all you like, but it still pales in comparison to actual DPS classes. I wanted some actual defense to go with that brute strength, and instead I got a giant MP sink with an axe. Um.. yay?

I still fully intend to max it out, since it's literally the last job I have that isn't capped yet, but so far it's my least favourite job. So don't talk like you're speaking for the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You're incorrect on both fields. MRD/WAR get Vengeance at level 46, which lowers damage taken by 30% for 15s. That's nothing to sneeze at for a defensive option, nor is Inner Beast at level 35 (job quest), which lowers damage taken by 20%. Combined, that's a 50% damage reduction, and Inner Beast can be used anytime you get 5 stacks of Wrath (meaning you can constantly have this ready for when a boss is about to use a burst move, such as Twintania's Death Sentence).

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That's really the biggest problem I have with Warrior. Sure they have a defense CD, but it's really selective. Can only be used with 5 stacks, and you lose wrath with more than just 1 skill. Paladin, on the other hand, has cooldowns which are off GCD, can be used literally any time to defend against big hitters and even stacked to reap the extra defense if necessary. As both a White Mage and a Scholar, I can honestly hand-on-heart say that Warriors need considerably more heals to stay alive than a Paladin would in the same situation.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

As for ideal abilities for Cross-class from PLD, you're forgetting Convalescence (20% healing increase) and Awareness (lowers odds of suffering a Critical). We can also get Featherfoot and Internal Release to help with mitigating damage (dodging is also useful) and raising the enmity gained (dem crits), and Second Wind for that glorious 15% Max HP heal THAT CAN CRIT. So there are in fact good options for the WAR class to mitigate damage and for a few other things.

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I'd argue that some of their best and most useful skills actually come from cross-class. You know there's something wrong with the job when it's impossible to play without having levelled its rival class. It's virtually impossible to be a good tank without having Provoke, and literally impossible for the later battles where you NEED this skill. Second Wind is basically the only way I can ease the suffering WHM as a Marauder, who basically has to spam cures to keep me alive. The only other defensive cooldown I have is... Foresight. Yeah, do I even need to explain why that sucks?

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Originally Posted by Exstal

It's not false information :l

Spike damage != DPS

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it's true, that the spike damage, however, the warrior increase all him damage from 20% when the sword oath only increase auto attack damage by 50%. other point, warrior reduce defense against slashing damage by 10% and reduce the damage deal by the target of 10% as off tank the warrior is more powerfull by far and more interesting than the paladin. however, in terms of main tank, paladin is far better.

but seriously the paladin that try to say: "we can deal as much or more damage than the warrior" are simply clueless.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Well, there's no cure for a rubbish Paladin. If you're spamming Riot Blade... you're doing it wrong. Savage Blade still has an enmity boost on it, so use it. Riot Blade does nothing for your enmity, and it's mild damage boost isn't going to save the WHM from aggro.

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Savage Blade and RoH are perfect for handling groups when it isn't an AoE spamfest with more than 3 mobs.

Let's say it's a fairly big big pull, 5+ mobs: PLD only has one AoE Emnity gain move, which is Flash. Not a bad skill, but it eats a fair bit of MP and if you have two DPS AoE-ing everything then Savage Blade and RoH won't be much help unless you got enough hate beforehand and can cycle through all 5+ the mobs with SB and RoH. But that usually isn't the case, it's usually Shield Lob to grab monsters, then you get a flash and lolscorn in as soon as the BLMs or whoever's with you shoots off their AoE. At that point it's a Flash spam or risk losing at least some of the mobs. Out of MP and mobs still alive? It won't be long before a flare rips them away from a PLD. Riotblade combo is the only thing to get MP back mid battle, and no enmity on it. That is unless you have a bard with you and is kind enough to battlevoice a mage ballad.

That said, it certainly isn't impossible to maintain hate on a group of mobs while it's getting blasted with AoEs, but it can be fair bit harder for PLD's in trash pulls since Flash is crap in terms of enmity gain compared to Overpower.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

It's not false information :l

Spike damage != DPS

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This.

Otherwise DRGs would out DPS MNK.

Berserk increase Attack power by 50% for 20 seconds.Fight or flight is a straight damage increase by 30% for 30 seconds. Fight or flight wins. But yes, PLD is the lowest AE damage of every job, also a well played WAR isnt really any squishier than a PLD. Maintain Storms Path and good timing of inner beast for the spike damage, which is pretty predictable with near all boss fights.

yeah the enmity for lower level paladin is really a trouble, it come mostly by the lack of tool for generate enmity in AoE. without forget that Damage Dealer rarely give you room for land the first hit.
i'm sure a fair amount of tank did meet this sort of people that did make them dungeon a pain.

personally i don't use my paladin anymore for Dungeon because of this, warrior have more tool and in many way are more fun to play, mostly because it's not: 1. 2. 3. 1. 2. 3. ....
the paladin need more tool and more important more fun to be added, a new combo that is really usefull and some new tool can be more than welcome.
other point, i dunno for you, but for me the cross skill of the paladin are... well most of them have close of little utility or useless...

paladin definitivly need more love, not for be more powerfull in terms of damage or reduction of damage, but in terms of variety of the tool he can use in fight.

@sapphic: i will show you where people is mislead

the damage of the weapon from paladin and warrior, give the almost the same damage for the auto attack

curtana nexus : 40.98 dmg for the auto attack with a speed of 2.32, giving a dps of 17.663dmg
Bravura nexus: 60.77dmg for the auto attack with a speed of 3.44, giving a dps of 17.665dmg

paladin: oath of the shield increase by 50% the auto attack (and only the auto attack) and that all, we will not take in account the buff for the spike damage.
warrior: Maim, increase all the damage deal by the warrior for 20% + storm's eye that reduce the defense against slash by 10% leading to an increase of the whole damage of the warrior by 30%

now for the combo used as offtank, for the paladin it will be: fast blade (150)+ savage blade (200)+ rage of halone (260) = 610 potency
for the warrior it will be: heavy swing (150)+ maim (190)+ storm's eye (270) = 610 potency that are increase by 30%

and that where the warrior beat the paladin, because the auto attack at 150 potency for the paladin, can't beat the whole boost of 30% damage that are applicated to the damage he do.
ps: i will not talk of the spike damage, it's not needed, on this point, warrior can be really really strong.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

paladin definitivly need more love, not for be more powerfull in terms of damage or reduction of damage, but in terms of variety of the tool he can use in fight.

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Can't argue with that, as WAR feels a lot more involving. Maybe a combo that adds a debuff to the mob that heals people attacking it for a small amount.

Even though I don't have any problems holding enmity in low level dungeons as PLD, it is kinda dull XD Spam flash then just tab between mobs to check enmity and combo any that are getting high.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Can't argue with that, as WAR feels a lot more involving. Maybe a combo that adds a debuff to the mob that heals people attacking it for a small amount.

Even though I don't have any problems holding enmity in low level dungeons as PLD, it is kinda dull XD Spam flash then just tab between mobs to check enmity and combo any that are getting high.

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i don't find it hard, just can be a pain if the dps are too fast or burst too much. warrior offer more... tool and if you play it well loose the aggros it's simply your fault... even if the dps burst they will simply never get close of your enmity.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

it's true, that the spike damage, however, the warrior increase all him damage from 20% when the sword oath only increase auto attack damage by 50%. other point, warrior reduce defense against slashing damage by 10% and reduce the damage deal by the target of 10% as off tank the warrior is more powerfull by far and more interesting than the paladin. however, in terms of main tank, paladin is far better.

but seriously the paladin that try to say: "we can deal as much or more damage than the warrior" are simply clueless.

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I wish I could forget that PLD has Fight or Flight, which is the best offensive CD in the game.

30% extra damage, with zero penalty, and sixty seconds of downtime compared to the one hundred seconds of Blood for Blood or Raging Strikes. It also lasts ten seconds longer than the other damage boosts.

Oh, and it's also a lower cooldown than Berserk/Unchained. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

snips

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30% of damage more for 30 second against 50% of damage added for 20 second, if you want my mind, i still prefer berserk. without forget it's push the warrior at +80% of damage for 20 sec...when the paladin only get the auto attack to 180 potency while he get an increase of damage on the skill of 30%.

i do have both well equiped the dps in offtank of the warrior is far stronger than paladin and like i did said the warrior offer more tool usefull than paladin as offtank. but if you think about it, that normal, the paladin is the main tank, when the warrior is more suited for be the offtank, that don't means you can't do the inverse, only that both a better suited in this role.

Having both to 50 I can say this. 30 to 40 on Paladin was the worst. Shield Oath at the last ten levels is, well, goofy to put it politely. But I have to agree Circle of Scorn should have a threat generation sub ability. Doesn't make too much sense for Warrior to get Overpower plus Flash/Provoke and we get...? Exactly. Now I play my Paladin like I ought. I squeeze every single bit of effectiveness I can out of it but the toolkit for threat has got to be improved.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

misinformation

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This is a dead horse. It's already been mathed out and proven in the field. We've known this for a long time now.

MT WAR + OT PLD (Sword) > MT PLD + OT WAR (non-Defiance) - also assumes WAR is putting up Storm's Eye for both
MT WAR > MT PLD (damage)
2x WAR = lol
2x PLD = lol

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Originally Posted by Aleczan

That's awesome.!

Maybe I just had bad luck with Roulette and WAR tanks. One WAR pulled everything until the last room before first boss in Dzemael and died and rage quit on me while BRD said it was my fault. That and so many other unlucky instances with WAR tanks that became my Duty Finder nightmares.....

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God that happens to me in SV HM and I'm always like nope, I yell don't pull everything and they do it anyway and I panic and they die then want to get mad at me. Like bro you pulled like 3 rooms just now, ran and all I had time to do was throw a regen your way.

Long story short don't take it personal.

The fact that an OT PLD + MT WAR can deal more damage than the opposite configuration is irrelevant to this topic.

In dungeons, you only have one tank. In dungeons, there is no Storm's Eye debuff available for PLD. In dungeons, the vast majority of damage dealt to regular mobs should be AoE. PLD is clearly inferior to WAR in AoE damage as well as single-target boss damage.

However, you're just going to have to live with it. It's the same as melees complaining they can't match BLM AoE output. Not every class can be efficient at everything. If this game sees any more homogenization of classes for the sake of balance, I think I will cry. These jobs are similar enough already.