SMN BIS 2.3

So I haven't found anything about this so I figured I'd ask here. Have been wondering what is the SMN BIS gear?

BiS between 2.2 and 2.3 hasn't and wont change, without the introduction of any new i110 pieces none of the BiS lists have changed.
that said, the SMN BiS in particular is a hotly disputed topic, lot of people number crunching to find the best list (myself included) but they are all so close that its near impossible to give an absolute answer to which is the best outright.

This is arguably the BIS setup: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/N9A9

However, the bottom line is it doesn't really matter. I made what is probably considered the "worst in slot" setup (while maintaining ilvl110 and the acc cap): http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/N9A7. In the simulators the "worst in slot" setup is only a loss of 6.2 DPS (~1.5%)


Edit just for fun, this is the BIS while never stepping foot into SCoB (while maintaining the acc cap): http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/N9FI. In the simulators this is only a DPS loss of 13.2 (~3.2%)

Ok so Basically a crit build would b better was just wondering cuz I wasn't sure if a det build would b better or not I can't really do much testing myself cuz I'm on ps4 :)

Okay insert someone beating a dead horse or something, I just didn't wanna make a new thread.
So my alt joined a static as a sch, but it now seems I'll have to be the smn it's i93 and all, but I'm wondering which st pieces to go for, I have the sold pants and belt, rest of the left side is a mix between allagan and myth.

A nice option I am using on Summoner is after upgrading the Weathered Evenstar Ring of Casting, to just get another Weathered Evenstar Ring.

IMO it's probably better than the High Allagan Ring, although you lose 2 INT, you get 12 Crit (since Spell Speed is essentially worth 0 on Summoner), and it's a good option early on when you are needing that extra accuracy.

Judgment ring of casting should be better than High Allagan Ring, Has 17 crit and 9 det
http://xivdb.com/?item/8354/Judgment-Ring-of-Casting
As long as you meet the acc req in coil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sasdas

Judgment ring of casting should be better than High Allagan Ring, Has 17 crit and 9 det
http://xivdb.com/?item/8354/Judgment-Ring-of-Casting
As long as you meet the acc req in coil.

---

It is. I've long stated there are no full int builds that are best in slot. People on these forums claim they know but do not truly understand Determination for the summoner class. Many would be fast to show you builds that would trade 30+ det for 2 int and 5 crit or other ridiculous setups.

I have a question, could the novus/book of spades be better than the HA weapon? Yeah i know, 2 Magic damage points, but those 32 spell speed are horrible

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riyos

I have a question, could the novus/book of spades be better than the HA weapon? Yeah i know, 2 Magic damage points, but those 32 spell speed are horrible

---

The strength if your DoTs are stronger using a max Det novus or a book of spades then using a HA book.

However the overall strength of your spells like Ruins and Fester do "decrease". Reason for quotes is more the window of damage is greater on the lower end. You can still hit as high as the HA book with say a Fester but you can also hit lower more often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

The strength if your DoTs are stronger using a max Det novus or a book of spades then using a HA book.

However the overall strength of your spells like Ruins and Fester do "decrease". Reason for quotes is more the window of damage is greater on the lower end. You can still hit as high as the HA book with say a Fester but you can also hit lower more often.

---

Your assessment is incorrect.


Using theoretical BiS build of:

Build 1: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGQV for DET
Build 2: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGID for CRT

Bio's damage value per tick with Build 1 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 141.8901
Bio's damage value per tick with Build 2 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 142.5040

Bio II and Miasma's damage value per tick with Build 1 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 124.1538
Bio II and Miasma's damage value per tick with Build 2 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 124.6910

Fester's damage value with Build 1 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 1064.1758
Fester's damage value with Build 2 using the current damage formula including CRT + Maim and Mend 2: 1068.7805

If you factor in the difference in the Spell Speed difference as well, Build 2 will yield about 1.5% more damage than Build 1. That's also excluding the difference in Enhanced Pet actions procs, which in itself is harder to quantify.

I have a general summoner question. I have a summoner that I may eventually make my main DPS class. Besides the obvious intelligence, what is the second best stat? Is it determination? Or a combo of determination and crit?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riyos

I have a question, could the novus/book of spades be better than the HA weapon? Yeah i know, 2 Magic damage points, but those 32 spell speed are horrible

---

2 Magic Damage is worth like 72-100 Secondary Stats. (probably not exact, but it's a lot) - So it's definitely worth it compared to Book of Spades.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I have a general summoner question. I have a summoner that I may eventually make my main DPS class. Besides the obvious intelligence, what is the second best stat? Is it determination? Or a combo of determination and crit?

---

A combination of DET and CRIT while trying to get as little Spell Speed as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riyos

snip

---

Sadly, HA book is still better. The WD and the 46 crit outweight the stats you have with the Book of Spades/Novus

Let's give each of the books a "rating" based off stat weights Where 1 INT = 1 INT, 1 crit = .211 INT, 1 det = .283 INT, 1 SpS = .094 INT and 1 WD = 6.57 INT, formula I'll be using is INT + (crit*.211)+(det*.283)+(SpS*.094)+(WD*6.57) = rating

Book of Spades: 550.064
HA Book: 563.604

The +2 WD, +3 INT, +32 SpS and the +15 crit more then make up for the 31 det you lose (while yes Det is an important stat, keep in mind crits do increase your damage periodically. Imo it's an amazing stat and I love it

Here's my BiS btw. I made this at the beginning of 2.2 when accuracy caps were discovered and this list I cooked up has a perfect amount of accuracy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

It is. I've long stated there are no full int builds that are best in slot. People on these forums claim they know but do not truly understand Determination for the summoner class. Many would be fast to show you builds that would trade 30+ det for 2 int and 5 crit or other ridiculous setups.

---

the only time full int isn't best in slot is if you either use crafted gear or there is no accuracy cap (or a very low one like t5).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Uninstall

the only time full int isn't best in slot is if you either use crafted gear or there is no accuracy cap (or a very low one like t5).

---

This mentality is what has lead many astray and overall contribute to lower DPS for pretty much all classes. Determination is largely underestimated on these forums for those who claim to be experts and this is across the board on all the classes. This also leads people to questioning attainable numbers that people have did on several instances of coil on various classes and calling it "impossible" or "inflated", largely because people think that by pressing the BIS Solver on Ariyala.com, they are getting the optimal build for maximum DPS on there classes and simply cant fathom that others with slightly less STR or INT are pulling bigger numbers when they substitute for Determination.


For Summoner specifically, Det is an equally important stat as Crit but not less so. Stacking boundless amounts of Crit just because you can doesn't give you the best build. Thinking 2 Int is worth more then 40+ DET is horrendous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dwill

Your assessment is incorrect.

---

I'm gonna assume were playing the same game. I've personally tried both books on T6, T8 and striking dummies. The Book of Spades for me, seems to tick higher for each DoT on average then the HA Book. I can only contribute this to the amount of DET in between the books despite that one clearly has more *Magic Attack* and Intelligence. If two magic attack was such a decisive increase then by no means should 31 DET be even ticking on average similar numbers.

Also your builds are uneven, one is using food , one isnt. One is also substituting a large amount of Int for a spike in DET which is also largely uneven in comparison to your other build.

Simply keeping the same build and switch the books, will suffice. The shift should be 3INT + 2 MAttk(High Allagan Book) vs 31 DET (Either Novus or BoS) if your using the same to compare.

I don't' have where you are getting those numbers from. No one of any importance has ever claimed that 2 int is better than 40 det.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Uninstall

I don't' have where you are getting those numbers from. No one of any importance has ever claimed that 2 int is better than 40 det.

---

Most of the max int builds you will see on the forums will give up quite a heavy exchange of potential Det for the sake of keeping max int. Of course then there are some like yourself who would say max int is the way to go when that is not true when comparing the amount of Det you can gain by simply lowering 2 Int. According to builds on this forum 20-40 det is useless. On another note alot of people also assume you should be going Crit OR Det, when in actuality your builds for Summoner should be focused on Crit AND Det.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

For Summoner specifically, Det is an equally important stat as Crit but not less so. Stacking boundless amounts of Crit just because you can doesn't give you the best build. Thinking 2 Int is worth more then 40+ DET is horrendous.

---

Your numbers seem wildly inflated. Let's take the drop from them evenstar ring to judgment ring. That's 4 crit and 9 det for 2 int. How is that 40+? You are just grabbing those numbers from thin air.
Some of the scylla set have some more det on it but there's no real trade from the i110 gear since you can avoid SS with the i110 left side just fine. Don't get me wrong, I think the Ramuh ring is better than the other options as long as you can make acc cap but the difference is not nearly as large as you are making it out to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

I'm gonna assume were playing the same game. I've personally tried both books on T6, T8 and striking dummies. The Book of Spades for me, seems to tick higher for each DoT on average then the HA Book. I can only contribute this to the amount of DET in between the books despite that one clearly has more *Magic Attack* and Intelligence. If two magic attack was such a decisive increase then by no means should 31 DET be even ticking on average similar numbers.

---

So seems to be? You aren't sure? Also let's take for example that the books do give the same or comparable dot numbers. High Allagan is definitely going to have better ruins and festers. So High Allagan is better isn't it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

Also your builds are uneven, one is using food , one isnt. One is also substituting a large amount of Int for a spike in DET which is also largely uneven in comparison to your other build.

---

Dwill probably just forget to click it before pasting the build over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

Simply keeping the same build and switch the books, will suffice. The shift should be 3INT + 2 MAttk(High Allagan Book) + 32 spell speed + 14 Crit vs 31 DET (Either Novus or BoS) if your using the same to compare.

---

DET might have a strong weighting to damage and it is certainly better overall than the secondary stats you do gain from the switch; The 3 Int + secondary stats is about on par with the 31 DET you lose. However since it's an even shift of stats then you come out with +2 WD overall, which is better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

On another note alot of people also assume you should be going Crit OR Det, when in actuality your builds for Summoner should be focused on Crit AND Det.

---

All the builds assume this, they just decide which to focus on more heavily is all.

(Also calling it now, Shiva Ex will drop a Crit/Det book so it's better than HA!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seaku

snip

---

There's a lot of things you brought up so i'm gonna try to answer them individually.

1) Numbers aren't inflated. Users keep posting "BIS" builds with maximum Int, and recommending these to others. Many of these builds shift between each other but most do not seem to care much for DET at all. There are several builds at 2 less INT you can make that can give you 20-40+ DET overall depending on your starting point using a MAX INT build. I say 20-40 DET because people have posted various builds that start higher or lower on DET. But there was even user in this thread that posted a very low DET build for a maximum INT build and calls that BIS.

*Simply switching in, Judgement Ring of Casting is not the only thing you should do. I can also tell you there is no BIS builds that use the High Allagan Earrings of Casting. As good as these earrings seem to be, while attempting to make ACC cap, you will always come out with less preferable stats overall then if you made builds with the evenstar earring.

2) I am sure through in-game testing. Simple wording desparity but any summoner with both the HA Book and Book of Spades can test the same. I never stated the HA Book was not better overall, because it in fact is due to Festers and Ruin Spam, but that doesn't speak the whole truth in relation to DoT damage.

3) Whatever.

4) I agree with this overall assessment. The HA Book beats out the Book of Spades but not by a great amount. You need roughly 45 DET to overcome a 2 WD + 3INT boost. Book of Spades/Novus at 31 DET can't do this, but it also reflects that the DoT equation for determining damage done is different then overall spells. DET has a stronger impression on DoT strength then just INT or WD. If this was not so, DoTs under the Book of Spades would not tick as high or higher then a book of greater strength such as the HA Book.

* Thanks for the correction but I left out the extra Crit and Spell speed the HA book gives, because these two stats are not direct modifiers of damage like INT/DET or WD.

5) Well while some may focus on one over the other, these two stats should not be so dynamically shifted on there respective scales. What I mean by this is simply, your DET should not be near 250 because you want 550+ Crit. Crit largely becomes a mundane stat once you pass about 535 ish. Ive personally tested various builds where my crit fell anywhere from 507-570+. On average, I noticed no overwhelming DPS increase at going from 535 -> 570+ crit. What you would think "higher crit" = "critting more often", I would contest it doesn't seem to work that way in this game. There appears to be "soft caps" for crit and how much effectiveness you can pull from a build focusing on it purely. However I noticed that on the lower End closer to 535ish Crit, when supplementing those extra stat points into say, DET, you edge out much higher. You crit as often, and you do more damage, this purely reflects that SMN is meant to be CRIT/DET hybrids with one stat not overbearing the other.


PS: I kinda doubt it, only because we already have a 110 option of Crit /DET and the cap on DET seems to be 31 at i110.

Note that for this post I will be using the coefficients from http://ffxiv.ariyala.com (even though my testing has shown that crit should be weighted higher than this)
WP = 6.57
Int = 1
Crit = 0.211
Det = 0.283
SS = 0.094

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sasdas

Judgment ring of casting should be better than High Allagan Ring, Has 17 crit and 9 det
http://xivdb.com/?item/8354/Judgment-Ring-of-Casting
As long as you meet the acc req in coil.

---

This statement is totally correct.

2 int + 13 spell SS from HA = 3.2
17 crit + 9 det from Judgement ring = 6.1 (+2.9)

However now we need to focus on that last sentence "As long as you meet the acc req in coil." Any BIS build will be hovering right around the Acc cap, so we still need to figure out a way to make up the lost Acc from the HA ring.
Lets look at some possibilities...

Earrings (swap HA with Sold):
HA = 19 crit + 9 det = 6.6
Sold = 13 det = 3.7 (-2.9)

Boots (swap Sold with HA):
Sold = 25 crit + 18 SS = 7.0
HA = 18 crit = 3.8 (-3.2)

Wrist (swap Sold with HA):
Sold = 13 crit + 13 det = 6.4
HA = 13 crit = 2.7 (-3.7)

As you can see, any swap that you make will cancel out the gains from the judgement ring, with the boots or wrist swap actual being worse. Also not for someone like me who values crit more than http://ffxiv.ariyala.com, even the earring swap is worse.

For me, priority is
1. Acc cap for T9 or close
2. WD come first, then Int
3. Select i110 piece that give at least Crit or Det
(with this logic, only HA Ring is compromised by Ramuh ring)

All in all, I believe (ya, no proof) dps discrepancy is minimal in any variation of full ilvl 110.
So, my build is to maximize no. of HA piece to minimize Sands, Oil. (honestly I rather spend Allied Seals to awesome look GC geats <; ). Only Evenstar chest and Wrist are worth upgrading IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pacifist0rz

Note that for this post I will be using the coefficients from http://ffxiv.ariyala.com (even though my testing has shown that crit should be weighted higher than this)
WP = 6.57
Int = 1
Crit =0.211
Det = 0.283
SS = 0.094



This statement is totally correct.

2 int + 13 spell SS from HA = 3.2
17 crit + 9 det from Judgement ring = 6.1 (+2.9)

However now we need to focus on that last sentence "As long as you meet the acc req in coil." Any BIS build will be hovering right around the Acc cap, so we still need to figure out a way to make up the lost Acc from the HA ring.
Lets look at some possibilities...

Earrings (swap HA with Sold):
HA = 19 crit + 9 det = 6.6
Sold = 13 det = 3.7 (-2.9)

Boots (swap Sold with HA):
Sold = 25 crit + 18 SS = 7.0
HA = 18 crit = 3.8 (-3.2)
Wris (swap Sold with HA):
Sold = 13 crit + 13 det = 6.4
HA = 13 crit = 2.7 (-3.7)

As you can see, any swap that you make will cancel out the gains from the judgement ring, with the boots or wrist swap actual being worse. Also not for someone like me who values crit more than http://ffxiv.ariyala.com, even the earring swap is worse.

---

The thing about these stat weighs especially when spell speed comes into focus, is spell speed is largely useless on the class overall and more so atm due to the current bug with Pets & Enhanced Pet Actions.

Every time you cast Ruin 2 (which you should be for maximum DPS rotations prior to using Fester) and Bio (Refreshing a main DoT), Spell speed becomes more and more useless overall.

This makes swapping in some parts on the left side more beneficial for the sake of higher ACC. While the earrings are better on a direct comparison, comparing weighted gains from both, there is virtually no build you can make with those earrings that can't be outdone by another using the evenstar earrings when aiming to satisfy the current Coil Cap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pacifist0rz

Note that for this post I will be using the coefficients from http://ffxiv.ariyala.com (even though my testing has shown that crit should be weighted higher than this)

---

With the huge primary stats we gain in 2.2, CRT and DET are pretty much of equal value.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

I'm gonna assume were playing the same game. I've personally tried both books on T6, T8 and striking dummies. The Book of Spades for me, seems to tick higher for each DoT on average then the HA Book. I can only contribute this to the amount of DET in between the books despite that one clearly has more *Magic Attack* and Intelligence. If two magic attack was such a decisive increase then by no means should 31 DET be even ticking on average similar numbers.

Also your builds are uneven, one is using food , one isnt. One is also substituting a large amount of Int for a spike in DET which is also largely uneven in comparison to your other build.

Simply keeping the same build and switch the books, will suffice. The shift should be 3INT + 2 MAttk(High Allagan Book) vs 31 DET (Either Novus or BoS) if your using the same to compare.

---

I fixed the mistake with food in the first post and

Your second claim is not true either:

Even value CRT and DET Build 1 using full CRT and DET Novus: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGQV (Even CRT and DET build came out the exact same as DET oriented build in the first post due to how itemization is done).
Even value CRT and DET Build 2 using High Allagan: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGR0

Bio
(77*.2714745 + 576*.1006032 + (330-202)*.0241327 + 77*576*.0036167 + 77*(330-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (40/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 143.3877
(75*.2714745 + 573*.1006032 + (363-202)*.0241327 + 75*573*.0036167 + 75*(363-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (40/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 141.8901

Bio II and Miasma
(77*.2714745 + 576*.1006032 + (330-202)*.0241327 + 77*576*.0036167 + 77*(330-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (35/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 125.4643
(75*.2714745 + 573*.1006032 + (363-202)*.0241327 + 75*573*.0036167 + 75*(363-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (35/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 124.1538

Fester
(77*.2714745 + 576*.1006032 + (330-202)*.0241327 + 77*576*.0036167 + 77*(330-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (300/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 1075.4084
(75*.2714745 + 573*.1006032 + (363-202)*.0241327 + 75*573*.0036167 + 75*(363-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (300/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 535 - 18.437)/100) = 1064.1758

If you factor in the difference in the Spell Speed difference as well, Build 2 will yield about 1.5% more damage than Build 1. That's also excluding the difference in Enhanced Pet actions procs, which in itself is harder to quantify.

You are correct when saying that it is better to keep a balance between both CRT and DET but your theory of DoTs being stronger with a full DET/CRT Novus than High Allagan is still wrong, High Allagan is still better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

* Thanks for the correction but I left out the extra Crit and Spell speed the HA book gives, because these two stats are not direct modifiers of damage like INT/DET or WD.

---

CRT while not a direct damage stats is still a damage modifying stats which can be calculated to give an average damage value of an ability.

What does Ruin2 have anything to do with how spell speed is weighted? If anything, Ruin and Ruin2 are the primary reasons to translate the extra spell speed into damage. More SS=more Ruin/Ruin2 you can cast between having to recast DoTs. I also do not understand your argument with Bio.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zamii

BiS between 2.2 and 2.3 hasn't and wont change, without the introduction of any new i110 pieces none of the BiS lists have changed.

---

Didn't 2.3 add i90 crafted accessories, which when pentamelded can potentially be better than the i110 stuff? I know this is something that changed on the BiS list for BLM, so might change smn, too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dwill

With the huge primary stats we gain in 2.2, CRT and DET are pretty much of equal value.

---

Yep that is what I was trying to say with the part of my statement in (). http://ffxiv.ariyala.com has det being weighted higher than crit, but my testing shows that crit is actually slightly beter than det now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

Here's my BiS btw. I made this at the beginning of 2.2 when accuracy caps were discovered and this list I cooked up has a perfect amount of accuracy

---

I am not sure where your list came from, but the link below is the BIS build using your coefficients (which are the same as http://ffxiv.ariyala.com coefficients)

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/NGS1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

Thinking 2 Int is worth more then 40+ DET is horrendous.

---

Your statement is a massive exaggeration; no one anywhere is arguing that 2 int is better than 40 DET. 1 int is worth 3.5 det based on the http://ffxiv.ariyala.com coefficients. I am probably as anti-det as anyone comes, and my personal testing has shown it to be more like 1 int is worth ~6 det.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Uninstall

What does Ruin2 have anything to do with how spell speed is weighted? If anything, Ruin and Ruin2 are the primary reasons to translate the extra spell speed into damage. More SS=more Ruin/Ruin2 you can cast between having to recast DoTs. I also do not understand your argument with Bio.

---

On average assuming your playing optimally, you will always be able to cast 3-4 Ruin I per 10 seconds (Fester CD). You never will optimally be able to bend that to get even one more cast off for sure, and not hurt yourself elsewhere immensely.

Spell Speeds strongest strength is your ability to stand still and just cast non-stop without interruption, due to the fact that stacking spell speed allows you to break into previous casts earlier before actual completion of the skill. Since Bio and Ruin 2 are both instant skills, these don't break into a previous recast of something such as if you were to cast Bio with generally any skill with a cast time.

Playing optimally, you should be Ruin 2-ing before your Fester CD comes up and should be weaving in your Pet CDs between your Instant skills. Assuming your doing both, you will often find it hard to just constantly be spamming Ruin in between DoTs and actually performing optimally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

1) What bug with Pets & Enhanced Pet Actions?

2) Ruin II and Bio cast times are unaffected by SS, true, but more important is the fact that the GCD is reduced by SS. Shorter GCD means less time spent on refreshing dots (you get the dot re-applied more quickly, and then can go back to ruin/ruin II casting) and more ruins/ruin IIs being cast while DoTs are up.

Instant cast GCD abilities do not diminish the benefit of SS. The only time when Reduced Casting Time is more significant than Reduced Cooldown is when the casting time is greater than the cooldown or you have to move before the unmodified casting time would finish.

---

1) Previously the cast time of your pets skills was reduced when enhanced pet actions proc'd. On top of that many would say that the stats of your pet are that of when you first summon them, yet SS is not factored into this at all.

I also answered your second question prior to seeing your post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pacifist0rz

Your statement is a massive exaggeration; no one anywhere is arguing that 2 int is better than 40 DET. 1 int is worth 3.5 det based on the http://ffxiv.ariyala.com coefficients. I am probably as anti-det as anyone comes, and my personal testing has shown it to be more like 1 int is worth ~6 det.

---

No one is indeed arguing directly of this comparison. However, you are indirectly arguing it by not pursuing builds with 2 less INT and the weight of DET you can gain from these builds.

I also didn't mention it before but I also do feel Crit should be slightly higher then .211. I personally feel it's closer to .250ish. Certainly closer to the DET weight for sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

The thing about these stat weighs especially when spell speed comes into focus, is spell speed is largely useless on the class overall and more so atm due to the current bug with Pets & Enhanced Pet Actions.

Every time you cast Ruin 2 (which you should be for maximum DPS rotations prior to using Fester) and Bio (Refreshing a main DoT), Spell speed becomes more and more useless overall.

---

1) What bug with Pets & Enhanced Pet Actions?

2) Ruin II and Bio cast times are unaffected by SS, true, but more important is the fact that the GCD is reduced by SS. Shorter GCD means less time spent on refreshing dots (you get the dot re-applied more quickly, and then can go back to ruin/ruin II casting) and more ruins/ruin IIs being cast while DoTs are up.

Instant cast GCD abilities do not diminish the benefit of SS. The only time when Reduced Casting Time is more significant than Reduced Cooldown is when the casting time is greater than the cooldown or you have to move before the unmodified casting time would finish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

1) What bug with Pets & Enhanced Pet Actions?

2) Ruin II and Bio cast times are unaffected by SS, true, but more important is the fact that the GCD is reduced by SS. Shorter GCD means less time spent on refreshing dots (you get the dot re-applied more quickly, and then can go back to ruin/ruin II casting) and more ruins/ruin IIs being cast while DoTs are up.

Instant cast GCD abilities do not diminish the benefit of SS. The only time when Reduced Casting Time is more significant than Reduced Cooldown is when the casting time is greater than the cooldown or you have to move before the unmodified casting time would finish.

---

1) There is no Spell Speed bug. It was confirmed by the Square Enix that Spell Speed does not affect pet and that they don't have any plans to change that.
2) You would be correct on the whole thing here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Didn't 2.3 add i90 crafted accessories, which when pentamelded can potentially be better than the i110 stuff? I know this is something that changed on the BiS list for BLM, so might change smn, too.

---

Since BLM benefits really well from all 3 stats, the Intelligence lost can be compensated but for Summoners whose benefits from Spell Speed is relatively low, the gain we get from Pentamelding doesn't compensate the Intelligence lost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dwill

1) There is no Spell Speed bug. It was confirmed by the Square Enix that Spell Speed does not affect pet and that they don't have any plans to change that.

---

Looking further into this as of current, this was replaced with the current system. Previously, SS was factoring into pet skills and was detailed on the cooldowns the same. Whether is was fundamentally wrong initially or simply changed later, it is claimed to be working as intended now, despite still being an active bug being looked into according to the forums. ( but let's just call that laziness)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

2) Ruin II and Bio cast times are unaffected by SS, true, but more important is the fact that the GCD is reduced by SS. Shorter GCD means less time spent on refreshing dots (you get the dot re-applied more quickly, and then can go back to ruin/ruin II casting) and more ruins/ruin IIs being cast while DoTs are up.

Instant cast GCD abilities do not diminish the benefit of SS. The only time when Reduced Casting Time is more significant than Reduced Cooldown is when the casting time is greater than the cooldown or you have to move before the unmodified casting time would finish.

---

But you do not gain any significant casting boost by stacking SS on the class and even attempting to do so if you geared purely for SS, would only hurt you overall anyway. If you cannot fit in a full extra cast per 10 (Fester CD) seconds, your benefiting nothing from SS. Go as low as 350 SS or as high as 450, on average you will do less damage overall in builds supplying high amounts of SS, and still will not get an additional cast in per 10 seconds. If you want to take full advantage of what your saying you literally would do Bio2 ->Miasma -> Bio -> Ruin Spam till you have to recast your DoTs again.

If that's your rotation and your not weaving in Rouse, Spur, Enkindle, Ruin2 + Fester, you are already not in an optimal skill rotation. Weaving in these skills, will largely not even touch the GCD when done correctly (have you waiting for the GCD to come up). SS is near useless not because it's not working as intended, but because the way you should be playing the class doesn't benefit from it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

But you do not gain any significant casting boost by stacking SS on the class and even attempting to do so if you geared purely for SS, would only hurt you overall anyway. If you cannot fit in a full extra cast per 10 seconds, your benefiting nothing from SS. Go as low as 350 SS or as high as 450, on average you will do less damage overall in builds supplying high amounts of SS, and still will not get an additional cast in per 10 seconds. If you want to take full advantage of what your saying you literally would do Bio2 ->Miasma -> Bio -> Ruin Spam till you have to recast your DoTs again.

If that's your rotation and your not weaving in Rouse, Spur, Enkindle, Ruin2 + Fester, you are already not in an optimal skill rotation. Weaving in these skills, will largely not even touch the GCD when done correctly (have you waiting for the GCD to come up). SS is near useless not because it's not working as intended, but because the way you should be playing the class doesn't benefit from it.

---

Nobody's going to argue that stacking Spell Speed on Summoner is a terrible idea. But the stat itself isn't as useless as you make it out to be. Saying that amount of spells you can fit in 10 seconds is all good but you're not factoring in the fact that Spell Speed helps you reapply your DoTs faster after being affected by certain mechanics (Gaols in Titan Extreme or Scyla's Frozen Orb for examples) as well as helping you get off certain casts before you have to move, whether it's to avoid an AoE or while kiting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dwill

Nobody's going to argue that stacking Spell Speed on Summoner is a terrible idea. But the stat itself isn't as useless as you make it out to be. Saying that amount of spells you can fit in 10 seconds is all good but you're not factoring in the fact that Spell Speed helps you reapply your DoTs faster after being affected by certain mechanics (Gaols in Titan Extreme or Scyla's Frozen Orb for examples) as well as helping you get off certain casts before you have to move, whether it's to avoid an AoE or while kiting.

---

Because most of these fights are scripted, you should in fact memorize when to clip some Dots on certain fights right before unavoidable moments, (Goals or Meteor Streams) in T9 is a good example. If timed appropriately you will rarely run into the moments you describe. Im fairly sure a majority of summoners only use Swiftcast for shadow flare and ressing as well. Not many think to use it when reapplying DoTs in the exact scenarios you describe. Yes it reduces Casting time of Bio2 -> Miasma and that's really all it does.

On an off note, with my current build I sit at 404 SS. I pretty much have a static rotation of skills on T9 and honestly when I've went as low as about 360ish or as high as 450ish, I've never noticed any difference of what I was able to achieve on my casts in accordance to the timing of the fight.

Moments such as when YanderePrincess is describing, more running into the GCD (waiting for it) to cast you next skill, should in general not happen as majority of the time, if not all the time, you should burn an OFF GCD skill while you wait so that when your finished with the animation of that skill, your GCD is already up. Basically buffering.

Going to agree with Havenchild on the SS part. Not only is the Weight of SS super low for Summoner, but because optimizing damage includes micro-managing the pet during Recast times, anything that shortens that window is bad for Summoner.
Not including Summoners instant cast skills as well, that while are off GCD still have an animation delay+the time it takes a player to use them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

Because most of these fights are scripted, you should in fact memorize when to clip some Dots on certain fights right before unavoidable moments, (Goals or Meteor Streams) in T9 is a good example. If timed appropriately you will rarely run into the moments you describe. Im fairly sure a majority of summoners only use Swiftcast for shadow flare and ressing as well. Not many think to use it when reapplying DoTs in the exact scenarios you describe. Yes it reduces Casting time of Bio2 -> Miasma and that's really all it does.

On an off note, with my current build I sit at 404 SS. I pretty much have a static rotation of skills on T9 and honestly when I've went as low as about 360ish or as high as 450ish, I've never noticed any difference of what I was able to achieve on my casts in accordance to the timing of the fight.

Moments such as when YanderePrincess is describing, more running into the GCD (waiting for it) to cast you next skill, should in general not happen as majority of the time, if not all the time, you should burn an OFF GCD skill while you wait so that when your finished with the animation of that skill, your GCD is already up. Basically buffering.

---

I agree to a degree but there are and will always be a time where clipping will not be an option or where a mechanic will choose you randomly. Not saying these moments are a common thing but they do happen once every so often and that's where Spell Speed is mildly useful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dwill

I agree to a degree but there are and will always be a time where clipping will not be an option or where a mechanic will choose you randomly. Not saying these moments are a common thing but they do happen once every so often and that's where Spell Speed is mildly useful.

---

Please elighten me on what fight in coil that happens in, cause bis is for coil not dngs, st, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

But you do not gain any significant casting boost by stacking SS on the class

---

Oh, I understand that completely. There is too much of SMN's damage that is almost entirely unaffected by SS (there's a very -very- tiny effect on DoT spells, but it's just a matter of being able to get your initial application of DoTs onto the target a fraction of a second faster and is thus negligible at best, and depending on how exactly DoT application works, completely irrelevant at worst).

My point was simply the fact that Ruin II and Bio being instant-cast has no bearing on the weight of spell speed, because what matters from SS is primarily the lower GCD, not the lower casting time. If what you had said about Ruin II and Bio were true, then Firestarter procs and Thundercloud procs on BLM would also significantly diminish the benefit of SS, but they don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

Moments such as when YanderePrincess is describing, more running into the GCD (waiting for it) to cast you next skill, should in general not happen as majority of the time, if not all the time, you should burn an OFF GCD skill while you wait so that when your finished with the animation of that skill, your GCD is already up. Basically buffering.

---

Weaving OGCD abilities in after instant-cast spells really has nothing to do with the value of SS. OGCD abilities, except for Dragoon's Jump/Spineshatter Dive/Dragonfire Dive and Monk's Shoulder Tackle, only take about .5s to go off, regardless of animation. After that, you can simply clip the animation as you begin your next spell if your GCD is up. Likewise, you can clip the animation of your instant cast spells with the animation from OGCD abilities. All-in-all, even if you had enough SS to drop your GCD to 1.5s, you shouldn't lose anytime on using an OGCD in between an Instant-Cast spell and your next spell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Weaving OGCD abilities in after instant-cast spells really has nothing to do with the value of SS. OGCD abilities, except for Dragoon's Jump/Spineshatter Dive/Dragonfire Dive and Monk's Shoulder Tackle, only take about .5s to go off, regardless of animation. After that, you can simply clip the animation as you begin your next spell if your GCD is up. Likewise, you can clip the animation of your instant cast spells with the animation from OGCD abilities. All-in-all, even if you had enough SS to drop your GCD to 1.5s, you shouldn't lose anytime on using an OGCD in between an Instant-Cast spell and your next spell.

---

Yes, but you have to consider micro managing your pet on top of OGCD abilities. Any loss in using a GCD skill from shortening the Recast time is wasted damage. (Fester+Contagion, Rouse/Spur Aerial Slash, Bane)

Spell Speed is completely counter productive to SMN design and is a terrible stat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Please elighten me on what fight in coil that happens in, cause bis is for coil not dngs, st, etc.

---

Breaking Vines in T6 and Cursed Shriek in T7 are examples.

And BiS, while obviously most helpful in raids (considering you actually need to raid to obtain it) is for everything.