Here ya go, proof that Ogre can be killed without archer burn. Our setup was GLD GLD THM CON CON PUG PUG ARC. We don't run away from any tp moves, ever. Only the ARC uses ranged attack. It's really very simple, anyone could do it if they're competent enough.
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/..._40_06_381.jpg
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/..._40_06_381.jpg
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/..._42_46_921.jpg
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/..._44_22_679.jpg
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/..._45_37_120.jpg
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/..._46_26_507.jpg
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/..._46_36_637.jpg
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/..._47_04_622.jpg
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/..._47_52_120.jpg
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/..._47_57_247.jpg
http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/..._48_09_804.jpg
As promised: PICS
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07-25-2011, 06:26 AMMeowyWowieAs promised: PICS
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07-25-2011, 06:36 AMRaikkiApparently hardcore people use Goldsmith tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
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07-25-2011, 06:39 AMMeowyWowieDamn right!Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikki
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07-25-2011, 06:39 AMRaze
in before "But I can't do it so make it easier"
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07-25-2011, 06:41 AMviion
but i cant do it so make it easier
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07-25-2011, 06:44 AMMadruk
We replaced an archer with a pug once.
Baby steps. -
07-25-2011, 06:45 AMAistaraina
Did we really need proof? No shit it's possible. People just can't adapt to the new play style so they QQ everywhere.
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07-25-2011, 06:46 AMArcell
Could you offer any tips? Been at it for a while, able to get it pretty low but something inevitably gets us near the end. Not looking for a super ridiculously in-depth guide, just some tips that may help when not using Archers lol.
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07-25-2011, 06:47 AMDemaciaThis. Scrubs be cryin'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aistaraina
Having way more fun with the game now than I ever have. -
07-25-2011, 06:47 AMzaviermhigo
I knew Pug could do it lol off tank, evasion abilities. I wonder if a lnc or mrd can do it successfully.
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07-25-2011, 06:49 AMRaikkiWhat's been getting you? Running out of MP, Inferno Drop, heals not covering the damage output, etc.?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcell
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07-25-2011, 06:49 AMVerecund
As usual, people are completely missing the whole point of the archer/conj rage issue.
As long as fights do not specifically account for over-stacked parties, it will result in not only class issues but also potential and utter trivialization of content. It should'nt be met with nerfs or buffs per se - it should be met with solid design. -
07-25-2011, 06:55 AMMeowyWowieApparently some people did, only reason I posted the pics. It's no harder than an ARC setup, just takes smart players and cooperation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aistaraina
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07-25-2011, 06:57 AMPhysicThe point isnt that its impossible, the question is who does it easier, and to be honest it still a problem that they made content that seems to absolutely require 1 gld, 2 con, and reccomend archer DD. and another gld.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
the real point is, pug requires a higher level of skill and risk to succeed correct? and what beneifit, utility or DD do you get for that increased skill, and risk?
If the answer is none, or you actually lose a bit of dps, then people will make their shouts and parties around not having people other than archer.
just like in ffxi, yeah you can do things with many party set ups, but that doesnt mean that most teams will allow you to, if doing it some other way is noticeably easier, or faster.
Its still a problem. -
07-25-2011, 06:58 AMRaze
Sorry but Meowy probably cut off about 5 more waah ARC only threads. Every job is useful if you can play it.
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07-25-2011, 06:59 AMJBFire
I don't believe the argument was ever that it wasn't possible.
The argument that seems to be abound is that it is inherently easier for parties to stack archers for cleaner kills. This situation is thus leaving others out in the cold because they are not playing A) Archer, B) Gladiator or C) Conjurer.
I'm glad to see community members going out and breaking out of the mold though. It is vastly more exciting to see people playing a variety of classes rather than stacking a multiples of one or two and excluding others. Sometimes it just takes the ability to put the big boy pants on and work on a new strategy to complete something differently.
Yes, you may have had to work a bit harder than a group stacking archers, but you know what? You did it. You should be choosing your class because you like that class, not because you feel it's the easiest way to do something. If you want to run a group of GLA/GLA/LNC/PUG/CON/CON/THM/MRD, then go for it! Yeah, you might have to teach people to run out of an AoE and your kill might take 2 minutes longer to do and your healers might end the fight with 200 less MP than the all archer group (I'm strictly pulling numbers out of my rear-end here, but the idea is the important part), but you still CAN go kill these monsters.
I'd much rather be part of a well executed victory than stacking my team and pulling out a single way to victory every time. (No offense archer-teams. You have a completely legit strategy.) -
07-25-2011, 07:00 AMMeowyWowieIt's easy as hell once you figure it out. That's the problem, people are just too freakin lazy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
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07-25-2011, 07:02 AMMeowyWowieThis x10000000Quote:
Originally Posted by JBFire
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07-25-2011, 07:08 AMJennestiaActually you do need proof when someone says "pics or it didn't happen" -- it generally shuts the trolls up or they try hard to counter the proof to no avail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aistaraina
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07-25-2011, 07:11 AMRazeThank you for clearing that up, this is no brag post, we mentioned with strategy it's quite simple really, it's just a bit of proof that melee DDs can play too, since we were explicitly told otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennestia
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07-25-2011, 07:12 AMJennestiaNo matter how you design it, players will find a way to "trivialize" it, unless developers found some way to counter this, but considering I've played all of the beta/recently released MMOs of this year, doesn't seem like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Verecund
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07-25-2011, 07:16 AMSeirra_LanzceThere.. fix'ed linksQuote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
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07-25-2011, 07:19 AMMeowyWowieThanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Seirra_Lanzce
How did you fix them? I'd like to update main post, if you'd be so kind :) -
07-25-2011, 07:20 AMSeirra_LanzceDunno bout lancer, to me Lancer is more to debuff+DD than tanking.... ._.Quote:
Originally Posted by zaviermhigo
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07-25-2011, 07:23 AMMeowyWowie
Any Melee class can do this fight. Don't even really need a 2nd tank, but it helps. One mistake could spell disaster. It just so happened that we had 2 PUGs, that's all.
Edit: Only people with hate the entire fight were our tanks too, everyone else watches their hate meters and don't pull aggro. -
07-25-2011, 07:24 AMSeirra_Lanzce[ img]link.jpg[ /img]Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
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07-25-2011, 07:25 AMSigtyr
That's fantastic.
Now, were you able to complete the dungeon, or did you run out of time? -
07-25-2011, 07:28 AMRaze
Uhhh if you mean did we complete the quest, yes. If you mean the final boss, he's the next adventure.
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07-25-2011, 07:29 AMEclypse
Cmon, lets go kill this negro puff again!!!
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07-25-2011, 07:31 AMMeowyWowieThank You ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Seirra_Lanzce
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07-25-2011, 07:32 AMMeowyWowie
We're taking some time to farm chests and ogre before we really attempt last boss. We're in no rush, plenty of time before 1.19 releases.
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07-25-2011, 07:46 AMChizI think the bolded part is the problem people have issue with, there's much smaller margin for error and exponential increase in chances for that one disastrous mistake to occur as you continue to add more melee around the Ogre. If you use Archers and mages only, there is virtually no chance for anyone other than the tank(s) to incur the wrath of any such mistakes. Basically the risk vs. reward trade-off heavily favors a ranged party composition to the point it eliminates any actual choice or alternative strategy, especially for groups that are struggling with it and trying to beat it for the first time.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
We beat the Ogre with a melee or two but there's little doubt in my mind an all ranged group would've done it faster and cleaner with less risk, far greater margin of error. For those having trouble and want a tip in the right direction:Just have your melee follow the same path as the mages on transition, then set up directly to the side of the Ogre once its settled in. That will prevent triggering Elbow Smash and avoid the front conal range of Fire Spit. Still need to avoid or stun Inferno Drop though. -
07-25-2011, 07:52 AMMeowyWowieI was implying that 2 tanks are safer than one. There's really not a big difference between melee and archer parties. A "disaster" scenario would be if the (only) tank died. You're screwed no matter what your setup is in that case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiz
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07-25-2011, 08:21 AMChizAh I see. I'd say having multiple melee sponging damage or dying would ultimately lead to the same disastrous result, which I think is the biggest problem people are facing with the Ogre currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
I completely disagree though about there not being a big difference between melee and archer parties though, one group composition has minimal risk, the other increases risk exponentially with each member in harms way. Sure its possible for experienced melee players to avoid triggering and taking AoE damage but that doesn't negate the fact ranged attackers can avoid taking the risk completely. -
07-25-2011, 06:04 PMKarbine
Show me one MMO where its the same difficulty every fight with all class setups.
You are going to be able to do things easier in some fights with certain classes than others thats just the way it is. As long as you can do it with relative planning and strategy with other class setups I fail to see the problem. Especially when people are complaining day one that they can' t win. -
07-25-2011, 08:15 PMVahzl
We were doing it fine last night, with only 1 archer and 4 mages.
Would have beaten it too if it wasn't for my internet exploding, leaving us down a DD and back up healer. -
07-25-2011, 08:18 PMMalakhim
Wait, so people are bitching about them taking FFXIV off easy mode?
...Does not compute. Last night was my first Toto-rak run, and we got our asses handed to us by that black diremite boss, and damnit we thought it was the most epic thing ever.
Also, looks like those hate meters are useful, huh? -
07-25-2011, 08:42 PMPreypacerNice.... LNC in one video and PUG in these screenshots.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
Perhaps for once I can go to a fight like this and not be told "sorry, you're the wrong class. You have to level "class here" if you want to be useful." -
07-25-2011, 08:47 PMRazeI think I saw a post where I guy tanked the ogre pretty effectively as a MRD. Anyone who turns down a DD because they're not the "right type" of DD on fights like this is just looking for canned corn, don't waste your time with them ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
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07-25-2011, 09:02 PMPreypacerIndeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raze
Some people really just get stuck in their own way of thinking and refuse to accept any other alternative. So, it's good that there's at least 2 proven methods to taking the thing down, with more class choices being viable between them.
It just makes it really aggravating to try and participate in a game when people are outright refusing anything that isn't listed as "useful" on their wiki guide.
In FFXI once, I was playing DRG as my main (love that job, don't care how much it was ragged on). A friend of mine was in a colibri party out in Aht Urghan, and asked if I wanted to join. I said sure! They asked, in party chat, if I could join. The leader asked what job (I was DRG/SAM). When my friend told him, he flat out said "lolDRG {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass}". My friend explained that they were fighting birds... DRG use polearms with piercing damage... piercing damage is great against birds". The leader said "I don't care. He's a DRG. Get me any other Job with a polearm and fine. But not lolDRG". The rest of the party members ripped into him for being a closed-minded ass, and he ended up inviting me.
Upon entering the party, the first thing the guy says is, "Don't get comfortable. The moment you show you can't put out good DPS, you're being replaced".
Not only was I not replaced, but by the time I left the party he had a very different opinion of DRGs. He would actually invite me every time he could after that.
Now, that's not a story to indicate "how awesome I was on DRG". I was as good as any DRG who knows how to play their job well could be in that situation. It's more about how closed minded and willfully ignorant people can be, to their own detriment even.
Anyway.... I hope something like people finding alternate ways to beat the ogre can be repeated in other fights going forward so maybe there won't be people having to deal with the whole "wrong class" BS again.