Wonder if anyone here feels this way?

So I was searching some forums on other MMO list sites. I found this and read and well it does make some sense. So was wondering what you all thought.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/03...t-ever-happen/

I agree. MMOs have been at a weird stage for a while where they still technically still have large interactive online worlds and economies but they're designed for people who want to skip all that pesky open world business and get to "the good stuff" as quickly as possible. "The good stuff" being repeating a small series of instances indefinitely until the next patch where you get to do it all over again with 5% better equipment and 5% tougher mobs.

WoW, the game that really kicked off the current theme park MMO trend, even sells max level characters now, if that's any indication of how completely meaningless the journey has become in the modern them park setting.

Totally agree with him. Everquest had it's flaws, don't get me wrong, but games like it and FFXI where the leveling was slower and group based were much better IMO than those that are coming out today with everything being solo leveling via quests. Everyone is in such a big rush these days and it makes me a little sad.

A lot of the people who are too casual for endgame in modern MMOs were too casual for any aspect of earlier MMOs. Currently, people complain if they have to wait 5 minutes, or heaven forbid have to run for longer than 5 minutes to get somewhere in the 'world'. Early MMOs were considered very newbie/casual unfriendly. The endgame is this game is easier and more casual than just basic leveling was in FF11. People complain about 15 minute queues for dungeon. Ha, that was the wait time just to use the airship - I won't get into the potential party wait times.

I think this game does a good job of introducing people to "endgame" relative to other MMOs. I mean, we do regular Ifrit at like Lv20, and really, the 1-50 game is instances that really aren't so different from things like Coil. The only real change at "endgame" in this game is parties going from 4 person to 8 person for serious content. Its not as jarring as going from 5 person groups to 40 person groups.

This is a good article, but a tad too emotional against raiding. Which I understand and actually agree a bit.

ARR only has leveling to slowly introduce new techniques and make you used to the role you chose to follow. It's a tutorial for the theme park we have on our "endgame", where the real level is the ilvl.

We can argue for many pages about how much the whole other side of the spectrum, of enjoying "living" in the game world, was directly and/or indirectly prejudiced by the theme-park agenda. We're still getting steady updates on the other fronts, though.

Im going to give that a solid YES.

i have to say i completely agree with the ease of leveling and being able to jump into endgame almost as soon as you sign into your character originally being the start of the decline of the genre. my problem isn't endgame, per se, but the severe lack of variety to it. in most current generation games a mmo has become a glorified lobby experience and they have gotten old quickly. i miss the days of actually going out and adventuring with others in a huge open world where strong monsters you had to group and kill were out there. now everything important is instanced and everything else is just an afterthought.

From the moment you set foot into the online world you should be "end game"

The journey should be exciting at all times, not the destination. I mean we can live with milestones, but there's so many times in online games where they just can't get it right, you hit odd plateaus where exp doesn't come in quickly anymore but you're locked out from anything exciting and you feel underwhelming, or you level so fast you make all content meaningless until you cap.

MMO's are a stale genre until some change comes in. I honestly believe that the market itself has finally hit a saturation point and thankfully what we will see now is gamers leaving in frustration over repeating the same things for the last 15 years and developers forced to really push the envelope and re-imagine the genre once again.

Personally, I had a ton of fun with Asheron's Call back in the day because it was a game that had immense levels and no real loot table so to speak, it was fun to actually monster hunt and see what you could get off high end monsters. It was less about the need to hit a cap and just a desire to explore and challenge yourself.

The irony or the internet is that it made games like MMO's possible, but also ruined them, how many of you can say you do all content without once looking up online for the strategies/answers? That's including the ones you play with.

Here's a post worth reading which I found on WoW forums some time ago, and it pretty much sums up how I feel about MMO genre nowadays (unfortunately):

Yeah, this is definitely no longer the amazing game I used to play before. There's just no adventure or purpose to it, instead of structuring the game and quests as they once did, now it's all about gearing/leveling as fast as possible, consuming the content as fast as possible, and making everything as easy as possible for everyone, then using the old "Well you have HC mode if you find it too easy" excuse to shut people up.

The problem is they are making objectives of things to do rather then letting us live a life in the world... I prefer crafting and think that it is garbage I can't craft better gear then I can raid... If you can get your crafts to 50 maybe you should be able to make that special object to make that special outfit that cant be sold and is better then dungeon gear...

I miss the ol' Star Wars Galaxies. It wasn't as sandbox as some other games, but it also wasn't "rush to max level, raid for a week, and then bitch for 3 months about there being no content"

The game doesn't need to be a total sandbox, but for the love of god I play a MMO to play in a world.

Not wait in line in ques.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The game doesn't need to be a total sandbox, but for the love of god I play a MMO to play in a world.

Not wait in line in ques.

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Very well put.

Games once upon a time - Aww, I beat the game, what a beautiful adventure and epic story! Man I wish I could play it from the beginning not knowing anything from scratch just to be able to re-live it!

Games nowadays - YES!!! I beat the game now I can start it!!!! Farming here I come!

I have about 15 years of MMO experience now, and this article did a good job of spelling out the design gripes I have had in mind for years.

There is, or was something special about MMOs. This sensation of having a virtual world to run around in, as whoever you wanted to be in that world.

But that sensation vanished with the release of WOW, and people dropping the RPG from MMORPG. Where as in EQ, I logged in each day and decided for myself where I was going to go and do, In WOW people are just lead around by the nose.

The old EverQuest raids were incredible. These new games have it all messed up. Raids were amazing not for the loot, but for the crazy server event of getting 60+ people together to go attack a dragon. Even if you failed horribly, it's a memory you will never forget.

Today you do a raid, and the games funnel you into a specific (small) number of players, and the fights are all tweaked to be difficult for that exact number of players. And there's always highly valuable loot to be had.

And yes, the leveling portion of the game doesn't even make sense either. Why force players to work their way through XX number of levels, only to completely shift gears on them?

Back in the original days of EverQuest, the level 1-50 game WAS the game. Getting to 50 just meant you were 50 levels of success, and one of the most powerful guys around. It didn't mean you needed to suddenly gear up and start doing raids. Raids were a cool activity, but not the primary focus. It just ended up being popular, so they added tons of more raids over time.

But as this article explained. It was really WOW that turned the concept of raiding into some kind of true end-game player trap.

How is having something to do when you're "finished" with the "plot" of the game and hit level cap a bad thing?

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Originally Posted by Penguinmayhem

How is having something to do when you're "finished" with the "plot" of the game and hit level cap a bad thing?

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When it becomes the central focus.

Meh, I've played sandbox MMO's and I just get bored with them within a month.

I honestly prefer this current style we have. As a gamer, it's just a preference thing.

It's not really the developer's fault so much as the players, when you go into your first MMO blind you have fun just exploring and working things out. You don't have this concept of endgame until you've gained that experience and settle in. But once you've gained that experience you can't really have it again. If you go to another MMO you know the drill, get max level and unlock all the stuff at the end. Now that MMO's have established quite a following everyone pretty much already has that experience so the devs want to cater to that crowd. The ones who already did all the grindy stuff on a previous MMO and just want to skip having to do it again and get to the end game of the new game they're playing.

If they can't do that they'll get bored and quit.

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Originally Posted by Codek

Meh, I've played sandbox MMO's and I just get bored with them within a month.

I honestly prefer this current style we have. As a gamer, it's just a preference thing.

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Same here. I prefer some kind of structure to my video games, not just "here's a world, go do stuff!" Without the game giving me goals to accomplish I get bored quickly.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Why can't we have both?

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Because the sandbox-lovers immediately start the wailing and gnashing of teeth as soon as they see a quest indicator over an NPC's head? I personally love quests, and I also love being able to tell which NPCs will give me one without having to talk to them and hear their life story first, but apparently some people think that a quest indicator is the most horrible thing in the world and that players should be forced to talk to each and every NPC to find them. That's just one example of why we can't have both. The list goes on: minimaps, regular maps, tutorials, etc. There's plenty of stuff a person like me considers to be essential that someone who likes immersive sandbox games considers to be anathema.

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

Same here. I prefer some kind of structure to my video games, not just "here's a world, go do stuff!" Without the game giving me goals to accomplish I get bored quickly.

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Why can't we have both?

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Totally agree with him. Everquest had it's flaws, don't get me wrong, but games like it and FFXI where the leveling was slower and group based were much better IMO than those that are coming out today with everything being solo leveling via quests. Everyone is in such a big rush these days and it makes me a little sad.

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A big rush these days yep that be the so called hardcore players they wan't everything out fast fast fast they wan't gear fast but then once they got everything they want. The games boring and they quit in this day in age ppl want everything too big so big and endless that they never run out of things to do but how many games can offer that? wow messed everything up with the bigger than life mmo as now if a games not as big as wow it's junk or it's to small but try to be a lil like wow then it's a wow clone gaming is sad :P sorry i know my ENG is ugly if you can't read my post just don't bother with it thank you

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Originally Posted by Mogi

A big rush these days yep that be the so called hardcore players they wan't everything out fast fast fast they wan't gear fast but then once they got everything they want. The games boring and they quit in this day in age ppl want everything too big so big and endless that they never run out of things to do but how many games can offer that? wow messed everything up with the bigger than life mmo as now if a games not as big as wow it's junk or it's to small but try to be a lil like wow then it's a wow clone gaming is sad :P sorry i know my ENG is ugly if you can't read my post just don't bother with it thank you

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in your mind this may be true, but the truth is you couldn't be farther from the truth. that hardcore players want long term goals and stuff you have to work towards. the casuals are the me me generation and want everything handed to them with zero effort put into getting it.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

the casuals are the me me generation and want everything handed to them with zero effort put into getting it.

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It's not that casuals don't want to have to work at something, they just don't want to have to spend several hours a day playing in order to accomplish a goal within a reasonable time frame. Like it or not, casual players are a larger proportion of the gaming population than hardcore players, so any game that wants to be financially successful will cater to this "I want to be able to do all the content, but I can only play for 1-2 hours every couple of days" type of person. Whether they should cater to these people is another topic. The truth is that they do.

Disclaimer: I am a proud no-life elitist etc. etc. but I understand where casuals are coming from.

I added this to my earlier post as well, but just in case:

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Why can't we have both?

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Because the sandbox-lovers immediately start the wailing and gnashing of teeth as soon as they see a quest indicator over an NPC's head? I personally love quests, and I also love being able to tell which NPCs will give me one without having to talk to them and hear their life story first, but apparently some people think that a quest indicator is the most horrible thing in the world and that players should be forced to talk to each and every NPC to find them. That's just one example of why we can't have both. The list goes on: minimaps, regular maps, tutorials, etc. There's plenty of stuff a person like me considers to be essential that someone who likes immersive sandbox games considers to be anathema.

This was a few days back.

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

It's not that casuals don't want to have to work at something, they just don't want to have to spend several hours a day playing in order to accomplish a goal within a reasonable time frame. Like it or not, casual players are a larger proportion of the gaming population than hardcore players, so any game that wants to be financially successful will cater to this "I want to be able to do all the content, but I can only play for 1-2 hours every couple of days" type of person. Whether they should cater to these people is another topic. The truth is that they do.

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oh i know. i just wanted to use the complete extreme to point out the fallacy of the person i had quoted.

my point is i am pretty much a hardcore player myself, but i do have a job. what i want is enough stuff and it to not be locked to where if i have 2 days off in a row i can sit and actually play the game i am paying to play. i don't want to be locked out of content completely because i've already done it once for the week. what this game needs is a combination of content where there is some content the hardcores can run over and over, some open world content that everyone can challenge, and some casual type content that is challenging and they get rewards for that type as well.

The most sandbox game that I could tolerate was fallout 3. That's why I could never get into and understand the hype about games like minecraft. I found it numbskullingly boring with graphics from the ps1 era. But I feel what we have in ff14 is an incredibly beautiful world that promotes no exploration whatsoever. All the time and effort taken to produce it has gone to waste. Take for example there is an area called hermit grovel in ff14. If you went there you would expect maybe an old man with an interesting backstory that might start a quest about how he became a hermit. It can be made to not even show up on the world map as a quest to encourage people to explore every nook and cranny of this amazing world. But no, all we have is an empty house with no npc whatsoever. A structured gameplay is good but having some open world to immerse yourself into can't be a bad thing.

Back in FFXI, there were already issues in getting people to do things that don't give "phat lootz".
Try getting people to kill Jormungand for the "heck of it" in its heyday...or even Vrtra. Everyone was pretty much just fixated on Tiamat.

I blame the gear and mobs.

No one wants to wear rags until they can finally get some good stuff (end game).
No one wants to kill little birds and pumpkins for the entirety of leveling.

That may not apply so much to ff14 but it does to many other games I have played that have an endgame.

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Originally Posted by tymora

Back in FFXI, there were already issues in getting people to do things that don't give "phat lootz".
Try getting people to kill Jormungand for the "heck of it" in its heyday...or even Vrtra. Everyone was pretty much just fixated on Tiamat.

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how's that any different than now where people don't want to take the time to help with things like hydra or chimera?

all i'm saying is there needs to be a variety of content. the more variety and ways to upgrade your character the more people you have happy with the game.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

oh i know. i just wanted to use the complete extreme to point out the fallacy of the person i had quoted.

my point is i am pretty much a hardcore player myself, but i do have a job. what i want is enough stuff and it to not be locked to where if i have 2 days off in a row i can sit and actually play the game i am paying to play. i don't want to be locked out of content completely because i've already done it once for the week. what this game needs is a combination of content where there is some content the hardcores can run over and over, some open world content that everyone can challenge, and some casual type content that is challenging and they get rewards for that type as well.

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I actually consider stuff like Coil to be casual approach to end-game. Cos every time you do it you're somewhat progressing; be it getting drops, gaining experience of the fight, tomes that you could accumulate to trade for gear, etc. What I consider hardcore end-gaming is camping HNMs for gear, and are designed for people who have the time to commit to it. Each time you camp you might not progress at all. My definition of hardcore is just people who have more time and/or are more devoted to the game. So in turn they could get some more tedious stuff to work on and for show.

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

Because the sandbox-lovers immediately start the wailing and gnashing of teeth as soon as they see a quest indicator over an NPC's head? I personally love quests, and I also love being able to tell which NPCs will give me one without having to talk to them and hear their life story first, but apparently some people think that a quest indicator is the most horrible thing in the world and that players should be forced to talk to each and every NPC to find them. That's just one example of why we can't have both. The list goes on: minimaps, regular maps, tutorials, etc. There's plenty of stuff a person like me considers to be essential that someone who likes immersive sandbox games considers to be anathema.

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Well, as a sandbox lover, I can tell you that personally, while I might wish for a game to have more obscurity in many places, forcing players to actually involve themselves in the world, I wouldn't demand Square remove quest markers or tutorials. I would however like to make them toggle-able/skip-able. And add other features that don't need to remove modern amenities such as horizontal progression and open world interactive quests (more than just picking up random glitter ridden items off the side of the road).

That aside, simply assuming we want all that abolished is a bit presumptuous and only caters to a straw man argument. I don't think most people here have made the claim that all people can't have their conveniences. We have to avoid generalizing each other if we want to have good strong discussions.

Did you find all my comma splices?

I emphatically agree with the article.

Part of the issue too, is that people are gunning after the success that WoW had, which with as many MMOs in the field now is impossible to attain. WoW got lucky and no one is going to reproduce that kind of success with that model. Stop chasing it.

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Originally Posted by Caraway

I emphatically agree with the article.

Part of the issue too, is that people are gunning after the success that WoW had, which with as many MMOs in the field now is impossible to attain. WoW got lucky and no one is going to reproduce that kind of success with that model. Stop chasing it.

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Problem with that is that even WoW has more to do in the world than ARR, even with all its Finders and Queues. Eorzea is just plain tiny.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

That aside, simply assuming we want all that abolished is a bit presumptuous and only caters to a straw man argument. I don't think most people here have made the claim that all people can't have their conveniences. We have to avoid generalizing each other if we want to have good strong discussions.

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Actually, I mentioned those things because they are things I have actually seen people complaining about in forums (these and also those for other games). I have seen people complaining about almost every feature that you could consider a "modern amenity" up to and including the existence of any sort of map, and even the ability to zoom out to 3rd person mode. I also don't know how you could reconcile having tons of open world content with people who pretty much demand instanced content and a dungeon finder to put them in it, since the latter is casual-friendly and the former is not (and even some "hardcore" people like myself don't particularly care for open world content anyway). Since casual players make up the majority of the playerbase of all games nowadays (and not aiming for this is practically financial suicide for a game maker), even if there were tons of open world content, hardly anybody would do it. Seen anyone doing the FATEs in any but the most efficient areas to do so while leveling?

And then there's the fact that you can actually play this game (and most MMOs) in the same way as a sandbox game if you want to, but I guess people are too lazy to go into the settings and turn off nameplates, hide HUD elements, etc? I honestly don't know if this game lets you hide quest markers or not, but if it doesn't, it should. As for the all-important NMs question (I personally don't miss camping them at all, but to each his own), they are already in the game as high-level FATEs that nobody does because they don't drop anything. Maybe they should drop something, but not uber-l33t gear (maybe something cool-looking with crappy stats, for vanity?), and it shouldn't be sellable.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

Problem with that is that even WoW has more to do in the world than ARR, even with all its Finders and Queues. Eorzea is just plain tiny.

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WoW also has like 5 expansions under its belt. You can't expect a new game to compete with that. Edited to add: I actually have no idea how many expansions WoW has to date, so if that number is right or wrong, I pulled it out of the sky so it's not my fault.

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Originally Posted by chococo

I actually consider stuff like Coil to be casual approach to end-game. Cos every time you do it you're somewhat progressing; be it getting drops, gaining experience of the fight, tomes that you could accumulate to trade for gear, etc. What I consider hardcore end-gaming is camping HNMs for gear, and are designed for people who have the time to commit to it. Each time you camp you might not progress at all. My definition of hardcore is just people who have more time and/or are more devoted to the game. So in turn they could get some more tedious stuff to work on and for show.

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I have tons of time on my hands; however, I have no interest whatsoever in camping something that may or may not spawn that has a 0.01% chance of dropping an item I want. Just because I have time to spare doesn't mean I want to waste it. That momentary, fleeting joy when you finally get the drop you wanted on the 247th try is NOT worth the months of frustration, IMO. Now, if the gear that dropped from these wasn't better than, just on par stat-wise with current top-tier gear, with a unique look, and could not be sold, I might be on board with adding this as a horizontal progression, but getting the best gear in the game should never be 100% dependent on luck and latency.

I just got seriously depressed.

I remember when you could bring as many people as you wanted to raid areas, and some monsters that weren't even rare could drop items that were just as good as boss drops if you had the patience to farm that long.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

Problem with that is that even WoW has more to do in the world than ARR, even with all its Finders and Queues. Eorzea is just plain tiny.

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Most MMOs tend to start off with relatively little content and fewer zones. That's common to all MMOs. WoW did not launch with nearly as much content as it has now. In time Eorzea will gain much more content. All actively developed MMOs accrete content like crystals growing in a supersaturated solution.
Size-wise i played an MMO that launched with more zones and six years on about half of them tended to be nearly empty because most of the content was still concentrated in the more central areas. At least in part because the players begged the devs to stop placing the mission doors in huge zones where there was little else aside from exploration badges, difficult mobs, and the occasional giant monster to fight. And that was in a game where characters could fly and travel over five times the speed of FF XIV characters.

What a great article.

What's really curious is that all the casual gamers I know only care about the quests and adventuring and exploration portion of the game. Are my friends odd or do you know a similiar attitude among your peers?

Given SE's marketing ii thought the raiding WAS the part designed for casual players but it seems at least to me that's not how it works in reality.


Now we all know that there isn't that much to do outside those raids so I just hope they expand the open world content not just for casuals but to all of us.

There's so much game space in ARR that's just sitting there completely abandoned and useless.

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Originally Posted by NyxNoughtNothing

Most MMOs tend to start off with relatively little content and fewer zones. That's common to all MMOs. WoW did not launch with nearly as much content as it has now. In time Eorzea will gain much more content. All actively developed MMOs accrete content like crystals growing in a supersaturated solution.

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I can say with confidence, as someone who played WoW for 8 years, that WoW at launch had a larger world than ARR at launch.

Comparing WoW now with ARR now? I wouldn't. It wouldn't be fair. Comparing WoW at launch, in 2004, with ARR now? That's entirely fair, and Azeroth was larger than Eorzea. Much larger. And there were many things to do out in the world in that game, too, since that was before the dawn of Random Dungeon Finder and Raid Finder.

ARR does have more actual endgame content than WoW did at launch, and arguably has more content period than WoW did at launch. But the world is still dead and tiny.

To me as a gamer, games should be about exploring and discovering new things. Not just endless list of boring missions: Do this, go there, kill that, get mad for not getting the proper loot, rise and repeat endlessly. I remember that when I played rpg some time ago, not sure what the game was, I noticed this cool area with interesting enemies and just beautiful landscape. As I ventured forth in this are suddenly this giant boss appeared to me and I got my ass handed to me as I was just a low level noob. What I remember from it though is the FUN I had, and how I was scared shitless.

I don't mind if there's these missions that you have to follow but what I find the most annoying in these kinds of games these days, that they deliberately prevent you doing that, and makes you go these forced tutorials etc. Which ruins the fun of self discovering for me.

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