Anyone tried i90 ACN?

I had the crazy thought today to give ACN a try with i90 gear. I don't have the full Allagan casting set (as I went with SMN AF2 for BIS, etc), but has anyone given this a go? You lose 20 int, but gain a few tools (aero, blood for blood, internal release). Even if you can't seriously do Bahamut's Coil or extremes, I thought it might be fun for 5 mans.

Anyone tried and have feedback?

I'm in NO way a SMN main, but I do dabble with it. I pull about 200-210 solo with SMN in a stand-alone training dummy fight (I'm bad, probably) sustained in i86, EMP weapon, and Garuda is closer to 70-80.

Testing now, with ACN in the exact same gear, using Aero, B4B, Internal Release, and having but not using Mercy Stroke, I pull about 170-180 solo and Carbuncle closer to the 60-70 range.

Take these numbers with a grain of salt, as I said, I'm not a SMN main, but it looks like even with Aero (which can be Contagioned) around, and B4B/IR, it can't make up for the lack of Spur, Fester, INT, and Garuda's higher Potency.

For starters, the BiS for ACN would be something like this:

Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Allagan Circlet of Casting
Allagan Tunic of Casting
Allagan Gloves of Casting
Hero's Belt of Casting
Allagan Breeches of Casting
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Allagan Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

Which gives you 449 accuracy. Compared to the SMN BiS, this is your pro/con list:

Pros-
* Gain 29 SS (GCD reduced by 0.03)
* Gain Aero
* Gain Blood for Blood
* Gain Internal Release

Cons-
* Lose 20 INT
* Lose 10 DTR
* Lose 16 CRT
* Lose Fester
* Lose Garuda (10 potency per attack, aka 10% of pet DPS)
* Lose Enkindle
* Lose Spur

I updated my SMN damage simulator to allow for an 'ACN Mode' which basically turns on Aero/B4B/IR, uses ED instead of Fester, does not Enkindle/Spur but is otherwise the same. I calculated that you lose 16.3% DPS by switching to ACN.

Thanks T0rin. Pro: You gain carbuncle! But, definitely a major dps loss.

I'm wondering if THM wouldn't be closer (or even better) than BLM :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alcyon1

I'm wondering if THM wouldn't be closer (or even better) than BLM :p

---

u gain BfB, IR but you lose out on flare. you prolly gain dps on single target but lose out on AoE DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alcyon1

I'm wondering if THM wouldn't be closer (or even better) than BLM :p

---

thm > blm before the bfb and cross class nerfs for dps, because groups would take thm to coil and melt mobs with insane fire3s which is also why arc lost lightning because topaz carbuncle would refresh all dots with its contagion, so again in t4 and t5 arc destroyed smn in terms of dps. Also not to mention all of the other uses such as e4e, ss, and so on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alcyon1

I'm wondering if THM wouldn't be closer (or even better) than BLM :p

---

I can't test accurately until I get Allagan pants and shoes (using myth), but my tests have shown THM being quite a bit less than BLM. BLM's Convert is really good, as is Flare with Swiftcast. You also lose Piety (which HURTS) and Intelligence. The thing with B4B and IR is, they aren't that strong anymore without the trait, making classes more or less obsolete.

I have actually, I tend to use Arcanist more than Summoner because after some checking, even with stat loses because of that Job boost, that my SMN did a little less than my ACN did. You lose some Pet Potency and Intelligence, but I still believe that it's possible for ACN to do a lot of things and do them well even if it's losing out on a few things because of the Job-specific actions. I like the class more than SMN though so maybe I'm biased.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Huntington

I have actually, I tend to use Arcanist more than Summoner because after some checking, even with stat loses because of that Job boost, that my SMN did a little less than my ACN did. You lose some Pet Potency and Intelligence, but I still believe that it's possible for ACN to do a lot of things and do them well even if it's losing out on a few things because of the Job-specific actions. I like the class more than SMN though so maybe I'm biased.

---

Yeah, you're biased. The loss of gear stats, fester, pet potency, intelligence, spur and enkindle... farrrrrrrrr outweigh the minor things you get from ACN.

ACN - 86080 damage
SMN - 102854 damage

That is with BiS sets for both SMN and ACN. It can't remotely keep up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T0rin

Yeah, you're biased. The loss of gear stats, fester, pet potency, intelligence, spur and enkindle... farrrrrrrrr outweigh the minor things you get from ACN.

---

What gear is used on those results for both classes? Are you intentionally putting better gear on SMN and weakening ACN in the process? What enemies are you using it on?

Gear stats break a lot of mechanics Square Enix said themselves, Fester didn't make a difference in my parse data, Pet Potency by itself is miniscule in the differences with Garuda and Carbuncle, Enkindle is an over-hyped move attached to a 5 minute cooldown, which means it's rarely going to get used and make a difference. Blood for Blood, and Internal Release, which I did not use in my ACN test so that should have then made it do less damage, also give more power to a Crit class.

I would really prefer if people did not use acronyms, I haven't the faintest clue if BiS stands for Darklight, Crimson, Mythic gear, or otherwise.

Are you accounting for Contagion? That alone seems like it would be a fair chunk of difference in damage. Also, he listed out exactly what he meant by BiS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Huntington

What gear is used on those results for both classes? Are you intentionally putting better gear on SMN and weakening ACN in the process? What enemies are you using it on?

Gear stats break a lot of mechanics Square Enix said themselves, Fester didn't make a difference in my parse data, Pet Potency by itself is miniscule in the differences with Garuda and Carbuncle, Enkindle is an over-hyped move attached to a 5 minute cooldown, which means it's rarely going to get used and make a difference. Blood for Blood, and Internal Release, which I did not use in my ACN test so that should have then made it do less damage, also give more power to a Crit class.

I would really prefer if people did not use acronyms, I haven't the faintest clue if BiS stands for Darklight, Crimson, Mythic gear, or otherwise.

---

Best in Slot (BiS) for both classes.

ACN: (449 accuracy)

Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Allagan Circlet of Casting
Allagan Tunic of Casting
Allagan Gloves of Casting
Hero's Belt of Casting
Allagan Breeches of Casting
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Allagan Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting


SMN: (448 accuracy)

Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Allagan Circlet of Casting
Summoner's Doublet
Allagan Gloves of Casting
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Summoner's Trousers
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Allagan Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

It is a simulation, aka a fair, but virtual comparison (based on provable damage formulas and stat benefits) between two different sets of stats/gear/skills, using the same 'rotation' in order to prevent one side from have a benefit over another. They both maintain maximum potential DPS, and the SMN comes out like 18% ahead. And my simulation was using Blood for Blood and Internal release, as well as Aero, and maximizing the benefits with Contagion as well.

SMN is not a "Crit class". BRD is a Crit class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Are you accounting for Contagion? That alone seems like it would be a fair chunk of difference in damage. Also, he listed out exactly what he meant by BiS.

---

Emerald Carbuncle gets Contagion too, it's just called Shining Emerald. Does the same thing, though.

Unfortunately I have neither the time nor actual gear on hand to accrue all of the Allagan gear and use it, I can only nod and take that as close to the chest as possible. I've done ACN on several Hard Mode Dungeons, and used it in nearly as many places as I've taken SMN, and still find ACN more favorable to use. Especially since SE decided to break up Jobs for some reason and give us Job-specific gear and the like.

So Fester crit'ing for 1K when my average right now is around 700 isn't anything to show for that? A lot of the gear adds to the Crit, so you can do as much damage as possible when you use abilities like Energy Drain or Fester, just because it has DoT abilities doesn't mean it isn't a type of Crit class. Especially when ACN can raise it's Crit just as much as a Bard can. All in all, I don't have enough space to type out all that I want, my short time here showed me that I'll never be able to type as much as I want when limited to 1000 characters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Huntington

Unfortunately I have neither the time nor actual gear on hand to accrue all of the Allagan gear and use it, I can only nod and take that as close to the chest as possible. I've done ACN on several Hard Mode Dungeons, and used it in nearly as many places as I've taken SMN, and still find ACN more favorable to use. Especially since SE decided to break up Jobs for some reason and give us Job-specific gear and the like.

---

I'm not saying you can't do any and all content in the game with ACN, you can, you just do 18% less damage in the process. When your job is to deal damage, why would you pick ACN over SMN? So you can heal yourself a little better every now and then, an activity you shouldn't even be doing in the first place?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Huntington

So Fester crit'ing for 1K when my average right now is around 700 isn't anything to show for that? A lot of the gear adds to the Crit, so you can do as much damage as possible when you use abilities like Energy Drain or Fester, just because it has DoT abilities doesn't mean it isn't a type of Crit class. Especially when ACN can raise it's Crit just as much as a Bard can. All in all, I don't have enough space to type out all that I want, my short time here showed me that I'll never be able to type as much as I want when limited to 1000 characters.

---

You can't raise it as much as BRD can, but you can get it pretty high with ACN gear.

But you need to stop thinking about critial hits, or the critical hit chance stat, as some kind of magical ability. In the end, just like spell speed and determination, critical hit chance is simply another way to increase your damage. It isn't even the best way to increase your damage on a point for point basis.

BRD gets special procs from crits, that have a substantial impact on their DPS output. SMN has no such thing. Our pet crits can proc a spell speed buff, that offers a very very very minor (0.01% ?) boost to your DPS. Nothing to write home about.

I don't see the damage loss when I'm playing then, if you're going to say it's because I'm not using Fester, than that's negligible when I see what I do with an Energy Drain and a Ruin 2 in nearly the same amount of time, and can be used more often by the way as well. Which would mean that one Fester already got overpowered by 3 energy drains and otherwise in that ten-second cooldown, I had one that crit for 700 earlier, Energy Drain, doing 700, and giving me MP so I don't run out quick like Fester is loathe to add to. I told you in the other thread, I heal myself in pinch scenarios when I have a second if it's an emergency, otherwise I activate Convalescence and let the Healer do it.

Yes. Criticals matter substantially in this game, XI NEVER placed that much importance on your critical hits. They were few and usually far between, they're really common now since you yourself said that there's a lot that can boost them frequently, and when the stat gains equipment gives, matters more than it would for Spell Speed since that's a useless stat really. Yes, they have Heavy Shot and Straight Shot, which gives you a base increased crit damage rate, then Heavy Shot which can give you a guaranteed crit if it activates, while keeping alive the before mentioned rate. I'm raising a Bard now, there isn't much that's too hard to understand about the class/blarg, it's Job abilities all weaken you and boost or improve something, and the Archer abilities are visible to everyone else easily.

I also just did some more testing. Fester averaging around 670 to 700, Crits doing 980 to 1k and above. The standard three DoTs doing average of 243, Crits near 300, Miasma 2 being included doing 270's normally. ACN doing around 230 for the standard 3, 270s for crits. Aero then does an initial 110 or so, then bumps it up to 280 or averaging around there. Miasma 2 included does around 300 to 320. Aero does make a difference for it because it has a decent initial damage, this is also going in the Bio 2 > Miasma > Bio rotation as well. No buffs are being used here. Differences in other things are because of SMN's better gear right now, once ACN has a Crimson Robe to help up it, I foresee these being even more favorable for it.

You get 3 festers every minute, just like you get 3 energy drains a minute. You can't say things like "I can do just as much with energy drain and ruin as I can with fester"... why wouldn't you compare that to fester and ruin? Because that's what you would be doing instead.

You don't compare your ability to put out 450 potency with 3 energy drains in 10 seconds to the 300 potency of one Fester in the same 10 seconds, when one Fester uses up a third of the aetherflow, and will allow you to do an extra 600 potency over the next 50 seconds.

These are absolutely inane comparisons, and do nothing to further the discussion. All of the anecdotal evidence in the world isn't going to prove that ACN is better. But, if you scrolled up and read, you would see where there is actual proof to the contrary.

Huntington, nothing in your last post makes any sense. You can not use Energy Drain more often than Fester, as they're both limited to 3 per minute. If your Energy Drain is critting for 700, a Fester in its place would have crit for 1,400. That's 2,100 max damage in a minute compared to 4,200 max damage in a minute. Even if none of the three crit, that's 1,300 versus 2,700. And that's not counting the boosted stats from SMN or anything. . .

Since posting this, I have tried an ACN build with i86 gear (best I could manage in 1 week) that includes Allagan grimoire of casting. The dps is at least 15% less. Your ruins alone are doing 100-120 less per hit. The loss of 20 int is a bit hit. I don't mind the idea of trying ACN in DF groups, or even friendly instance/raids but don't come into the thread with completely false information. You do it because it's fun, not because it is better... that's okay, but acknowledge facts and don't push your bad logic on the community.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T0rin

SMN is not a "Crit class". BRD is a Crit class.

---

If the ridiculous BiS list you posted for both ACN and SMN wasn't enough this line is the icing on the cake of the bad advice you're putting forward. I've had 100% accuracy with <400 accuracy on all extreme primals. The number you are posting only even matters for turn 5 snakes and even then it's too high post 2.1 since pet accuracy seems to be simply your accuracy and not the arbitrary 450 it was before. You aren't using food in your total # and if you are you should specify which you are using for those accuracy heavy fights. You are also making some ridiculous gear choices, completely abandoning any crit for most of your slots. Crit is Summoner's #1 most important secondary stat. I happen to think there's a certain cut off point once you're in the ~550 range where certain gear choices towards DET start to make sense because crit gear up to 600ish max SMN can hit doesn't seem to produce too noticeable of a crit increase in parsers vs staying in the 540-550 range and getting more DET. But, you aren't even remotely close to that # with gear choices like allagan circlet or caster ring (or myth legs + circlet + tremor earrings, etc.)

SMN is more of a crit class than any job in the game besides Scholar. Bard has 2 DoTs who's crit rate matters for DPS increase (River of Blood trait and only 3 DoTs total) and even then it's only a 50% chance that the crit proc will trigger River of Blood ontop of certain fights like Atomos or Ifrit Extreme where 1/2 of the dots that matter for River of Blood can't be used.

SMN can crit the following every 3 seconds: Bio II, Miasma, Bio, Shadowflare, (this is already a higher # of things that can crit than BRD's 2 DoTs + Flaming Arrow every 30sec), Ruin I/II, Pet attack, Auto Attack, and Miasma II if its Contagioned. That's 5 attacks that you should have up 100% of the time and 2 more (Miasma II and Auto attacks) that get used situationally. So that's 5-7 attacks that all can crit independent of eachother. And that's not even counting the spell speed trait when your pet crits or Fester/ED criting. SMN is a crit based job through simple probability.

I'm fairly certain Torin's own simulations lead to the fact that Determination is indeed better than equal amounts of Critical Hit Rating as a secondary stat.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...e_simulations/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Torin

So, I've spent a couple weeks doing a lot of data gathering, math and programming/scripting to come up with some sort of proof as to what gear set(s) are BiS for SMN and why. This thread on the SE forums shows some work done modeling the damage formula around numerous sets of in-game data. (not parses)
From there, I did some work to verify the formula (I did, about 30 times over with varying skills and gearsets at level 50), and documented my findings in this thread, also on the SE forums.
In the process of this validating of the math, it became quickly evident that the actual stat priority was: WD > INT > DTR > CRT > SS

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ceveth

I'm fairly certain Torin's own simulations lead to the fact that Determination is indeed better than equal amounts of Critical Hit Rating as a secondary stat.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...e_simulations/

---

Central flaw of the simulation he put forward that 'prove' DTR > CRT.
- As he himself admits they are 'practically equal'. At the amount of damage he 'simulated' the few hundred damage difference between any of the 3 sets is not statistically significant. Nothing about his test was in any way conclusive in any of the directions he pointed to, especially since he 'simulated' it? The 'materials and methods' section of his paper requires a lot more information + providing the means for other interested parties to duplicate his findings. The baseline for statistical significance at an academic level is typically 1%-5%. Seeing as how he himself acknowledges all sets are within 0.5% of each other, his results don't really show anything that we can make definite conclusions about.

More Problems I see with his test
- All of the gear sets he tested rest on the assumption that 100% accuracy for Garuda is equal to maximized damage. He needs to prove this. If you're at 98% accuracy but you're doing 3% more damage per action then you are actually doing more damage than being at 100% accuracy with lower damage per hit. And since the difference between accuracy #s at the gear he's talking about vs gear with crit is at most 1-2 missed hits for the entire fight he needs examine other gear sets with less accuracy but more determination, crit, etc. Because don't forget you're already at a higher accuracy % than Garuda is and that crit/determination value applies to more than just your Garuda's auto attack.

- He's not counting food which again since this whole test is based around Turn 5 BiS he should taking account of since that is one of the few situations in game where you 100% should be using food and that changes the gear sets around significantly to hit his '448' number. If he is using food in the simulation he needs to actually tell us what food it is, because again the point of these kinds of tests outside of XIV is that other researchers can replicate it to verify your findings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

SMN can crit the following every 3 seconds: Bio II, Miasma, Bio, Shadowflare, (this is already a higher # of things that can crit than BRD's 2 DoTs + Flaming Arrow every 30sec), Ruin I/II, Pet attack, Auto Attack, and Miasma II if its Contagioned. That's 5 attacks that you should have up 100% of the time and 2 more (Miasma II and Auto attacks) that get used situationally. So that's 5-7 attacks that all can crit independent of eachother. And that's not even counting the spell speed trait when your pet crits or Fester/ED criting. SMN is a crit based job through simple probability.

---

Not counting your auto-attack, that's approximately 116 chances to crit. Windbite, Venomous Bite, Flame Arrow, all our OGCD abilities, our GCD abilities, and our auto-attack add up to somewhere around 110 for BRD, depending on RoB procs. What's your argument, again?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

Not counting your auto-attack, that's approximately 116 chances to crit. Windbite, Venomous Bite, Flame Arrow, all our OGCD abilities, our GCD abilities, and our auto-attack add up to somewhere around 110 for BRD, depending on RoB procs. What's your argument, again?

---

Torin stated he considers Bard to be a crit based class and SMN not to be. My argument is that if SMN has more actions that can crit independently of each other every GCD / 3 seconds then Summoner should also be considered a crit based class. The more things that can independently crit per GCD, the more importance crit should logically have to you.

Last time I checked 116 > 110 (assuming your #s are correct? What is the time period you are even measuring?) which means that SMN has more actions that crit, which means that if BRD is a CRIT based class, SMN should be considered to be one too.

Just as an aside, you should also count auto attacks. SMN(and SCH) have drastically higher STR(70 STR on my character) than other mage jobs (BLM/WHM). You can be in melee auto attack range for every 'endgame' fight in game with the exception of T2 ADS (because of rot passing), parts of Garuda Ex, and nail phases on Ifrit Ex, and post snake phase in Turn 5. You can definitely melee the nails on Ifrit if you're suicidal, during sisters phases in Garuda Extreme if you're confident in your Wicked Wheel dodging skills, but that's just a tangent to this aside. The point is is that Ruin II + book auto attacks are a net DPS gain equivalent to another dot tick over using Ruin I exclusively and any MP issues you might have doing this resolved themselves in 2.1 once we lost Thunder. So technically the 116 vs 110 # should be even larger because you can get in an auto attack every GCD where you aren't reapplying dots.

What T0rin meant is that SMN has no other benefit from crits besides more dmg, which is the case for all DPS classes we have, no matter how often you attack. In BRD's case more crit means more Blood Letter, there for crit class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

Crit is Summoner's #1 most important secondary stat..... SMN is more of a crit class than any job in the game besides Scholar.....

---

T0rin is backing his words up with data he has collected, if your so convinced he's wrong, where is yours? :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

What T0rin meant is that SMN has no other benefit from crits besides more dmg, which is the case for all DPS classes we have, no matter how often you attack. In BRD's case more crit means more Blood Letter, there for crit class.

---

We have a 20% chance of extra spell speed every time our pet crits which is based off our own crit rate. Granted spell speed is the lowest priority secondary stat for SMN but that still ends up being a DPS gain, however marginal it may be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by scarebearz

T0rin is backing his words up with data he has collected, if your so convinced he's wrong, where is yours? :D

---

A) I already explained why his data is inconclusive something he himself acknowledges the data was before making his much more drastic conclusions (which is oddly common for scientific papers).

B) Until his data can be replicated externally by other people there's no way it can even be argued to be valid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

Last time I checked 116 > 110 (assuming your #s are correct? What is the time period you are even measuring?) which means that SMN has more actions that crit, which means that if BRD is a CRIT based class, SMN should be considered to be one too.

---

I was going over a 1 minute duration. I was on the way out the door so I didn't estimate how many AA SMN would get, and may have slightly over-estimated BRD's OGCD number. I'll edit the post in a moment with the numbers I used. In the mean time, I'll explain why BRD is currently listed as the only "crit class." It's because we're currently the only class where a major source of our damage just disappears if we aren't getting any crits. The extra potency that a SMN gets from crit pales in comparison to what BRD gets due to River of Blood.

Edit: Here are the numbers I was using.

SMN:
Dot ticks - 20x4=80 (Bio 2, Miasma, Bio, Shadow Flare)
Pet AA - 19 (Contagion takes one spot)
Spell casts - 17 (2 Bio 2 casts, 2 Shadow Flare casts, and 3 Bio casts that can't crit, subtracted from 24)
Forgot to include Fester - 3
Also forgot AA - 15 (3.2 delay on Allagan book makes 19, minus time spent casting Bio 2 x2, Miasma x2, and Shadow Flare x1.)
Total: 80+19+17+3=119, 134 with AA

BRD:
Dot ticks - 20x2=40 (Windbite and Venomous Bite)
Flaming Arrow - 10
GCD attacks - 24
OGCD attacks - 15 (8 guaranteed from Bloodletter, Repelling Shot, and Blunt Arrow. 7 RoB procs over 1 minute is easily doable with normal RNG.)
AA - 25 (3.2 delay on Allag bow makes 19, plus about 6 from Barrage.)
Total: 40+10+24+15+25=114

The difference, here, is that 7 of those attacks (1,050 potency worth) would never have happened without crit. It would take SMN a hell of a lot of crit to get enough spell speed buff uptime to get 7 more attacks a minute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pwnznewbz

Since posting this, I have tried an ACN build with i86 gear (best I could manage in 1 week) that includes Allagan grimoire of casting. The dps is at least 15% less. Your ruins alone are doing 100-120 less per hit. The loss of 20 int is a bit hit. I don't mind the idea of trying ACN in DF groups, or even friendly instance/raids but don't come into the thread with completely false information. You do it because it's fun, not because it is better... that's okay, but acknowledge facts and don't push your bad logic on the community.

---

I really took a double check at the Ruin bit, do you mean overall parse data for them when averaged out over time, or that the Ruins literally hit for that much less damage when you use them?

I'm looking forward to taking teh time to write up a reply later this evening. I simply assume loldrg is a troll, but I'll prove him wrong regardless. Same bad arguments we've heard 20 times over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T0rin

I'm looking forward to taking teh time to write up a reply later this evening. I simply assume loldrg is a troll, but I'll prove him wrong regardless. Same bad arguments we've heard 20 times over.

---

So far his arguments have been more compelling than yours, and he clearly has a firm grasp of what he's arguing. Labeling him a troll is the most severe cop out possible, but you're likely not capable of producing a better argument than he, so I guess your "troll" response was expected.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T0rin

Same bad arguments we've heard 20 times over.

---

Oh the internet. Where we are expected to respect random person X's data like it's just been published in Nature and is about to win the Nobel Prize in Chemistry without actually being able to question the results on the basis of the experiment or demand verification/replication of the results by a 3rd party. And if someone questions the self-proclaimed expert without their own equally spurious data they are automatically labeled a troll. Nothing I brought up is unreasonable argument if you actually understand how to interpret data, experiments, or have a fundamental grasp on logical inference. You yourself acknowledge a .05% variance in the 4 gear sets' results which any reasonable person would accept as not being statistically significant enough to form the basis of the argument that determination is better than crit.

Anyways, I'm done responding to this thread since I'm a 'troll'. Official forums have lived up to their reputation of being devoid of intelligent discourse. Back to BG forums.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

Oh the internet. Where we are expected to respect random person X's data like it's just been published in Nature and is about to win the Nobel Prize in Chemistry without actually being able to question the results on the basis of the experiment or demand verification/replication of the results by a 3rd party. And if someone questions the self-proclaimed expert without their own equally spurious data they are automatically labeled a troll. Nothing I brought up is an unreasonable argument if you actually understand how to interpret data, experiments, or have a fundamental grasp on logical inference. You yourself acknowledge a .05% variance in the 4 gear sets' results which any reasonable person would accept as not being statistically significant enough to form the basis of the argument that determination is better than crit.

Anyways, I'm done responding to this thread since I'm a 'troll'. Official forums have lived up to their reputation of being devoid of intelligent discourse. Back to BG forums.

---

I think I said that same first bit myself to him in my terrible thread.

It's fine that you should question my results, I'd hope that would happen. But if you are going to, you should actually read everything available to you before you say that nothing is verifiable. I've made everything I've ever concluded completely open and detailed specifically so people could replicate and verify or disprove it. Just because you didn't want to take the time, and then call me out on not doing what I've already done multiple times, DOES make you a troll.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

I've had 100% accuracy with <400 accuracy on all extreme primals. The number you are posting only even matters for turn 5 snakes and even then it's too high post 2.1 since pet accuracy seems to be simply your accuracy and not the arbitrary 450 it was before.

---

Yes, you and everyone else can hit 100% accuracy on Ex Primals, nobody said otherwise. The numbers (450 for the pet) are for Turn 5, which is something everyone needs to gear for, unless they have their weapons and simply mean to abstain from the fight. However, for the majority of players who are still attempting or farming turn 5, the accuracy is very much a necessity. And no, post-2.1, pet accuracy did not revert to 435, try using something other than FFXIV-APP, and you'll find out, because it doesn't parse pet accuracy accurately, for quite a while now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

You aren't using food in your total # and if you are you should specify which you are using for those accuracy heavy fights.

---

I'm not using any +accuracy food, because accuracy doesn't affect the pet. Why am I being ridiculed by a GLD on how SMN mechanics work?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

If the ridiculous BiS list you posted for both ACN and SMN wasn't enough this line is the icing on the cake of the bad advice you're putting forward.

You are also making some ridiculous gear choices, completely abandoning any crit for most of your slots. Crit is Summoner's #1 most important secondary stat. I happen to think there's a certain cut off point once you're in the ~550 range where certain gear choices towards DET start to make sense because crit gear up to 600ish max SMN can hit doesn't seem to produce too noticeable of a crit increase in parsers vs staying in the 540-550 range and getting more DET. But, you aren't even remotely close to that # with gear choices like allagan circlet or caster ring (or myth legs + circlet + tremor earrings, etc.)

---

CRT is not the most important stat from a point for point perspective. See this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Formula-Thread

It explains in detail, but basically, the damage formula was reverse engineered from in-game data sets (sit in front of a target for hours, spam a single skill with a known potency value and write down all the results, then derive the formula from multiple sets where gear changes, stats change, etc.) to come up with a specific formula: (WD*.2714745 + INT*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*INT*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (Potency/100)

Go check it for yourself, but the formula is accurate across any gear or stats you want to throw at it, with any skill. It gives you a damage value (within the 5% acceptable range of RNG variation) that will predict what any gear using any skill will produce. From this, you can derive how much each stat (on a single point basis) contributes to damage.. i.e. if I increase DTR by 1 point, I get X damage. Or if I increase CRT by 1 point, I get Y damage. You can easily figure out (see http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1784123 for a method to how) how much each stat contributes to damage. The result of which is WD > INT > DTR > CRT > SS.

So no, CRT is not "Summoner's #1 most important secondary stat". The more DTR (or INT) you have, the better each point of CRT is, so it behooves you to take some DTR, at least. But, a single point of DTR will always be worth more than a single point of CRT, so there are certain pieces of gear (Allagan Circlet for instance) that will always be better than the myth alternative (Summoner's Horn), regardless of how much CRT you have, simply because of itemization. Some more CRT heavy gear (Summoner's Doublet for example) will be better than the DTR heavy alternative (Allagan Tunic) simply because it has better stat distribution. You don't decide the value of a single piece of gear compared to another on the stats of that single piece of gear, you decide based on the entire set that allows you to reach a specific level of ACC.

There is nothing magical about 550 CRT, it is an arbitrary stopping point. The rate at which you get crits never diminishes, so balancing CRT and DTR is just a matter of finding the right combination of gear to produce the most damage possible, of which the aforementioned set does. But, I will admit, the CRT heavy alternative produces only 0.5% less DPS than the DTR heavy set, which is good for flexibility, but if I wanted the absolutely utmost damage I could get, the DTR heavy set gives slightly more. But for reference, this CRT heavy set is only a very very small amount worse than the aforementioned set:

Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Summoner's Horn
Summoner's Doublet
Summoner's Ringbands
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Allagan Breeches of Casting
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Hero's Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

SMN is more of a crit class than any job in the game besides Scholar. Bard has 2 DoTs who's crit rate matters for DPS increase (River of Blood trait and only 3 DoTs total) and even then it's only a 50% chance that the crit proc will trigger River of Blood ontop of certain fights like Atomos or Ifrit Extreme where 1/2 of the dots that matter for River of Blood can't be used.

SMN can crit the following every 3 seconds: Bio II, Miasma, Bio, Shadowflare, (this is already a higher # of things that can crit than BRD's 2 DoTs + Flaming Arrow every 30sec), Ruin I/II, Pet attack, Auto Attack, and Miasma II if its Contagioned. That's 5 attacks that you should have up 100% of the time and 2 more (Miasma II and Auto attacks) that get used situationally. So that's 5-7 attacks that all can crit independent of eachother. And that's not even counting the spell speed trait when your pet crits or Fester/ED criting. SMN is a crit based job through simple probability.

---

Now here is where you really start to lose it. BRD gets procs based on crits, procs that can actually influence DPS output by a noticeable amount. SMN can proc a spell speed buff, that while noticeable in terms of how much of a buff you get, occurs so infrequently (even with the most potential CRT you can have on gear) and lasts for such a short amount of time, that it comes out to be a 0.01% DPS loss using the CRT light set vs the CRT heavy set. It matters _that_ little.

It doesn't matter that you can crit 100 times a minute using 5+ abilities simultaneously. None of those crits can trigger the buff. Only your pet's attacks can trigger the buff, so you could be critting 10 million times a second on your DoTs and other spells, and you'd have a 0% increase in your chance to proc an SS buff. So I ask you, what exactly do all those abilities critting actually accomplish, other than dealing more damage? I'll tell you: Nothing.

In the end, CRT is just another way to increase damage output, just like DTR, just like INT, just like WD and just like SS. It is not special, or magical, it doesn't provide you any unique benefit. It's just more damage, and on a point for point basis, it isn't even the best source of damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

Central flaw of the simulation he put forward that 'prove' DTR > CRT.

---

Actually no, the damage formula proved that DTR is better than CRT, my simulation was just a means to determin the impact of spell speed on an actual realistic rotation, and have some means to put some realism to all the math. There is nothing in the simulation that is biased towards DTR or CRT or any specific stat. That's the point, it is meant to be an unbiased test. If you can find any flaw in the simulation that would give out false data, please, let me know, and I'll gladly fix it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

- As he himself admits they are 'practically equal'. At the amount of damage he 'simulated' the few hundred damage difference between any of the 3 sets is not statistically significant. Nothing about his test was in any way conclusive in any of the directions he pointed to, especially since he 'simulated' it? The 'materials and methods' section of his paper requires a lot more information + providing the means for other interested parties to duplicate his findings. The baseline for statistical significance at an academic level is typically 1%-5%. Seeing as how he himself acknowledges all sets are within 0.5% of each other, his results don't really show anything that we can make definite conclusions about.

---

It isn't significant, and I've said that many many many many times. But, 'best is best'. If you want the absolutely utmost damage, there is only 1 set. It may only be very slightly (0.5%) more than other sets, but it is still 'best'.

And again, if you wish to duplicate any of my findings, I've documented in the above posts that I've already linked. See the damage formula thread if you want to see how they went about coming to it. See my documented step by step math if you want to see how I used that with SMN specific data to come up with some kind of analysis of stat benefits. Anyone can take that damage formula, go write down 1000 numbers in the game as they pop up on their screen, and come to the exact same conclusion that I and others have. It's all been documented, you apparently just haven't taken the time to read it. But, that doesn't seem to stop you from saying it is all wrong, with no proof of your own. And if you bothered to read it, you'd have known that RNG was taken completely out of the equation when it came to the simulation, it is all pure average damage (which reflects all the RNG in the game), applied to realistic spell rotations. That's why the simulations come out with the exact same damage every time you run them with a specific set of stats, because there is no RNG. That is why I can say definitively why one thing is better than another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

More Problems I see with his test
- All of the gear sets he tested rest on the assumption that 100% accuracy for Garuda is equal to maximized damage. He needs to prove this. If you're at 98% accuracy but you're doing 3% more damage per action then you are actually doing more damage than being at 100% accuracy with lower damage per hit. And since the difference between accuracy #s at the gear he's talking about vs gear with crit is at most 1-2 missed hits for the entire fight he needs examine other gear sets with less accuracy but more determination, crit, etc. Because don't forget you're already at a higher accuracy % than Garuda is and that crit/determination value applies to more than just your Garuda's auto attack.

---

I'll work on updating my simulation to allow you to specify and accuracy cap for 100% accuracy, and try to model out some miss chances and how they are affected by single and double digit accuracy deficiencies. There has been some 'sloppy math' done in this regard with real data that shows that the gap is wide enough to side with Garuda accuracy being more important than a small amount of secondary stats, but it is worth going further with to attempt to prove more definitively. But, these are still apples to apples comparisons, assuming 100% Garuda accuracy (which you might get against Ex Primals and non-BC content) for every set, and passing in stats of sets with almost 450 accuracy. It's not like I'm comparing a 448 ACC set to a 428 ACC set and saying "look, the 428 ACC set is so much better!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

- He's not counting food which again since this whole test is based around Turn 5 BiS he should taking account of since that is one of the few situations in game where you 100% should be using food and that changes the gear sets around significantly to hit his '448' number. If he is using food in the simulation he needs to actually tell us what food it is, because again the point of these kinds of tests outside of XIV is that other researchers can replicate it to verify your findings.

---

I am counting food, if you looked at the simulation logs (linked several times, including inside this post), you'll have seen that. And since food doesn't affect pet accuracy, and there is one distinctly superior food choice (buttons) to make, it doesn't change gear sets at all. But my simulation offers the choice to specify "food=eggs" if you really think that the extra CRT is superior, just to prove to yourself that it isn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loldrg

Torin stated he considers Bard to be a crit based class and SMN not to be. My argument is that if SMN has more actions that can crit independently of each other every GCD / 3 seconds then Summoner should also be considered a crit based class. The more things that can independently crit per GCD, the more importance crit should logically have to you.

---

Why would that make it a 'crit based class'? You get no actual benefit from your ability to crit a bunch of times every 3 seconds. It literally has no actual impact other than another way to increase damage. Why does critting more times every tick 'logically' mean it is important? DTR affects every single attack all the time, does that mean it is superior? Well, not based on just that logic, no. Doesn't make any sense at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LateRegi

So far his arguments have been more compelling than yours, and he clearly has a firm grasp of what he's arguing. Labeling him a troll is the most severe cop out possible, but you're likely not capable of producing a better argument than he, so I guess your "troll" response was expected.

---

Clearly he has a firm grasp on what he is arguing, even if he is obviously wrong about how SMN mechanics work? Really? I'm guessing you're just his buddy from Hyperion who came to comment about how he was butthurt about being called a troll, which he is. I labeled him a troll in my post how I would actually write out proof of how he is wrong. It wasn't a cop out, it was me tagging the thread so I'd know where I'd need to come back to in order to dispel some dubious bad-SMN-logic that was being spewed.

Yep, I was right, same FC even. Please go back under your bridge. You really add a lot of credibility to his trolling. *cough*

T0rin - /golfclap. Well said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T0rin

It explains in detail, but basically, the damage formula was reverse engineered from in-game data sets (sit in front of a target for hours, spam a single skill with a known potency value and write down all the results, then derive the formula from multiple sets where gear changes, stats change, etc.) to come up with a specific formula: (WD*.2714745 + INT*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*INT*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (Potency/100)

---

Valks formula is an approximation and known to prdouce incorrect results. Also, valks formula does NOT apply to each and every job and skill in the game.

Edit: Another theorycrafting source, working on the actual game formula.
http://www.chocobro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AhmeraMae

Valks formula is an approximation and known to prdouce incorrect results. Also, valks formula does NOT apply to each and every job and skill in the game.

Edit: Another theorycrafting source, working on the actual game formula.
http://www.chocobro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98

---

It isn't Valk's formula. Or maybe Valk adopted it after EasymodeX did significant work on it. Either way, this particular formula does apply to each and every job and skill in the game, that's the point.

And Eein's work (that you quoted) is 6 months old at this point. He's admitted to needing to revisit it, but AFAIK, has not published anything new. Regardless, it is easy enough for anyone, with any class, to verify the aforementioned formula.

The only reason I come to these forums nowadays is to watch T0rin lay smack downs.