Garuda Extreme final phase melee question

So when first add dies and you just have Saparana left on other side of twisters is there a way to not get Wicked Wheel in the face? It seems to trigger the moment melee go in.

Its all scripted to hit at the same time everytime. Right after slipstream, and it starts friction then cuts midcast to whicked wheel right away during tornado phase. You have to move away near the end of slipstream then come back in after. If there is limited room you can leave the tornado area and then elusive jump/shoulder tackle back in, hide in a corner if tank position is good, or foresight and pray.

There's two good ways to do this with melee:

1: The Melee stays on Chirada the whole time. Ranged dps down Suparna first then switch to Chirada once its down.
2: After Chirada dies, the off tank pulls Suparna to his corner and the tanks trade spiny.

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Originally Posted by Mekhana

There's two good ways to do this with melee:

1: The Melee stays on Chirada the whole time. Ranged dps down Suparna first then switch to Chirada once its down.
2: After Chirada dies, the off tank pulls Suparna to his corner and the tanks trade spiny.

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I do like the #1 strat. I'll try it. Is that with two healers?

I like to do this: Melee LB Suparna as soon as she spawns, you should be able to do this every tornado phase. Then quickly run over to your OT who will have Chirada. Helps your RDPS down Suparna and get over to helping you on Chirada even faster.

There are seriously a million ways to do this fight =p

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Originally Posted by Arasiel

I do like the #1 strat. I'll try it. Is that with two healers?

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1 heal is fine. DPS shouldn't be taking any damage with that strategy unless they're careless.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I like to do this: Melee LB Suparna as soon as she spawns, you should be able to do this every tornado phase. Then quickly run over to your OT who will have Chirada. Helps your RDPS down Suparna and get over to helping you on Chirada even faster.

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Ooooo. I like this even better. Range DPS sits on Suparna, the one Melee LBs Suparana, then moves to Chirada. Range DPS finish Suparna then back to Chirada.

It doesn't have anything to do with when melee go in.
WW is scripted to happen at the same spot in their ability rotation every time.
It's just coincidence that it "seems" like she uses it right when you go in.

So if your group wants to kill Chirada first, you just need to wait for the WW, THEN tackle/spineshatter over.
Otherwise if your group just changes it up a bit and kills Suparna first, you won't have to worry about it as long as you kill her before the WW comes up.

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Originally Posted by Arasiel

So when first add dies and you just have Saparana left on other side of twisters is there a way to not get Wicked Wheel in the face? It seems to trigger the moment melee go in.

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Uhh... you tell the tanks to do their job. There are three main strategies.

1) Double Wicked Wheel method, the most common method. MT takes Suparna, OT takes Chirada and the Spiny. Once Chirada dies, the MT trades Suparna with the Spiny. Melee DPS will never be in range of anything capable of Wicked Wheel -- Suparna loses the ability to WW once Chirada dies. Cleanest melee DPS method with good tanks.

2) Split method, reportedly favored by the Japanese. MT takes Garuda only, OT takes Suparna, and the DPS will take Chirada and beat her senseless without a tank. Once Chirada is down, head over to Suparna, who can't WW anymore. Spiny goes to either tank, because neither moves.

3) Pure ranged method. MT takes Garuda and Chirada, OT takes Suparna. DPS slaughter Suparna from their safe spot, then switch to either Chirada or Garuda. You can ignore Chirada altogether and use tank LB to survive linked attack each sister phase. Results in quick kills, especially if you're overgeared, but technically risky as it requires tank LB and needs everyone topped off every time.

If you see anything else, then someone probably screwed up and needs to fix it. Never split DPS between sisters. It's a bad strategy which maximizes buff time on sisters and Garuda and turns the spiny swap into a total mess. This is only ever done because of incompetent tanks and is wholly pointless compared to the split method. Among those things I see people try, this is pretty much the only one which is outright wrong.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Uhh... you tell the tanks to do their job. There are three main strategies.

1) Double Wicked Wheel method, the most common method. MT takes Suparna, OT takes Chirada and the Spiny. Once Chirada dies, the MT trades Suparna with the Spiny. Melee DPS will never be in range of anything capable of Wicked Wheel -- Suparna loses the ability to WW once Chirada dies. Cleanest melee DPS method with good tanks.

2) Split method, reportedly favored by the Japanese. MT takes Garuda only, OT takes Suparna, and the DPS will take Chirada and beat her senseless without a tank. Once Chirada is down, head over to Suparna, who can't WW anymore. Spiny goes to either tank, because neither moves.

3) Pure ranged method. MT takes Garuda and Chirada, OT takes Suparna. DPS slaughter Suparna from their safe spot, then switch to either Chirada or Garuda. You can ignore Chirada altogether and use tank LB to survive linked attack each sister phase. Results in quick kills, especially if you're overgeared, but technically risky as it requires tank LB and needs everyone topped off every time.

If you see anything else at all, then someone screwed up and needs to fix it. Never split DPS between sisters. It's a bad strategy which maximizes buff time on sisters and Garuda and turns the spiny swap into a total mess. This is only ever done because of incompetent tanks and is wholly pointless compared to the split method. Among those things I see people try, this is pretty much the only one which is outright wrong.

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This post sums up the whole thread.

The split method causes the MT to end up with Suprana and the OT with Garuda. Chirada at 50% HP is the trigger that causes the teleport swap between Garuda/Suprana.

The groups I run with do it where the tanks swap Spiny and Suparna and I usually don't have to cross. The odd time the OT will have issues picking up both Chirada and Spiny. If that happens, I just hit all my defensive cooldowns and cross after Chirada is dead. I don't bother waiting to see WW, I just eat it. I'm usually left with ~500 hp or so and the healers top me up.

The simplest method is to have the main tank take Chirada (instead of Suparna as commonly known). While off tank is tanking Suparna, melee will still eat Wicked Wheel in the face but without suffering double WW (Garuda's share). It will only drop a decent geared melee to half HP, which can be easily topped off by the healers.

Afterwards, depending on which tank has spiny plume, the melee can dps at the off tank's or main tank's position as desired. One more Wicked Wheel will be casted by Garuda but it will not be enough to kill the melee.

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

melee will still eat Wicked Wheel in the face but without suffering double WW

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I'm happy this seems to work for you, but it's a terrible strategy.

Guy in my FC timed it. Its exactly 25sec after Garuda does Slipstream. We did the fight with two melee, he would call out 5sec warning over voice chat, we move out WW, we move back in.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I'm happy this seems to work for you, but it's a terrible strategy.

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This is how I always do it, sans the eating. I dodge it and gap close (usually a Spineshatter) and it seems to work well for us. Suparna generally doesn't live long after this, but it has an added benefit for us as I'm often targeted with the Spiny plume and it makes the exchange much simpler.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

This is how I always do it, sans the eating. I dodge it and gap close (usually a Spineshatter) and it seems to work well for us. Suparna generally doesn't live long after this, but it has an added benefit for us as I'm often targeted with the Spiny plume and it makes the exchange much simpler.

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I was purely commenting on his idea that melee eating WW is a good enough strategy. I prefer melee LB Suparna then switch to Chirada on OT for ease of melee execution, but I don't think it matters very much.

The Sisters' rotation is pretty simple to memorize; Slipstream > Friction > Special.

During the second phase and depending on which sister you're attacking and if you're trying to hot-dog by attacking one near Garuda:

Suparna - move out of range before Friction finishes casting. (3/4 should be enough time to run w/o the use of something like Evasive Jump, but it's cutting it very close)

Chirada - keep to her ass unless it's being tanked by DPS, in which case stay in-front of her when Friction is near finished casting to disperse the damage from Downburst.
*edit; I hear reports of Chirada being able to use Wicked Wheel when Suparna is killed, but have never seen her use it personally. So, if you want to play it safe, treat Chirada like Suparna when Suparna is down.

Either Sister when near Garuda - GTFO shortly after the Sister uses Slipstream; the timing here can get funky, but in over 30 runs I've seen Garuda use Wicked Wheel before a Sister gets half way through casting Friction to several seconds after.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I'm happy this seems to work for you, but it's a terrible strategy.

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I agree with you but I did say it is the "simplest method", didn't I?

It requires zero effort on the part of the melee, with the only downside as an additional heal from the healers, that's all.

People complain melee can't dodge and party find with range casters only, when the only thing you need to do is for the tank to change the pull from Suparna to Chirada.

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

While off tank is tanking Suparna, melee will still eat Wicked Wheel in the face... It will only drop a decent geared melee to half HP, which can be easily topped off by the healers.

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I haven't done Garuda Extreme as a DPS in a while, but when I did, I was one-shot with 5000 HP when doing that.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

...it has an added benefit for us as I'm often targeted with the Spiny plume and it makes the exchange much simpler.

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That will only happen if you're second on Garuda's enmity list. That is both difficult to coordinate and pointless as it requires omitting OT DPS.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

I haven't done Garuda Extreme as a DPS in a while, but when I did, I was one-shot with 5000 HP when doing that.

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That's because you ate 2 Wicked Wheel at the same time. One is from Suparna, and the other from Garuda. They both cast Wicked Wheel at the same time.

If you read what I wrote again, you will see that I mentioned the off-tank taking Suparna, so that both Wicked Wheel will be separated, thus you will only be eating one Wicked Wheel (2500 damage in your case).

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

That's because you ate 2 Wicked Wheel at the same time. One is from Suparna, and the other from Garuda. They both cast Wicked Wheel at the same time.

If you read what I wrote again, you will see that I mentioned the off-tank taking Suparna, so that both Wicked Wheel will be separated, thus you will only be eating one Wicked Wheel (2500 damage in your case).

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Nope, one WW is 5K+ not sure what dps you were playing.

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

If you read what I wrote again, you will see that I mentioned the off-tank taking Suparna, so that both Wicked Wheel will be separated, thus you will only be eating one Wicked Wheel (2500 damage in your case).

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My WAR eats 2500 with Vengeance and a parry. If unmitigated WW were only 2500 to a DPS, then everyone would use double WW method because you wouldn't need mitigation at all. Hell, every MDPS would just ignore it altogether; it wouldn't even be a mechanic anyone would talk about.

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Originally Posted by Etgar

Nope, one WW is 5K+ not sure what dps you were playing.

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Just to confirm, you experienced that figure while you where within proximity of both garuda and suparna, or just one of them?

Because if what you are saying is correct, then both Wicked Wheel from Garuda and Suparna will have an added total of 10,000 damage. I played a paladin and have experienced it without any defensive cooldowns on (granted that I have defensive stats, given the nature of a tank), and the most I have experienced is 4.5-5k damage (unmitigated damage without def cds) from BOTH Garuda and Suparna. Additionally, while tanking ONLY garuda, I have experience around 1.2-1.5k damage from ONE single Wicked Wheel.

Additionally, how would you know it is 5k damage for ONE wicked wheel if you haven't already tried my method, by separating garuda and suparna? Because garuda and suparna cast wicked wheel ALWAYS at the same time. So, please clarify.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

My WAR eats 2500 with Vengeance and a parry. If unmitigated WW were only 2500 to a DPS, then everyone would use double WW method because you wouldn't need mitigation at all. Hell, every MDPS would just ignore it altogether; it wouldn't even be a mechanic anyone would talk about.

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Thanks for the input, I won't say your figure is wrong but please state how you experienced those damage. Was it from ONE wicked wheel, or TWO wicked wheel? That's really what I am trying to get.

I say 2,500 damage on a dps is just a rough estimate because my team's monk and dragoon always got his HP below 40% when they eats one Wicked Wheel from Suparna. Fact is that they survived without dodging suparna's wicked wheel on every turn of the tornado phase with consistant level of damage taken.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

That will only happen if you're second on Garuda's enmity list. That is both difficult to coordinate and pointless as it requires omitting OT DPS.

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Yes, I'm aware but it's icing on the cake, not the point of this particular strategy. And we don't 'omit' OT DPS. Really not even trying to epeen here but, I just usually am #2 at this point.

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

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The only time I've taken so little damage from an unmitigated WW was with both Stoneskin and Adloquim pre-cast on me, may be you're not taking that into account. On the flip side, I've never taken much more than 4k damage from an unmitigated singular WW from Garuda either (it's easy to see solo WW when tanking Garuda + Chirada because they normally stagger WW and Downburst); I'd imagine it may be the difference of trait-ed Protect, but I don't remember it hitting that hard with the number of dual-SCH runs I've ran either.

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

the most I have experienced is 4.5-5k damage (unmitigated damage without def cds) from BOTH Garuda and Suparna.

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1. You always have shield oath on for 20% damage reduction. That brings damage up to 5.7-6.25k
2. Your healer must have had Adloqium or Stoneskin on you. It's much easier to eat double WW when your healer knows what they're doing.

@Skull_Angel; @Lemon8or Thank you, both are valid point. But my statement was abouy whether a melee DPS eating one Wicked Wheel is a viable strategy, by having the off tank taking Suparna, instead of Chirada.

Skull_Angel said a singular unmitugated Wicked Wheel goes no more than 4k. Lemon, in respond to my point on double Wicked Wheel, stated 6k from two WW.

In that respect, a DPS with should not die from eating one Wicked Wheel with the assistance of healer. Whereas common strategy on having main tank take chirada would force dps to take double WW thus instant death.

Suparna only wicked wheels while Chirada is still alive. Being that when Chirada is off tanked she will usually be focused and killed first before melee dps move on to Suparna, they never have to worry about double wicked wheels, only the tank does.

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

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I stated "not much more than 4k"; I can't give exacts, but in my VIT build I hover at nearly 8.6k and an unmitigated WW has taken me to slightly less than half my HP (I may not have been fully topped off).

As to whether letting melee eat WW is viable or not, it really stresses the healers. When my healers see Friction being cast you can hear the shit storm that is pre-casting shields on 2 tanks, haha; this is besides the point that it is an easily avoidable attack if you pay attention to the tell-tail sign that it will be coming (Friction being cast).

This is a silly discussion. Melee should absolutely not get hit by WW. I'll take a loss of 1000~ damage before I'll purposefully waste the healers' time.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

This is a silly discussion. Melee should absolutely not get hit by WW. I'll take a loss of 1000~ damage before I'll purposefully waste the healers' time.

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Originally Posted by Skull_Angel

I stated "not much more than 4k"; I can't give exacts, but in my VIT build I hover at nearly 8.6k and an unmitigated WW has taken me to slightly less than half my HP (I may not have been fully topped off).

As to whether letting melee eat WW is viable or not, it really stresses the healers. When my healers see Friction being cast you can hear the shit storm that is pre-casting shields on 2 tanks, haha; this is besides the point that it is an easily avoidable attack if you pay attention to the tell-tail sign that it will be coming (Friction being cast).

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Of course it stresses the healer. Everyone has already stated that it'll be ideal for melee to dodge Wicked Wheel etc. But my method is just a no-brainer to accommodate those melee that can't dodge anything by placing melee's responsibility and spread it to the raid group and to effectively down garuda.

Most duty finder (or some PUG) groups would most likely do not contain melee that is skill enough to dodge. You can think of this as a similar method as people doing T2 enrage to get easy loot.

Whether it is the right way to play the game... that is another matter to discuss, really.

It really takes no skill to dodge WW if you're not tanking, that's the point that people are trying to make; if there are melee in the party and they're going to be in-range for it, politely give them a heads up on what to look for and let them know it's easily avoidable, most people that have issues with getting hit by it have been grateful for the information and end up nailing it within a few runs at most. And, if that doesn't work out use one of the many other strategies that remove them from any danger of getting hit by WW or find another player/pug. Sorry if that sounds callous, but you can only lead a horse to water, if they don't want to drink that is their issue.

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

But my method is just a no-brainer

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We understand that you're defending yourself to the grave, here; but I wouldn't even call it a "no-brainer". I'd just call it a "don't do that". My DRG has like 5k hp with food and I don't think I've survived getting hit by WW.. Could just be me, but it seems like a very bad idear to get hit, not a "no-brainer good enough solution". Gotta keep in mind we get hit by slipstreams or whatever the shit else. It's not just WW damage, melee have the potential to die VERY QUICKLY in this fight.

Here are the steps for EZ Mode:


Key on Garuda who will cast :
1) Slipstream (the skill that tells you wicked wheel is coming if any adds are up)
2) Down draft ( the skill that is your que to run away - there is no cast bar for this skill
3) Wicked Wheel (the skill you'll dodge every time if you have properly identified step one, and ran away on step two.)

Now - go have some fun as a melee hitting the sister that sitting next to Garuda.

So much tanksplaining in this thread, I can't even.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

tanksplaining

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I've been looking for this word XD thank you!

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I've been looking for this word XD thank you!

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Here for you, bb <3.

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Originally Posted by Asdamine

Skull_Angel said a singular unmitugated Wicked Wheel goes no more than 4k. Lemon, in respond to my point on double Wicked Wheel, stated 6k from two WW.

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I forgot to make it clear that Adloqium and Stoneskin brings the damage double WW should have done above 6k. On a i90 PLD, that's an additional 1.5k totaling 8k damage so single WW goes 4k sounds about right. I've seen 4.2k from a single WW on my warrior without any mitigation or stoneskin/adloqium before so I doubt melee dps can "just eat one" without healer knowing to place those two skills on them and that takes GCD away from the healers so they can't be healing tanks.

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Originally Posted by Skull_Angel

but you can only lead a horse to water, if they don't want to drink that is their issue.

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I know right? But none of the melee I met can actually dodge despite repeated explanation, so I have taken upon myself to carry them through it. Surprisingly you can carry something through extreme primals just like you do in Titan HM... :/

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

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Seen 4k monk survived it, lol.

I am not exactly trying to defend myself but instead querying about how much people receive damage from one Wicked Wheel (because I know I could be in the wrong). But in every repsonse, people just saying their own thing without replying directly on "how much I, as a DPS, received damage from a singular wicked wheel".

The whole reason why I posted what I posted was because I carried a group of 2 melee DPS in 5 continuous Garuda runs without a single wipe by simply swaping Suparna and Chirada. So I know it can be done. But I have not yet got a confirmation from any body who used this method and not survive it.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

I forgot to make it clear that Adloqium and Stoneskin brings the damage double WW should have done above 6k. On a i90 PLD, that's an additional 1.5k totaling 8k damage so single WW goes 4k sounds about right. I've seen 4.2k from a single WW on my warrior without any mitigation or stoneskin/adloqium before so I doubt melee dps can "just eat one" without healer knowing to place those two skills on them and that takes GCD away from the healers so they can't be healing tanks.

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Thanks, I will try it again and confirm the figures. I will come back later with the results.