So everyone is complaining on how the markets havecrappedcrashed and singing the chorus to that REM song "It’s the end of the world as we know it". So I thought about how we can fix this. I have seen posts that complain about this, that, and the other. These posts just seem to be addressing the SYMPTOMS not the real underlying problem (at-least in my eyes).
The way I see it, it’s not a matter of the Market Boards/Undercutting/taxes/fees, but more of over-supply and no demand. I hope to address this in my solution below that will benefit the entire community in general.
• The first thing I would do is to revert back to the old v 1.0 style of materia melding. By that I mean, once you get past the "safe" 100% chance of success, if you failed you lost the item you were melding, catalyst, the materia you were melding, and the materia that was already attached. Here is my example from empircial evidence. I burned through about 30+ Woolen Gaskins just to get 1 HQ one that had 3 Materia IVs attached. So what does that equal 30 Pairs of pants and about 61 materia catalysts and about 61 materia IVs. Now that is just for a tri-melded item, look at the costs of doing a 4-meld or 5-meld. People who had that were either rich or un-godly lucky. So doing this will help de-saturate the current market because, using my example, more Woolen Gaskins will be bought (crafters will be happy),a crap-tona-lot of materia will be bought up (DoW/DoM will be happy), more catalysts will be bought up (DoL will be happy, and as a side bonus, more people will be SBing rather than F.A.T.E. grinding.
• Second thing I would do is have the creation of "super" materia levels. Let us call level 2 "Shiny", Level 3 "Focused", and Level 4 "Bad-Ass". I want this, because as of right now, once you meld materia to gear it would be stupid for you to convert them since you are getting basically a crappy materia for something that might have 5 materia melded. So the theory behind this would be, to create "Shiny" materia, you need to convert an item which has materia attached. The more materia and higher the materia grade you have the better the "shiny" Materia you receive in return. "Shiny" materia would have better stats then regular materia. Now to create "Focused" materia, you need to convert an item that has "shiny" materia. For "Bad-Ass" you need gear converted with "Focused" Materia.
Now, to combat the people that will say there are caps on gear, we allow “Shiny”, “Focused”, and “Bad-Ass” to go over cap. Say “Shiny” is +50% over cap, “Focused” +100% over cap, and “Bad-Ass” removal of any cap.
I still want Tiers like they have now but I want to add Levels. Again this will only benefit because you will be burning though catalyst/materia/gear and making everyone work to get this and it would be fun.
Thoughts and Constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated and welcomed
My way to Fix the Markets/Economy
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01-09-2014, 07:01 AMWulfiesMy way to Fix the Markets/Economy
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01-09-2014, 07:13 AMXystic
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01-09-2014, 09:02 AMVisgoroth1987
I agree - there is too much of an influx of items, and not enough demand to keep items selling and prices at a fair rate. I am on excalibur sitting at about 3mil and I think our highest selling item (pie or vit materia) is at 40k? I am clueless as to how to make money at the moment. It would be nice if they introduced new items and made it harder to get certain ones to drive prices back up.
Also I feel like RMT also holds a vast majority of our gil. -
01-09-2014, 03:10 PMtymora
#1 won't work because dungeon gear is readily accessible. If it breaks, it just makes crafted items even more useless. Just penalizes crafters even more.
#2 is ok. Don't mind having it around. -
01-09-2014, 06:01 PMCurrySonic
Make fun end game crafting quests or things to do.
My example would be a party craft project quest. You supply your own materials to make something for an npc or a new party crafting minigame. At the end you get rewarded based on quality (just an example).
This will increase transactions/unit time or "Amount Gil Traded"/unit time (Basically increasing the economic) because you have to supply your own materials to get a reward or participate in a fun activity. FFXIV has such a fun and unique crafting minigame/system they really should do some FUN endgame stuff with it! -
01-09-2014, 11:39 PMWulfiesHi Xystic - I am going to have to disagree with some of your post in the link. You are using "Gil in Cirulation" as just the amount that is spent on the MBs. You are not taking into account the money earned through quests and the likes (which I will grant you are small a this time) and money spent on porting/repairs/MB Fees. I believe you are trying to bleed-in "buying power" of the gil along with the "raw transactional gil" changing hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
To use your example, lets say that 100mm is changing hands each day, we do not know if that is 2 transaction for 50mm or if its 1,000 transactions at 100k. Market implications are significantly different depending on transactional volume. You are right, we as players, do not readily have this information available in an instant, but it is avail through transactional history, its just a pain to gather that type of data in a meaningful fashion. I am sure once they unlock the XML coding we will have people that will try to pull real-time data from the different boards to websites and the likes.
As I have stated above SE has implemented what I call "gil sinks" to effectively pull gil out of the market permanently. I have posted this in several posts, so here they are:
1) if you came over from 1.0 you lost 90% of the gil stored (my tens of millions of gil went to just millions of gil) :(
2) selling drops from a lvl 50 mob/gathering spot will only get you 10-12 gil at the max. Same with the high end crafting gear (i have yet to see anything crafter made that sells for over 800 gil)
3) Repair costs (till they "fixed/reduced" the rates) were just a way to suck money out of the economy.
4) Teleports! good god the amount of gil it takes to go rom Uldah to Gridana or Uldah to Limsa let alone anywhere to Mor Dhona or Coerthas. (but now they have implemented "Reduced Rates" FC "buffs" to try and dull the pain)
5) Housing - Pricing for this is outlandishly expensive to have at least for the moment and that in 3 months 80% of the FCs will have a "small" house. At least we can be thankful that this isn't as bad as I thought it would be (buying the plot, building the house, and then paying a monthly "rental fees" to keep the house cause that would be just crazy talk)
6) The 5% sales tax put at the end of the transaction to the seller for the "privilege" to sell their wares on the market.
7) the 5% on what I* call "shipping & handling" tax to the buyer because they are buying an item that is being sold in a different city.
Now given the fact that SE is making such a concerted effort to bleed money out of the market we can only assume that we will have market deflation and your "buying-power" of gil will increase. If there is market deflation you will see the "Gil in Circulation" drop but that does not necessarily mean that "the market is struggling" -
01-09-2014, 11:52 PMWulfiesHi, would you mind explaining what "it" is in your rebuttal to my first post? I haven't had my daily cup of coffee yet and its not that clear to me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tymora
The goal of 1 and 2 is to apply more demand since SE's supply-side economic strategy is blowing up in their faces if they wanted to keep crafting as a viable option in the game. I am probably wrong to think that Yoshi P. wants crafting in the game. After all, it was Tanaka that started by saying that the game will work fine even if you didn't want to do the "smash/boom" type MMO experience. -
01-10-2014, 02:37 AMXysticSilly thing is, I'm only arguing one point in that entire thread. You can only disagree with all of it or agree with it. You can't say some of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfies
All I'm saying is people need to present the gil in circulation numbers in order to support that the economy is doing good or bad.
You can't say, some of it. That is logically flawed.
Everything has already been accounted for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfies
If people spend too much porting/repairing/MB fees, they will have less to spend or will be deterred to spend what they have left on the MB. Which will be reflected in the gil in circulation numbers.
If people earn a ton of gil and now have more to spend or earn too little gil from gil generation and have too little to spend, it will be reflected in the gil in circulation numbers.
If people are hoarding gil and not spending, it will be reflected in the gil in circulation numbers.
That's why gil in circulation should be presented as evidence of a struggling economy or booming economy because it accounts everything in to the equation. -
01-10-2014, 03:51 AMWulfiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
Silly thing, if you just put a link to a post with nothing else, its hard to understand what you are trying to provide feedback to... :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
Ahhh....now there we go, that is what you are asking....You can present gil circulation, below I argued how it is avail, while not in a form that you can grab at a whim, but still information is there for the taking if you should so want:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfies
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
You are defining "Gil in Circulation" as the total gil being spent over whatever time frame you want. You have to include the Fees imposed by SE, since that is money being taken off the table and out of circulation/spent. Money spent on the boards can be likened to a pseudo discretionary funds. You have to pay for repairs (by buying the dark matter or having repair merchant repair it.) You have to pay the tax when you sell stuff on the MBs but you don't have to buy the Rose Gold Ingot that Joe Schmo is selling for 1 gil...Quote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
With all that beig said, I go back to my original post first couple of sentences:
It not a matter of gil circulation (which i have provided a way of attaining above) but more of everyone and their grandma now has a pocket crafter job(s) that is/are 50 (which is really easy to attain now.) We have a HUGE in-flux of crafted gear due to SE's supply-side economic policies they have implemented. My solution helps alleviate this in a form. I see this as only a good thing because this will only further increase, as you put it, "Gil in Circulation"Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfies
I see this as a good thing....maybe its just me :) -
01-10-2014, 04:43 AMXysticThat's not presenting the information. When we have graduates present their thesis, they do not come up and tell us, Birds fly, the information is out there if you so want it. To support your argument, that's your job to present the information, to lay claim that birds fly or in this case the economy has many underlying problems, you need to present us that information that shows us, the community, your findings are indeed supported. Telling me the information is out there but not telling me what that information indicates the economy is going in is, awkward. Then without even looking or presenting the information, you have concluded, the economy has many underlying problems, with zero evidence and at the same time have proposed ways to address an issue we haven't even confirmed yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfies
Which leaves the community at the same spot. We have no evidence currently PRESENTED to prove such claims.
Everything is accounted for in the gil in circulation numbers. It is not at the beginning or initial part of the equation. It is the product of the entire equation. Each one of those factors help determine the product of the equation. If you are failing to see this logic then I feel should not advance this concept any further. This is just the basics and you are struggling to understand that gil in circulation is the product of the entire equation, which means everything has already been factored in. Cause if they weren't, it wouldn't be the gil in circulation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfies
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01-10-2014, 05:23 AMWulfies
Ok Xystic, here is your post form your link you provided above.
You are stating that there is NO information to prove which way the economy is going. In my above post, i have shown a way to gather the data you are stating is not avail to everyone. To re-state, all that is needed is to pull the transaction history for all items to see market/economy. This of-course is using your "theory/logic" that the MB is the ONLY indication of the economyQuote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
You conveniently left out a big thing in my quote stating that once they unlock/allow XML coding for the UI peopole can write scrips/applets to run this with ease. Unfortunately, I am not that savvy with XML coding. Below is the full quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfies
Also, Please note that theory is based on empirical evidence until technology is avail to scientifically prove. Please see example of Marie Curie and her discovery of Radioactive isotopes. That whole putting x-ray plates near radium and noticing "dots" which were the radioactive isotopes that emanated from the radium. See below link from Wikipedia.
Wikipedia Link
As much as I hate using Wikipedia as a source since it is "crowd-sourced" and anyone can edit it, its the best i could find w/o copy pasting pages from Encyclopedia Britannica.
Please enlighten us with your wonderful equasion which is taking everything into account. Since you are so adamanat that everyone must provide cold hard facts to back-up their claim, please provide yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
I guess you must have a masters in economics, because all I have are the standard 4 classes I did for my bachelors and no where do I remember where currency circulation is the end-all be-all for economies. -
01-10-2014, 07:01 AMXysticI will enlighten you with your "equasion."Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfies
In order to achieve gil in circulation you need gil. No gil, means 0 gil at the end of the formulation.
(Gil Provided by Story) + (Gil Generation Methods) + (-Repairs) + (-Warping Fee) + (-All other assorted Sink Features) + (Gil lost/gain from circulation) + (-FC-lot investments) = Total gil a player has on hand to spend
The cost of any item is less than or equal to that number.
(Cost of item [less then or equal to "Total gil a player has on hand to spend"]) - (MB Fees) = Gil in circulation.
Gil in circulation is influenced heavily by the things you claim are missing.
The total amount of gil a player has can also influence his/her spending, also affecting gil in circulation.
A logical summary of this:
You claim economy is doing bad, so we need changes.
we say, please present the information to support economy is bad, so we can agree with you and look into your changes
You say, it exists but we don't have resources too extrapolate it, but eventually will, but economy is still bad so we need changes.
we go what.... so we are going to follow you on a whim?
I continue to try to explain, we need you to present your evidence, not tell us what or where to find it. My entire thread highl-lights it out to the community. You want to battle one side or the other, present the information we need. Don't tell us to go find it.... Its YOUR ARGUMENT, SUPPORT IT. -
01-10-2014, 07:56 AMAlipoprocks
I think there is one point that needs to be made. With CT, coil and myth gear easily available to everyone, there is no reason to buy crafted gear. There really is no crafted gear that is worth buying, even with materia on it.
Crafting gear is definitely worth buying, but there is nothing worth crafting except food. So there really is no reason to level a craft to make gil other than cooking.
This game desperately needs more valuable crafting recipes and craftable gear. I hope there is a plan to introduce higher ilvl crafted gear soon. -
01-11-2014, 03:53 AMShyen
watch them implement the Royal Bank of Ul'dah and credit cards so people start spending the gil they don't own for outrageous amount of fees and end up seeing the NPCs rejecting their business because they develop "poor credit"
oh, wait... -
01-11-2014, 05:38 AMDarkDedede
People just need more stuff to do. Even if they're just running in circles, give them a nice selection of circles to choose from. If the players are spending time writing long winded essays on the games forums, as opposed to playing the game, the game developers are doing something wrong. QED. The End.
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01-14-2014, 02:27 AMWulfiesFirst, please go back a re-read my first paragraph. No where do I say that the economy is good/bad/sideways. I am just trying to provide a solution to a "foreseen" problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
But your thread is basically saying that your proof is that there is no proof. /shrugQuote:
Originally Posted by Xystic
In regards to your second sentence,, I am just countering your claim that there is no way to determine which way the market is going. Once again, XML is not my strong suite, but if it was, I would be able to provide the coding to get you this information.
Regardless, here is what I believe has happened in a nutshell, with testable proof, and some extrapolation.
Theory: SE has implemented supply-side economic policies (either intended or inadvertent) to "help" new players to have an equal footing as some of the legacy players (which is, imho, stupid as they should have kept the new players away form legacy servers).
Test/proof: I was able to level my 45 cook from 45 to 49 (approx 1.2mm exp) within 20 minutes via HQ leve turn-ins.
XIV Pads Timeline Please look at the Jan 11th and Jan 12th amount for Culinarian.
Extrapolation: Now, if I can do this for culinarian, what is to stop anyone from doing this for all their DoH classes. Soon, given this "ability," we can start seeing everyone having multiple crafting class(es) at or near 50. With that everyone can create almost everything. SE has basically lowered the barrier to entry which is the basics of supply-side economics.
Solution: My above solution was to mitigate the supply currently flowing through the economy by artificially creating demand for items.
I am trying to find solutions to the problem rather than trying t point out its faults (cause lets face it, anyone can point out faults, but not may can find solutions) -
01-14-2014, 04:26 AMwhiskeybravo
The problem I see with the "Gil in Circulation" model.. How do you separate (total gil) from (gil available for spending)? For example, I have 500,000 gil. But aside from repair purchases and teleporting, I don't spend a dime (due to saving for housing). So does your equation say my 500,000 gil is in circulation, or do I have 0 gil in circulation because I'm not actually spending it? Multiply that by 1 million (or however many players there are).
Gil in circulation, also, does not tell you anything about specific purchases. Say 100 people buy 100 items for 10,000 gil each. Whoa 1 million gill in circulation, the economy must be booming! Would the economy still be "booming" if it turned out those 100 people over paid for their item, and it should of only cost 4,000 gil instead of 10,000? It still counts towards circulation, but doesn't mean it was wise purchase. So just looking at huge aggregate numbers (common problem with today's econometricians), hundreds or thousands of bad decisions can make a good economy?
I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong here, but there is no one-equation-fits-all answer for this economy or any economy in real life.
Just for shiggles here is another thought experiment, let's say you get the gil circulation numbers. By what standard are you comparing "good", "bad", "average", "amazing", etc, economic performance? How would you determine the optimal amount of gil that should be circulating in each economy? How are you going to enforce the optimal amount into circulation? These are completely arbitrary assessments, as defined by you or anyone else. You could compare this week/last week, month, year etc. But any definition of "good", "bad", etc is completely arbitrary and unrealistic. -
01-15-2014, 07:11 PMMillimidgetHumor me and explain how you did this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wulfies
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01-16-2014, 02:35 AMMilesSaintboroguhWrong, people that constantly complain on forums tend to have too much free time anyway and devs hardly listen to forum posters anyway. Not to mention forums barely even represent the player base as a whole. While maybe several dozen people here keep making the same posts over and over again, everyone else is too busy enjoying the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkDedede
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01-16-2014, 06:32 AMWulfiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Millimidget
First, head to the MBs and buy or have a buddy make you the following items:
Deviled Eggs HQ
La Noscean Toast HQ
Note #1: You have to buy HQs
Note #2: for every 1 Deviled Eggs you buy, you should buy 12 Toast. (makaes it simpler later on, trust me)
Now with your stash of food, head to T'Mokkri and choose the following Leve quests:
The Egg Files
Bread in the Clouds
Head down to the Aethyte Plaza and speak with Bango-Zango and do the turn ins. Rinse and repeat as many times as you want.
The leve quest with the toast is repeatable with the same leve, hence why i told you to buy 12 for every 1 egg. -
01-16-2014, 06:43 AMWulfiesWhat, are you some SE cheerleader or something in that SE can do no wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
First, last time i checked, this is the "oficial" FFXIV forums, this is where people tend to voice what they like or dislike in the game. This provides devs some feed-back on how to make the game more enjoyable.
Second...per your sentence, people who post have too much free time on their hands...no, people who posts are tired or waiting 2+hrs on a duty finder, getting booted with the evil 1017 or 90k god, or during constant server maintenence. If we had free time on our hands, wouldn't we be playing the game?
Third, devs do listen to the community, just because they did not listen to your idea, if you even had one, does not mean they are ignoring it.
Lastly, before i get of my soapbox, if you do not have anything constructive to say on my posts, don't say anything at all. Do your personal attacks somewhere else. -
01-16-2014, 11:07 PMOSUBuckeye4^^thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Wulfies
You can repeat the same strategy from level 10 up.
Getting to level 10 is the most time consuming part... from there, just figure out what leve at your level range demands what item, buy a few HQ versions, stock up on low quality (CHEAP) versions of the other stuff... spam turn-in's for massive XP.