Summoner Enkindle

The cool down for Enkindle should be lowered to 60s with the lost of thunder. Enkindle has an insanely long cool down for the amount of damage a 300s cool down on a skill should do an insane amount of damage Summoners should be able to do 33% damage to a bosses health with a 300s cd. Let's say a Summoner on 196dps Enkindle with it's 300s cool down should at least do 6000 damage. Also if the cool down for Enkindle is lowered to 60s it wouldn't be op because Summoners only use it when Rouse and Spur is up.

Blizzard 2 is a useless replacement for thunder it doesn't fit in with the Summoners play style I tried to find a use for it but I ended up taking it out of my rotation and ignoring it.

No. Still no.

They aren't going to buff SMN DPS when they just finished nerfing us. We're still top DPS in all the ST end-game content and are near the top of the list on AoE encounters.

I get it, long CD, level 50 skill, should do rediculous damage, right? Well, if this was a single player game, sure. But in a world where we already out-DPS everyone else by 10-20%, how can you possibly justify buffing us?

Blizzard II is AoE filler, i.e. what you do when you've already put out Miasma 2, Shadow Flare and Bane'd your DoTs to everything.

I'm not exactly sure this is the correct approach. If you want to lower the cooldown while also increasing the damage, you would have to put on some heavy restrictions. To create the affect your looking for, it would be more along the lines of an "Execute" maneuver. Basically, it should only be useable after the target has reached a near death situation (like being at 30% of max HP).

SMN by design isn't ment to be a bursty class. The reason they are top dps (even post nerf) is because they are a DoT class. The benefit of DoTs is that if they are allowed to complete their duration, they will output the most DPS over a long period of time. You cannot give too many "pieces of the puzzle" to one class without detracting favor from other classes.

Lower the CD and have Enkindle use up an Aether mark.

Like most smns, when I saw this ability I wanted it. When I got it I was slightly disappointed. A very long cool down for an ability that doesn't top fester? It isn't always a disappointment. I have seen it hit for over 1k sometimes and other times I've seen it hit for 600. I've I crit with fester I've broken 1300 a few times. Other times I've had fester do 400,600,800,1000 ect. Very jumpy. Since enkindle takes so long to recast I'd feel better if it was more likely to do my top dmg every cast.

Enkindle seems like its useless unless you actual employ it for what it is. In terms of power its basically an AOE Fester with no cast prereqs and no target cap.

While Ifrit's is the most powerful, lolIfrit. Most people will end up using Garuda's Aerial Blast. Titan's is also good for add control for locking down lots of weak enemies. I use his on Haukke HMs first boss a lot. You figure that my Enkindle does something around 890 damage (no parses, but I remember seeing that number a couple times recently). If I use it and hit 7 skellingtons, that's 6230 damage from a move that requires no MP. From a DOT class. You expect that kind of effect from a beefed out BLM slinging AOE spells, not the little guy with the status effects. So we can only do it every 5 minutes to keep us from being broken.

Also helps to use a macro. Mine looks like this:

/p Now <pet>! Show them what you've really got!
/ac Rouse <me>
/wait 1
/ac Spur <me>
/wait 1
/p ENKINDLE! <se.7>
/ac Enkindle <t>

I had a macro like that but sometimes it would skip rouse or spur. I've read the reason macros do this but I can't recall it. Since I don't want to use enkindle without rouse+spur I use this setup

/ac "Rouse" <me>
/ac "Spur" <me>
/ac "Enkindle" <t>

I have to hit the button 3 times but I haven't seen it skip one step unless it was on cooldown

I haven't thought about using titans enkindle for that boss fight but now that you mention it I wanna try it. It's nice to see people experimenting and not using just garuda for contagion. I use ifrit mostly on the way to the boss and garuda for the actual boss. I want inferno to be aoe and not a cone because sometimes I've placed him wrong and didn't hit everyone. While were on the subject. What does the gold circle from earthen fury actually do and would it stack with shadow flare? >.>

The gold circle causes a weak DoT effect to any enemies that step in it. Like 15 potency for 10 seconds or something to that effect. And it does stack with Shadow Flare.

Also, please don't use Ifrit. He really is useless and horrible compared to Garuda, much as it pains me to say that.

I use Ifrit when fighting Ash in Haukke Manor since the ground attacks silence, making Garuda pretty much useless.

enkindle vs flare :rolleyes:

why not keep it's cooldown but put its power on the level of astral flows in ff11?

I know people aren't keen on hearing about this but buffing enkindle would be very concerning for pvp.

For the damage Enkindle outputs, it isn't great most of the time. That can't be disputed. But it is a huge situational tool. It is not a single target nuke. I use it for Phase 4 of Turn 4 with Garuda-Egi. A free, off global cooldown 1k+ damage to the bugs and the rooks, thank you.

That being said, I do think that its cooldown should be reduced for how it is right now. Maybe greatly reduced with added cost. Like 2-3 minute, consumes stack of aetherflow.

I would use Ifrit's (since the added dot does cause more damage overall) if his enkindle wasn't conic...which is a pain to aim to hit everything.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

We're still top DPS in all the ST end-game content and are near the top of the list on AoE encounters.

I get it, long CD, level 50 skill, should do rediculous damage, right? Well, if this was a single player game, sure. But in a world where we already out-DPS everyone else by 10-20%, how can you possibly justify buffing us?

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Oh I know a few over Zealous DRG that would strongly disagree with this, don't you know DPS is RAAAAWWWWR DRG!!!!! then MNK then *insert DPS not SMN here* and last of all lolSMN according to our toothpick wielding brethren.

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Originally Posted by Aphrini

Oh I know a few over Zealous DRG that would strongly disagree with this, don't you know DPS is RAAAAWWWWR DRG!!!!! then MNK then *insert DPS not SMN here* and last of all lolSMN according to our toothpick wielding brethren.

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Yeah, I've met a good number of people who contend their class is the best. Then I run some end-game content with them. And that settles that.

The problem with Enkindle is the cool down is so long for the 800 damage. Fester's cool down is 15s and it does 800 damage with all dots up but Summoner's won't use it is every 15s because it uses a aerflow stack. Enkindle is the Summoner's Ultimate Attack and with a 300s cool down it should be doing 3600 damage without Rouse and Spur. If Enkindle's cool down was lowered to 30s keeping the damage at 800 Summoner's still wouldn't be OP if Enkindle could only be used after Rouse and Spur.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The problem with Enkindle is the cool down is so long for the 800 damage. Fester's cool down is 15s and it does 800 damage with all dots up but Summoner's won't use it is every 15s because it uses a aerflow stack. Enkindle is the Summoner's Ultimate Attack and with a 300s cool down it should be doing 3600 damage without Rouse and Spur. If Enkindle's cool down was lowered to 30s keeping the damage at 800 Summoner's still wouldn't be OP if Enkindle could only be used after Rouse and Spur.

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How can you justify giving SMN a DPS increase when they are already the best?

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Originally Posted by Seobit

I know people aren't keen on hearing about this but buffing enkindle would be very concerning for pvp.

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This is EXACTLY what people are missing. The changes made were for PvP, and all future changes are going to be around keeping PvP balanced or as close to balance as it can be. Having our PvE abilities the same as PvP is going to change this into a WOW clone, plain and simple.

If you shorten the cooldown on Enkindle, it will turn into a very powerful PvP attack (espicially with Ifrit) and make Summoners way to powerful, it isn't hurting our PvE, and the loss of Thunder, yes we lose a dot, but you know what, our Egi's got buffed. Our Egi's are making up the difference of that missing Thunder, so we weren't actually nerfed, we just got what people wanted before, our Egi's to matter more.

I would always LOVE to have Summoner's buffed and buffed and buffed, but people need to stop thinking we are suffering, we aren't. Thunder loss = Egi buff.

And what is the use of giving us Blizzard 2?? PVP!!! When that monk or dragoon charges you and starts kickin our butts, why not try a macro combo of Surecast and Blizzard 2. Now you just set it so Blizzard 2 can NOT be interuppted and get it off, bound the 1 or 2 melee in place, you pop sprint and run. then the chase begins of you spamming ruin 2 and bio while running, sic your pet on them too.

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Originally Posted by Aphrini

Oh I know a few over Zealous DRG that would strongly disagree with this, don't you know DPS is RAAAAWWWWR DRG!!!!! then MNK then *insert DPS not SMN here* and last of all lolSMN according to our toothpick wielding brethren.

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Summoner's are still top in dps, followed by monk, dragoon and black mage are tied and bard is holding the rear. BUT that doesn't mean every single fight it will be that way. Every boss is different, fights that require a lot of movement will move black mages down and bards up, fights with a lot of boss aoe cause monks and dragoons to back off and stop dpsing. Summoner's and bards are the only 2 classes that are always dpsing whether we are moving or not, but again Summoner's do need about 6 to 8 seconds to start their dps up so we start out horrible, by the end of the fight we are tops and at the end of the dungeon we are tops. People need to stop focusing on one thing and look at the overall picture.

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Originally Posted by Hiroradius

This is EXACTLY what people are missing. The changes made were for PvP, and all future changes are going to be around keeping PvP balanced or as close to balance as it can be. Having our PvE abilities the same as PvP is going to change this into a WOW clone, plain and simple.

If you shorten the cooldown on Enkindle, it will turn into a very powerful PvP attack (espicially with Ifrit) and make Summoners way to powerful, it isn't hurting our PvE, and the loss of Thunder, yes we lose a dot, but you know what, our Egi's got buffed. Our Egi's are making up the difference of that missing Thunder, so we weren't actually nerfed, we just got what people wanted before, our Egi's to matter more.

I would always LOVE to have Summoner's buffed and buffed and buffed, but people need to stop thinking we are suffering, we aren't. Thunder loss = Egi buff.

And what is the use of giving us Blizzard 2?? PVP!!! When that monk or dragoon charges you and starts kickin our butts, why not try a macro combo of Surecast and Blizzard 2. Now you just set it so Blizzard 2 can NOT be interuppted and get it off, bound the 1 or 2 melee in place, you pop sprint and run. then the chase begins of you spamming ruin 2 and bio while running, sic your pet on them too.

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First and foremost, PvP can be balanced separately from PvE.

They've proved as much by adding PvP-specific skills, making magic 100% interruptible in PvP but not in PvE, and changing Bards to do less damage the farther away they are from their targets, so saying they have to be balanced together is kind of moot.

Second, Egi was buffed? I'd love to hear an explanation on how not doing anything to the Egi buffed them.

Keep in mind that all of those buffs and enkindle are off the GCD when I use it I do:

Rouse>Ruin2>Spur>Ruin2>Enkindle that way you aren't wasting your GCD as you throw it up.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Second, Egi was buffed? I'd love to hear an explanation on how not doing anything to the Egi buffed them.

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Garuda benefits from spell speed, that's a direct buff.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

Garuda benefits from spell speed, that's a direct buff.

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You sir, get a medal. :)

I think Titan does as well. Watching him beat up mobs for me now, it looks like he has Haste on compared to how slow he used to attack.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

How can you justify giving SMN a DPS increase when they are already the best?

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If you consider Summoner's damage in a vacuum there the dps but I've ran with Black Mages, Dragons and Monks who melt mobs to 50% of their health before I even apply my dots so as a whole Summoner's damage is low but constant. Buffing Enkindle would put us more at the classic level of the Summoner and the damage of is still to low for a 300s cool down. If Square keeps the 300s cool down they should buff the damage to 3600 but if the cool down was reduced to 30s Enkindle should still do 800 damage and be used only after Rouse and Spur is activated. To justify a 300s cool down my Garuda Egi Aerial blast should do 3600 damage and leave rotating Tornados on the area for 30s and Ifit's Inferno should do 4000 damage and incinerate the entire screen and Titan Egi's Earthen fury should level the entire area dealing 3000 damage

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Originally Posted by Akiza

If you consider Summoner's damage in a vacuum there the dps but I've ran with Black Mages, Dragons and Monks who melt mobs to 50% of their health before I even apply my dots so as a whole Summoner's damage is low but constant. Buffing Enkindle would put us more at the classic level of the Summoner and the damage of is still to low for a 300s cool down. If Square keeps the 300s cool down they should buff the damage to 3600 but if the cool down was reduced to 30s Enkindle should still do 800 damage and be used only after Rouse and Spur is activated. To justify a 300s cool down my Garuda Egi Aerial blast should do 3600 damage and leave rotating Tornados on the area for 30s and Ifit's Inferno should do 4000 damage and incinerate the entire screen and Titan Egi's Earthen fury should level the entire area dealing 3000 damage

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What are we talking about here, the ability to kill single trash, somethign anyone can do, or the ability to kill the important content, like bosses?

Summoner's damage is not low. In all end game content.. Coils, Extreme Primals, I am doing top DPS, consistently. Yes, DoTs give constant damage, but just because we don't burst out huge Flares like BLM or whatever, doesn't mean our overall DPS is low. Our overall DPS is very high, the highest. There is no way to justify giving SMN any more DPS, at all.

I'm sorry you can't keep up with Black Mages, Dragoons or Monks, but there are some of us who can, and are able to surpass them, by a good deal. The only way you could justify making Enkindle deal thousands of damage, would be to triple or quadruple the cooldown. If we had a 1200s cooldown on Enkindle, sure, go ahead and make it deal 4000 damage. I'd rather have an ability that I can use on every other Spur/Rouse, rather than something I only get to use once a fight at most.

What is the obsession here with huge damage? Because they did it in single player games? That is the arena of Black Mages, leave it to them to smack huge groups of stuff for huge damage. We don't need to push any further into that territory.

I would like to see Enkindle more flashier and have bigger aoe range. I agree with T0rin, atleast for now, that dmg and CD doesn't need to be changed as we just got a nerf, and according to SE we still do most DPS with the nerf.

I don't care about buffing the damage, it's pretty good with other cds. but the cd needs to be lowered.

I don't get those who must ruin1/2 spam every gCD that they have nothing else to do.
You'll run out of mana.

As for OP's post - no, Thunder is a minor DPS loss, we're still the best DPS in the game, we only lack heavy burst like a BLM's double flare.
The class is really fine as it is as far as available content goes.

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Originally Posted by Darksword

/p Now <pet>! Show them what you've really got!
/ac Rouse <me>
/wait 1
/ac Spur <me>
/wait 1
/p ENKINDLE! <se.7>
/ac Enkindle <t>

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Awesome Macro :D

What if Enkindle used like 3 stacks of aetherflow... and did moderate dmg like 1000~2000 while your festers did 3000 ( assuming you did 1000 per Fester) would that be better?
I could see this being used for mobs when we needed, so it would be a high-cost/risk for high reward/bringing important mobbs down a bit more then usual, sacrificing single target dmg festers?

Dont rage at me... I'm only dreaming....

The balance of classes right now for Extreme Primals and Twintania is quite spot on. There is no need for drastic changes.
Enkindle is definitely interesting and the high cooldown makes it a "once or twice" per fight, or 3 times for Twintania as I use it on the 3 drakes at the beginning.

I would definitely wish the relation between summoner and "pet" was more important than it is right now though.
Perhaps with future summons, like Shiva, Ramuh, Leviathan...

The issue is with Summoners if you need something to die fast than we are screwed damage wise also Monks, Dragoons and Black Mages can spam Jump, Flare and Dragon Kick to do crazy damage and no other class has a 300s cool down on there ultimate attack except us. Flare has a 2.5s cool down and it does 1100 damage which is more damage than Enkindle with a 300s cool down that's the main complaint about our ultimate attack. If Flare, Jump or any other class Ultimate attack was counted in terms of overall damage Summoner's would be slightly behind a Monk so Enkindle doing 3600 damage with the cool down staying the same wouldn't make Summoner's overpowered because Black Mages can still spam Flare.

SMN has excellent burst through bane + fester and most targets that require to be killed quickly are susceptible to this tactic. You also have rouse and spur as burst abilities. Enkindle is just icing.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The issue is with Summoners if you need something to die fast than we are screwed damage wise also Monks, Dragoons and Black Mages can spam Jump, Flare and Dragon Kick to do crazy damage and no other class has a 300s cool down on there ultimate attack except us. Flare has a 2.5s cool down and it does 1100 damage which is more damage than Enkindle with a 300s cool down that's the main complaint about our ultimate attack. If Flare, Jump or any other class Ultimate attack was counted in terms of overall damage Summoner's would be slightly behind a Monk so Enkindle doing 3600 damage with the cool down staying the same wouldn't make Summoner's overpowered because Black Mages can still spam Flare.

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We have some burst potential.. Bane+Fester, Energy Drain weaved into GCD of Ruin II, etc. Our class is _designed_ to not have the same burst potential as the other DPS classes, because given our steady DoT damage, we're able to put out significant damage over the course of a 30s+ fight. If we had the best sustained damage and the best burst damage (which is more or less what you are advocating for), why would anyone play any other class?

We have the Burst damage we do on purpose, because other classes are _supposed_ to be better in that aspect. We have the best sustained damage, and you should be happy with that.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

We have some burst potential.. Bane+Fester, Energy Drain weaved into GCD of Ruin II, etc. Our class is _designed_ to not have the same burst potential as the other DPS classes, because given our steady DoT damage, we're able to put out significant damage over the course of a 30s+ fight. If we had the best sustained damage and the best burst damage (which is more or less what you are advocating for), why would anyone play any other class?

We have the Burst damage we do on purpose, because other classes are _supposed_ to be better in that aspect. We have the best sustained damage, and you should be happy with that.

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Square should remove our dots and make Summoners a combination of Black Magic and White Magic like Rydia and give Scholars the Dot skills

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Square should remove our dots and make Summoners a combination of Black Magic and White Magic like Rydia and give Scholars the Dot skills

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So, something that will never happen. Ok, glad this thread happened.

Okay removing the dots isn't going to happen but making the Black Mage the Summoner's sub job is possible.

No way should enkindle be buffed at all, in PvP its a great skill!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Spur and Rouse do not stack, right?
So there's no point in using them both at the same time?