Don't think the monk buffs are going to work out all that well.

If they increase the duration of GL I will just be running low/out of tp on more fights than I do now. If they increase the damage output its going to cause more threat problems then I already have. If they increase the attack speed I am going to run out of TP even faster.

None of that really seems all that great to me. Maybe it is intended that monks have balance damage, threat and TP but it seems to me at some point monk is going to cap out on what it can really do.

I am not that well geared yet but every fight I am either running out of TP (t1, titan), threat capping (t2), or really running out of TP (t4). Doesn't seem right that more gear leeds to doing less because resources run out. That seems like a design flaw the fact that monk has no way to regen TP on their own and no threat reducing abilities makes me think they wanted it this way. I just don't understand why.

Problem with Monks is that they DPS way too fast. This is why Skill Speed is retarded even if the bonus you'd get was worthwhile, because you'd be using your skills in a rate that is unmanageable for your TP regen. And since Invigorate was made mainly with DRGs in mind, it has an extremely long cooldown because DRGs barely have TP issues to begin with (we are TP friendly because we have slower and more damaging attacks).

Monks are going to need something like 'Fists of Water' that gives them TP for each auto attack or something.

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Originally Posted by Mekhana

Monks are going to need something like 'Fists of Water' that gives them TP for each auto attack or something.

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They could add that to fists of wind to make it suck less and that would be perfect. I am all for more things to manage like that. What I don't like is the "don't use any cross class skills and slow down your attacks in general for a bit" or "don't aoe because your going to run out of TP in ten seconds".

They caught on that warriors where having TP issues and are taking steps to help them out. Maybe we get lucky and they notice monks as well. I love skill speed and wish I could stack it. Its the type of play style I have always enjoyed but they found a way to make it not so fun here and I hope they do something about it.

Hmm. I pretty much never run out of TP outside Coil. My skill speed is about 480 at present. In Coil as long as I Invigorate as soon as I'm down to about 540 TP it'll last me for the rest of the fight. If it's going longer than expected it'll come off CD again before I'm out.

Using Fracture too much can strain it, and sometimes I ignore it (mainly in Coil). Fracture's a nice DoT, but if you use it every single rotation in any Coil-length boss then it's asking for trouble. In Turn 4 I'd avoid Rock Breaker altogether.

A Greased Lightning duration buff wouldn't matter in Coil as you never have to disengage long enough to lose it right now anyway.

Threat capping is a bit harder, I've done coil with several tanks in my FC, with varying ranges of threat generated. On my first ever venture into there I had to stagger my attacks a little to prevent taking agro, but with all others I've been able to go all out with no consequence. Not sure what to suggest there.

Can't please everyone, huh? Even buffs make some people complain

I haven't had any harsh problem with TP, up until T2 at least as long as I'm not spamming AotD or RB in my rotations and popping Invigorate at roughly 500 TP. The cooldown on Invi is short enough to be up again without dropping too far in TP in-between. It's a bit rougher when you're silencing ADS, but there should always be someone else in the party helping out with it.

Regarding aggro, the tank should be ways ahead of you unless the fellow is slacking on the job in my experience. It might be that you output more DPS than I do, I can't tell from here.

As for the buffs, I remember them being more or less "More DPS from behind" and "Improved Greased Lightning bonuses". I do agree that Monks might have enjoyed a better stack mechanic for GL, as in you lose a stack level rather than dropping the buff entirely when the timer runs out. Would have made my day for sure. It would however be plain out silly to provide monks with some easy way to regain TP in large amounts, since it would invalidate the resource.

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Originally Posted by Lecreuset

Can't please everyone, huh? Even buffs make some people complain

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Considering MNK doesn't need DPS buffs, they need QoL changes, I would complain.

Hmm, let's see, a resource that regenerates in combat at a fixed pace, cannot be replenished by potions and is only affected by a very limited number of skills? Oh, right, rogue energy and haste problem. Old one.

It took Blizzard some time to realize that combat resource generation speed needs to scale with attack speed. Rogues had the same problem back in the day - when haste rating on gear reached really high values it became apparent that fixed energy generation (and other similar resources like Runes and Focus) cannot catch up anymore.

SE cloned a lot of WoW stuff, along with many old WoW's problems. Needs a fix, but there's no telling when/if it's going to happen.
It will get more and more apparent with time, as new tiers of gear (think ilvl 100 and above) appear while level cap stays at 50, since gear will have more and more skill speed on it.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Considering MNK doesn't need DPS buffs, they need QoL changes, I would complain.

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Oh well we get a free buff cause noobs cant play the class :P

The greased lightning buffs are still pretty vague, could be anything tbh. And the increased damage from behind promotes using more skills, many monks simply used flank combos and dot's with very minimal damage loss.

They could just increase the damage buffs from each level of GL (or stack it all at the third level) and keep the skill speed the same. But I agree that skill speed is trash until they do something about TP regen.

I'm thinking the are just going to increase GL duration to 15sec and maybe add 2% to attack and SkSp buff. As for the TP T4 is the only place I have some issues. But here's the thing on T4, As your group gets better gear (assuming static) TP starts to become less of an issue during AoE spam because everything gets burned down faster.

I would rather see Twin Snake buff get increased by 3-5 secs than GL get a buff.

Another thing to I use to have over 500 SkSp but in all turns I was burning through TP way to fast.

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Originally Posted by Arkista

I'm thinking the are just going to increase GL duration to 15sec and maybe add 2% to attack and SkSp buff. As for the TP T4 is the only place I have some issues. But here's the thing on T4, As your group gets better gear (assuming static) TP starts to become less of an issue during AoE spam because everything gets burned down faster.

I would rather see Twin Snake buff get increased by 3-5 secs than GL get a buff.

Another thing to I use to have over 500 SkSp but in all turns I was burning through TP way to fast.

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If the buff to GL involved the speed buff, it will give monks more wiggle room with Twin Snakes.
Of course, this will lead to more TP issues most likely, but it's tough to say yet. Either way, buffing the Skill Speed of GL will compliment the buffs to "behind damage" (i.e. True Strike and Bootshine).

I hope GL sees no duration increase, but maybe it'll be more helpful for the extreme primals.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

If they increase the duration of GL I will just be running low/out of tp on more fights than I do now.

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How? It's not like GL causes you to use more TP.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

If the buff to GL involved the speed buff, it will give monks more wiggle room with Twin Snakes.
Of course, this will lead to more TP issues most likely, but it's tough to say yet. Either way, buffing the Skill Speed of GL will compliment the buffs to "behind damage" (i.e. True Strike and Bootshine).

I hope GL sees no duration increase, but maybe it'll be more helpful for the extreme primals.


How? It's not like GL causes you to use more TP.

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Greased lightning lowers GCD, if they raise the percentage values, then it is the same effect as getting more skill speed. (Good for me, I like skill speed).

I don't see how you could ever have TP problems unless you aren't killing something fast enough or just blowing through aoes all the time.
Same with the threat, you are a monk if you pull threat your tanks must be bad.

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Originally Posted by Etgar

I don't see how you could ever have TP problems unless you aren't killing something fast enough or just blowing through aoes all the time.
Same with the threat, you are a monk if you pull threat your tanks must be bad.

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When you get full i90 you will see why MNK's pull so much hate. As for the lack of TP issues I hear most MNKs having this is due to taking dots out of their rotation, which can result in a major loss of DPS. With my old build I could blow all of my TP in less than 3 minutes using no AoE's. You are highly confused if you think MNKs don't have TP problems when going all out.

Skill speed gets you three Impulse Drives without breaking rotation, at about .032% speed increase or 2.42 base GCD (though a bit risky there). After that it's a detriment. For BRD and DRG it's always a detriment. Spell Speed, similarly, probably isn't necessary even for the BLM Quick-Flare rotation (Fire III, Flare, Trans, Blizzard IIx2, repeat), since I can strip off all Spell Speed gear and still pull it off with the tick hitting within .3 seconds of Transpose. I really don't see a single use except for healing for it. Lets you run out of resource faster with no bonuses...

Having Speed affect regen would at least make it an asset instead of a liability, though not really any different from Det or Crit unless it allows a change in rotation given non-Speed-affected buffs. DRGs might be able to get one more Thrust combo off before Disembowel fades and they have to reapply, and Monks could throw even out more TP-burning Impulse Drives. In the case of mana, it'd be useless for BLMs, unnecessary for SMN, useful to healers, fairly useful to tanks, and would essentially allow Bards to tick their Ballad and Paeon and mana returns faster, and maybe even improve dps once they can throw out an extra Heavy Shot (which would take ~11.1% more haste... hard to get that much even when we don't want it). The problem is how we split those effects across Skill and Spell speed. Bard especially seems like it'd be at a loss as to which is more useful. Furthermore, if DoTs (buffs, of sort, in their own right, especially for physical dps) were also affected, Skill/Spell speed would create no variance at all. It'd just be identical, but faster. Pretty dull.

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A pipe-dream, off the subject of Skill/Spell Speed:

What if we were to make the other Fists useful, especially Wind... preferably in a unique way? Any ideas, just out of curiosity?

I'm mostly remembering some ideas from the Beta forums that asked for unique stacking buffs for each type of Fist or unique effects from Internal Release, but I don't have anything concrete.
I've also generally associated Opo-Opo with Wind (fast, and somewhat utilitarian, yet still graceful), Raptor with Earth (buff/piercing/debuff, sturdy sort of moves), and Couerl with Fire (evocative, heavy, oppressing attacks).

Maybe you could just say bard play tp song plz?

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Originally Posted by raikage

Maybe you could just say bard play tp song plz?

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When the healers need Ballad and BLMs and Bards themselves want Foe?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

When the healers need Ballad and BLMs and Bards themselves want Foe?

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The only reason a BRD should want Foe is a selfless desire to make the BLM/SMN/SCH/WHM happy.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

When the healers need Ballad and BLMs and Bards themselves want Foe?

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yes that maybe the case now but we need to be talking 2.1 where more melee might be in a party now that the buff will be there.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

When you get full i90 you will see why MNK's pull so much hate. As for the lack of TP issues I hear most MNKs having this is due to taking dots out of their rotation, which can result in a major loss of DPS. With my old build I could blow all of my TP in less than 3 minutes using no AoE's. You are highly confused if you think MNKs don't have TP problems when going all out.

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Oh thanks for being so understanding of my lack of Ilevel man.
I keep up all my dots on target, if it's worth so to do it.
Guess you need to just level better management.

i...don't play a mnk(sadly, i should get on it) but
don't monks have an ability that changes damage to earth? so benefit from foe requiem as well?
or would that only be auto attack damage?

still..i see the point about TP issues on mnk...everything as sch/blm is way to easy mp wise (just tried out T1 for the first time today so can't speak much on that, but for primals/dungeons, no issues with mp for either, well no mp issues for blm is obvious...)

mnk af2 looks like a street fighter costume lol, i love it.

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Originally Posted by Adaline

i...don't play a mnk(sadly, i should get on it) but
don't monks have an ability that changes damage to earth? so benefit from foe requiem as well?
or would that only be auto attack damage?

still..i see the point about TP issues on mnk...everything as sch/blm is way to easy mp wise (just tried out T1 for the first time today so can't speak much on that, but for primals/dungeons, no issues with mp for either, well no mp issues for blm is obvious...)

mnk af2 looks like a street fighter costume lol, i love it.

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The first time I did T1 I ran out of TP, but when you get more gear things die faster and it's not a problem anymore.

The fist of ..... moves have a old tooltip. They don't do the elemental damage they say they do, nor do they drain mana like a bard playing a song.

I was worried about our hate management too as Im usually 2nd or 3rd hate in every group I run with. We could really use some enmity mangement. But they could just easily ad tp regen to greased to balance out the skill speed gain and requirements.


Side note. I never really have tp issues unless im using ID and fracture both.

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Originally Posted by Adaline

i...don't play a mnk(sadly, i should get on it) but
don't monks have an ability that changes damage to earth? so benefit from foe requiem as well?
or would that only be auto attack damage?

still..i see the point about TP issues on mnk...everything as sch/blm is way to easy mp wise (just tried out T1 for the first time today so can't speak much on that, but for primals/dungeons, no issues with mp for either, well no mp issues for blm is obvious...)

mnk af2 looks like a street fighter costume lol, i love it.

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Our "Fists Of ___" abilities sound like they should be elemental, but unless there's some kind of hidden effect they only add damage/speed/% damage reduction :)

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

Our "Fists Of ___" abilities sound like they should be elemental, but unless there's some kind of hidden effect they only add damage/speed/% damage reduction :)

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There's no hidden effect. The names of the moves (and the current tooltips) were kept from 1.23 where they actually were elemental attacks and drained MP. They're straight attack/movement speed/defense buffs now.

I don't think they want monk or dragoon to have an endless flow of attacks without some sort of TP management or assistance from bard songs.
I also don't think they want DPS classes to endlessly beat on monsters without paying some attention to their Enmity management.

If you could go all out without TP issues (essentially all the time) the problem would just manifest itself somewhere else. Then we would be getting players complaining about aggro constantly.

Unshakeable emnity on the tanks could solve that problem, but then both classes would be boring. Do you really want that?

Learn to balance DPS output with TP use. It's not like there is an issue with current content being unbeatable due to lack of dps.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

*SNIP*

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TP interaction with skill speed will cause balancing issues down the road because our only method of "TP management" is using less skills. If players are encountering minor TP bottlenecks now, what is going to happen with ilvl95 gear? ilvl100 gear? ilvl110? Imagine "managing" TP at 600 or 700 skill speed with no scaling... it would be a severe restriction, it wouldn't be fun, and it would be extremely difficult to balance vs an infinite resource class.

The best options IMO:

1. Reduce CD or increase amount of TP restored for Invigorate (temp fix)
2. Scale TP regen with skill speed (boring)
3. Add an active ability/combo to restore TP or increase TP regen (best)

I do not consider nerfiing other classes to be an option because I want every class to be "equally good" not "equally bad", if that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Mitski

TP interaction with skill speed will cause balancing issues down the road because our only method of "TP management" is using less skills. If players are encountering minor TP bottlenecks now, what is going to happen with ilvl95 gear? ilvl100 gear? ilvl110? Imagine "managing" TP at 600 or 700 skill speed with no scaling... it would be a severe restriction, it wouldn't be fun, and it would be extremely difficult to balance vs an infinite resource class.

The best options IMO:

1. Reduce CD or increase amount of TP restored for Invigorate (temp fix)
2. Scale TP regen with skill speed (boring)
3. Add an active ability/combo to restore TP or increase TP regen (best)

I do not consider nerfiing other classes to be an option because I want every class to be "equally good" not "equally bad", if that makes sense.

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I would gladly take a TP combo.

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Originally Posted by Mitski

TP interaction with skill speed will cause balancing issues down the road because our only method of "TP management" is using less skills. If players are encountering minor TP bottlenecks now, what is going to happen with ilvl95 gear? ilvl100 gear? ilvl110? Imagine "managing" TP at 600 or 700 skill speed with no scaling... it would be a severe restriction, it wouldn't be fun, and it would be extremely difficult to balance vs an infinite resource class. [...]

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This is assuming that there's no hard speed ceiling and that SS will always increase with higher iL gear. Naturally, if your scenario comes true, I too would prefer solution 3 if you would only consider Monk in a vacuum. It is possible that it is intended for us to suffer slight TP issues in order for a group of players to be forced to choose between a rock and a hard place:

Bards sing so monks can keep on trucking, but that might be DPS-ineffective if the monk is bad at her job. If the monk is a beast, the tank might lose aggro if he's not on point. It's a balancing act that would force players to not just push DPS to the limit but consider other parameters. Granted, it will feel a bit rough that you can't push maximum DPS all the time as bard but I argue that it's just as bad if you can just go full tilt all the time and rely on the system to hold no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

I would gladly take a TP combo.

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A TP combo would really make things interesting. It could make ID useful.

1) Monk buffs should not be changed. The last thing we need is them dumbing down one of the biggest aspects of monks: maintaining their buffs. If they make all the jobs as brain-dead as bards, I'm quitting the game.

2) I was not able to test the melee portion due to lack of a good enough parser but skill speed is amazing for monks, for various reasons. For those who don't know how it works, every second of reduction is worth more the lower you GCD gets. This means -.1 sec is worth more at 2.0 sec GCD than 2.5 sec. To counter this, speed works on a percentage system, so it takes more to get -.1 sec the lower your GCD is.

3) TP issues in coil depends on your group's dps. You should never have issues outside of coil; you might not even need Invigorate unless your group's dps is horrid. The only exception is heavy aoe situations but even that depends on your group's dps. Also, TP issue applies equally to all TP-dps; monks have a lower GCD but their abilities also cost less.

buff bards to save the day with army peon

1. Every job is already as "brain dead" as bards. Except instead of pressing 3 buttons to maintain buffs, you press 6 in a set sequence. So really you only have 2 buttons. Who's the easier class now? =) Please don't make monks sound like some ridiculously difficult class. And don't put down other classes because of their perceived easiness. That has no bearing on...dps or anything. You aren't the great gamer you think you are.

2. Skill speed is stuck somewhere between decent for burst and minimal effect for long term dps, again depending on fight length. On extremely long fights it does nothing. Any fight where you cannot stick to a boss for more than 1 minute at at a time or so, it also does nothing. Every other stat is much, much better.

3. This is true.

I wanted to also speak on OP's point.

If they buff GL. Just...wait a second before doing your rotation =) It has zero effect on your TP drain. You yourself are the only person that can affect your TP drain.

If you feel you're draining too fast, pare down your rotation to the basic 3, and wait.

Yes! It does suck, but it is a design decision that SE has made, that mana/TP for dps is a thing, and it is beyond crippling for combat and super painful to deal with.

Hopefully they change it soon, and give actual meaningful resource management to classes other than BLM.