I'm not at all saying paladins need an enmity boost, but the most curious thing to me in the warrior patch notes was a few abilities getting enmity boosts. To be honest, aside from pickup (because war's mp is a precious commodity so hitting flash more than once blows--like when the healer mistimes a cure), I find holding hate on war easier than paladin, but that might just be me.
We've all seen the exceptionally bad tanks, I'm sure, but enmity boosts won't really help them. Flash with 3x the enmity still = 0 when the paladin isn't casting flash (or the war isn't OP'ing).
The only thing it helps is the undergeared tanks who are really trying, and I approve of this.
Will Paladins get an enmity boost as well?
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11-26-2013, 10:15 PMSteeledWill Paladins get an enmity boost as well?
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11-26-2013, 10:56 PMMarleytiva
I think that Warriors are receiving the enmity boost because of a few factors. The base 20% healing bonus could be troublesome if you're hit with a heavy heal at the beginning of a fight and it seems that SE wants to give Warriors the ability to use their other two combos (Storm's Eye/Path) with a little more frequency. Like I said, it's just my opinion, but those reasons make a lot of sense to me.
Edit: AoE enmity generation has never really been an issue for my Paladin. While my Warrior will run out of TP and MP, my Paladin can regenerate it's own resources indefinitely with Riot Blade etc. -
11-26-2013, 11:14 PMBigpurpleharnessThis is probably the most correct answer. That being said, I found the overpower change unnecessary, but whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marleytiva
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11-26-2013, 11:33 PMBaymanHonestly, I think its because WAR's are going to focus on the storm's debuff for for mitigation that we will not be using our hate combo as often. PLD has one real combo, and its high threat. They also get their mitigation as a constant buff and cd's. WAR's have to use rotations to get everything going. Meaning, we will be doing less threat for more defense. In AOE circumstances, we normally spam overpower... the boost will let us keep our mitigation up while not loosing threat. This is a whole new way to use the WAR, but its the best guess I can come up with why they would change it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeled
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11-26-2013, 11:41 PMSteeled
I can agree with most of this, good insight.
Although the hp biuff = shield oath, and with defiance now baking in healing, the two are nearly even (yes I know defiance falls just the slightest bit behind).
Wars usually open with Infuriate so they've always been recieving the big heals right off that bat. I've never had a problem mixing in Storm's Eye (I previously pretty much ignored Path, but that will change). -
11-26-2013, 11:47 PMTestosterone
I would just like them to fix shield oath. I know for a fact the enimity increase on it is not working as intended all the time.
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11-27-2013, 03:40 AMVortok
Adding an enmity multiplier to Shield Swipe would be the simplest way of handling it. Likely at least a x4 multiplier, since with a x3 it would basically equal Savage Blade (and thus using Shield Swipe would still be lower threat since it delays Halone - there is the cheaper TP cost to consider, but WAR is about to be able to use 0 TP moves like Inner Beast with more frequency than now).
The random nature of Shield Swipe procs + how little time the game gives you to use it means it usually isn't practical to use it for the Pacification effect. That and weaving in Shield Swipes regularly would make PLD slightly more interesting to play than pressing 1, 2, 3 forever and ever. The TP savings over an extended fight/chain pulling would be nice as well.
It could be removed from the GCD (in which case you could have situations like a BRD does with Bloodletter procs, given a high block rate and enough incoming swings), but it'd still be lackluster without an enmity bonus. And since PLD's stun is on the GCD, leaving Shield Swipe on the GCD and adjusting it there seems like a more cohesive design.
Definitely little things here and there with PLD that would be nice to see get some polish. -
11-27-2013, 04:33 AMGithiun
Coming from both a Pld and Healer perspective I think that the Pld could use a threat boost. Has the top 10% of players who know their class and are geared won't have a problem. Even the middle of the line players may not have TOO much of a problem.
But here's soemthing you need to think about. What about the new players? Do you know how frustrating it is to DF. Get into a party, you really are a decent player. You care about threat and making sure you're healers/dps aren't getting beat on and because the average player is significantly geared better than you you're guaranteed to lose threat.
It really alienates the new players. Upgrading your weapon is so important and so difficult as a tank early on. i55 weapon aint gonna do much against an i70/i90 geared BLM.. -
11-27-2013, 04:45 AMPArcher
I don't really know why Overpower is getting a boost. I have no issues grabbing hate with it right now, especially the Unchained + Berserk combo (one alone is good too on smaller pulls). The only thing I can think of as to why it is being buffed is because its TP cost is really high; if you OP spam to grab a group's hate you're likely to run out of TP before the group is dead, especially if you were a little TP deficient before the pull (at the same time, using Unchained + Berserk before the OP spam will generate so much hate that you can just tab out til things are dead, especially if you're really geared)
Based on playing with some PAL (mine's not leveled yet) I don't see Flash needing a buff either. PAL have Riot Blade to regen mana, so its not as big of an issue to Flash during your RoH combos if you have to, even moreso since it doesn't break combos like OP does. -
11-27-2013, 05:46 AMGiantbaneI don't know if PLD really have much of an advantage in this regard. Overpower seems to be much stronger for enmity generation than flash is, even moreso when you stack it with maim, berserk, internal release and/or unchained (fight or flight doesn't seem to do much as far as flash is concerned). The one supposed advantage of flash is that you can restore your mana to keep flashing by switching to a fast->riot->flash combo. However, this takes 2 GCD to build up the mana. In that time, the WAR has almost generated enough TP to perform another overpower, which should not only provide more enmity overall, but more damage too. The WAR also has the option to flash while waiting on TP provided he has some mana left.Quote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
Even now, this seems to favor the WAR greatly. I'm actually surprised that a lesser version of overpower isn't available as cross class ability for the PLD to use with fight or flight to better balance this out. It seems like it's going to be very slanted in the WARs favor after 2.1 when overpower and defiance both generate more enmity. -
11-27-2013, 05:52 AMPArcherThe only way I can think of that a WAR will build up TP to get another OP off in that time is if he does nothing else...OP is 130 TP, and you regen I think 70 or 80 every three seconds or so (not sure on exact numbers, sorry, but I know its not enough to regen enough for OP every tick). So in order to do that, you have to not use any abilites that use TP while waiting for it to regen...which makes the PAL's regen better, since they are still doing something productive as they regen (yes, Flash for WAR too, and your Wrath abilities, but if your MP is out or you're not Infuriated...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
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11-27-2013, 05:57 AMLex_Luger
Testo said shield oath is broken.
I've been seeing this a lot lately, and though I haven't done any official testing, perhaps I can provide some insight. First of all, Shield Oath is definitely giving an enmity increase. Try Co-tanking with another pally, you in Sword oath, him in nothing. Then try again with him in Shield and you in sword. You'll steal hate almost effortlessly when he doesn't have shield oath up, and while its certainly possible/easy to do when if you aren't careful when he does have shield oath up, it still is considerably different. I think the bigger issue, is Sword Oath needing enmity suppression. People like to discount auto attacks, but an extra 50 potency on EVERY single swing (and they come fast on PLD) is A LOT of additional hate. Couple that with the fact, that our main dmg combo, is also our main hate combo, and it makes in nearly impossible to DPS on PLD as an OT, unless you give the MT a solid 15-30 seconds you just spamming Fast blade or something. -
11-27-2013, 05:58 AMTraekPeople seem to keep thinking of TP management in a bubble of the AoE scenario. Over any lengthy fights, tp loss of overpower becomes a huge factor. Not only for if another AoE scenario comes up, but for MTing as well. Even in ez moad AKs (classic pulling) when I chain pull on Warrior I have to stop and wait 15 or so seconds before the boss to have enough tp to last the boss fight (this isn't even with fracture). I play both WAR and PLD and I'd take flash spam all day over Overpower. Sure the damage is nice, but the ability to seamlessly move from AoE > ST without TP worries is a huge benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
This isn't of course even thinking of WP SRs where bottoming out your TP on PLD to pull literally has no detrimental effect, and your resource pools of both are more then manageable. This Enmity modifier really is a nice plus for Warriors that'll help balance out these differences. -
11-27-2013, 05:59 AMGiantbaneExactly, don't do anything else, regen TP and just overpower when you can. I'm pretty sure it's 60 TP every GCD (2.5s). So every ~3.167 GCD you get off another Overpower. Overpower does both damage and generates threat. So as long as you've got more than 3 targets (you can target cycle easily with 3 or fewer targets to save TP), it seems at least as good at both enmity generation and damage compared to fast -> riot -> flash. Especially since you'll be able to throw in an occasional flash during the down time as you regen mana for that. This should be more pronounced with the 2.1 changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
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11-27-2013, 06:06 AMGiantbaneChain pulling AK or WP, you can manage your TP such that you shouldn't need to wait for more than a couple seconds at most if you mix in flashes and swap to target cycling a little early. It's definitely harder on the WAR. You have to balance your TP vs. threat on each target instead of just mashing the AoE button, but it's doable. Especially if you lead off with some combination of unchained, berserk, inner release and/or vengeance to secure a solid threat lead during the initial attacks and work in a heavy -> maim as fast as possible to boost those overpowers even further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traek
TP consumption will also be eased come 2.1 when we can use wrath abilities freely without consequence (no TP for 1 round) and the TP costs for storm's eye/path are reduced. -
11-27-2013, 06:23 AMTraekI think you missed the whole point of what I was saying. There is no TP penalty for PLD AoE spam. Manageable threat in all AoE scenarios as well as seamless transition to ST with net TP gain (instead of Overpower's loss), not to mention net MP gain for AoE situations while STing, makes PLD's position a better one. I agree in 2.1 fixes will most likely remedy *most* these situations, that is why it is needed. The fact PLDs see "enmity increase" and get all jelly just shows they don't fundamentally understand Warrior. Warrior's who say "it was good enough" aren't looking at the bigger picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
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11-27-2013, 06:23 AMSkiesNope, all recovery and DoT ticks are synchronized. They are all 3 seconds. It would take 3 ticks to regen enough TP for Overpower, so 9 seconds. One second below 4 GCDsQuote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
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11-27-2013, 06:31 AMGiantbaneEither way, you only need to wait 3 ticks when you're down to 0, and after 3 ticks you will only have to wait 2 ticks for the next 5 applications. Overpower is generating threat and doing damage to all targets while fast->riot->flash is only doing damage to one target, and probably not generating much, if any additional enmity or damage after you've bottom'd out your AoE resource pool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skies
I know there's no TP penalty for the PLD. The TP penalty for the WAR means it's harder to play. There's nothing wrong with that in my mind. But the WAR can currently be just as effective, with the combination of buffs for overpower and using flash, infuriate->wrath moves, and just waiting to conserve TP. And he is currently much better for enmity generation at the beginning of a fight since all his buffs work to boost overpower (and berserk even boosts flash), but nothing the PLD has boosts flash (well, save the base shield oath bonus).Quote:
Originally Posted by Traek
In my mind 2.1 is going to make good WARs the much preferred AoE tank. Giving a PLD access to Overpower would at least make that more balanced since they can use overpower with fight or flight to generate AoE enmity faster. But they do so while stressing their own TP pool, which seems like a valid trade off. -
11-27-2013, 07:22 AMTraekSure, PLD can have Overpower if it OOTPs them in 3 uses, like our current flash does. They can regen TP while they are flashing and it'll all even out..... Can we get a TP regen ability like Riot Blade for MP as well? All things being even right? Honestly I wish they'd just take out Flash from Warrior and make us self sufficient in that department. Flash is just a token ability used because its AoE instead of Cone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
You keep saying the same things. Your basic answer for Warrior OOTP is *sit around for TP*. While we are doing that PLD is STing, riot blading, flashing, and storing up TP for their next ST pickup. If enmity generation is even in the end (or leaning toward warrior), who wants to sit around all day sitting on their thumbs because they spammed an ability a few times? -
11-27-2013, 07:39 AMHitokirinomadQuote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
This is inaccurate, since the PLD AOE threat pool is MP, which fast > riot > flash means you have enough to flash again in 2 GCD (instead of 3), and you can still, since you are bottoming your MP, continue using your weapons skills (more than the 4 Flash WAR have with a full MP bar). Bottomline, PLD have the ability to regenerate and pretty much indefinitely sustain their AOE threat, so WAR has no advantage here beyond maybe snap aggro (discounting CoS, which you shouldn't as it costs no resources whatsoever).
You again ignore CoS, and compare OP + the entire WAR Suite to Flash, and find PLD lacking. Go figure. Still, I agree that WAR is better for enmity generation at the beginning of the fight. That doesn't make them a better AOE tank though. In my mind that's fair, since they have to go through all those contortions to compared to just...hitting Flash + CoS. And after 10 flashes you fast > riot a couple of times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
No, because you are still forgetting the AOE blind on Flash, the 360 application. Oh and Shield Oath is more effective on multiple mobs while Defiance has no such scaling. WAR have never been the better AOE *tank*, and won't be after 2.1. Giving PLD access to OP means they will be able to perform as many OP as a WAR, then Flash + Blind 2.5 times as many times as a WAR, while also having CoS on CD and better survivability. That's your definition of a valid tradeoff? I'm not saying WAR will be a *bad* AOE tank, but they'll never be better at the tanking aspect, just because they are better on the initial emnity generation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
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11-27-2013, 08:35 AMSteeledOh I get this completely. I heal too, and have sympathy when the 4300 pld comes up against the 4300 drg (lol saw it once) or the 3800 blm. Darklight weapons aren't meant to hold off Relics, and while they shouldn't... Ifrit weapons, if you do really good, should be able to keep pace. So what if that means a relic tank generates enough hate he can relax a little, he's earned that luxury, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Githiun
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11-27-2013, 09:00 AMTeleniel
This is just my feeling. I don't have problems holding hate unless people get confused as to single target vs. AoE (or they split what they're targeting). Overpower does not generate enough enmity to just spam it and keep hate off people who are focus targeting, but it DOES generate more than enough to manage against healer agro / minor AoE attacks. So I welcome the enmity boost although I don't feel we *needed* it. Steel Cyclone just isn't going to get used unless it's a MAJOR boost I'd rather use my Wraith for something else, since cycle still takes a GCD action.
I would like to see Pld get a bit of enmity generation Flash doesn't need it (since it comes with blind), and neither does RoH combo... but it could use some small bonus perhaps increase the global increase in shield oath. -
11-27-2013, 09:18 AMSteeled
Tbh, I don't think flash's blind has much to do with it.
1.) In an aoe pull, it does make you take less damage, but I don't think it makes the healers heal for much less, and since overhealing counts, the difference is irrelevant. That said, I just don't lose hate to healers.
Both of these rotations will make mobs flash-immune in the first 15-20 seconds.
Flash>>FB>>SB>>Flash>>RoH>>Flash
Flashx6+ (lol, "rotation"), because when you reapply a debuff, if the diminished time that may be applied is greater than the time remaining, it is overwritten. Flash a mob, flash it immediately and it says "no effect", but if you wait 8 seconds and flash it, it will overwrite and reset the time to 7.5 seconds (or whatever).
2.) In a single target pull (boss) flash is an enmity loss. Opening with it might be a gain for the immediate time, but you're better off lob/RoH'ing. That's not at all to imply flash has no use single-target. At that point, it can be used for the blind effect.