So which is it Yoshi?

Yoshida, you say in your reply to crafting:

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Preserving the Appeal of Dungeons

While there are a variety of ways to enjoy FFXIV, the desire to become powerful is a great motivator for many players. In particular, the impressive weapons and armor obtainable by triumphing in high-level PvE encounters attract many players to take on these challenges.

If the same items were made craftable, some players might find it easier to save up their gil, robbing them of this motivation to undertake the game’s toughest battles.



I realize this is a worst-case scenario. In a perfect world, it would simply be another option, and players would have the choice of either fighting or saving money to obtain their desired gear. Unfortunately, this remains a concern.

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Just replace the word craft and this is exactly the dilemma we have with getting allagan equivalent gear with myth stones that can be farmed from AK.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Ensuring Item Rarity

We also believe that the strongest gear available at a given time should not be obtainable by all players.
As of Version 2.0-2.1, this position is held by the Allagan gear that may be won by completing the Binding Coil of Bahamut. With only the most skilled of adventurers able to complete this challenge, many others must settle for obtaining high-item-level gear via tomestones while biding their time, waiting for the difficulty of this battle to be eased.

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But in your myth stone post, you said:

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

• Play through the Binding Coil of Bahamut and obtain gear from drops.
• Collect Allagan tomestones of mythology to exchange for gear.

Although these methods are different, each allows for the acquisition of level 90 gear.

In short, players who have ample time to play are free to collect tomestones, or challenge the Binding Coil, and those who have less time can still acquire tomestones at their leisure. Despite the difference in time available to players, the game is designed so that everyone can potentially obtain item level 90 gear.

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Again, the myth gear is JUST as good as the Allagan gear, infact, "BiS" combinations require a combination of the 2, nobody is going to wear full allagan and nothing else. "Exclusive" in this case means nothing more than appearance...

I'm really worried you guys are making this game TOO casual friendly. I have no problems with casual players, and think they deserve to enjoy the game as much as anyone else, but there needs to be incentive for "end-game" or "hard-core" players.

There seem to be conflicting statements being made...

He won't notice this thread unless you use square brackets in title.

e.g.

[To Yoshi-P] So which is it?

just send him a pm bro.

Please dont assume that everyone will use BiS AF2/Allagan gear. I for one will be using full allagan set once i have it. ^^"

A little bit of this, a little bit of that, and everything in between. :)

I prefer just walking around in my underwear. It's more challenging.

Lol the responses.. xD

I think Yoshi is implying that Allagen gear is for the "skilled players" while AF2 is an alternative gear set for the "less skilled players" to be obtained at their leisure. Both sets require players to play through some kind of content to obtain in preparation for future content. The exclusive sets are being made as a status symbol maybe slightly more powerful than the best alternative to try to avoid gear exclusion.

He doesn't want crafted gear to be as powerful as the current high level gear otherwise players could simply buy it and have no incentive to do new content. Crafting is to be used as a filler for people to prepare for new content if they are behind, new, or had just had bad luck getting drops.

The main problem I have with myth stones is that they give you the highest ilvl like free candy. Best gear should be obtained from the hardest end-game content and now they're raising the cap, making it even worse. Too casual friendly.

Another Sephirah topic.
;v

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Originally Posted by Taliph

Serious question, op, who is paying you to post?

Don't see how you could support yourself otherwise, ya know, food... Shelter... Etc. given how much time you must spend here.

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It's called multi-tasking. I'm sorry you aren't effective enough at micro-managing your own time that you think it's impossible to spend 30 seconds writing a post every now and then, but I can. I'm actually at work RIGHT NOW. XD

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Originally Posted by Aerostein

Another Sephirah topic.
;v

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Yup, it's my topic. Pointing out a discrepancy in the information being provided to us.

Edit: yay post limits

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Originally Posted by Bizniztyme

Now this was insightful!!!

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I agree with your views on why he's doing what he's doing Tahldon, but No child left behind was the dumbest thing ever, and it's dumb here to. I'm not looking for bragging rights, running coils is already enough to "brag" about to anyone not already running it.

The problem is, (most)people will always take the easy way. If you can be equally rewarded for putting in less effort, then why waste your time or efforts on the more difficult route? And running coils is not mutually exclusive from earning myth gear, if you're clearing coils, you're earning myth gear at the same time.

You should be rewarded for your efforts, not your lack of them.

Community Reps actually said that the brackets in the title doesn't get any more attention than a normal thread, recently.

Eh, I feel like the vision Yoshi-P has for the game is fine. I mean, I more or less want to break down what the "incentive" would be between the two types of players? The biggest thing I tend to feel from the OP is that there should be a drastic difference between the hardcore and the casual player in terms of gear or something. Is that the incentive?

I mean, I'm all for having something to show for the work in certain regards, but I also understand where Yoshi-P is coming from when he says he doesn't want that huge player gap. It seems, to me, as though he wants to bring the FFXIV community of players up together as a whole as opposed to having a huge rift between the two types of players. It's his own sort of "No players left behind" sort of deal, I'd wager.

Personally, I don't really mind any of it. I've played games before where I have tried to stand out and stand apart from lower level players, but I kind of fell out of that because I felt like it was like me holding my prize over the new guy's head like "Heh, look at this. Bet you wish you had it huh? Too bad you're not as hardcore as I am. Get yo' head right, son! You'll get there one day!" But that's all it is... bragging rights, or so I feel in any case. I tend to think that Yoshi-P is overlooking peoples' urges for that and trying to make a way for both types of player to earn their "power/gear" in a way that works best for them so that they can still play together and experience the game in a little sort of community.

I dunno, though, maybe I'm just odd. I kinda feel like people want to loom things over other people's heads just to say "I have this and you don't. Suck it." or "If you played harder, you'd have all this." Kind of feels like something a big brother would do to a younger one.

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Originally Posted by Tahldon

I mean, I'm all for having something to show for the work in certain regards, but I also understand where Yoshi-P is coming from when he says he doesn't want that huge player gap. It seems, to me, as though he wants to bring the FFXIV community of players up together as a whole as opposed to having a huge rift between the two types of players. It's his own sort of "No players left behind" sort of deal, I'd wager.

I dunno, though, maybe I'm just odd. I kinda feel like people want to loom things over other people's heads just to say "I have this and you don't. Suck it." or "If you played harder, you'd have all this." Kind of feels like something a big brother would do to a younger one.

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Now this was insightful!!!

When your name, becomes it's own title for a thread, we've got a problem. *chuckle*


I was under the impression that someone who was going for BiS, would be both gathering Tomes, AND doing Algallean gear.

Seeming most people would not be able to pursue both, that would still validate Yoshi's statement about best gear not being easily accessible to all players, especially when considering the skill requirement for Coil. Meanwhile, those who play more casually, will take the path of least resistance, ignore the BiS items coming out of Coil, and stick to Relic(Myth Tome) gear.

Or, those with a dedicated static for Coil, but not enough time to grind out Myth, may stick purely to Coil gear. Only the most dedicated of players will be successful pursuing both at once. Donno why OP is trying to force-feed their own perspective as infallible logic into this.

But again, I'm not touching endgame until post 2.1. Limited availability in game, classes/subclasses to level. Haven't found a dedicated group I'd feel comfortable running such things with. Multiple characters to decide where I want to focus on. So many factors keeping me from approaching this endgame in earnest yet.

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Originally Posted by Tahldon

Snip

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I see where you are coming from and agree for the most part, I do think though that if you clear the hardest content you should get better stuff not WAY better but even like +1 or 2 more in the main stat ya know just a little bit to be proud of.

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Originally Posted by Remn

Please dont assume that everyone will use BiS AF2/Allagan gear. I for one will be using full allagan set once i have it. ^^"

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He was assuming that everyone would be intelligent enough not to wear full allagan/AF2, which is really not that far-fetched of an assumption when you consider how easy it is to determine BiS. Especially when vanity slots are introduced, there is no excuse for intentionally gimping yourself.

Yeah its a bit weird that he is implying that a person Allagan gear = skilled hardcore while a person in AF+ gear = unskilled casual. I'm doing coil regularly. I'm really only interested in the accessories, cause my visible armour I want AF+. I'm not trying to extreme min/max and would rather have a full set of one type than random pieces here and there. You can't tell just by looking at a person's gear what their playstyle is.

I do wish vanity slots were considered more of an urgent issue by Square though. If we had vanity slots, I could go the extreme min/max route. Heck, I wanna do Coil in full Lightning gear xD.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Yup, it's my topic. Pointing out a discrepancy in the information being provided to us.

Edit: yay post limits

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Didn't mean anything by it, you're just one of those posters, you know? lol
You make some valid points though. Personally, I have mixed feelings about it all. Seems to be playing it rather safe.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Again, the myth gear is JUST as good as the Allagan gear, infact, "BiS" combinations require a combination of the 2, nobody is going to wear full allagan and nothing else. "Exclusive" in this case means nothing more than appearance...

I'm really worried you guys are making this game TOO casual friendly. I have no problems with casual players, and think they deserve to enjoy the game as much as anyone else, but there needs to be incentive for "end-game" or "hard-core" players.

There seem to be conflicting statements being made...

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Hard core players get myth gear AND allagan gear, so they can fill out their slots in ilvl90 gear faster.

Casuals have to wait because they can only get myth so fast.

That was the difference he was implying.

The reason for no ilvl90 crafted gear right now probably has more to do with them not coming up with a method to limit the rate you could acquire it (in addition to other effects he mentioned).

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Hard core players get myth gear AND allagan gear, so they can fill out their slots in ilvl90 gear faster.

Casuals have to wait because they can only get myth so fast.

That was the difference he was implying.

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As I said in another thread about this, when turns 1-4 can be cleared in DL, and there is currently nothing harder than Twintania, the rate at which you gear up is irrelevant. So the "hard-core" players can get gear faster to help them clear... the exact same content that the casuals can.

Giving out ilevel90 for grinding the easiest content at level 50 is pretty dumb

its not challenge or even fun. When the hardest content in the game isn't BiS and you have to swap in Af2 then yeah its a slap in the face for people who raid (some allagan and AF2 have the exact same stats)

personally if they want to keep doing this then the next set of Token gear should be 1 tier behind the raided content (ilevel 110 raided, ilevel 100 token)

That way its actually worth getting all the raid gear and be proud of your accomplishment. not this joke of a system

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

As I said in another thread about this, when turns 1-4 can be cleared in DL, and there is currently nothing harder than Twintania, the rate at which you gear up is irrelevant. So the "hard-core" players can get gear faster to help them clear... the exact same content that the casuals can.

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That was apparently a mistake. They didn't test PLD in coil, they designed coil around 2x WAR tanks. I think you'll be hard pressed to clear coil with 2 WAR tanks while your etire raid wears DL.

They're not going to make the current content harder (either by nerfing PLD or buffing coil), but moving forward, expect a harder end game.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

That was apparently a mistake. They didn't test PLD in coil, they designed coil around 2x WAR tanks. I think you'll be hard pressed to clear coil with 2 WAR tanks while your etire raid wears DL.

They're not going to make the current content harder (either by nerfing PLD or buffing coil), but moving forward, expect a harder end game.

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I highly doubt they didn't test pld in coils, they may have not tested 2 pld in coils assuming everyone would use a pld/war combo, but regardless, you can clear turns 1-4 in DL, pretty sure double WAR could do this too, I've just never tried it.

But even if what you said was correct, and they never tested PLD in coils, and it wasn't intended for groups in DL to clear turns 1-4, it is how it is now, and they have to make adjustments moving forward taking that into account, regardless of what their original intentions were.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

So you can't brag up and down about your Allagan gear and wave your internet bozack around like a maniac. Big deal. The game's not all about you Junior Jenkinses. What's so wrong about people who have things going on in real life having the chance to get gear of the same item level on their terms and not have to go through the toxic politics of endgame groups?

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There is nothing wrong with wanting to be a casual player.

I don't understand this mentality. Just because we want some incentive for end-game raiding does not mean we are saying casuals aren't allowed to play the game and enjoy it.

Casuals view end-game "hard-core" content as something they are excluded from due to their erratic schedules, well us "hard-core" players feel like we're being excluded from a challenging progression.

How would you feel if you worked every day, saved up your money, and then bought that nice new car you always wanted. Then someone walks up and complains about not having enough time to do that work and earn that money, so the dealer says "well.... ok, here you can have it anyway".

Edit: more stupid limits

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

They already said PLD is uninentionally making some of the coil fights too easy. It's not like the PLD move set is complicated enough that they missed some super secret PLD strat that's giving PLD the edge. The only explination is that they did most of their balancing with WAR tanks and sort of glossed over making sure it was equally as difficult as the PLD.

So, yea. I bet devs mained WAR and balanced the dungeon around that. Then they did it a few times a PLD to make sure it was doable and called it a day without serious balance testing between the two classes.

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Again, however they balanced it is IRRELEVANT to what is in the game RIGHT NOW. And that, is a dungeon that can have turns 1-4 cleared in DL gear, WAR or PLD makes no difference, they're both do-able.

I think you're missing the point entirely about what we're talking about here. We aren't talking about how difficult a dungeon should be, or class balance. We're talking about people getting gear thats just as good, and in some cases better than binding coils, for running wanderer's palace.

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

Giving out ilevel90 for grinding the easiest content at level 50 is pretty dumb

its not challenge or even fun. When the hardest content in the game isn't BiS and you have to swap in Af2 then yeah its a slap in the face for people who raid (some allagan and AF2 have the exact same stats)

personally if they want to keep doing this then the next set of Token gear should be 1 tier behind the raided content (ilevel 110 raided, ilevel 100 token)

That way its actually worth getting all the raid gear and be proud of your accomplishment. not this joke of a system

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So you can't brag up and down about your Allagan gear and wave your internet bozack around like a maniac. Big deal. The game's not all about you Junior Jenkinses. What's so wrong about people who have things going on in real life having the chance to get gear of the same item level on their terms and not have to go through the toxic politics of endgame groups?

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Originally Posted by Hayward

So you can't brag up and down about your Allagan gear and wave your internet bozack around like a maniac. Big deal. The game's not all about you Junior Jenkinses. What's so wrong about people who have things going on in real life having the chance to get gear of the same item level on their terms and not have to go through the toxic politics of endgame groups?

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Wish that logic applied in all facets of life. I would love an all expenses paid three month vacation to puerto rico to drop in my lap just from waiting for enough time to pass. No need to work for such things if I can just mindlessly wait for stuff.

i do agree with the OP... myth gear probably shouldn't have ever been BiS gear.

They probably should have made myth gear i85 - to replace CT gear until you could get BiS Allagan drops.

As it stands, esp with the increased cap in 2.1, they will make it really hard for people to want to continue to run coil once their toon is geared in a mix of allagan/myth and full i90.

This gives those hardcore basement dwellers something to work for (full allagan) while making the difference between myth and allagan fairly small for the 99%ers.

It's kinda baffling, because some Jobs have better stuff on myth than Coil. I'm a SCH, I cleared up to T4 and I'm preparing myself T5, I prefer to wear my AF Body over the Allagan Body, does this mean i'm less skilled?

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Originally Posted by Hayward

So you can't brag up and down about your Allagan gear and wave your internet bozack around like a maniac. Big deal. The game's not all about you Junior Jenkinses. What's so wrong about people who have things going on in real life having the chance to get gear of the same item level on their terms and not have to go through the toxic politics of endgame groups?

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"Everyone must be able to get everything" is the kind of mentality that is killing MMORPG. If you don't have time to work toward end-game content and gears, well, it means you won't get them. High dedication=high reward.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

So you can't brag up and down about your Allagan gear and wave your internet bozack around like a maniac. Big deal. The game's not all about you Junior Jenkinses. What's so wrong about people who have things going on in real life having the chance to get gear of the same item level on their terms and not have to go through the toxic politics of endgame groups?

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Directly from Yoshi though, "We also believe that the strongest gear available at a given time should not be obtainable by all players." - However, Myth is available to all players and in some slots is the absolute strongest gear in the game atm.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

I highly doubt they didn't test pld in coils, they may have not tested 2 pld in coils assuming everyone would use a pld/war combo, but regardless, you can clear turns 1-4 in DL, pretty sure double WAR could do this too, I've just never tried it.

But even if what you said was correct, and they never tested PLD in coils, and it wasn't intended for groups in DL to clear turns 1-4, it is how it is now, and they have to make adjustments moving forward taking that into account, regardless of what their original intentions were.

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They already said PLD is uninentionally making some of the coil fights too easy. It's not like the PLD move set is complicated enough that they missed some super secret PLD strat that's giving PLD the edge. The only explination is that they did most of their balancing with WAR tanks and sort of glossed over making sure it was equally as difficult as the PLD.

So, yea. I bet devs mained WAR and balanced the dungeon around that. Then they did it a few times a PLD to make sure it was doable and called it a day without serious balance testing between the two classes.

And they also said they weren't going to nerf PLD or buff WAR and coil to make it as difficult as intended. It is more important to them that they don't hurt groups already clearing coil, than to provide the originally intended difficulty. So we just get to live with an easier coil 1-5.

With that said, since their original intent seems to have been to create content that was more difficult than it actually turned out, I expect any new end game content they introduce (coil 5-10) will be more difficult such that you need better gear before you clear it.

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

personally if they want to keep doing this then the next set of Token gear should be 1 tier behind the raided content (ilevel 110 raided, ilevel 100 token)

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No, all they need to do is not provide an entire set of gear for tokens. The token gear should be used as side grides and supplemental items for when raid drop RNG is not treating you well. There's no need to drop it a tier behind the raid.

im drg and a mix of allagan and myth gear is best for me , Full allagan for me is only more skill speed -___- I DON'T WANT ALL THIS SKILL SPEED.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

How would you feel if you worked every day, saved up your money, and then bought that nice new car you always wanted. Then someone walks up and complains about not having enough time to do that work and earn that money, so the dealer says "well.... ok, here you can have it anyway".

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Except that's not really how it is. It's you doing the more demanding and better paying job and getting that car sooner, while the other guy has to save up over a longer period of time to get it.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

Again, however they balanced it is IRRELEVANT to what is in the game RIGHT NOW. And that, is a dungeon that can have turns 1-4 cleared in DL gear, WAR or PLD makes no difference, they're both do-able.

I think you're missing the point entirely about what we're talking about here. We aren't talking about how difficult a dungeon should be, or class balance. We're talking about people getting gear thats just as good, and in some cases better than binding coils, for running wanderer's palace.

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Oh, I get what you're saying, but you seem to complete misunderstand me.

The situation with coil RIGHT NOW is because they screwed up.
They are NOT going to fix it RIGHT NOW because they are more afraid of making other customers unhappy than they are of making you unhappy because coil as it exists RIGHT NOW is too easy.

However, because they originally intended things to be more difficult, then what you are asking for will likely happen for future end game content releases. However, you have to WAIT FOR IT.

As far as running WP or AK for myth level gear, the balance that they are intending is that they get the same stuff as hard core players. Just that the hard core players get it much faster. You asked what his intention was. It seems pretty clear to me.

And you really don't think that there's something off when you run the easiest endgame content and it allows you to obtain the best gear?

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Originally Posted by Freakiie

And you really don't think that there's something off when you run the easiest endgame content and it allows you to obtain the best gear?

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QFT

this so much

Wasn't the point to reward all player regardless of playing style? If you are hardcore, you can simply tackle the challenge and get the gear faster.

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Originally Posted by Freakiie

And you really don't think that there's something off when you run the easiest endgame content and it allows you to obtain the best gear?

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I'm not debating whether it's good or not. Sephirah was claiming Yoshi was contradicting himself. I do not believe he was. You do coil for the challenge and to get end game gear faster. Casuals that aren't in coil still get access to end game gear via myth tokens, it's just going to take them a while to get a full set (let alone for multiple classes). That's the design as it exists.

Well and he's also got off on a tangent that end game gear doesn't even matter because you can clear coil in DF, but that's something else entirely.

EDIT: and i'm post capped. Too much discussion of new WAR abilities. Anyhow to reply below:

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Originally Posted by zdub303

This would be true if Allagan gear was better than myth gear, but in many cases it is not. Therefore, no matter how hardcore you are, if you can cap 300 myth tomes you progress at the exact same rate as everyone else and this can easily be done in one of the easiest end-game dungeons, Wanderer's Palace.

Additionally, going into coil and killing bosses does not guarantee gear. You can go weeks without ever seeing an upgrade.

Hardcore players don't get myth gear any faster than casual players. As long as you cap 300 myth tomes per week, you get myth gear just as fast as the most hardcore players in the game. In regards to hardcore players getting Allagan gear, see above.

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BiS is usually a mix between the two sets. So optimally you want some of each.

Even if you go weeks before seeing an upgrade, that doesn't seem like a problem. It takes 2-3 weeks before you can buy any piece of myth gear. And if you have access to both myth and allagan gear you're going to be getting a full set of ilvl 90 stuff faster than someone just capping myth by running WP 10x a week.

What about when BiS for a given class is an Allagan piece. Doesn't that mean the casual player running WP NEVER gets that *best* piece of gear? Does that make you feel better about the whole thing?

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Originally Posted by NekoHina

Wasn't the point to reward all player regardless of playing style? If you are hardcore, you can simply tackle the challenge and get the gear faster.

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This would be true if Allagan gear was better than myth gear, but in many cases it is not. Therefore, no matter how hardcore you are, if you can cap 300 myth tomes you progress at the exact same rate as everyone else and this can easily be done in one of the easiest end-game dungeons, Wanderer's Palace.

Additionally, going into coil and killing bosses does not guarantee gear. You can go weeks without ever seeing an upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

As far as running WP or AK for myth level gear, the balance that they are intending is that they get the same stuff as hard core players. Just that the hard core players get it much faster. You asked what his intention was. It seems pretty clear to me.

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Hardcore players don't get myth gear any faster than casual players. As long as you cap 300 myth tomes per week, you get myth gear just as fast as the most hardcore players in the game. In regards to hardcore players getting Allagan gear, see above.

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Originally Posted by Sephirah

The problem is, (most)people will always take the easy way. If you can be equally rewarded for putting in less effort, then why waste your time or efforts on the more difficult route? And running coils is not mutually exclusive from earning myth gear, if you're clearing coils, you're earning myth gear at the same time.

You should be rewarded for your efforts, not your lack of them.

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I guess it really is wrong of them to think people want to do something challenging for the sake of it challenging. There must always be a better reward for it (different is not enough). Gamers are in such a sad state. For the "fun" of something in a video game isn't enough, it must also provide actual reward that meets a random individuals satisfaction... haaa... I feel like I'm violating something serious for doing something because I want to, not because I feel I need to.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

I guess it really is wrong of them to think people want to do something challenging for the sake of it challenging. There must always be a better reward for it (different is not enough). Gamers are in such a sad state. For the "fun" of something in a video game isn't enough, it must also provide actual reward that meets a random individuals satisfaction... haaa... I feel like I'm violating something serious for doing something because I want to, not because I feel I need to.

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And wanting the best gear ingame, without actually putting in any real effort (Because time spent was irrelevant right?) and not even needing it one bit because you don't do the instance where it might actually matter is not a sad state? Come on please.

Is it really such a strange concept that the biggest challenge should net the biggest rewards?