I've noticed that the bulk of my damage as a dragoon comes from Big Crits but most of Dragoon's armor choices, specifically the dark light armor, doesn't have any Crit on it. Any thoughts?
Dragoons: Crit Class with no Crit?
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10-27-2013, 11:44 PMGooner_iBluAirJGRDragoons: Crit Class with no Crit?
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10-28-2013, 11:53 AMShinigamiB06
even if dragoon armor increased critical hit rate, we dont really know the extent. you could increase your critical hit chance by 1,000 points, and for all we know that is a 1% increase.
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10-28-2013, 12:16 PMThorauku
SE should really change the "stat. shown" in Character Window, make it atleast when you hover to the X stat. it'll show the percentage of it or smth.
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10-28-2013, 08:27 PMxyaieQuote:
Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR
dragoon stat weights:
Weapon Damage: 7.54
Strength: 1
Determination: .22
Crit: 0.16
Skill Speed: .146
what that means is that 1 point in determination will increase your overall dps more than one point in crit (37.5%). str and weapon damage are even moreso a bigger increase. while the heavy crits make a good amount of damage, the little increase from every hit hitting harder (and the crits critting harder) makes for a bigger increase
crit chance formula: Crit Chance % = 0.0693 x CRT – 18.486Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiB06
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10-28-2013, 09:47 PMCassandaria
I think Dragoon gear doesn't have a crit bonus on it (despite the big numbers coming from crit) simply because as a dragoon, you have a guaranteed crit 100% of the time it's off of the cooldown. And it's not a very long cooldown either, so putting extra crit would unbalance other abilities from other classes and they are trying to keep all of the classes balanced.
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10-28-2013, 10:58 PMpandabearcat
The only possible "crit" based class is bards.
Please, my god, please understand that "big crits" are meaningless.
In fact, because of life surge, you actually want crit LESS than before, because of your autocrit ability.
The more autocrits you have, the less crit you need, aka, monks, especially.
Not a single damn class is a crit class over any other class aside from bard.
And its been found that bard doesn't...really even favor crit much more than any other class.
People need to stop thinking "oo big numbers" and think that crit is the only thing that contributes to those numbers.
Instead, think this: Would you rather have fewer crits, but bigger crits, or more crits but smaller crits?
Suddenly thats not so easy to answer. And thus, why we have stat weights. -
10-28-2013, 11:04 PMEasymodeXI still completely disbelieve that ROB graph.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
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10-28-2013, 11:06 PMWoodberry
It is way too early in gearing progression to give everyone 50% crit.
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10-28-2013, 11:15 PMpandabearcatYea, idk, but I did check the sim and there wasn't anything wrong with it as far as I can see.Quote:
Originally Posted by EasymodeX
It is exceedingly simple compared to the current sim too, but had more detailed metrics.
If it makes you feel better the reason the # of procs was curving downwards was likely because I treated double procs as the same proc (obviously), as the game treats it that way.
That means as crit gets higher,
crit+crit - crit*crit is the chance each TICK event will proc.
As you can see, if you take the derivative (the change per change, as it were) = 2 - 2*crit, it is a linear line down.
So the rate of change will decrease linearly, which is why the graph is inverted like that.
Mathematics! -
10-28-2013, 11:19 PMGooner_iBluAirJGRAre you upset?Quote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
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10-28-2013, 11:27 PMpandabearcatI am merely the enemy of misinformation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR
Also bad math.
Also I think, you will find that if you had 0 crit, and instead 900 determination, your damage would be higher.
Well...maybe not, the scaling might favor crit at that point.
But I hope you know it is entropy that is the bane of players everywhere, and as crit thrives on it, it is not good.
Lets say you need to do 100 damage to kill a mob.
I would much rather have 100 damage attack bar none, perfect, average, unfluctuating damage, than have 80 damage, but have a 80% chance to crit.
The EV of 80 damage, 80% chance to crit is 80*(1.5*.8 + .2) = 112 damage.
It is higher damage, by 12%!
But guess what, 20% of the time, you're going to fail that boss.
I'd rather do less dps and be more consistent.
Obviously with more attacks this becomes moot and everything approaches average, but I wanted to point out the fallacy of relying on your "big" crits. -
10-28-2013, 11:46 PMEasymodeXOh, I thought the graph reflected the # of ROBs procs, not the delta / 1st derivative of # of ROB procs. I get the negative acceleration since the two potential ROB procs (one from each DOT) partially conflict. mIsrEAdQuote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
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10-29-2013, 12:24 AMGooner_iBluAirJGR
We'll I'm not much of a math person but considering dragoon has a lot of high potency attacks I figure having them crit as often as possible would increase your damage more than having them on a flat line. But this is clearly just an opinion of mine! hopefully I'll be able to mix and match more crit armor in the future!
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10-29-2013, 12:34 AMxyaie
Potency of attacks doesn't increase crit's effectiveness
hitting .5% harder and having a 1% chance to do 50% more damage are the same thing. Considering your heaviest attack garanteed crits like 20-25% of the time anyway, it makes crit less effective in the given situation -
10-29-2013, 06:21 AMShinigamiB06what is your source for this? did you get this from that one guy who basically ran a few tries and drew some excel spreadsheets?Quote:
Originally Posted by xyaie
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10-29-2013, 07:41 AMRoughDividerYeah that's the accepted value at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiB06
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10-29-2013, 11:55 AMThyrllanIt's not "a few"Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiB06
It's a variety of theorycrafters who ran a plethora tests and came to the same relative conclusion. -
10-29-2013, 12:46 PMxyaiehttp://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...otation-RebornQuote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiB06
I was a part of the theorycrafting that went into this. its 51 pages with probably more theorycrafting in the first 2 post alone than most of the DPS forums combine. those exact numbers are from easymodeX (he made the finished product).
as for the crit formula:
http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id...riticalHitRate
he cites his info and his test quite well. so far its stayed very consistent with my "actual" results within a reasonable margin of error. -
10-30-2013, 07:43 AMShinigamiB06lol chill dude. i didnt mean it in a way to undermine what they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thyrllan
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10-30-2013, 08:00 AMShinigamiB06ill have to sit down and carefully read the whole thing before i can actually say anything in regards to those numbers. but from a quick peak, I am not sure i can accept those trials for critical hit chance. It will most likely sound stupid to the masses, and admittedly there is a very high chance that I am wrong, but i cant shake this feeling that critical hit chance is not a linear number that simply increases with higher value. To put it more clearly, I feel like the critical hit chance stat works alongside other stats in order to calculate the real critical hit rate percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by xyaie
Here is why i believe this: In the numbers presented in the graph, with 340 CHR you have a ~6% chance to land a critical. with 440 CHR you have effectively increased that to ~12% chance. So if these numbers truly have a linear relationship, then by definition decreasing you CHR from 340 to 240 you would literally have ~0% chance of a critical hit. And if you further decreased that number you would go into negative values. So i think its fair to say that we have all landed a critical hit with less than 240 CHR (unless that is the starting value stat at level one LOL)
That is why I have always said: "numbers may not lie, but they dont tell the whole truth"
just for the sake of completeness, i feel the person should test if changing the strength stat or any other stat changes the frequency of criticals. -
10-30-2013, 08:06 AMViridianaYour base crit rating at level 50 (where testing was done) is 341. Your base crit rate is ~5%. The values given apply to increases beyond the base level, at which point it becomes linear.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiB06
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10-30-2013, 08:15 AMNefGP
Interesting theory.
Personally I prefer +crit gear a lot. Haven't run any parsers or any fancy math, so I've no right to comment on any of that. But purely on what I've experienced of the game thus far, stacking crit gear has had a very noticeable effect on my damage output on BLM & SMN. Yes Determination will give you far better average damage, which is probably more ideal for say MNK which does consistent damage, but for jobs like BLM & DRG which deal a fair chunk of burst damage Crit Rate can really shine. I've found it to be particularly devastating on SMN when I get big crits on Fester.
Also I've heard conflicting reports on whether or not DoTs can crit - can they or not? And I don't mean the initial impact damage. -
10-30-2013, 08:19 AMViridiana
Dots can crit, yes. Otherwise there'd be no sense in BRD's River of Blood trait, which resets Bloodletter when our dots crit 50% of the time. As for the value of crit chance, it gets devalued by certain mechanics across different classes. Straighter Shot procs devalue it for BRD (though RoB boosts the value overall, slightly). Same with Bootshine on MNK and Life Surge on DRG.
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10-30-2013, 08:20 AMpandabearcat
DoTs definitely crit, but they just show up as bigger (numerically) numbers in the "blob" of numbers per tick, rather than having a big (fontwise) number with a crit exclamation mark.
I'm done arguing avg damage vs +crit for burst. Its not worth it anymore lol.
Gear whatever the hell you want >.> -
10-30-2013, 02:10 PMReiterpallaschThis probably isn't possible however, because your crit rate, acc %, etc are based on your stats vs your targets stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorauku
500 crit might be 10% against one lvl 50 mob, and 30% against another. -
10-30-2013, 02:16 PMKeveeQuote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
The problem with avg damage vs +crit is that det comes in lesser values, most of the time below the weight, than crit on gear.
If it was 1:1 I'd take det every day, but it's not like that.
Just as an example, Caster Allagan Head Piece vs. SMN AF2.
15 DET vs 21 crit. There's 40% more stat towards crit. If this was a DRG piece, and you used the accepted weightings, they would almost be even--but crit would be on top.
Source? Because from everything I know, and have seen, that's only ACC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch
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10-31-2013, 04:21 AMNefGPQuote:
Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch
It's entirely possible. Blizzard did it in Diablo 2 - whenever you hovered over your accuracy rating it would give you your chance to hit in % vs the last enemy you attacked. In XIV's case, it would probably be easier to just list your rates vs enemies of your own level, and assume the values drop accordingly vs higher level targets.