[BARD] Should Heavier Shot should be changed?

I feel Heavier Shot [Heavy shot has a 20% chance of making your next Straight Shot automatically Crit.] should be changed. Not because it's useless but because its both a dull and potentially harmful trait. Here's my reasoning:

Say Heavier shot procs:
You can do another Heavy shot, or Straight shot. If you:
Straight shot - you instantly crit, and refresh the buff.
If you Heavy shot - You can POTENTIALLY crit, and if that does crit you deal 10 potency more damage and saved 10 TP.

That said, generally procs mean an undoubted damage boost and something you should pretty much always be happy about, but in this case sometimes using your procs quickly (what I'd consider good/reactive play) can harm your damage... That's silly. Obviously in net it's probably a slight damage increase but for the potential that procs hurt your dps is just not very fun/exciting.

Suggestions I'd have made would be one of the following:
Either
[Heavier Shot - Heavy shot has a 20% chance to make your next Straight Shot deal 180 potency and automatically hit for critical damage.]
OR
[Heavier Shot - Heavy shot has a 20% chance to make your next Straight Shot automatically hit for critical damage and consumes no TP.]

I'm not here because Bards needs buffs or what ever, I'm just making the overall statement that this trait has a potential to be less DPS, which isn't very fun to deal with. Thanks!.)

You're worried about TP as a bard?

I like how it works right now, it helps keep you up the 10% crit buff at almost all times.

TP isn't an issue unless its a fight that requires some AoE, but that isn't the point. The point is unless you're specifically using it to refresh your buff there's a chance the proc "lures" you into lower DPS. Even with small changes EITHER making it cost no TP or increasing the damage of that Straighter shot the trait as a whole would no longer feel like a possible DPS loss. I find it odd that you can argue that. Its not a huge thing either way but having good reactive playing skills shouldn't have the potential of negatively effecting you. There's nothing fun about that.

Only thing that bothers me of bard is the limit break. A heal? =_=; . . .

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Originally Posted by RonPierce

No, I know it's overall a bit of an increase. That wasn't my point. My point was on a situation by situation basis it can dip your dps versus boost it, and it just makes it not fun/uninteresting overall. In my opinion, good design would be made in such a way that reactive play would NEVER potentially dip your DPS, even if over a long period of time it's slightly beneficial.

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It doesn't really work like that though. In any case below 80% crit (RNG gods barring), using a Straighter Shot will be a DPS increase. It's not a potential DPS loss until you pass that threshold where your average Heavys equate to ~211% potency, which is over the max of a 100% Straight shot.

E: Messed up some numbers

You would need >80% crit chance to make Heavy Shot use outweigh the damage from Straight Shot

Look at it like this.

Straighter Shot - 210 Potency

Heavy Shot - X Potency (150+((crit/200)*150))
25% crit - 168.75 Potency
50% crit - 187.5 Potency
75% crit - 206.25 Potency
80% crit - 210 Potency
81% crit - 210.75 Potency
100% crit - 225 Potency

You might get the string of chain crits, but overall, until you break that 80% crit breakpoint, Straighter Shot will be a DPS increase.

Aren't Bards incredibly powerful still? I think they're fine as they are.

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Originally Posted by vRoad

You would need >60% crit chance to make Heavy Shot use outweigh the damage from Straight Shot

Look at it like this.

Straighter Shot - 210 Potency

Heavy Shot - X Potency (150+((crit/150)*150)
30% crit - 180 Potency
50% crit - 200 Potency
60% crit - 210 Potency
61% crit - 211 Potency
100% crit - 250 Potency

You might get the string of chain crits, but overall, until you break that 60% crit breakpoint, Straighter Shot will be a DPS increase.

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No, I know it's overall a bit of an increase. That wasn't my point. My point was on a situation by situation basis it can dip your dps versus boost it, and it just makes it not fun/uninteresting overall. In my opinion, good design would be made in such a way that reactive play would NEVER potentially dip your DPS, even if over a long period of time it's slightly beneficial.

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Originally Posted by AnkoYaoi

Aren't Bards incredibly powerful still? I think they're fine as they are.

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Don't quote me for truth on this, but I BELIEVE as weapons get stronger our DPS(scaling) goes downward and melees start to surpass us due to how slow our weapon damage scales, having the lowest physical damage weapons in the game and low potency attacks, and weapon damage scales at something like 1 PD = 10 primary stat = 40 secondary stats, at least that's what I've read.

add a ranged dmg LB and no one will even act like melee existed, /violin.

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Originally Posted by AjoraOak

add a ranged dmg LB and no one will even act like melee existed, /violin.

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I agree. TBH I think Bard should get an "Epic Volley" LB that's the same thing as Meteor but just more archerfish.

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Originally Posted by RonPierce

I feel Heavier Shot [Heavy shot has a 20% chance of making your next Straight Shot automatically Crit.] should be changed. Not because it's useless but because its both a dull and potentially harmful trait. Here's my reasoning:

Say Heavier shot procs:
You can do another Heavy shot, or Straight shot. If you:
Straight shot - you instantly crit, and refresh the buff.
If you Heavy shot - You can POTENTIALLY crit, and if that does crit you deal 10 potency more damage and saved 10 TP.

That said, generally procs mean an undoubted damage boost and something you should pretty much always be happy about, but in this case sometimes using your procs quickly (what I'd consider good/reactive play) can harm your damage... That's silly. Obviously in net it's probably a slight damage increase but for the potential that procs hurt your dps is just not very fun/exciting.

Suggestions I'd have made would be one of the following:
Either
[Heavier Shot - Heavy shot has a 20% chance to make your next Straight Shot deal 180 potency and automatically hit for critical damage.]
OR
[Heavier Shot - Heavy shot has a 20% chance to make your next Straight Shot automatically hit for critical damage and consumes no TP.]

I'm not here because Bards needs buffs or what ever, I'm just making the overall statement that this trait has a potential to be less DPS, which isn't very fun to deal with. Thanks!.)

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This is like saying you shouldn't invest in long term high interest money sources because you could spend the money on scratchies and get more.

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Originally Posted by Furious

This is like saying you shouldn't invest in long term high interest money sources because you could spend the money on scratchies and get more.

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This isn't banking... Its a Proc in an MMO. Using procs reactively should always benefit you because reactive gameplay is skill. RNG magically causing you to do less DPs by playing reactively is bad. That's not a fair comparison at all... For instance. Do you think people would be happy if Firestarter had a 20% chance to actually slow your dps? Heck no, people would be livid.

well to put it simply, as an example, 10% chance to crit vs 100% chance to crit... which one would you want to use right away?
we want instant gratification! just use the 100% crit chance ability that's available! win

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Originally Posted by Keslor

well to put it simply, as an example, 10% chance to crit vs 100% chance to crit... which one would you want to use right away?
we want instant gratification! just use the 100% crit chance ability that's available! win

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I'm not sure people are getting my point... Its not about the net. Its about the fact that playing well can actually hurt your dps. Just think about that sentence long enough and you'll understand why its a bad design. I'm not complaining about my DPS being low. Just the design of this. Think about the statement "Playing well can lower your dps in patches" and you will see why its bad. If you can't then the rest is out of my hands...

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Originally Posted by RonPierce

This isn't banking... Its a Proc in an MMO. Using procs reactively should always benefit you because reactive gameplay is skill. RNG magically causing you to do less DPs by playing reactively is bad. That's not a fair comparison at all... For instance. Do you think people would be happy if Firestarter had a 20% chance to actually slow your dps? Heck no, people would be livid.

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I don't even know why you're still posting. You have said multiple times you know it is an increase (you say a bit of an increase, but it's actually a lot of an increase). There are no realistic circumstances outside of heavy crit chance increase or extremely short time period where using heavy shot over straighter shot will be a dps increase. If you are worried about it being a potential dps loss over the course of 1 or 2 gcds, then you are thinking far, FAR too short term.

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Originally Posted by RonPierce

I'm not sure people are getting my point... Its not about the net. Its about the fact that playing well can actually hurt your dps. Just think about that sentence long enough and you'll understand why its a bad design. I'm not complaining about my DPS being low. Just the design of this. Think about the statement "Playing well can lower your dps in patches" and you will see why its bad. If you can't then the rest is out of my hands...

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Playing well over the course of any realistic time scale under realistic buff scenarios cannot lower your DPS. Or, more accurately, it can, but you'd best not stand outside in a thunderstorm either if it does.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Words.

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10-15% chance (your crit rate) a number that scales upward as you get better gear is the chances that it would hurt your dps... If you have Internal Release you're looking at about a 30-40% chance that you'd be lowering your DPS by using it. Come on now, don't throw this stuff around like I'm being unreasonable. 10% chance ALONE for a proc to be worse dps than your normal hit is terrible design dude... And its a proc that gets worse as you scale your crit chance with better armor...

Please don't buff the already best and most wanted dps class. I already hate being last pick cuz ya know mnk is meh to everyone. ^^

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Originally Posted by Lucipurr

Please don't buff the already best and most wanted dps class. I already hate being last pick. ^^

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Honestly, I wouldn't mind losing some potency on Heavy shot if they buffed the proc on Heavier Shot and made heavier shot increase the damage of Straighter shot but a reasonable amount (net the damage the same, just make Straighter Shot really stand out) and I'd be pleased as hell. In fact that'd make the job at least a LITTLE harder to play because missing/slow reacting to Straighter Shot procs would actually mean more. I'm not asking for buffs or a free ride. I just want the game to feel designed well... Everyone else in here has self interests and is just afraid of anything that sounds like a potential BARD buff, I'm not asking for that.

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Originally Posted by RonPierce

10-15% chance (your crit rate) a number that scales upward as you get better gear is the chances that it would hurt your dps... If you have Internal Release you're looking at about a 30-40% chance that you'd be lowering your DPS by using it. Come on now, don't throw this stuff around like I'm being unreasonable. 10% chance ALONE for a proc to be worse dps than your normal hit is terrible design dude... And its a proc that gets worse as you scale your crit chance with better armor...

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Again, you are looking at a GCD by GCD basis. Over the course of any given fight, it is a practical impossibility for using straighter shot procs to be a dps loss. The fact that it goes from "practically impossible" to "slightly more but still practically impossible" doesn't change things notably. You _ARE_ being unreasonable.

And finally, playing devil's advocate, let's say that your gear does reach a point where under internal release, heavy shot becomes a dps increase over straighter shot; it then becomes a measure of skill to know when to IGNORE procs rather than use them. Bad players will use straighter shots with much delay or not at all. Mediocre players will use all straighter shots. Great players will use straighter shots when it is a dps increase and ignore them when it is a dps loss.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Again, you are looking at a GCD by GCD basis. Over the course of any given fight, it is a practical impossibility for using straighter shot procs to be a dps loss. The fact that it goes from "practically impossible" to "slightly more but still practically impossible" doesn't change things notably. You _ARE_ being unreasonable.

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It's not unreasonable to expect reactive play to always be a good thing... Its all about how they weigh the numbers, read the post right before this one I'm quoting. There's nothing fun about reactive play that has a 10-40% chance (depending on buffs at the time) to slow your dps at ALL. Its just not a good design. It isn't. Like I said they could even nerf Heavy shot and move more of the net damage into Straighter shot, then:
-Straighter shot would always be beneficial.
-Reactive gameplay would be better.
-It would make playing Bard a little less easy or at least a little less forgiving (increased by how much of the damage is put into straighter shot)

We're talking about good design overall, not just how much dps is being pushed around. There's nothing fun or good designed about wondering if playing well is going to lower or benefit your dps this next shot. REGARDLESS of the net of it.

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Originally Posted by RonPierce

It's not unreasonable to expect reactive play to always be a good thing... Its all about how they weigh the numbers, read the post right before this one I'm quoting. There's nothing fun about reactive play that has a 10-40% chance (depending on buffs at the time) to slow your dps at ALL. Its just not a good design. It isn't. Like I said they could even nerf Heavy shot and move more of the net damage into Straighter shot, then:
-Straighter shot would always be beneficial.
-Reactive gameplay would be better.
-It would make playing Bard a little less easy or at least a little less forgiving (increased by how much of the damage is put into straighter shot)

We're talking about good design overall, not just how much dps is being pushed around. There's nothing fun or good designed about wondering if playing well is going to lower or benefit your dps this next shot. REGARDLESS of the net of it.

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You are talking entirely subjectively. There is nothing wrong with the current design; it is always going to be a net increase in dps in any realistic situation, which means that you should be doing it. Stop wondering if you are making the right choice "for the next shot", since you KNOW that you are making the right choice for your dps.

There is nothing wrong with some short term volatility in a rotation.

do you not use straight shot at all?

playing well as a bard can potentially lower your dps, but it's not because you use straight shot when it has the 100% crit chance proc available

you gotta refresh the crit buff eventually, you get 10 seconds to use that crit damage. So Im failing to see where the issue is other htan people being like shiney box must click. You can wait till you need to apply it and maximize time.