[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

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Originally Posted by Exstal

It's good to be skeptical. It's why I never believe a vast majority of Summoners want the class reworked. I'm not sure if you joined the game recently, or just the forums, but this SMN outcry is definitely far less the Warrior outcry. A class that was clearly and definitely weak as opposed to a class that is strong. Feelings aren't a good enough reason to rework what is established into something that it's not. Although, from stories I've heard, World of Warcraft did such a thing (except it made the class worse).

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Hi!
As a short introduction I started playing the game at the release of 2.0. Back then I played mainly scholar on Odin. Originally I wanted to play Summoner and I had high expectations of what the class could be but Summoner didn't end up what I hoped it was and I found myself enjoying playing Scholar a lot so I decided to switch. After about 2-3 months, I decided to take a break from the game (around then the standard week was pretty much AK/WP runs till I hit myth cap and outside that I helped out my FC with their Coil runs. After a months break I found that I didn't feel like returning so I quit playing the game. Then this summer I felt like playing again and I wanted to see what had come out in my absence so I started again but on a new server this time.
This ended up being longer than I thought :P

I don't mind people wanting the class to stay what it is but when those people harass other people for having a different opinion, I get angry.
I don't believe harassment has any place in this forum and I've only commented people who are blatantly mean to other people just for having a different opinion.

The problem with the Egis is they look cartoony and out of place next to the player as opposed to Carbuncle and Topaz.

The Summoner is suppose to be a Pet based Job but instead we got a Debuffer with a small dinky pet that we have very little interaction with. The Summoner is the template for how Pet Jobs are going to work in the future so everyone thinking that Beastmaster and Puppetmasters are going to be pet jobs with interesting mechanics will be disappointed. The Beastmaster will be a Marauder with a pet being used as an auto attack and the Puppet Master will be a Pugilists with a pet in the background.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The problem with the Egis is they look cartoony and out of place next to the player as opposed to Carbuncle and Topaz.

The Summoner is suppose to be a Pet based Job but instead we got a Debuffer with a small dinky pet that we have very little interaction with. The Summoner is the template for how Pet Jobs are going to work in the future so everyone thinking that Beastmaster and Puppetmasters are going to be pet jobs with interesting mechanics will be disappointed. The Beastmaster will be a Marauder with a pet being used as an auto attack and the Puppet Master will be a Pugilists with a pet in the background.

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I, myself don't really mind the size of the pet since a larger pet would create problems for other players by being in the way and when it comes to the visual representation, I couldn't care less.
One thing I do agree with you on is the fact that I would like more abilities that interact with the pet and less dotbased-damage.
For me it comes down to the fact that I don't like Arcanist and tho it's made to fit both Summoner and Scholar, in my opinion it fails on both accounts.(Summoner is adapted to fit Arcanist and not the other way around and Scholar hardly gets any useful abilities from Arcanist that they couldn't have gotten from cross-class anyway)
Although I'm not a fan of the current version of Arcanist/Summoner, I don't think it will affect other potential pet-based classes/jobs too much.

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

You pretty much take and replace ruin with Rouse, Spur, Enkindle and Shadowflare when fitting. Is that what you call a different playstyle?
Two of these abilities does pretty much the same thing which is a damage boost to your pet and one is a nuke that you can use once every five minutes.

Sure Miasma II, Shadowflare and Enkindle is a nice improvement to Summoners AOE capabilities but they hardly change the playstyle.

And if you want to invalidate my argument you might wanna add how these abilities make such a huge difference in playstyle. Just naming abilities isn't an argument in itself you know.

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The fact is that all of these abilities can and will also be used on single target under certain conditions as well as being used in AoE, therefore they can and will alter the playstyle depending on the situation, which is something that any remotely competent summoner will tell you. The fact that you claim:

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

I can promise that there's no bloody difference in playstyle between summoner lvl 40 and lvl 50

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speaks volume about your actual knowledge of the summoner class.

L40 SMN doesn't do anything with pet, L50 SMN needs to do stuff with pet or be a dead weight.

I don't really see an issue with the SMN job. It may not be what people expected or they may not like certain cosmetic aspects of it, but that doesn't really warrant a rework. Why would they rework a class that is strong? It doesn't really make sense.

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

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There is a difference in using SMN on the overworld and 4man content compared to using SMN in coil/ex primals

Also your other post about "replacing ruin with X other things", no if you replace Ruin with an off GCD buff you are losing DPS. Like a lot

my 2 cents:

the main problems im seeing here dont come form the summoner they come form the arcanist itself explained more deeply

first
arcanist itself does around 2/3 of the damage and pet does the 1/3 remaining (it may hurt say this but) that is mistake damage should be 50/50

Second
arcanist skills are no way related with your pet example, ruin will keep doing the same no mather the pet you pull out
and in my personal opinion that should be changed Ruin RuinII and miasma should be linked to the type of pet you are pulling out

As Example

Attacker pet
Ruin adn RuinII will cause +% extra damage and miasma will cause % total damge as instant when is cast <-- perfect for add burning

Caster pet
Ruin and ruinII will leave a dot will cause % extra damage over time (not affected by fester) miasma will cause % extra damage for each of the diseases over
the target (Ruin and RuinII dot will affect this) <--- perfect for boss fight

Guard pet
Ruin and ruin II will generate a shield that will prevent X damage to your pet Miasma will cause your pet will regenerate
heal when your pet cause damage the enemy over is duration <-- perfect for solo playing or emergency tanking

http://imgur.com/WBaIWda

this meter should show how damage will be handled color should be self explanatory

theres more stuff but im short time right now ill write it later

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Originally Posted by yorjen

my 2 cents:

arcanist itself does around 2/3 of the damage and pet does the 1/3 remaining (it may hurt say this but) that is mistake damage should be 50/50

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This is what will separate ACN from SMN, these are normal ACN numbers. Both ACN and SMN have access to one 30-second cooldown to increase their pet's numbers by 40%. SUMMONER has an additional 60-min cooldown that increases pet damage by 40%. I'm no mathematician but 40+40=80 and 80 is a significant boost. True these aren't constant numbers but part of what makes a good summoner is keeping these up unless you have a reason otherwise.

There has been some comments about how I'm wrong about how you can play summoner differently at lvl 50 compared to lvl 40. I'm still waiting for an actual argument explaining the difference though. I as a rational/skeptical person will not be convinced unless you do. I happily await your response. (Yes, I had to since you seem to ignore that part.)

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

There has been some comments about how I'm wrong about how you can play summoner differently at lvl 50 compared to lvl 40. I'm still waiting for an actual argument explaining the difference though. I as a rational/skeptical person will not be convinced unless you do. I happily await your response. (Yes, I had to since you seem to ignore that part.)

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It has been explained to you:

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Originally Posted by Dwill

The fact is that all of these abilities can and will also be used on single target under certain conditions as well as being used in AoE, therefore they can and will alter the playstyle depending on the situation

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Also your other post about "replacing ruin with X other things", no if you replace Ruin with an off GCD buff you are losing DPS. Like a lot

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You're just refusing to accept that you are totally wrong. They do say that ignorance is bliss so if you want to live in denial, be guest.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

It has been explained to you:




You're just refusing to accept that you are totally wrong. They do say that ignorance is bliss so if you want to live in denial, be guest.

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Not really... None of the comments actually describe the difference in enough detail nor give any reassurance whatsoever.
You're basically only tell me that there is a difference and you want me to trust your word without any confirmation.

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

Not really... None of the comments actually describe the difference in enough detail nor give any reassurance whatsoever.
You're basically only tell me that there is a difference and you want me to trust your word without any confirmation.

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You're the only person I've ever seen make the claim that there was no difference of playstyle between level 40 and level 50 so I'm not going to bother to explain every little detail to you because you refuse to believe what is widely available information and known facts about the job. The information can easily be found via a quick search on this very forum but if you want to still be in denial and refuse to acknowledge that you are totally in the wrong, be my guest.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

You're the only person I've ever seen make the claim that there was no difference of playstyle between level 40 and level 50 so I'm not going to bother to explain every little detail to you because you refuse to believe what is widely available information and known facts about the job. The information can easily be found via a quick search on this very forum but if you want to still be in denial and refuse to acknowledge that you are totally in the wrong, be my guest.

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So you have just proven that you feel free to harass people when you think they're wrong but don't care about actually explaining where they're wrong in a way so that they can learn...

The next time I see abusive behaviour from you, I will report it as harassment because that kind of behaviour does not belong in a forum.
Feel free to say what you want but if SE sends you a warning, you only got yourself to blame.
I will now leave you to your fight against people with a different opinion than you because, apparently according to you, they should not be allowed to speak their opinion in this forum.

Good day!

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

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How is Dwill being abusive? He, (or she) isn't singling you out with slander or abusive language. Dwill challenged your argument and attempted to prove you wrong. Quite frankly, Dwill is entirely correct. You're simply just being ignorant. The information that you want can be found in almost any major forum that deals with this game. This forum alone has a couple dozen threads on rotations and transitions from level to level on SMN.

Challenging opinions isn't harassment, it's called criticism. As for the warning you gave him, I would advise you to be careful how you post. Issuing threats is real harassment. You could get reported for it.

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

There has been some comments about how I'm wrong about how you can play summoner differently at lvl 50 compared to lvl 40. I'm still waiting for an actual argument explaining the difference though. I as a rational/skeptical person will not be convinced unless you do. I happily await your response. (Yes, I had to since you seem to ignore that part.)

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I don't believe there needs to be anyone who has to explain the difference to you. It's a simple test, take all the L41+ skills on your 50 SMN and remove them.

Play a few fights without them, then play a few fights with them. If you do not notice the difference it's not an issue of lack of difference, it's an issue of willful ignorance.

However, I'll tell you this now before you actually do the test; it's still a DoT based class. Hoping that it magically turns into a pet-only class would be a pipe dream.

Yes, I was very disappointed when I found out summoner was nothing more than a DoT job. Our egi may as well be a box that shoots a lazer every few seconds. It is quite sad the current state summoner is in. They shouldn't have even called it summoner honestly. Change the name and add a real summoner class.

Yes. I dislike the current smn's abilities.

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Originally Posted by MyMe

Yes.

Would love more focus on summons, rather than DOTS.

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Agree.

As a player of each Final Fantasy across the better part of two decades, I just have to say this: If you want to see how a fully pet Summoner plays, go to FFXI and play a Summoner and don't select a Sub Job. That's basically what happens.

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Originally Posted by Xaeth

So you have just proven that you feel free to harass people when you think they're wrong but don't care about actually explaining where they're wrong in a way so that they can learn...

The next time I see abusive behaviour from you, I will report it as harassment because that kind of behaviour does not belong in a forum.
Feel free to say what you want but if SE sends you a warning, you only got yourself to blame.
I will now leave you to your fight against people with a different opinion than you because, apparently according to you, they should not be allowed to speak their opinion in this forum.

Good day!

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That's a strawman if I ever saw one.

Your harassment accusation is pretty hilarious considering the only thing I did was discredit your claim. Nowhere have I even made any mentioned that people with a different opinion are not allowed to post. If anything, I actually agree that everyone should be able to voice their opinions freely but being able to do so doesn't mean that your opinion is free of criticism by any stretch of the imagination, even more so if you post on a public forum where multiple people with entirely different opinions also post.

Your empty threats (who are quite ironic as well) mean nothing to me as it just shows you can't take criticism which in the end, is not my problem.

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Originally Posted by Grandmasthong

Yes, I was very disappointed when I found out summoner was nothing more than a DoT job. Our egi may as well be a box that shoots a lazer every few seconds. It is quite sad the current state summoner is in. They shouldn't have even called it summoner honestly. Change the name and add a real summoner class.

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Summoners are actually different in multiple Final Fantasy games. Rydia for example is a Summoner with a wide array of Black Mage spells, Yuna is a White Mage with access to summons that dismisses your entire party, Eiko and Garnet are White Mages with summons to amplify their support role and to deal AoE damage. Final Fantasy VI, VII and VIII summons can be used by anyone.

With an ever growing amount of different take on the class itself, what a real summoner is is entirely subjective and based on one's own opinion as their is no true answer to that. You may not like Final Fantasy XIV's take on summoner but the fact remains unchanged, the Summoner in Final Fantasy XIV is a summoner, it's just a different take of the class itself.

Its funny how butt hurt people are simply because Summoner in this game doesn't play exactly like previous SMN's in other games or the egi's look funny. Sure the egi's are not the coolest looking things ever, but on a battle standpoint, it would be annoying if they had more form, covering the field and harder to see mechanics you need to dodge. The egi's designed right now are not simple aesthetic tastes from the devs.

Yes.

I don't think the play style should go away but summoner doesn't have a traditional or even appropriate emphasis on summoning. Spreading diseases just doesn't make sense thematically for the job.

You cant compare Final Fantasy XI with Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn gameplay because Final Fantasy XI was menu based and Final Fantasy XIV has an Action Bar. Summoner at lvl 40 and lvl 50 play the same because at its core its an Arcanists with Egis the dot play style is still front and center at lvl 50 Arcanists and Summoner have access to Miasma II, Spur and Enkinlde which is another Rouse on an 120cd and a 300s cd that commands the pet to do its signature ability and no other Summon commands.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

You cant compare Final Fantasy XI with Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn gameplay because Final Fantasy XI was menu based and Final Fantasy XIV has an Action Bar. Summoner at lvl 40 and lvl 50 play the same because at its core its an Arcanists with Egis the dot play style is still front and center at lvl 50 Arcanists and Summoner have access to Miasma II, Spur and Enkinlde which is another Rouse on an 120cd and a 300s cd that commands the pet to do its signature ability and no other Summon commands.

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If I can't compare FFXI and FFXIV then you can't make wild conjectures regarding Summoners from days of yore, nor compare them to pet classes from other games. Just saying

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Shay

If I can't compare FFXI and FFXIV then you can't make wild conjectures regarding Summoners from days of yore, nor compare them to pet classes from other games. Just saying

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Sadly people can't comprehend concepts without having some form of prior knowledge on the topic, something to compare and contrast, it's common psychology.

But regardless of what came before, the egis are lackluster and bore me to death sometimes, all the egis do for the summoner is have them require to press extra buttons to get the same dps as a blm, or anything else for that matter, it's nothing special, and it's not a real playstyle either, it's just a waste of a pet mechanic.

I love the idea of the summoner, so I took it to 50 and am still playing it, but really, It's not nearly as fun as it could be, and the egi's aren't NEARLY as cool as they could be, and I mean they COULD be better, while staying within the limits of an mmo, I promise.

If I was to contrast Final Fantasy XI and Final Fantasy XIV pet classes Final Fantasy XI had better pet class design but it was poorly tuned contrasted with this game while Final Fantasy XIV Pet class is poorly designed but tuned well around end game. Summoner as a Pet Based Job would work if they made the Pet stronger than the master, made it immune to all boss mechanics and gave the Summoner more commands like Enkindle which allows Egis to do Primal abilities.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

If I was to contrast Final Fantasy XI and Final Fantasy XIV pet classes Final Fantasy XI had better pet class design but it was poorly tuned contrasted with this game while Final Fantasy XIV Pet class is poorly designed but tuned well around end game. Summoner as a Pet Based Job would work if they made the Pet stronger than the master, made it immune to all boss mechanics and gave the Summoner more commands like Enkindle which allows Egis to do Primal abilities.

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Egi are vulnerable to boss mechanics? When did this happen? Seriously, most of the egi are immune to much that this game throws at them, or there are ways around it. E.g., place Garuda so the platform falls out from under her, no plumes to worry about. Briars do nothing to them in t6, shriek/voice does absolutely nothing to them in t7. These are all mechanics that will--and do--literally wipe parties.

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Originally Posted by MercuryD

Egi are vulnerable to boss mechanics? When did this happen? Seriously, most of the egi are immune to much that this game throws at them, or there are ways around it. E.g., place Garuda so the platform falls out from under her, no plumes to worry about. Briars do nothing to them in t6, shriek/voice does absolutely nothing to them in t7. These are all mechanics that will--and do--literally wipe parties.

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For your own sanity, I suggest you just ignore Akiza's suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

For your own sanity, I suggest you just ignore Akiza's suggestions.

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I have for most of the past year, every once and a while I have hope we can break through.

The problem with the Summoner in Final Fantasy XIV is the same with the class/job system in general they are not creative and they are oversimplified and boring because they are designed them around the average player skill instead of the potential of the class/job which causes people to either play this game as their secondary mmo just for raiding or quit all together and play some other MMO that has more complexity ie Elder Scrolls Online and Warframe cause they are fun.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The problem with the Summoner in Final Fantasy XIV is the same with the class/job system in general they are not creative and they are oversimplified and boring because they are designed them around the average player skill instead of the potential of the class/job which causes people to either play this game as their secondary mmo just for raiding or quit all together and play some other MMO that has more complexity ie Elder Scrolls Online and Warframe cause they are fun.

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How would rehashing SMN in XIV to be more like a SMN in another FF be MORE creative? I scarce say ESO is a good game and people probably aren't hanging around for the raids when the likes of WildStar is out which was developed with hard core players in mind.

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Originally Posted by FriendlyUncle

How would rehashing SMN in XIV to be more like a SMN in another FF be MORE creative? I scarce say ESO is a good game and people probably aren't hanging around for the raids when the likes of WildStar is out which was developed with hard core players in mind.

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Adding complexity to the Class/Job system add creativity and depth to the game and make it fun. Re designing the Summoner into an actual Pet Job is much more interesting then this Debuffer Job with a Pet as a after thought.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Adding complexity to the Class/Job system add creativity and depth to the game and make it fun. Re designing the Summoner into an actual Pet Job is much more interesting then this Debuffer Job with a Pet as a after thought.

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Q: Currently, the summoner job is a DoT-focused job, but I want them to be more of a pet-focused job. Are there any plans to change the design of the summoner job?

A: Having a debuffer role is important, so this would be difficult. When it comes to making the pet aspect flashier, regardless of whether we branch the job out more or add higher tier pets when the level cap is increased, a large gap in player skill will develop based on pet control. At launch there were many players who were starting their first MMORPG and we received a lot of feedback that controlling pets was difficult. We've made pets and companions as easy to use as possible, and we've made the system such that you can focus on controlling your pet without having to worry about their defense due to the fact that their parameters have been simplified. Because of this we would like to avoid making them exceedingly technical.

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How many times must you be told no until you finally get it ?

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Originally Posted by Dwill

How many times must you be told no until you finally get it ?

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They wont. You cant knock sense into someone that aint got the brains god gave a squirrel.

YES!!!

It seems simple enough to fix... my fix would be:

Let Summoner have its DoTs, just change their effectiveness- lower the damage and give status effects with it.
Bio should give the debuff of defense or attack down,
Miasma doesn't need a change, it already reduces incoming healing by 50% and a heavy effect as well
Bio II should give the debuff of magic defense or magic attack down

When summoning an Egi pet, a new bar should appear with multiple skills the egi obtains at different levels.
Garuda should have offensive magic power abilities, both AoE and single target
Titan should have defensive abilities, AoE stoneskin, Defensive buffs, and some earth magic.
Ifrit should have offensive pysical power abilities, as well as some fire based spells
etc, etc, add in Levi, Ramuh, and the soon to be Shiva. I'd suggest Levi get some balanced healing/protective spells as well as his watery and tail slapping attacks. Ramuh should have some AoE buffs to provide players with added layers of magical defense and magic attack, Shiva could do the enfeebling slows, stuns, silences, and cast ice magic from a safe distance.

Now, all these abilities would be on a separate bar, and you could leave it up to the pet to decide when to use them, or take control as is the system now.
Because I suggested the larger artillery and array of uses of these pets, I did suggest to tone down the DoTs of summoner to make up for this. Summoner should be lower consistent damage and high burst damage, imo.. sort of like FFXI. And at the same time, offer good utility. For this reasoning, I'd also like each Egi pet to offer a buff to party members near by, such as attack bonus from ifrit, accuracy bonus from shiva, spell/skill speed from garuda, etc. So while summoner might not have the highest dps, it would definitely enhance the party's damage output.


Spur should bring out the true primal form. A smaller scaled (could tone it down a bit, but definitely impress....) primal for 20-ish seconds. Empowered, and looking empowered. During this time, players should have access to their Enkindle ability. Allowing their pet to dish out a substantial burst of damage

My issue isn't the size of the pets, its that they look like they belong in a candy store - all bright and sparkles. Maybe its just me, but I want my character to look tough and intimidating with his summons out. Don't make them bigger, just make them look more like something that wants to eat you.

Get an ENB and turn it to brown

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Originally Posted by Dwill

How many times must you be told no until you finally get it ?

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They should lower the potency of dots and have the Summoner provide consistent damage and have the Pet provide bursts damage, party buffs and support.
Ifrit Egi - should have eight offensive physical abilities with some bursts Fire Based Abilities and provide increase attack damage to the party.
Titan Egi- should provide party wide defense buffs have eight physical abilities with some bursts Earth Based Abilities and provide a party defense ability called Titan shield.
Garuda Egi- should provide party wide attack speed buff have eight offensive magic abilities with Bursts AoE and single target Wind Based abilities and Magic buff ability called Eye of the Storm.

Egis should have the ability to take on its Primal form 20s (being able to take 10% damage from the boss hp). Players will still have access to Enkindle while having the empowered Pet allowing the Pet to do a Mega Nuke and after the 20s is up the Player gets locked from summoning for 2min.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

bleh

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You're not even trying anymore.